by Marilyn Manson


It is sad to think that the first few people on earth needed no books, movies, games or music to inspire cold-blooded murder. The day that Cain bashed his brother Abel's brains in, the only motivation he needed was his own human disposition to violence. Whether you interpret the Bible as literature or as the final word of whatever God may be, Christianity has given us an image of death and sexuality that we have based our culture around. A half-naked dead man hangs in most homes and around our necks, and we have just taken that for granted all our lives. Is it a symbol of hope or hopelessness? The world's most famous murder-suicide was also the birth of the death icon -- the blueprint for celebrity. Unfortunately, for all of their inspiring morality, nowhere in the Gospels is intelligence praised as a virtue.


A lot of people forget or never realize that I started my band as a criticism of these very issues of despair and hypocrisy. The name Marilyn Manson has never celebrated the sad fact that America puts killers on the cover of Time magazine, giving them as much notoriety as our favorite movie stars. From Jesse James to Charles Manson, the media, since their inception, have turned criminals into folk heroes. They just created two new ones when they plastered those dipshits Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris' pictures on the front of every newspaper. Don't be surprised if every kid who gets pushed around has two new idols.


We applaud the creation of a bomb whose sole purpose is to destroy all of mankind, and we grow up watching our president's brains splattered all over Texas. Times have not become more violent. They have just become more televised. Does anyone think the Civil War was the least bit civil? If television had existed, you could be sure they would have been there to cover it, or maybe even participate in it, like their violent car chase of Princess Di. Disgusting vultures looking for corpses, exploiting, fucking, filming and serving it up for our hungry appetites in a gluttonous display of endless human stupidity.


When it comes down to who's to blame for the high school murders in Littleton, Colorado, throw a rock and you'll hit someone who's guilty. We're the people who sit back and tolerate children owning guns, and we're the ones who tune in and watch the up-to-the-minute details of what they do with them. I think it's terrible when anyone dies, especially if it is someone you know and love. But what is more offensive is that when these tragedies happen, most people don't really care any more than they would about the season finale of Friends or The Real World. I was dumbfounded as I watched the media snake right in, not missing a teardrop, interviewing the parents of dead children, televising the funerals. Then came the witch hunt.


Man's greatest fear is chaos. It was unthinkable that these kids did not have a simple black-and-white reason for their actions. And so a scapegoat was needed. I remember hearing the initial reports from Littleton, that Harris and Klebold were wearing makeup and were dressed like Marilyn Manson, whom they obviously must worship, since they were dressed in black. Of course, speculation snowballed into making me the poster boy for everything that is bad in the world. These two idiots weren't wearing makeup, and they weren't dressed like me or like goths. Since Middle America has not heard of the music they did listen to (KMFDM and Rammstein, among others), the media picked something they thought was similar.


Responsible journalists have reported with less publicity that Harris and Klebold were not Marilyn Manson fans -- that they even disliked my music. Even if they were fans, that gives them no excuse, nor does it mean that music is to blame. Did we look for James Huberty's inspiration when he gunned down people at McDonald's? What did Timothy McVeigh like to watch? What about David Koresh, Jim Jones? Do you think entertainment inspired Kip Kinkel, or should we blame the fact that his father bought him the guns he used in the Springfield, Oregon, murders? What inspires Bill Clinton to blow people up in Kosovo? Was it something that Monica Lewinsky said to him? Isn't killing just killing, regardless if it's in Vietnam or Jonesboro, Arkansas? Why do we justify one, just because it seems to be for the right reasons? Should there ever be a right reason? If a kid is old enough to drive a car or buy a gun, isn't he old enough to be held personally responsible for what he does with his car or gun? Or if he's a teenager, should someone else be blamed because he isn't as enlightened as an eighteen-year-old?


America loves to find an icon to hang its guilt on. But, admittedly, I have assumed the role of Antichrist; I am the Nineties voice of individuality, and people tend to associate anyone who looks and behaves differently with illegal or immoral activity. Deep down, most adults hate people who go against the grain. It's comical that people are naive enough to have forgotten Elvis, Jim Morrison and Ozzy so quickly. All of them were subjected to the same age-old arguments, scrutiny and prejudice. I wrote a song called "Lunchbox," and some journalists have interpreted it as a song about guns. Ironically, the song is about being picked on and fighting back with my Kiss lunch box, which I used as a weapon on the playground. In 1979, metal lunch boxes were banned because they were considered dangerous weapons in the hands of delinquents. I also wrote a song called "Get Your Gunn." The title is spelled with two n's because the song was a reaction to the murder of Dr. David Gunn, who was killed in Florida by pro-life activists while I was living there. That was the ultimate hypocrisy I witnessed growing up: that these people killed someone in the name of being "pro-life."


The somewhat positive messages of these songs are usually the ones that sensationalists misinterpret as promoting the very things I am decrying. Right now, everyone is thinking of how they can prevent things like Littleton. How do you prevent AIDS, world war, depression, car crashes? We live in a free country, but with that freedom there is a burden of personal responsibility. Rather than teaching a child what is moral and immoral, right and wrong, we first and foremost can establish what the laws that govern us are. You can always escape hell by not believing in it, but you cannot escape death and you cannot escape prison.


It is no wonder that kids are growing up more cynical; they have a lot of information in front of them. They can see that they are living in a world that's made of bullshit. In the past, there was always the idea that you could turn and run and start something better. But now America has become one big mall, and because of the Internet and all of the technology we have, there's nowhere to run. People are the same everywhere. Sometimes music, movies and books are the only things that let us feel like someone else feels like we do. I've always tried to let people know it's OK, or better, if you don't fit into the program. Use your imagination -- if some geek from Ohio can become something, why can't anyone else with the willpower and creativity?


I chose not to jump into the media frenzy and defend myself, though I was begged to be on every single TV show in existence. I didn't want to contribute to these fame-seeking journalists and opportunists looking to fill their churches or to get elected because of their self-righteous finger-pointing. They want to blame entertainment? Isn't religion the first real entertainment? People dress up in costumes, sing songs and dedicate themselves in eternal fandom. Everyone will agree that nothing was more entertaining than Clinton shooting off his prick and then his bombs in true political form. And the news -- that's obvious. So is entertainment to blame? I'd like media commentators to ask themselves, because their coverage of the event was some of the most gruesome entertainment any of us have seen.


I think that the National Rifle Association is far too powerful to take on, so most people choose Doom, The Basketball Diaries or yours truly. This kind of controversy does not help me sell records or tickets, and I wouldn't want it to. I'm a controversial artist, one who dares to have an opinion and bothers to create music and videos that challenge people's ideas in a world that is watered-down and hollow. In my work I examine the America we live in, and I've always tried to show people that the devil we blame our atrocities on is really just each one of us. So don't expect the end of the world to come one day out of the blue -- it's been happening every day for a long time.


MARILYN MANSON
(May 28, 1999)

This confirms what I thought about this guy : he's pretty clever. I really appreciated in "Bowling for Comumbine" when he was asked by Michael Moore "If you had something to tell to the kids who committed this crime, what would it be ? " and he answered "I would listen to them".

WOW. I have a whole new respect for this guy.

Maralyn Manson is incredibly intelligent. I've always had a lot of respect for him, especially after seeing bowling for columbine. theres a reason kid like him so much, he really really gets it.

I quoted this recently, actually. While I dispise his music, his message is a damn good one.

Yeah I really can't stand his music but he seems like a great guy.

Yeah I really can't stand his music
Who can?

Originally posted by Blibblob
Yeah I really can't stand his music
Who can?

I can, I love his music and all of the other fans that have gotten all of his albums in the top 5 on the Billboard charts...and in the top 10 worldwide.

;)

I read this statement to mean that all people are ultimately responsible for their OWN actions.
If this is the statement I agree 100%.
I am so tired of hearing people blame external conditions for their own bad choices in life.
You are that which you choose to be.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
I read this statement to mean that all people are ultimately responsible for their OWN actions.
If this is the statement I agree 100%.
I am so tired of hearing people blame external conditions for their own bad choices in life.
You are that which you choose to be.

i'm not sure that's exactly what he means. He advocates the idea than, rather than accusing the real problems, people tend to find scapegoats.

"I think that the National Rifle Association is far too powerful to take on, so most people choose Doom, The Basketball Diaries or yours truly"

The kids were responsible for their acts. But that does not mean that nothing should be done in order to prevent more dramas.

Any new thoughts on this from new posters?

The guy has a genius IQ, I would expect no less. Ive always had respect for him, he does what he wants and doesnt give a crap what others think. What happens is what you make happen, your not made to do anything.

The guy has a genius IQ
I agree.

I don't care for most on mansons's main work, but I am completely impressed with his work for the soundtrack of resident evil.

I also agree he is intelligent, and has some good points of view... i'm gonna read through real quick and just give my thoughts:



It is sad to think that the first few people on earth needed no books, movies, games or music to inspire cold-blooded murder. The day that Cain bashed his brother Abel's brains in, the only motivation he needed was his own human disposition to violence.

Nah, it was jealousy


Whether you interpret the Bible as literature or as the final word of whatever God may be, Christianity has given us an image of death and sexuality that we have based our culture around.

I couldnt disagree more... christianity is taboo to our society today, sexual imagary comes from the secular side, and death is everywhere.


America puts killers on the cover of Time magazine, giving them as much notoriety as our favorite movie stars. From Jesse James to Charles Manson, the media, since their inception, have turned criminals into folk heroes.

Much agreed... the wrong people are looked up to in today's society. And if not looked up to, they are given attention, which is what they are probably desperately seeking.



We applaud the creation of a bomb whose sole purpose is to destroy all of mankind, and we grow up watching our president's brains splattered all over Texas. Times have not become more violent. They have just become more televised. Does anyone think the Civil War was the least bit civil? If television had existed, you could be sure they would have been there to cover it, or maybe even participate in it, like their violent car chase of Princess Di. Disgusting vultures looking for corpses, exploiting, fucking, filming and serving it up for our hungry appetites in a gluttonous display of endless human stupidity.

Agreed... Media only exposes and gives a closer view to what has already happened for years. The thing we can't do is act like these things have never happened before, when they have, they just have never been so media-applicable.



When it comes down to who's to blame for the high school murders in Littleton, Colorado, throw a rock and you'll hit someone who's guilty. We're the people who sit back and tolerate children owning guns, and we're the ones who tune in and watch the up-to-the-minute details of what they do with them.

I don't know of anyone who tolerates children owning guns, however, i know that many parents' ignorance or laziness allows it to happen.


I think it's terrible when anyone dies, especially if it is someone you know and love. But what is more offensive is that when these tragedies happen, most people don't really care any more than they would about the season finale of Friends or The Real World.

I have often held the belief that once you die, after all the people around you, that generation, dies... you are merely a statistic, nobody knows who you REALLY were, and you pretty much never existed.


I was dumbfounded as I watched the media snake right in, not missing a teardrop, interviewing the parents of dead children, televising the funerals. Then came the witch hunt.

The media IS heartless.. we all know that, slaves to the almighty dollar.



Man's greatest fear is chaos. It was unthinkable that these kids did not have a simple black-and-white reason for their actions. And so a scapegoat was needed. I remember hearing the initial reports from Littleton, that Harris and Klebold were wearing makeup and were dressed like Marilyn Manson, whom they obviously must worship, since they were dressed in black. Of course, speculation snowballed into making me the poster boy for everything that is bad in the world. These two idiots weren't wearing makeup, and they weren't dressed like me or like goths. Since Middle America has not heard of the music they did listen to (KMFDM and Rammstein, among others), the media picked something they thought was similar.

Glad to see the other side of the story.. i remember hearing media blame you(marylin Manson) for it.. and i remember laughing to myself about how moronic that line of reasoning is, even if they DID do it "in your name".



Isn't killing just killing, regardless if it's in Vietnam or Jonesboro, Arkansas?

That's too broad... there is malice, there is ignorance, there is accidental death, etc.


Why do we justify one, just because it seems to be for the right reasons?

A death is mostly justified because they either want to kill someone else, or want to harm innocent human beings.


If a kid is old enough to drive a car or buy a gun, isn't he old enough to be held personally responsible for what he does with his car or gun? Or if he's a teenager, should someone else be blamed because he isn't as enlightened as an eighteen-year-old?

He IS old enough, i would say.



America loves to find an icon to hang its guilt on. But, admittedly, I have assumed the role of Antichrist; I am the Nineties voice of individuality, and people tend to associate anyone who looks and behaves differently with illegal or immoral activity. Deep down, most adults hate people who go against the grain. It's comical that people are naive enough to have forgotten Elvis, Jim Morrison and Ozzy so quickly. All of them were subjected to the same age-old arguments, scrutiny and prejudice. I wrote a song called "Lunchbox," and some journalists have interpreted it as a song about guns. Ironically, the song is about being picked on and fighting back with my Kiss lunch box, which I used as a weapon on the playground. In 1979, metal lunch boxes were banned because they were considered dangerous weapons in the hands of delinquents. I also wrote a song called "Get Your Gunn." The title is spelled with two n's because the song was a reaction to the murder of Dr. David Gunn, who was killed in Florida by pro-life activists while I was living there. That was the ultimate hypocrisy I witnessed growing up: that these people killed someone in the name of being "pro-life."

people will always be out to get you mr. manson.. however, on the surface those title's and words in your song suggest some pretty f'd up stuff. You can't blame them for thinking that on the surface, did you write your deep down feelings of why you wrote the song on your CD label?



The somewhat positive messages of these songs are usually the ones that sensationalists misinterpret as promoting the very things I am decrying. Right now, everyone is thinking of how they can prevent things like Littleton. How do you prevent AIDS, world war, depression, car crashes? We live in a free country, but with that freedom there is a burden of personal responsibility. Rather than teaching a child what is moral and immoral, right and wrong, we first and foremost can establish what the laws that govern us are. You can always escape hell by not believing in it, but you cannot escape death and you cannot escape prison.

I think having "morals".. promotes positive attitudes, actions, and effects.. whether you believe in hell or not.


It is no wonder that kids are growing up more cynical; they have a lot of information in front of them. They can see that they are living in a world that's made of bullshit. In the past, there was always the idea that you could turn and run and start something better. But now America has become one big mall, and because of the Internet and all of the technology we have, there's nowhere to run.

So true, however, some people merely like the image of a world full of bullshit, and while they might have all the information in front of them, they may have never looked at it.


People are the same everywhere.

100% agreed

Sometimes music, movies and books are the only things that let us feel like someone else feels like we do. I've always tried to let people know it's OK, or better, if you don't fit into the program. Use your imagination -- if some geek from Ohio can become something, why can't anyone else with the willpower and creativity?
[/QUOTE]
Creativity is a lost art. Nowadays in music, for example, people start a band based on what they think other people will like, not just on plainly what they are.



I chose not to jump into the media frenzy and defend myself, though I was begged to be on every single TV show in existence. I didn't want to contribute to these fame-seeking journalists and opportunists looking to fill their churches or to get elected because of their self-righteous finger-pointing.

Good, it's glad to see you stand up for yourself.


They want to blame entertainment? Isn't religion the first real entertainment? People dress up in costumes, sing songs and dedicate themselves in eternal fandom.

Religion is something people choose to believe in, like i said earlier, it's taboo. If i walk up to a bunch of kids and say "hey! I'm into Jesus".. they will all look at each other and say "what a dork!"...


Everyone will agree that nothing was more entertaining than Clinton shooting off his prick and then his bombs in true political form. And the news -- that's obvious. So is entertainment to blame? I'd like media commentators to ask themselves, because their coverage of the event was some of the most gruesome entertainment any of us have seen.

The media wants to capture footage of soldiers dying, but won't drop the camera to help that soldier.. that is sad indeed.



I think that the National Rifle Association is far too powerful to take on, so most people choose Doom, The Basketball Diaries or yours truly. This kind of controversy does not help me sell records or tickets, and I wouldn't want it to. I'm a controversial artist, one who dares to have an opinion and bothers to create music and videos that challenge people's ideas in a world that is watered-down and hollow. In my work I examine the America we live in, and I've always tried to show people that the devil we blame our atrocities on is really just each one of us. So don't expect the end of the world to come one day out of the blue -- it's been happening every day for a long time.

Very cynical view mr. Manson.. but some good points. You ARE a controversial artist... and i think you enjoy that. I think you could become LESS controversial and still give the same message if you didn't hide your meanings so deep down underneath all the f'd up lyrics. You can say "i want to rape you!!" .. and most people will think you endorse raping.. reguardless of if there is some story deep down that caused you to write that verse, and it actually has nothing to do with rape.

Nice piece by Mansion OD. As I was reading it, I can see how some days I am part of the solution and on other days, I am part of the problem.

i must have a.d.d. i read part of the 1st post n lost interest.2 many words

As I was reading it, I can see how some days I am part of the solution and on other days, I am part of the problem.
Very good point Sal. I do admit I give killers just as much fame, if not more, then people who do good in the world.

Very good point Sal. I do admit I give killers just as much fame, if not more, then people who do good in the world.
WTF are you up for, OD? You doing coke? ::Ahem::

WTF are you up for, OD? You doing coke? ::Ahem::
It says my post was made at 11:11 pm. That isn't very late, is it? But maybe I'm reading it wrong. Anyway, I do admit that I stay up late. I think I have insomnia.

Columbine is Bush's fault!




by Marilyn Manson


It is sad to think that the first few people on earth needed no books, movies, games or music to inspire cold-blooded murder. The day that Cain bashed his brother Abel's brains in, the only motivation he needed was his own human disposition to violence. Whether you interpret the Bible as literature or as the final word of whatever God may be, Christianity has given us an image of death and sexuality that we have based our culture around. A half-naked dead man hangs in most homes and around our necks, and we have just taken that for granted all our lives. Is it a symbol of hope or hopelessness? The world's most famous murder-suicide was also the birth of the death icon -- the blueprint for celebrity. Unfortunately, for all of their inspiring morality, nowhere in the Gospels is intelligence praised as a virtue.


A lot of people forget or never realize that I started my band as a criticism of these very issues of despair and hypocrisy. The name Marilyn Manson has never celebrated the sad fact that America puts killers on the cover of Time magazine, giving them as much notoriety as our favorite movie stars. From Jesse James to Charles Manson, the media, since their inception, have turned criminals into folk heroes. They just created two new ones when they plastered those dipshits Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris' pictures on the front of every newspaper. Don't be surprised if every kid who gets pushed around has two new idols.


We applaud the creation of a bomb whose sole purpose is to destroy all of mankind, and we grow up watching our president's brains splattered all over Texas. Times have not become more violent. They have just become more televised. Does anyone think the Civil War was the least bit civil? If television had existed, you could be sure they would have been there to cover it, or maybe even participate in it, like their violent car chase of Princess Di. Disgusting vultures looking for corpses, exploiting, fucking, filming and serving it up for our hungry appetites in a gluttonous display of endless human stupidity.


When it comes down to who's to blame for the high school murders in Littleton, Colorado, throw a rock and you'll hit someone who's guilty. We're the people who sit back and tolerate children owning guns, and we're the ones who tune in and watch the up-to-the-minute details of what they do with them. I think it's terrible when anyone dies, especially if it is someone you know and love. But what is more offensive is that when these tragedies happen, most people don't really care any more than they would about the season finale of Friends or The Real World. I was dumbfounded as I watched the media snake right in, not missing a teardrop, interviewing the parents of dead children, televising the funerals. Then came the witch hunt.


Man's greatest fear is chaos. It was unthinkable that these kids did not have a simple black-and-white reason for their actions. And so a scapegoat was needed. I remember hearing the initial reports from Littleton, that Harris and Klebold were wearing makeup and were dressed like Marilyn Manson, whom they obviously must worship, since they were dressed in black. Of course, speculation snowballed into making me the poster boy for everything that is bad in the world. These two idiots weren't wearing makeup, and they weren't dressed like me or like goths. Since Middle America has not heard of the music they did listen to (KMFDM and Rammstein, among others), the media picked something they thought was similar.


Responsible journalists have reported with less publicity that Harris and Klebold were not Marilyn Manson fans -- that they even disliked my music. Even if they were fans, that gives them no excuse, nor does it mean that music is to blame. Did we look for James Huberty's inspiration when he gunned down people at McDonald's? What did Timothy McVeigh like to watch? What about David Koresh, Jim Jones? Do you think entertainment inspired Kip Kinkel, or should we blame the fact that his father bought him the guns he used in the Springfield, Oregon, murders? What inspires Bill Clinton to blow people up in Kosovo? Was it something that Monica Lewinsky said to him? Isn't killing just killing, regardless if it's in Vietnam or Jonesboro, Arkansas? Why do we justify one, just because it seems to be for the right reasons? Should there ever be a right reason? If a kid is old enough to drive a car or buy a gun, isn't he old enough to be held personally responsible for what he does with his car or gun? Or if he's a teenager, should someone else be blamed because he isn't as enlightened as an eighteen-year-old?


America loves to find an icon to hang its guilt on. But, admittedly, I have assumed the role of Antichrist; I am the Nineties voice of individuality, and people tend to associate anyone who looks and behaves differently with illegal or immoral activity. Deep down, most adults hate people who go against the grain. It's comical that people are naive enough to have forgotten Elvis, Jim Morrison and Ozzy so quickly. All of them were subjected to the same age-old arguments, scrutiny and prejudice. I wrote a song called "Lunchbox," and some journalists have interpreted it as a song about guns. Ironically, the song is about being picked on and fighting back with my Kiss lunch box, which I used as a weapon on the playground. In 1979, metal lunch boxes were banned because they were considered dangerous weapons in the hands of delinquents. I also wrote a song called "Get Your Gunn." The title is spelled with two n's because the song was a reaction to the murder of Dr. David Gunn, who was killed in Florida by pro-life activists while I was living there. That was the ultimate hypocrisy I witnessed growing up: that these people killed someone in the name of being "pro-life."


The somewhat positive messages of these songs are usually the ones that sensationalists misinterpret as promoting the very things I am decrying. Right now, everyone is thinking of how they can prevent things like Littleton. How do you prevent AIDS, world war, depression, car crashes? We live in a free country, but with that freedom there is a burden of personal responsibility. Rather than teaching a child what is moral and immoral, right and wrong, we first and foremost can establish what the laws that govern us are. You can always escape hell by not believing in it, but you cannot escape death and you cannot escape prison.


It is no wonder that kids are growing up more cynical; they have a lot of information in front of them. They can see that they are living in a world that's made of bullshit. In the past, there was always the idea that you could turn and run and start something better. But now America has become one big mall, and because of the Internet and all of the technology we have, there's nowhere to run. People are the same everywhere. Sometimes music, movies and books are the only things that let us feel like someone else feels like we do. I've always tried to let people know it's OK, or better, if you don't fit into the program. Use your imagination -- if some geek from Ohio can become something, why can't anyone else with the willpower and creativity?


I chose not to jump into the media frenzy and defend myself, though I was begged to be on every single TV show in existence. I didn't want to contribute to these fame-seeking journalists and opportunists looking to fill their churches or to get elected because of their self-righteous finger-pointing. They want to blame entertainment? Isn't religion the first real entertainment? People dress up in costumes, sing songs and dedicate themselves in eternal fandom. Everyone will agree that nothing was more entertaining than Clinton shooting off his prick and then his bombs in true political form. And the news -- that's obvious. So is entertainment to blame? I'd like media commentators to ask themselves, because their coverage of the event was some of the most gruesome entertainment any of us have seen.


I think that the National Rifle Association is far too powerful to take on, so most people choose Doom, The Basketball Diaries or yours truly. This kind of controversy does not help me sell records or tickets, and I wouldn't want it to. I'm a controversial artist, one who dares to have an opinion and bothers to create music and videos that challenge people's ideas in a world that is watered-down and hollow. In my work I examine the America we live in, and I've always tried to show people that the devil we blame our atrocities on is really just each one of us. So don't expect the end of the world to come one day out of the blue -- it's been happening every day for a long time.


MARILYN MANSON
(May 28, 1999)

Oh yeah fyi:

A song named "Cassie" by Flyleaf (a band im currently listeing to) is based on the girl named Cassie who was asked if she believed in god by one of those guys, she said yes and was killed for it, right after another girl had been killed by answering yes to the same question. A moving song, good band too.

she said yes and was killed for it, right after another girl had been killed by answering yes to the same question.
Take that, whore!

:rolleyes:

Take that, whore!

:rolleyes:

cmon now....

i can admire someone whom is literaly staring death in the face yet remains faithful, even if im not a christian.

cmon now....

i can admire someone whom is literaly staring death in the face yet remains faithful, even if im not a christian.
The :rolleyes: are indicative that I am in admiration of her, not disdain. What those boys did was disgusting.

A song named "Cassie" by Flyleaf (a band im currently listeing to) is based on the girl named Cassie who was asked if she believed in god by one of those guys, she said yes and was killed for it, right after another girl had been killed by answering yes to the same question.

So......would it be logical to thank Kliebold and Harris for helping to speed along these two "faithful" believers entrance into 'Heaven'........???

In reality, of course, had eiher of them had the slightest inkling that they could have said "No" and lived, they'd both no doubt be alive and well today.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As to MM, long ago I read his autobiography, "The Long Hard Road Out of Hell" and was very impressed by his views. Not to mention the fact that in terms of my liking his music, he is near the top of the list.

I disagree FT.

Harris and Klebold shot one boy, Isiah Shoales, in the Columbine Library merely because he was black...another boy was mercilessly gunned down at his desk still clutching a pencil. He'd not had a chance to say anything.

These two boys were out to kill as many as possible that day, religious background irrespective, as noted previously on these boards.

They hated everyone, but mostly, they hated themselves.

These two boys were out to kill as many as possible that day, religious background irrespective, as noted previously on these boards.
That might be true, but why would they bother asking that question about God then?

Joking...when they first went into the library, they told all the guys wearing certain hats ("jock" hats) to stand up.

They hated jocks, the popular, the religious, blacks, hispanics, gays, the retarded, their parents, and others who I'm probably leaving out.

I disagree FT.

Harris and Klebold shot one boy, Isiah Shoales, in the Columbine Library merely because he was black...another boy was mercilessly gunned down at his desk still clutching a pencil. He'd not had a chance to say anything.

You evidently misunderstood what I said.

I was NOT in any way suggesting that had they said "no", they would not have been shot.

What I was trying to get across was that if the situation had been such that by saying "no" they could have avoided being shot, and if they had known they could say "no" and not be shot, they would have said "no".

These two boys were out to kill as many as possible that day, religious background irrespective, as noted previously on these boards.

I agree completely rendova. What I said before does not contradict that fact.

So......would it be logical to thank Kliebold and Harris for helping to speed along these two "faithful" believers entrance into 'Heaven'........???

In reality, of course, had eiher of them had the slightest inkling that they could have said "No" and lived, they'd both no doubt be alive and well today.


Well look at it this way FT, if I were a POW, and my captors killed my comerade for claminig his allegence to the US, then came to me asking my allegence, I would say it was to the US as well. People believe in what they believe and faith and/or honor like that is an admirable quality in my opinion. Blind faith however is another matter. Perhaps the first girl that said yes to the god question didnt know she would be killed for saying yes. But Cassie, the second girl knew for a fact that she would be killed for saying yes. But if she had said no, she would be totally going against what she believed.

And no, I dont think anyone thanked Kleibold or Harris for killing them.

FT,

I say this to you because I care about you. Seriously, I do.

You can take it with a grain of salt, or not, it's up to you.

I will not respond to anything more on this subject. (You might not want to waste your time writing any response, in fact, you don't have to waste your time reading any further if you don't want to)

The fact remains,

What you and I believe does not change what is. There will be a day when you know what is, and what is not.

This life on Earth is not the end, it is just the begining.

You are a man who requires evidence in order to believe in anything.

You might say that you have very little faith. But in fact you have plenty of faith. You have faith in the chair you are sitting in. That chair was built by a human, or a machine.

You have faith in your own human heart and brain. Those complex items was designed by God. There is a God, there is a life after death.

You will believe this one day. You may mark the words of Almighty God.

You will bow to Him. I promise you will. Don't believe it now, its fine.

You will believe. I hope you beieve before you die, so you may see people

like my father from Earth, and my Gradmother. Really Really I do.

You will believe.


So......would it be logical to thank Kliebold and Harris for helping to speed along these two "faithful" believers entrance into 'Heaven'........???

In reality, of course, had eiher of them had the slightest inkling that they could have said "No" and lived, they'd both no doubt be alive and well today.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As to MM, long ago I read his autobiography, "The Long Hard Road Out of Hell" and was very impressed by his views. Not to mention the fact that in terms of my liking his music, he is near the top of the list.

So......would it be logical to thank Kliebold and Harris for helping to speed along these two "faithful" believers entrance into 'Heaven'........???

In reality, of course, had eiher of them had the slightest inkling that they could have said "No" and lived, they'd both no doubt be alive and well today.

that depends on whether or not your defined "reality" is the entire picture or just merely what you can interpret...

If there IS an afterlife.. those who die in the name of God will be smiled upon... however, even the greatest apostles denied God's name.

Stop looking at the bible and start looking at science, yea i said it, science.. for proof that we don't know what our reality is and that a "heaven" or afterlife might exist.

After all... luminous matter in the universe only makes up about 20% of the mass... now i know guys with pieces of paper who qualify them as scientists can come up with a "tooth fairy" guess that "dark matter" and "dark energy", made out of unknown particles and molecules, exist as the other 80%.. but what if it's just something we can't comprehend?... what if it's where we go when we die?

There is a God, there is a life after death.

You will believe this one day. You may mark the words of Almighty God.

You will bow to Him. I promise you will.

It is laughable to hear you tell me I will "bow" to your little invisible friend some day, when your only reason for thinking it is that said "god" happens to be the "god" that you have chosen to believe in.

The fact is, you and I are both atheists, pal.

There have been 10,000 "gods" invented by mankind.

You disbelieve in 9,999 of them. You are firmly convinced that those 9,999 are "false" gods.

My list of **gods I do not believe in** simply has one more "god" on it than your list does.

The true God is the only God who died for the sins of mankind. Then he rose.

I can't prove that He exists. I can say that creation is more likley than a blob expolding and so the universe came into existance.

Just Wait. I will say nothing more about this in this thread.




It is laughable to hear you tell me I will "bow" to your little invisible friend some day, when your only reason for thinking it is that said "god" happens to be the "god" that you have chosen to believe in.

The fact is, you and I are both atheists, pal.

There have been 10,000 "gods" invented by mankind.

You disbelieve in 9,999 of them. You are firmly convinced that those 9,999 are "false" gods.

My list of **gods I do not believe in** simply has one more "god" on it than your list does.

It is laughable to hear you tell me I will "bow" to your little invisible friend some day, when your only reason for thinking it is that said "god" happens to be the "god" that you have chosen to believe in.

The fact is, you and I are both atheists, pal.

There have been 10,000 "gods" invented by mankind.

You disbelieve in 9,999 of them. You are firmly convinced that those 9,999 are "false" gods.

My list of **gods I do not believe in** simply has one more "god" on it than your list does.
Your little argument is too cute (here I go engaging in "dismissal by label").

The fact that he doesn't believe in 9,999 out of 10,000 gods leaves a residue of one that he does believe in, so he is not an atheist. Disbelief in some particular god is not the definition of atheism.

The true God is the only God who died for the sins of mankind. Then he rose.

I can't prove that He exists. I can say that creation is more likley than a blob expolding and so the universe came into existance.

Just Wait. I will say nothing more about this in this thread.
You shouldn't avoid talking about your belief in God, just because there are cynics lurking about.

I wonder why it is that you think a creation event is more likely than the universe coming into existence through the operation of natural processes. To me the latter seems far more likely.

Or all the God's are the same God... one almighty divine power

Or all the God's are the same God... one almighty divine power
What you say raises a question in my mind--would an overarching "mind" or only "purpose" in the universe, without "being" or "personality" still be "God?"

I think about the personal God of the Semitic religons, and it makes no sense. An infinite being who knows past and future, eternal in time, all powerful and so on would not "do" things. Anything this being "did" would have already been "done." The only think it could "do" would be to exist.

Also, being perfect, it could only do the perfect thing--it would have no freedom to do less, or be less. Therefore its existence would be entirely constrained in a motionless, changeless existence of perfection.

The Tao is often pictured as such a thing: universal purpose or mind--not a being or "person," but a presence, unchanging, forceful. Indian belief is similar without the mind--the universal cause and effect of karma.

I wonder why it is that you think a creation event is more likely than the universe coming into existence through the operation of natural processes. To me the latter seems far more likely.
No kidding. The former only seems "more" plausible to simple-minded folk.

Or all the God's are the same God... one almighty divine power
I'm more inclined to thinking along those lines, Decka. I'm certainly not a religious person (actually, I freaking loath organized religion), but I've personally experienced things that I firmly believe have NO explanation. I'm definitely an agnostic.

The human eye is far far too complex to have evolved by a blob.

Evolution was invented long before Micro Bioligy.

What keeps the heart beating??

My answer is that God or my Spirit keeps my hear beating. How would you answer that question?

You shouldn't avoid talking about your belief in God, just because there are cynics lurking about.

I wonder why it is that you think a creation event is more likely than the universe coming into existence through the operation of natural processes. To me the latter seems far more likely.

What keeps the heart beating??

Mawwiage. Mawwiage is what bwings us togethew today. Mawwiage, that bwessed awwangement, that dweam within a dweam. And wove, twue wove, wiww fowwow you fowevah and evah… So tweasuwe youw wove…

:D

Please go back to your planet, we don't understand you here.


Mawwiage. Mawwiage is what bwings us togethew today. Mawwiage, that bwessed awwangement, that dweam within a dweam. And wove, twue wove, wiww fowwow you fowevah and evah… So tweasuwe youw wove…

:D

Mawwiage. Mawwiage is what bwings us togethew today. Mawwiage, that bwessed awwangement, that dweam within a dweam. And wove, twue wove, wiww fowwow you fowevah and evah… So tweasuwe youw wove…

:D

LOL, 100% correct--one of the reasons we've been hitched almost 26 years.

That, and lots, lots, lots of jewelry.
:o

That, and lots, lots, lots of jewelry.
:o
Ahh - the honest woman speaks...

What you say raises a question in my mind--would an overarching "mind" or only "purpose" in the universe, without "being" or "personality" still be "God?"

I think about the personal God of the Semitic religons, and it makes no sense. An infinite being who knows past and future, eternal in time, all powerful and so on would not "do" things. Anything this being "did" would have already been "done." The only think it could "do" would be to exist.

Also, being perfect, it could only do the perfect thing--it would have no freedom to do less, or be less. Therefore its existence would be entirely constrained in a motionless, changeless existence of perfection.

The Tao is often pictured as such a thing: universal purpose or mind--not a being or "person," but a presence, unchanging, forceful. Indian belief is similar without the mind--the universal cause and effect of karma.

or

God made perfect beings, and saw that perfection was pretty boring, and allowed, yes, ALLOWED sin into the world in order to "see what happens".... an "experimental controlled science project" if you will... to see if humans on their own could keep a relationship with him and not be completely run over by sin.

If you follow the bible, i'm not saying it's fact but yet i'll still mention it, before the big flood there were giants all over the earth. A whole different civilization, but God destroyed them because of how sinful and corrupt they were. Maybe he tried once allowing sin, saw it failed, and just tried it again:


GENESIS 6: 6-8
The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the ground, man and beast and creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them." But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

GENESIS 6: 11-13
Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight, and the earth was filled with violence. And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth. And God said to Noah, "I have determined to make an end of all flesh; for the earth is filled with violence through them; behold, I will destroy them with the earth.


So, I would assume mankind is doing a bit better this time around, but still doomed unless God has mercy on ya.

However, I think it is very well possible that we all pray and all believe in the same God.

God made perfect beings, and saw that perfection was pretty boring, and allowed, yes, ALLOWED sin into the world in order to "see what happens".... an "experimental controlled science project" if you will... to see if humans on their own could keep a relationship with him and not be completely run over by sin.
How can you propose such a notion with a straight face? There's a glaring contradiction in your logic (and don't worry, you're not alone - I've been told the same thing by other pietistic folk in my church), so here's a question for you....why would an infallible, all-knowing, deity "experiment" with anything - especially his own creation? It's a paradox.

I think he'd experiment with us for his own entertainment.

How can you propose such a notion with a straight face? There's a glaring contradiction in your logic (and don't worry, you're not alone - I've been told the same thing by other pietistic folk in my church), so here's a question for you....why would an infallible, all-knowing, deity "experiment" with anything - especially his own creation? It's a paradox.

That is assuming he knows the future, knows the past, and is all-seeing all knowing.

I think EVEN IF HE KNOWS.... he tests us. If we don't turn to him today, maybe we will tomorrow. IMO he knows every outcome to every situation. BUT, are you as a person ready to take a step toward God? THAT is the question, and it's one that he already knows, but he wants YOU to make the step, not him just control you like a puppet master.

You want a paradox?

Could God create a rock he couldn't pick up?

I think EVEN IF HE KNOWS.... he tests us.
MMmkay... :confused:

One has to wonder what that accomplishes, but whatever....

MMmkay... :confused:

One has to wonder what that accomplishes, but whatever....

I highly doubt any human can comprehend how God works...

try telling that to the athiests though.. they think they have God all figured out.

That's like the pawn on a chess board trying tell the player looking over the board how to play the game.

The problem we face as a country is that we give these loner, depressed, suicidal, shunned, outcasts a claim to fame by glorifying or giving attention to them in a way that is sickening. We give them what they want, a claim to fame. They aren't going anywhere in life, they hate their life, they hate the world, and no one knows them. So why not shoot up a school, at least they'll be infamous for something. And America is more then willing to give them what they want.

Manson's piece is more then right on in this instance, again.

The media is a slithering, fucked up, insensitive, cobra...

You should have heard the reporters jabbering out and DEMANDING answers during the Virginia sheriff's press conference...

it's almost as if these people have no souls.. i don't care if it pays the bills, being so bold and so pesky, demanding, and ignorant when information is limited and emotions are running high is not worth the money...

I'd say reporters are on about the same level as the tube-like submarine that squirts out of my ass after a big meal.