I just discovered this forum (and the fact that there are forums on the internet) today so here's my quick 2 cents. Lately I made the observation that the majority of college students and professors tend to be "liberal" or "socialist", however one might define the terms. Conservatives seem to be baffled by this. How can intelligent people possibly put stock in such a "hypocritical" and "doomed to fail" system? Well, my thought is that leftist theory is superior to rightist theory. Leftist theory advocates feeding the poor, helping the less fortunate, and other very nice sounding things. Rightist theory seems to advocate heartless competition and survival of the fittest (at least the economic part of it). The problem arises when these theories are placed in the real world. Leftist works (welfare, affirmative action quotas, the USSR) have failed because of people's fallibilities (to put it simply). Rightist works (jungle economy, Hong Kong) have allowed people to flourish and eliminate true "poverty" (where starvation is defined as not getting needed nourishment as opposed to not getting to eat at the Red Lobster every night). I agree with some earlier posting about how some people become socialist because they realized they've been idiots with their lives and now want the smart people to pick up their slack for them but I think that's mostly a minority.

it's truly surprising that I am the only one who has responded to this post. But there is a huge difference between a liberal who believes in capitalism/market economy and a socialist. I am a liberal who was for welfare reform but I want to puke that "conservatives" allow us taxpayers' money to go to corporate welfare. Talk about socialism! If you conservatives believe so much (as I do) in capatilism- then corporations should compete in the market like anybody else. It's not heartless competition when the government gives corporations money- not loan- but gives- on the dole. Oh, and by the way- those so called smart conservatives, you know- the crooks like those at Enron, can keep their limited intelligence and sunstandard morals and out of my hard earned money. I have no doubt that my IQ supercedes yours.

Well, just so you know, I'm a libertarian and I, like you, think that government "welfare" to corporations is also wrong. I'm not sure if that makes me "conservative" or not (I prefer the 2 dimensional model with Democrats on the left, Republicans on the right, authoritarians on the top, and libertarian/anarchists on the bottom). Basically I believe in a VERY limited government (in my social and economic life) but I'm not as hardcore into libertarianism as some of the others. I dunno, still trying to figure out exactly what I think about certain things such as government funded national parks and environmentalism (I'm a huge outdoors person). As for the IQ thing, I think adding personal insults to an argument, especially when that "argument" has nothing to do with my original post, devalues the argument overall, wouldn't you say? If it makes you feel better about yourself, you can go ahead and pretend that you're Stephen Hawking for all I care.

i think that terms like 'conservative' and 'liberal' have lost their meaning. to me, it's an inadequate way of describing how complex public policy is. depending on the issue, my views could range from what is described as 'far right' to 'far left.' i think it would be really stupid to be partisan and side with the GOP no matter what, or stand by the Democrats no matter the issue. I hate it when a Democrat criticizes Bush for something that their party does, or vice versa.

The whole idea of a 'political spectrum' is to me a meritless attempt to simplify the multi-dimensional space of political choices into a single dimension. This manifests itself when a person like-minded on one issue is encouraged to adopt the other issues of the group. So for instance, if you happen to be pro-choice, the Democrats will also want you to be pro-affirmative action, pro-progressive taxation, etc etc. What do these issues have to do with one another? Absolutely nothing. The same phenomenon can be seen in the Republican party. If you think taxes are too high, you will also be expected to be pro-life, support vouchers for private schools, as well as favor a well-funded military budget, so on and so forth. The fallacy of such a 'spectrum' is readily observable when the adherents of such a system are forced to assign widely divergent systems points on the spectrum to such similar ideologies as fascism and communism (far right in the former, far left in the latter) when in fact they have more in common with each other than they do with the political thought assigned to nearby points of the spectrum.

[quote:cb4056ab67]Rightist theory seems to advocate heartless competition and survival of the fittest[/quote:cb4056ab67]

Rightist theory advocates personal responsibility -- something that pinkos like yourself want no part of.

Personal responsibilty includes caring for others something capitalism does not care for I mean look at the great depression for instance.

CY maybe we should look at you and how you do not want to help a poor white guy like me, I mean appearently you don't want to help me get my DSL or even a car, I work hard and try to help others but you just dont want to help me you seem to be a bit of a liar to me...

[quote:9037641962="ConfusedYouth"]Personal responsibilty includes caring for others something capitalism does not care for I mean look at the great depression for instance.[/quote:9037641962]

So if some idjit screws up his life getting himself addicted to some drug, it is my responsibility to get that low-life going again? Get real.

Do you know why one would become addicted to a drug. Must you know what goes through ones head or a reason why they became to do that drug. Many become addicted due to drugs because there depressed or stressed and it rids of it for a couple of hours.

Socialism is not to get a drug addict off drugs it's intended to give homeless and all low paid decent money so they can feed them selves and there children. Socialism is to give everyone a job and make decent wages it has nothing to do with saving a drug addicts life thats his choice whether or not he want to shoot white shit up his nose.

You're confused when it comes to alternative ideas to capitalism. There are many who can barely feed there child yet your contempt living in a capitalist society. Many Enron employees lost money due to the inability of there bosses to do whats righthanks to them they will end up working low paying jobs all thanks to capitalism. Many lost millions of dollars. There are many homeless whom have been laid off and have been enable to find a decent paying job so they become homeless thanks to capitalism. All socialism does is insures one will have a job whether and they make decent money I dont see t anything wrong with that. In fact any rational person shouldnt.

[quote:4898a648bd="ConfusedYouth"]Do you know why one would become addicted to a drug. Must you know what goes through ones head or a reason why they became to do that drug. Many become addicted due to drugs because there depressed or stressed and it rids of it for a couple of hours. [/quote:4898a648bd]

Oh, holy cow. So now society should take responsibility for them being on the drug in the first place. Look, buddy, there is no... NO... excuse for using drugs. No one is accountable for that other than the one who takes the drugs. I knew a ton of doped up fools in high school who's lives will go up in a puff of smoke because they wanted to "have a little fun" with extasy, cocaine, pot, whatever. You liberals have an excuse for every bad behavior in the book.

Do we actully know what goes through the mind of a drug addict? Have we sat down and heard the story of every drug addict? You seem to be using drug addicts as a way to defend capitalism. I've known several persons whom don't consume drugs yet left school and are now pushing carts at the local super market.

For example I've had friends whom went to college and graduated with a degree and have been enable to find jobs. One of them has a child to feed and is living off his part time Toys R Us pay check which is barely enough to live off. If we lived with Socialism he would have a decent job and would have money to offord for his child and family without worries.

Why must are society show fear when speaking of Socialism. We show fear in change because we fear change so much where not willing to even try Socialism.

[quote:4153825c71]Do we actully know what goes through the mind of a drug addict? Have we sat down and heard the story of every drug addict? You seem to be using drug addicts as a way to defend capitalism. I've known several persons whom don't consume drugs yet left school and are now pushing carts at the local super market.[/quote:4153825c71]

See, that's the problem with you pinkos -- you want to understaaaaand everyone. That can get you in trouble. It's like being sympathetic to the enemy (which you also do). C'mon -- there's no excuse for drug use, period.

And I'm not using it to defend capitalism, Im using it to show how conservatives advocate personal responsibility.

If a man is fired from his job he is under so much stress that he begins to use drugs to relieve that pain now you might go draw and relieve stress but we are all different and handle situations differently.

I don't think I have an enemy. I stand with the people of the world not the country I live in. I'm not able to advocate violence towards anyone and now that makes me a "communist” or "liberal" but any rational person would agree with me. These are pro-peace ideas what is so "anti-establishment" about that. I'm amazed that you would even question an individual whom would rather show love and compassions towards those whom show obvious difference and don't advocate killing at any cost.

Guess what.... Socialist also care for personal responsibility and yet show compassion towards others whom are in need of help. When did helping others become a crime?

[quote:5c294afdc8="ConfusedYouth"]If a man is fired from his job he is under so much stress that he begins to use drugs to relieve that pain now you might go draw and relieve stress but we are all different and handle situations differently.
[/quote:5c294afdc8]

Oh so now drug use is okay as long as that is the best method for a particular person to deal with stress. If I feel like taking a snort of cocaine is the best way to "relax" and I get addicted and screw up my life, I should get government funded assistance because I had "no other choice." Hogwash.

I do not have a problem with helping people. People that need AND deserve it. If you need help because you did something stupid, then get help from friends and family -- not the taxpayers.

Now we have done what many do and put words into my mouth. I never said drug use was okay or even tolerated. Drug use around the world is a toppling numbers people do it in the dozens and with that comes higher crime rates which includes murder and stealing and rape and the list could go on. You speak of living in a better world but you're not willing to devote your time or money to make this world a better place so by that we will live in the same shit until people actually do begin to help others so we can live in a more peaceful and humane era.

Guess what you flow a majority of your tax dollars into anti-drug campaigns that allows addicts to seek treatment. So lets all go bitch to the United States government because your tax dollars might save someone’s life!

[quote:49f1856ece="ConfusedYouth"]Now we have done what many do and put words into my mouth. I never said drug use was okay or even tolerated. Drug use around the world is a toppling numbers people do it in the dozens and with that comes higher crime rates which includes murder and stealing and rape and the list could go on. You speak of living in a better world but you're not willing to devote your time or money to make this world a better place so by that we will live in the same shit until people actually do begin to help others so we can live in a more peaceful and humane era.

Guess what you flow a majority of your tax dollars into anti-drug campaigns that allows addicts to seek treatment. So lets all go bitch to the United States government because your tax dollars might save someone’s life![/quote:49f1856ece]

Whoa, there buddy -- treatment is a good way to spend my money (so is paying for them to live in the slammer)! I want those morons off of the stuff! What I don't want to do is just hand them a check because their dopey life has been ruined and they need financial help because of it.

Should they really go do jail or seek treatment? By sending them to jail there still able to feed there addiction so if you do really want them off drugs the slammer is a bad idea. I've seen several inmates on a Varity of shows claim its quite simple to smuggle drugs in jail.

Still in a Socialist society they would work for there check but the idea of Socialism is to make sure everyone has a job and that they can tend to there needs and also have a luxury once in a while. The idea of Socialism is so that people don't work 14 hours a day and make slave wages (There are people whom still work 2 or 3 jobs and get little money). The idea is to give people basic hours and make enough to support there lively hood.

[quote:8b36bed832="DaveTooner"]Oh so now drug use is okay as long as that is the best method for a particular person to deal with stress. If I feel like taking a snort of cocaine is the best way to "relax" and I get addicted and screw up my life, I should get government funded assistance because I had "no other choice." Hogwash.

I do not have a problem with helping people. People that need AND deserve it. If you need help because you did something stupid, then get help from friends and family -- not the taxpayers.[/quote:8b36bed832]

It is so obvious you know very little about drug use/abuse, and trust ignorance isn't bliss, especially when it hurts your debate so badly.

I hate to sound so harsh, but I feel that you should really know what you're talking about before you open your mouth. And please, just answer me, what good does it do society to allow its members to die of drug use? By not helping our fellow man we hurt ourselves. Drug education is one of the best ways to help cut down on crimes of all kinds, unwanted pregnancy, homelessness, and many other social problems. It seems like a very productive use of tax money to me, as it helps us ALL.

[quote:b0706a7567="DaveTooner"]
Whoa, there buddy -- treatment is a good way to spend my money (so is paying for them to live in the slammer)! I want those morons off of the stuff! What I don't want to do is just hand them a check because their dopey life has been ruined and they need financial help because of it.[/quote:b0706a7567]

It costs more money to keep drug users in jail than it does to offer treatment.

Also, why should a person be put in jail for, say, smoking a joint occasionally? My son was watching 'Cops' on TV the other day and they were busting people for buying marijuana. The people being arrested were in nice cars, dressed as if they were on their lunch break or something, and one lady even asked the police to please not arrest her because she had kids and a husband. That lady, in particular, had only purchased two joints.

These "criminals" did not look like dangerous people to me. In fact, judging by the situation taking place, where the police were arresting them (in a nicer neighborhood), and the appearance that they had been to work that day, it seemed they were productive individuals. It just seemed very wrong to ruin a person's reputation for such a victimless crime.

We have to be careful about putting people into boxes. No one is completely "bad." Who knows, had you had a less supportive family, grown up in a neglectful impoverished enviroment, you may have turned out to be one of these evil drug users you are speaking so harshly of.

Oh great... now we have people claiming DRUGS should be legal. Oh that is fabulous, just wonderful!

If you don't want to go to jail for doing drugs, it's real simple -- don't use the damn stuff! (excuse me). You guys act like drugs are neccessary and people can't help that they use them. What a load of crap!

Look, I'm not worried how much it costs to police drug users. Why don't we just get the best of both worlds -- keep them in a seperate facility (either within a prison or build other facilities) for both containing drug bums and for getting them off of the garbage. Then either they could have to stay for a sentence or they could stay until the folks in charge there think they are ready to go. That way there would be punishment (confinement) and aid (rehabilitation). There's a compromise for you, but I'm sure you liberals will balk at it.

[quote:171a903509]Who knows, had you had a less supportive family, grown up in a neglectful impoverished enviroment, you may have turned out to be one of these evil drug users you are speaking so harshly of.[/quote:171a903509]

I love how you liberals try to rationalize everyone's actions (unless that someone is rich). If I turned out to be a drug user, I would have made a mistake just like anyone else who BREAKS THE LAW does. I should not recieve special treatment because I made a STUPID mistake. If it is rehab, fine. Good. But there has to be some punishment is there as well.

I don't agree with drug use but if one feels the need to smoke a joint and it makes them happy why not? It’s there body not yours or mine or anybody else’s. Take Europe for instance because of legalizing certain drugs most drug use has went down a long with crime.

Most drug dealers deal because they have family to support and because of this shitty system we live with-in it's the only way the can care for them selves and family. I don't see wrong doing in that if it's the only way they can feed there child.

I know you care because it's your tax dollars that are spent sending them to jail. If we sent them to a rehab clinic it would be cheaper and your tax dollars could be spend of efficiently than throwing someone in jail for selling a joint. A great percentage of drug dealers make up our jails if we simply send them to rehab it imagine the money we save.

[quote:5b063f1d64="DaveTooner"]Oh great... now we have people claiming DRUGS should be legal. Oh that is fabulous, just wonderful![/quote:5b063f1d64]

Actually, I never said that drugs should be legal. I just stated that it seemed very wrong to ruin someone for buying a couple of joints.

Can you clarify why you think someone should go to jail for smoking a joint? Research does not show that. Studies show devastating rates of addiction and many social problems arrising from other drug use, but not marijuana. Your claims on this topic are not backed by anything but your own opinion.

[quote:5b063f1d64="DaveTooner"]If you don't want to go to jail for doing drugs, it's real simple -- don't use the damn stuff! (excuse me). You guys act like drugs are neccessary and people can't help that they use them. What a load of crap![/quote:5b063f1d64]

Then why are we failing in the war on drugs? Why do people keep using drugs? We all use drugs to some extent whether it be legal usage or not. Most of us drink a beer occasionally and many of us smoke cigarettes.

Look around -- we are losing the battle because people want to use drugs.

History shows us a great lesson about prohibition and why it fails.

[quote:5b063f1d64="DaveTooner"]Look, I'm not worried how much it costs to police drug users. Why don't we just get the best of both worlds -- keep them in a seperate facility (either within a prison or build other facilities) for both containing drug bums and for getting them off of the garbage. Then either they could have to stay for a sentence or they could stay until the folks in charge there think they are ready to go. That way there would be punishment (confinement) and aid (rehabilitation). There's a compromise for you, but I'm sure you liberals will balk at it.[/quote:5b063f1d64]

It is a compromise, and your ideas are not all bad. However, I'm just not sure that I agree with incarcerating drug users. I'm not talking about drug users who have turned to violence or drug dealers, I am talking about the guy who smokes a couple of joints in his own home on the weekend to relax.

It is not an easy problem to solve.

[quote:5b063f1d64="DaveTooner"]I love how you liberals try to rationalize everyone's actions (unless that someone is rich). If I turned out to be a drug user, I would have made a mistake just like anyone else who BREAKS THE LAW does. I should not recieve special treatment because I made a STUPID mistake. If it is rehab, fine. Good. But there has to be some punishment is there as well.[/quote:5b063f1d64]

I have a problem with victimless crimes being grounds for punishment. I have a problem with an adult being punished for doing something that harms absolutely no one but his/herself.

The world is not black and white enough to lable people so easily as stupid or bad. Not everyone fits so neatly into these boxes you would like to put them.

ConfusedYouth you bring up many good points. I don't use illegal drugs either, but I don't feel I have the right to push my way of life on everyone.

I worry about the guy who goes to jail for using marijuana and comes out ruined, unable to get a job, and turns to selling bigger more deadly drugs he learned about while in jail.

[quote:bd006ff92a]I know you care because it's your tax dollars that are spent sending them to jail. If we sent them to a rehab clinic it would be cheaper and your tax dollars could be spend of efficiently than throwing someone in jail for selling a joint. A great percentage of drug dealers make up our jails if we simply send them to rehab it imagine the money we save.
[/quote:bd006ff92a]

I already said, I'm not concerned with my tax money when it comes to FIGHTING drug use. I just don't want welfare checks handed to some guy who is poor and can't get a job because cocaine ruined his life.
Which you liberals are gung ho about. If they are poor, give 'em cash! No background check needed!

[quote:bd006ff92a]Can you clarify why you think someone should go to jail for smoking a joint? Research does not show that. Studies show devastating rates of addiction and many social problems arrising from other drug use, but not marijuana. Your claims on this topic are not backed by anything but your own opinion[/quote:bd006ff92a]

Not too many people go to jail for having a joint and I never said they should. Well, maybe a hefty fine, and a few days in the slammer to show 'em what it's like if they start moving up the great drug ladder. But seriously, everyone thinks marijuana is harmless. I can give you plenty of examples of how it is harmful if you'd like.

[quote:bd006ff92a]Then why are we failing in the war on drugs? Why do people keep using drugs?[/quote:bd006ff92a]

First of all because the war on drugs needs an overhaul! Second of all, because people make stupid decisions.

[quote:bd006ff92a]I have a problem with victimless crimes being grounds for punishment. I have a problem with an adult being punished for doing something that harms absolutely no one but his/herself.[/quote:bd006ff92a]

Well to start with, drugs ALTER the MIND. People do screwed up stuff when they are on cocaine, heroin, whatever. It isn't totally "victimless"

You liberals preach day in and day out on government responsibility and how they need to protect the people! yet you think I should be able to go shoot up and not be punished. Priceless.

[quote:eeb63badec]Well to start with, drugs ALTER the MIND. People do screwed up stuff when they are on cocaine, heroin, whatever. It isn't totally "victimless" [/quote:eeb63badec]

Yet in Europe where most drug use is legal crime has dropped since legalizing it. Alcohol also alters the mind yet it's sold nearly everywhere.

[quote:eeb63badec]You liberals preach day in and day out on government responsibility and how they need to protect the people! yet you think I should be able to go shoot up and not be punished. Priceless.[/quote:eeb63badec]

What does protecting people do with personal choice. A person has a right to do what they please to there body and if there happy smoking a joint as sad as it is well than let them do it. I know several people who consume drugs yet take care of personal responsibility heck there finishing college.

[quote:009616e792]Yet in Europe where most drug use is legal crime has dropped since legalizing it. Alcohol also alters the mind yet it's sold nearly everywhere. [/quote:009616e792]

I get so sick of this argument. If you use alcohol responsibly, you don't get drunk. If you use drugs (yes, even marijuana!) "responsibly" you get high 9 times out of 10. That is the difference.

Personally I don't touch the stuff.

Oh yeah, CY, what do you think about other drugs like heroin, cocaine, ecstacy... etc. Should they be legal as well?

I've posted this before but it may answer your question...

Yes, it's true. I'm straight edge. But I'm not straight edge as in "I'll kick your ass if you're not straight edge." I'm straight edge for my self. I have a lot of friends who drink and use drugs and that's ok with me if that is what they want to do, it's just not something that I do. Why did I never have any interest getting fucked up? It's basically a little different and at the same time over lapping for me, but here's the over all reasons all lopped together: First of all, if you're trying to lead or be involved in any kind of a social revolution(whether it's toppling over a government or (in my case) trying to change the way people act by opening their minds up to new ideas) it's very hard to do if you're consumed with where your next fix is coming from.(whether it be cigarettes or beer, or something a lot more hard core like cocaine or heroine.)

Second, the idea of paying for addiction just strikes me as being simply stupid! Why would we want to give these huge companies money to hook me on shit that hurts us?!?! If someone came along and told me I had to inhale toxic fumes for 1 hour everyday I'd tell them to fuck off! So why the fuck would I want to smoke cigarettes? It's like letting yourself be suckered!

Third, it just seems very counter revolutionary. If the goal is to stop huge corporations that hurt people and our environment then why would I want to support cigarette and alcohol companies that are owned by people who would kill their mother to make an extra dime?

Fourth, I've had friends and family who have really been fucked up bad by drugs or alcohol. That first hand exposure to the destruction of what those substances can do has taught me a lesson.

Finally, the most simple explanation is that I've found better things to do with my free time! I'd rather play an instruments, or write a letter, or write a song, or skate, etc... than get fucked up.

Look, if you do use drugs or drink or whatever, I don't look at you and think "you're a terrible person!" This is just an explanation of why I don't. And I probably contradict some of these explanations with other things I do in life so don't get the idea that I think I'm perfect! In the end our community is of countless people with different ideas who all do different things. I'd rather set the differences aside and focus on the issues we agree on rather than argue over whether doing drugs is a good or bad thing.

[quote:c72c53691e="DaveTooner"]
I just don't want welfare checks handed to some guy who is poor and can't get a job because cocaine ruined his life.
Which you liberals are gung ho about. If they are poor, give 'em cash! No background check needed![/quote:c72c53691e]

Actually, Dave, our government WAS giving welfare cheques to people with addictions. The highest percentage going to people addicted to alcohol. That doesn't happen anymore under the new welfare reform plan... Guess who was in office when that took place? I'll give you a clue, it wasn't a Republican.

[quote:c72c53691e="DaveTooner"]Not too many people go to jail for having a joint and I never said they should. Well, maybe a hefty fine, and a few days in the slammer to show 'em what it's like if they start moving up the great drug ladder. But seriously, everyone thinks marijuana is harmless. I can give you plenty of examples of how it is harmful if you'd like.[/quote:c72c53691e]

Please do show me these examples. I do hope that by "examples" you mean actual research, studies and statistics. I will gladly show my "examples," as well.

[quote:c72c53691e="DaveTooner"]First of all because the war on drugs needs an overhaul! Second of all, because people make stupid decisions.[/quote:c72c53691e]

That's not a very specific answer. What sort of "overhaul" do you suggest?

[quote:c72c53691e="DaveTooner"]Well to start with, drugs ALTER the MIND. People do screwed up stuff when they are on cocaine, heroin, whatever. It isn't totally "victimless"[/quote:c72c53691e]

Now you're avoiding my points. I have never taken up for people doing violent acts or commiting crimes while using drugs. In fact, my examples include a wife and mother being arrested for buying two joints and a man smoking a joint on the weekend in the privacy of his home.

I've also pointed out that studies show many social problems stemming from cocaine and heroine use -- I said that this was not true of marijuana use.

By the way, alcohol also alters the mind -- should we outlaw that, too?

[quote:c72c53691e="DaveTooner"]You liberals preach day in and day out on government responsibility and how they need to protect the people! yet you think I should be able to go shoot up and not be punished. Priceless.[/quote:c72c53691e]

To be honest, you, the self-proclaimed conservative here, are the one talking about people making stupid decisions and how we need to build new prisons to house more drug users and not allow people to make choices about drug use. It seems it is the Conservatives who want government running our lives -- drug use is not the only topic where I find this to be so.

[quote:b93a1febc5]That doesn't happen anymore under the new welfare reform plan... Guess who was in office when that took place? I'll give you a clue, it wasn't a Republican.[/quote:b93a1febc5]

lol... tell me another one. The most recent statistic says that 70% of all people on welfare have a substance abuse program.

[quote:b93a1febc5]That's not a very specific answer. What sort of "overhaul" do you suggest?[/quote:b93a1febc5]

To be honest, I have not a clue. I don't know exactly what they are doing, but I'd say cutting off the source. Lets burn these stupid poppy fields in Afghanistan, do more against these columbian drug lords, and tighten up the border.

[quote:b93a1febc5]Please do show me these examples. I do hope that by "examples" you mean actual research, studies and statistics. I will gladly show my "examples," as well.[/quote:b93a1febc5]

Yeah, well this stuff wasn't just "made up" but I can't actually cite specific sources, like medical journals -- I don't read 'em, so sue me. If you still want to hear them, let me know, but I don't think you'll take me seriously. However for every person that says that marijuana has X effect on the body, there is another person that says that isn't true. But to me it really isn't about health effects.

[quote:b93a1febc5]Now you're avoiding my points. I have never taken up for people doing violent acts or commiting crimes while using drugs.[/quote:b93a1febc5]

No, but you defend their right to use the drugs. If they are using the drugs, they can't really help it, now can they?


[quote:b93a1febc5]In fact, my examples include a wife and mother being arrested for buying two joints and a man smoking a joint on the weekend in the privacy of his home.[/quote:b93a1febc5]

I'd say a nice little fine, and some community service.


[quote:b93a1febc5]By the way, alcohol also alters the mind -- should we outlaw that, too?[/quote:b93a1febc5]

I just answered that in my last post.

[quote:b93a1febc5]To be honest, you, the self-proclaimed conservative here, are the one talking about people making stupid decisions and how we need to build new prisons to house more drug users and not allow people to make choices about drug use. It seems it is the Conservatives who want government running our lives -- drug use is not the only topic where I find this to be so.[/quote:b93a1febc5]

Limiting government doesn't mean we don't want certain laws. If we didnt, we'd be anarchist punks.

[quote:941371a2a4="DaveTooner"]lol... tell me another one. The most recent statistic says that 70% of all people on welfare have a substance abuse program.[/quote:941371a2a4]

Again, you're missing my point (not sure if that is intentional or not). Before the reform, people could draw welfare for having a drug abuse problem. In other words, the system treated alcoholism/drug abuse as a disease that disallowed many people to hold study employment. That doesn't happen anymore.

[quote:941371a2a4="DaveTooner"]To be honest, I have not a clue. I don't know exactly what they are doing, but I'd say cutting off the source. Lets burn these stupid poppy fields in Afghanistan, do more against these columbian drug lords, and tighten up the border.[/quote:941371a2a4]

Thanks for the honest answer.

By the way, I don't know about other drugs, but most marijuana is grown here in the US.

[quote:941371a2a4="DaveTooner"]Yeah, well this stuff wasn't just "made up" but I can't actually cite specific sources, like medical journals -- I don't read 'em, so sue me. If you still want to hear them, let me know, but I don't think you'll take me seriously. However for every person that says that marijuana has X effect on the body, there is another person that says that isn't true. But to me it really isn't about health effects.[/quote:941371a2a4]

I'm not questioning your sincerety, but I do question whether you are right about some of the statements you've made, especially about marijuana use.

If you don't want to talk about this topic from the side of research, at least allow me to ask you this -- If the health problems that arrise from smoking marijuana, which are very real, are your only problem with its usage, why do you feel that consenting adults choosing to smoke the stuff should be punished? I mean, isn't their health their business?

[quote:941371a2a4="DaveTooner"]No, but you defend their right to use the drugs. If they are using the drugs, they can't really help it, now can they?[/quote:941371a2a4]

I don't think you really realize how marijuana or alcohol effect the body. There have never been any links to violence caused by marijuana use, however, that is not the case with alcohol. And while I would never condone anyone driving while under the effects of any substance, did you know that you are more likely to wreck if you are driving while drunk than you are if you smoke a joint? It takes a great deal of marijuana to slow down the reflexes, where as there is a noticable difference after drinking just one beer.

[quote:941371a2a4="DaveTooner"]I'd say a nice little fine, and some community service.[/quote:941371a2a4]

Yes, but why?

[quote:941371a2a4="DaveTooner"]I just answered that in my last post.[/quote:941371a2a4]

And I think you need to learn more about how these drugs you are discussing actually effect the body.

[quote:941371a2a4="DaveTooner"]Limiting government doesn't mean we don't want certain laws. If we didnt, we'd be anarchist punks.[/quote:941371a2a4]

I agree that anarchy is not the way for us to go, but I will never understand or condone laws that punish adults for hurting no one, except perhaps, themselves. That to me is a choice we should be free to make.

[quote:13e2115d82]Again, you're missing my point (not sure if that is intentional or not). Before the reform, people could draw welfare for having a drug abuse problem. In other words, the system treated alcoholism/drug abuse as a disease that disallowed many people to hold study employment. That doesn't happen anymore[/quote:13e2115d82]

Okay... that's good... but still most welfare recipients have some sort of substance abuse problem. Not acceptable.

[quote:13e2115d82]If you don't want to talk about this topic from the side of research, at least allow me to ask you this -- If the health problems that arrise from smoking marijuana, which are very real, are your only problem with its usage, why do you feel that consenting adults choosing to smoke the stuff should be punished? I mean, isn't their health their business?[/quote:13e2115d82]

Health isn't the reason I think it should be illegal. But I do find it irritating when people act like it is as harmless as a coke.

[quote:13e2115d82]I don't think you really realize how marijuana or alcohol effect the body. There have never been any links to violence caused by marijuana use, however, that is not the case with alcohol. And while I would never condone anyone driving while under the effects of any substance, did you know that you are more likely to wreck if you are driving while drunk than you are if you smoke a joint? It takes a great deal of marijuana to slow down the reflexes, where as there is a noticable difference after drinking just one beer.[/quote:13e2115d82]

I wasn't talking about those... I was saying that you defend people's rights to use stuff like cocaine and heroine and ecstacy.

[quote:13e2115d82]Yes, but why?[/quote:13e2115d82]

Because it's illegal, and i've already explained why I think it should be.

[quote:13e2115d82]And I think you need to learn more about how these drugs you are discussing actually effect the body.[/quote:13e2115d82]

I know darn well how they affect the body.

[quote:034b2445fe]Okay... that's good... but still most welfare recipients have some sort of substance abuse problem. Not acceptable. [/quote:034b2445fe]

And many of these welfare recipients have children. Should the children pay for mistakes there parents have made?


[quote:034b2445fe]Health isn't the reason I think it should be illegal. But I do find it irritating when people act like it is as harmless as a coke. [/quote:034b2445fe]

Alcohol is absoutly harmless!


[quote:034b2445fe]I know darn well how they affect the body.[/quote:034b2445fe]

From what you see on T.V.?

[quote:55e413d58b="DaveTooner"]
Health isn't the reason I think it should be illegal. But I do find it irritating when people act like it is as harmless as a coke.[/quote:55e413d58b]

The World Health Organisation reported that marijuana is safer than either alcohol or tobacco. No it's not as harmless as a coke, but at the same time it is less harmful than these two legal substances. So exactly why do you think it should be illegal?

[quote:55e413d58b="ConfusedYouth"]
Yet in Europe where most drug use is legal crime has dropped since legalizing it.[/quote:55e413d58b]

I wouldn't say [i:55e413d58b]most[/i:55e413d58b] drug use is legal. Portugal has decriminalised all drugs and the Netherlands has decriminalised cannabis.
But yeah, crime has been shown to drop with decriminalisation of drugs. For example, in Lambeth, a district of London, there was a trial not so long ago in which cannabis was decriminalised. In the time period violent crime in the area halved. This was a direct result of being able to have policeman out on the streets stopping rapes, muggings, assualts etc. instead of dealing with people who had a joint in their bag.

Dave, do you think it is better to have other people being allowed to smoke pot and yourself to have a smaller chance of being a victim of violent crime, or do you think it is better to have other people being fined and/or put in jail for smoking pot and yourself to have a higher risk of being attacked?

The majority of people who smoke pot are useful members of society, who aren't dangerous. What's to be gained from putting them in jail? They're likely to develop a hatred of authority, and will be exposed to addictive and dangerous drugs they would not have considered taking before they went in. Consequently, when they come out, they may not be the same useful members of society they were when they went in.

[quote:55e413d58b="DaveTooner"]
I'd say a nice little fine, and some community service....Because it's illegal[/quote:55e413d58b]

I agree with you that people shouldn't complain when they are charged with possession and punished. You know it's illegal and you know the consequences of doing it before you roll that joint. But I do think there needs to be a change in the law.

[quote:2cfe905a4e]So exactly why do you think it should be illegal?[/quote:2cfe905a4e]

Because I think it would be like a cancer on society. No matter what any pinko says I will never believe that legalization would not INCREASE pot smoking. Lower cost, better availability, no legal risks... c'mon. Personally, I am not that close to any pot heads. only aquaintances. But I know other people who are and I have heard first hand from them how this wonder-herb can make you waste years of your life because all you want to do is "get high." Also, it is possible to become addicted to marijuana. It is very rare (something like 9% of all pot smokers) to be physically addicted, but it is not so rare to be mentally addicted. Meaning you get to the point where you think you have to be high to be happy. This comes from smoking it too regularly and it also leads to depression. I know you don't believe that, and that is fine, but you asked for my opinion.

About legalizing all drugs (ALL?! geez, legalizing pot is a half-way respectable position, but ALL DRUGS? Give. Me. A break.)... I don't know what country it was, but for some reason I want to say Switzerland... anyway, they legalized all drugs and it was a totally failed project. There were bums high off their rears out on the streets, peddlers selling heroin and who knows what for kids or whoever to buy as they wanted it. PATHETIC.

Sure, legalization would lower prices and probably crime... But A LOT of these addicts still wouldn't have enough money to buy the cheap legal kind. I mean, do you really think we should be able to walk into the gas station and buy a hypodermic needle of heroin? I'm glad this idea isn't taken seriously by anyone in office.

[quote:2cfe905a4e]I agree with you that people shouldn't complain when they are charged with possession and punished. You know it's illegal and you know the consequences of doing it before you roll that joint.[/quote:2cfe905a4e]

Finally, one with a little sense about him!

[quote:18f3033b1b="DaveTooner"]Because I think it would be like a cancer on society. No matter what any pinko says I will never believe that legalization would not INCREASE pot smoking. Lower cost, better availability, no legal risks[/quote:18f3033b1b]

Yeah I see what you mean there. But the people who go and get fucked up on it, like you said mental addiction is possible, already use it and a change in the law wouldn't mean anything to them at all. What may increase is perhaps people smoking a joint at the weekend, which isn't harmful to society. Anyway, I'll try and find some data on how things have changed in the Netherlands since their decriminalisation of cannabis.

[quote:18f3033b1b="DaveTooner"]I know you don't believe that[/quote:18f3033b1b]

I see no reason why that wouldn't be a consequence of mental addiction to cannabis. But I'm not convinced that more people could end up like that if it was legal. But I don't know.

[quote:18f3033b1b="DaveTooner"]About legalizing all drugs (ALL?! geez, legalizing pot is a half-way respectable position, but ALL DRUGS? Give. Me. A break.)... I don't know what country it was, but for some reason I want to say Switzerland... anyway, they legalized all drugs and it was a totally failed project. There were bums high off their rears out on the streets, peddlers selling heroin and who knows what for kids or whoever to buy as they wanted it. PATHETIC.[/quote:18f3033b1b]

I didn't say all drugs should be legalised. I don't know if Switzerland ever legalised all drugs, they could have done. Portugal decriminalised all drugs but that was quite recent so there isn't any feedback from that yet, I don't think.
Peddlers selling heroin to kids, that's bad. I hope in Portugal it's really tightly regulated, so only licenced places can sell stuff, and they make sure shit like that doesn't happen.

[quote:18f3033b1b="DaveTooner"]Sure, legalization would lower prices and probably crime... But A LOT of these addicts still wouldn't have enough money to buy the cheap legal kind. I mean, do you really think we should be able to walk into the gas station and buy a hypodermic needle of heroin? I'm glad this idea isn't taken seriously by anyone in office.[/quote:18f3033b1b]

A lot of these addicts still wouldn't have enough money to buy the cheap legal kind... but more would then could otherwise. Anyway, I'm not arguing for complete legalisation. I want to see what happens in Portugal first.

[quote:18f3033b1b="DaveTooner"]Finally, one with a little sense about him![/quote:18f3033b1b]
Lol, I'm a girl! Anyway, surely that makes sense to anyone with a rational though process?!

dusklight,

Finally, a liberal I can have a civilized discussion with. I don't really have anything to add here... at least until ConfusedYouth shows up to show me why I'm absolutely wrong.

Sorry for calling you a him.

Also...

This is going back to the original topic of the thread.

You know, they say that people with a higher IQ ususally have less common sense. To me, right-wing ideas are just common sense. Maybe these so called "social elite" just have no common sense, therefore are liberals.

(DISCLAIMER: This was supposed to be semi-lighthearted, so I dont want any pinkos jumping down my throat over it.)