Will this Madness ever Cease :mad:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040620/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_korean_hostage_3

Not as long as we excuse them in the media or as long as the world view is on their side. These beasts will continue to behead one after another until we destroy them and their ability to carry out these horrible acts.
We must stop the madness by taking an even tougher stance, Bush needs to soeak out to the world and tell them that any terrorists that kills any innocent will be hunted down and destroyed as well as the countries that harbor them. Maybe this time he can use words like obliterate and crush.
I know I will offend those who believe that we shouldnt kill but we should talk to these savages that call themselves humans.

Originally posted by Beirut_Veteran
Bush needs to soeak out to the world and tell them that any terrorists that kills any innocent will be hunted down and destroyed as well as the countries that harbor them. Maybe this time he can use words like obliterate and crush.

Right, we are being targeted by terrorists because we haven't pushed other countries around enough.

I know I will offend those who believe that we shouldnt kill but we should talk to these savages that call themselves humans.

And who would that be?

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Right, we are being targeted by terrorists because we haven't pushed other countries around enough.


And who would that be?
First of all, defending ourselves is not pushing people around.
Uhm, maybe Blib and company and it could include you but I know it doesnt include me.
:D

There is no other way to deal with these terrorist. And even King Abdullah has agreed that we must meet their attacks with retaliation. He has said that the only language these cowards speak is violence and intimidation.
So how is it that we shouldnt retaliate and crush the beasts where they stand.

I care less about the actual death, then the fact that it spurs another one. Revenge begets revenge, violence, violence. I don't want to be stuck in a never ending circle in a horrid world. People will die for it to end. Do we want them to die continuing the circle, or as martyrs ending it?

First of all, defending ourselves is not pushing people around.
It depends on how you defend yourself. I mean, if you defend yourself by dodging out of the way and running into another person, you're obviously pushing them around. Or by fighting back, missing and hitting somebody else.

So how is it that we shouldnt retaliate and crush the beasts where they stand.
Because, like I've said, they'll fight back. And then we'll fight back, and then they'll fight back, and then we'll fight back, and then, etc. And all in the process the most deaths will be of innocent people who had nothing to do with it.

They will fight no matter what we do. If we stop they will continue and of course gaining their strength back so that an attack making 9/11 look like a " bad day" would be the next order of the day.
Terrorist are not the types who do not fight because you dont.
I Beirut we had not fired a shot when they shelled our compound. We still didnt fire back and we lost 5 marines in a day. It wasnt until a month later that we began to fight but by that time we had lost 12 marines.
We were there to protect them but they attacked us, that is not the type of people who will just stop attacking.

Originally posted by Beirut_Veteran
They will fight no matter what we do. If we stop they will continue and of course gaining their strength back so that an attack making 9/11 look like a " bad day" would be the next order of the day.
Terrorist are not the types who do not fight because you dont.

Perhaps that is so, perhaps not, but one thing is certain, if we don't make some attempt to figure out the cause of the violence, it will continue.

To be frank, Beirut, you're answer to the problem seems to be just to kill more of them. That might work if there was a finite supply of these people. The fact is that the more of them that we kill, the more recruits they will have.

It's not like that solution hasn't been tried before. Throughout history, governments when faced with a group of dissidents, rebels, or guerrillas, have decided that the solution was to just kill them all, and hope that the problem will go away. It never works.

It may be emotionally satisfying, and it may even seem to solve the problem, by forcing these people deeper underground, but in the long run it is the road to failure, and defeat.

An excellent example is when the Romans decided to rid themselves of a pesky group of malcontents known as Christians. They decided that the best way to do that was to round them up and slaughter them off. I'll let you decide how well it worked for the Romans.

I am going to post these pages taken directly from an Al Qaeda training manual siezed in a safe house in London. Tell me if the words in these pages are of people who can be talked to.


UK/BM-3 TRANSLATION
[E ]19/220
In the name of Allah,the merciful and compassionate
PRESENTATION
To those champions who avowed the truth day and night... ...And wrote with their blood and sufferings these phrases...
-*-The confrontation that we are calling for with the apostate
regimes does not know Socratic debates...,Platonic ideals..., nor Aristotelian diplomacy.But it knows the dialogue of
bullets,the ideals of assassination,bombing,and destruction,
and the diplomacy of the cannon and machine-gun.
***...
Islamic governments have never and will never be established
through peaceful solutions and cooperative councils.They are established as they [always ]have been
by pen and gun
by word and bullet
by tongue and teeth


UK/BM-5 TRANSLATION
Pledge,O Sister
To the sister believer whose clothes the criminals have stripped
o f f .
To the sister believer whose hair the oppressors have shaved.
To the sister believer who's body has been abused by the human
dogs.
To the sister believer whose...
Pledge,OSister
Covenant,O S i s t e r ...t o make their women widows and their
children orphans.
Covenant,O S i s t e r ...t o make them desire death and hate
appointments and prestige.
Covenant,OSister...to slaughter them like lambs and let the
Nile,al-Asi,and Euphrates rivers flow with their blood.
Covenant,OSister...to be a pick of destruction f o r every
godless and apostate regime.
Covenant,OSister...to retaliate f o r you against every dog who touch you even with a bad word.


UK/BM-12 TRANSLATION
Principles of Military Organization:
Military Organization has three main principles without which it
cannot be established.
1.Military Organization commander and advisory council 2.The soldiers (individual members)
3.A clearly defined strategy
Military Organization Requirements:
The Military Organization dictates a number of requirements to
assist it in confrontation and endurance.These are:
1.Forged documents and counterfeit currency 2.Apartments and hiding places
3.Communication means 4.Transportation means
5.Information
6.Arms and ammunition
7.Transport
Missions Required of the Military Organization:
The main mission for which the Military Organization is responsible is:
The overthrow of the godless regimes and their replacement with
an Islamic regime.Other missions consist of the following:
1.Gathering information about the enemy,the land,the
installations,and the neighbors.
2.Kidnaping enemy personnel,documents,secrets,and arms.
3.Assassinating enemy personnel as well as foreign tourists.
4.Freeing the brothers who are captured by the enemy.
5 .Spreading rumors and writing statements that instigate
people against the enemy. 6.Blasting and destroying the places of amusement,immorality,
and sin;not a vital target.
7.Blasting and destroying the embassies and attacking vital
economic centers.
8 .Blasting and destroying bridges leading into and out of the
cities.

I see this as a view of almost a million radicals who will never stop until were have been destroyed.
I only advocate violence when there are no other means.
Pacifism has never stopped a war, not even when a choice was made to stay out of it.

Vile, I am not a fan of war nor am I a fan of killing but when you have no ther choice then I guess it must be done.

SOOOOooooo If I get this correctly.....It is our fault that these sadistic evil people take innocent people and grab up swords and hack thier heads off. I Think Not.

BTW maybe one or two of you might offer to be the peace negotiator to these militants and go visit them and chat peace for a bit. Do me a favor and call me when you come home.....

The confrontation that we are calling for with the apostate
regimes does not know Socratic debates...,Platonic ideals..., nor Aristotelian diplomacy.But it knows the dialogue of
bullets,the ideals of assassination,bombing,and destruction,
and the diplomacy of the cannon and machine-gun.
Look at that. Exactly what you're condoning. Fuel for their fire. Who wants to volunteer to throw the dynamite in the fire?

I see this as a view of almost a million radicals who will never stop until were have been destroyed.
I see a creed that will stand tall until refuted.

Sad. But is it just me or does it seem strange to see beheading as thoroughly and infinitely more horrific, more painful than countless other possible killing methods? It's despicable and bestial that they are openly killing prisoners, but I personally won't get more upset to see our people beheaded than seeing them gunned down. It's really the same, but everyone gets worked up when somebody's head is chopped off.

Will it cease? We are now almost in a position where good solutions are beginning to run out. However, if we are to hunt all radical Islams down, as BV said we should, perhaps in a 20 year period, more American people will die than in the same 20 years if the US were to pull out completely right now. Obviously the Middle East will still be in chaos if we pull out, but it will probably be chaos anyway if the war does not end until we hunt down all terrorists which obviously will take more than 20 years.

Originally posted by honestyhurts
SOOOOooooo If I get this correctly.....It is our fault that these sadistic evil people take innocent people and grab up swords and hack thier heads off. I Think Not.

You do know, that, many of the prisoners that we abused and killed (12 deaths are being investigated right now, that occurred in our prisons, in Iraq) were actually innocent civilians? http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0511-04.htm

“Most 'Arrested by Mistake'
Coalition intelligence put numbers at 70% to 90% of Iraq prisoners, says a February Red Cross report, which details further abuses.”

So, actually, to say the terrorists are so “evil” because they kill/abuse innocent people…and then defend our actions, is just being ignorant.

Two wrongs don’t make a right, and us acting just as inhuman as them, will in return, make them work even harder to attack and kill us.



Originally posted by Beirut_Veteran
They will fight no matter what we do. If we stop they will continue and of course gaining their strength back so that an attack making 9/11 look like a " bad day" would be the next order of the day.


It’s ironic you would say this, because the strength they are gaining, is a direct result of our mismanagement of the Iraq War. The report, the Bush Administration “misread” said that it has shown a dramatic increase in terrorism around the world, since we have been in Iraq.

Reports show that Al Queda is gaining in members…because they have been able to recruit more members, because we have abused, and in some cases, killed prisoners. Which gives them more quote “evidence” that we are the “evil Americans”, which in return, fuels more hatred for us worldwide, which then, puts our safety at risk.

Originally posted by Beirut_Veteran
Terrorist are not the types who do not fight because you dont.
I Beirut we had not fired a shot when they shelled our compound. We still didnt fire back and we lost 5 marines in a day. It wasnt until a month later that we began to fight but by that time we had lost 12 marines.
We were there to protect them but they attacked us, that is not the type of people who will just stop attacking.

You know, that may be true, but only to an extent. But, I ask you, if we act like them, isn’t that just condoning the very actions we call “evil”. Isn’t that just fueling the retaliations, we want to stop?

Killing them, because they killed us, only makes us look just like the very people we call “evil”. Again, two wrongs to not make a right.

During this Iraq War we have acted more like the terrorists, then ever before. The result of this, has lead to more Al Queda members, and them hating America even more. Which will increase the attacks on us, in a more harsh and catastrophic way.

You see, before we didn’t act like them. And you know what, many people were not “buying” that we were the “evil country”, they proclaimed us to be. But now that we have gotten more and more like the terrorists, they now have a reason, and examples, to say we are “evil, and you better join us, or they’ll do that to you!”

It’s like with Israel and the Palestine’s…
Palestine’s attack
Israel attacks back
Palestine’s attack, and do more damage
Israel attacks, with more damage
So on and so forth.
Increasing the level of violence with each time.

They are both equally wrong, and it’s only fueling the hatred between those two “people”. It’s only increasing the devastating attacks they both commit, for, they get more violent with each planned attack.

It’s just, hypocritical, and it will in return, make us have more enemies worldwide.

Dio, When a person has his head cut off and it takes about 30 seconds to saw through the neck it is much more horrific than being gunned down. I guess you can say it is the knowing what is going to happen as you are held down and a savage saws through your neck.
If you dont see the difference it might be that you have no comparrison to what is a bad way to die or a more human way to die. Plus these people are truly innocent.
OD, the terrorist arent even using that as an excuse anymore why are you? The excuse of the week is American civilians working for the Saudi government and they want the SK army to withdraw, even though they are in Iraq for humanitarian purposes. ie. building hospitals not fighting.
SO I guess it bothered you more than the terrorists.

Sooner or later the terrorist may be in your neighborhood.
When the knife is at your throat call me and I will have a polite conversation with them. Then after they cut your head off and place the knife at your loved ones throat I will have another polite conversation with them.

But when he turns the still bloody knife toward me I will then calmly blow his damn head off.

In World War II our country had finally had enough of the Japenese and we did something that got there attention and fast the war was over in a matter of hours.Some way or another the inecent people should be given the chance to get the hell out of there and in we go untill we get there attention no matter how awfull it turns out ,nothing could be as awfull as they are doing to our people and other countries people right now. We need to get there attention in a way they will "never forget" just as we did with the Japenese.I know it sounds awfull but we are not getting anywhere the way things are being handled right now.I don't mean a nuke attack but something just shy of that.

You know where to target in the Japan case, so it was over in no time. But if US keeps up staying there and fight in Iraq, no telling how long it will take, and lots of Americans will die. I don't want to live in warring period from my 20s to my 40s. I'd rather the US pull out and let there be possibility of more terrorist attacks.

Surely you will agree that the greatest stunts the terrorists can pull in a period of 20 years targeting US mainland will not cause even remotely as many death as compare to what the casuaty will be from a continuous US combat effort in Iraq in a period of 20 years.

Originally posted by TMW1956
[B]Some way or another the inecent people should be given the chance to get the hell out of there and in we go untill we get there attention no matter how awfull it turns out (...) We need to get there attention in a way they will "never forget" just as we did with the Japenese.I know it sounds awfull. B]

You're right. You're very right.
That sounds awful, that smells awful, that IS awful.

And that is precisely what the terrorists want. Terror, so inhuman it will push the adversary to lower himself to their level.
In face of terrorism we can only stand firmer than ever on the values of democracy and human rights. No innocents shall suffer because of us. That's the only way to win against them - to show them we are not impressed by their barbaric violence.

Originally posted by Dio Seijuro
You know where to target in the Japan case, so it was over in no time. But if US keeps up staying there and fight in Iraq, no telling how long it will take, and lots of Americans will die. I don't want to live in warring period from my 20s to my 40s. I'd rather the US pull out and let there be possibility of more terrorist attacks.

Surely you will agree that the greatest stunts the terrorists can pull in a period of 20 years targeting US mainland will not cause even remotely as many death as compare to what the casuaty will be from a continuous US combat effort in Iraq in a period of 20 years.
I would rather be in a war zone as a soldier for 20 years than to have my family in danger.

I am sorry that you feel that it is easier to do nothing and hope that another 3000 dont die or maybe 30000 this time or higher.

Originally posted by Beirut_Veteran
I would rather be in a war zone as a soldier for 20 years than to have my family in danger.


Funny you would say that BV…

Because the “Weapons” that were dangerous to us, are not in Iraq (according to you), so they are still out there, posing a threat to us.
We have a 90% chance of an attack
Al Queda membership is rising
And the report (The Bush Administration misread) showed a dramatic increase in terrorism.

But, yes, this war is making your family safer…

Your family as a unit include yourself. So by going to war, the overall safety of the family as a unit actually lowers because while the other members' safety level increases marginally, your own decreases tremendously. That's what I meant when I ask you to imagine two different 20 year periods and estimate in which way more people will actually die.

Again I'd rather the US pull out and let there be the occasional terrorist attacks (or none, just the insecurity that there might be) than living in a prolonged war that's IMO not making me feel any safer. Of course, it's not fair for me to say this to you BV, since I have no relative living in the states. But if my family live here now, they are likely to feel the same way I do.

Which way would more people die in the same 20 years? Rational estimation please.

Originally posted by Dio Seijuro
Your family as a unit include yourself. So by going to war, the overall safety of the family as a unit actually lowers because while the other members' safety level increases marginally, your own decreases tremendously. That's what I meant when I ask you to imagine two different 20 year periods and estimate in which way more people will actually die.

Again I'd rather the US pull out and let there be the occasional terrorist attacks (or none, just the insecurity that there might be) than living in a prolonged war that's IMO not making me feel any safer. Of course, it's not fair for me to say this to you BV, since I have no relative living in the states. But if my family live here now, they are likely to feel the same way I do.

Which way would more people die in the same 20 years? Rational estimation please.

Dio, my safety is nothing compared to that of the ones I have devoted my life to protecting.

OD why is it you have never read the letter I posted from Zarqawi to bin Laden? That letter shows the war is working, that Al Qaeda and its splinter groups have been hurt and are finding it hard to plan attacks other than the savage beheading of innocent people.
It doesnt take a large force to kidnap one person and cut their heads off.
SO I guess even though you insist on saying that we are less safe now than prior to 9/11 you might be wrong.

They may be finding it harder to plan attacks...but that does not mean they aren't growing.