http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=4&u=/ap/20040615/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_us_poll_1

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Originally posted by Overdose
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=4&u=/ap/20040615/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_us_poll_1

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Havent we done this recently, I believe with the same poll.
And I guess I will say the same thing, wow a conquered country thinks we are bad. who would have thought.
The poll was released in May, so I think it is the same one posted earlier or maybe just mentioned in a thread,

It's a new poll. Just came out.
And if I remember, we were liberating France in WWII, and they loved us...as they should have.

But shouldn't the Iraqis love us, since we are doing the right thing?

This poll is a month old and done during Al-Sadr's insurgence. now that he has been crushed and pushed aside I wonder how the poll would be different.

The poll just showed up on Yahoo News today. And regardless I bet the percent of people who are in favor of the US is lower, since more and more of their officials are being shot and killed. Making their country in more turmoil.

we are arrogant enough to believe that they want us there to fight for their freedoms.......just because bush says so...? what we dont understand is that most of this is religeous to middle eastern people. yeah, they may have wanted saddam out, but they dont want us there MORE.......but we speak for them. each country has a way of life, and in a lot of cases , that way of life dictates what you become use too, and what your standards will be. some people dont mind dictatorships, run properly, just like monarchy's, they are really dictators. do we have the right to say that our way of life is better ? if it is, they can come here, alot of them did......so...we think that we are better than them because we are more free. we think that just because they show some guys with fingers cut off, that , that makes them more evil than us........remember agent orange ?..........remember the herion/LSD studies where our govt went into colleges and spiked the drinks of college students with drugs just to see their reaction. why , with all of the boarder and security, do drugs get into this country so easily ? money to some high govt official, makes that shit happen.....thats how. we are not the moral police !.......oh, by the fuckin way, did you see where they found out that saddam refused alqaeda...?.....now what ~!

again more bullshit form overdose designed to raise doubt and worry, nothing constructive, no suggestions besides "bring in the UN" becasue we all know how successfull the UN has been in other peace keeping missions in the congo and rawada and the balkans :rolleyes: I am sick of the leftists posing every poll that helps their agenda of failure but convientlyavoiding any poll that goes agaisnt it. I say do not post any polls no matter what they say, becasue as the LA times has shown quite well, polls are easily manipulated and are not actual news.

Originally posted by Travh20
again more bullshit form overdose designed to raise doubt and worry, nothing constructive, no suggestions besides "bring in the UN" becasue we all know how successfull the UN has been in other peace keeping missions in the congo and rawada and the balkans :rolleyes: I am sick of the leftists posing every poll that helps their agenda of failure but convientlyavoiding any poll that goes agaisnt it. I say do not post any polls no matter what they say, becasue as the LA times has shown quite well, polls are easily manipulated and are not actual news. everythings manipulated or tampered with or liberal.......huh !!? everything but truthful ....huh !?? did you read that 911 panel found that saddam turned down offers to help bin laden !!?? bipartisan !! you are a closed minded man travh.....tell me something............how come we are not in saudi arabia, thats where alqaida is......open your eyes. you labeling everything liberal is not gonna be the answer to everything......one day your gonna have to answer a question.........and lo and behold, we will find out just how dumb you are >>

Originally posted by Travh20
again more bullshit form overdose designed to raise doubt and worry, nothing constructive, no suggestions besides "bring in the UN" becasue we all know how successfull the UN has been in other peace keeping missions in the congo and rawada and the balkans :rolleyes:

You may not agree with the suggestion to bring in the UN, but at least it's a suggestion. Do you have any suggestions for how to improve the situation in Iraq, or are you content just to attack "the leftists"?

I am sick of the leftists posing every poll that helps their agenda of failure but convientlyavoiding any poll that goes agaisnt it.

What the hell is an "agenda of failure", and where did you pick up that piece of rhetoric?

Why would you expect anyone to post something that goes against their beliefs? Do you post such things?

maybe saddam refused al qeada becasue he knew it would lead to his downfall. I doubt he did it out of respect for international law. maybe istead of saying the sky is falling and attacking me you can use your oh so open mind to look at things without the "I hate Bush" blinders on.

Originally posted by Overdose

And if I remember, we were liberating France in WWII, and they loved us...as they should have.


Good point, OD.
There is a big difference. The USA and allied countries liberated France from a foreign occupation army, during wartime. And they didn't take the power, which was very soon handled by french people.
Ask people from former eastern germany if they were happy to be "liberated" by the USSR. I think it is a much better comparison : they were freed from a bloody tyrant, but lost a war to be occupied by a foreign country most of them considered as an enemy.

pol shows half of iraqis are glad US is there

Originally posted by Travh20
maybe saddam refused al qeada becasue he knew it would lead to his downfall. I doubt he did it out of respect for international law. maybe istead of saying the sky is falling and attacking me you can use your oh so open mind to look at things without the "I hate Bush" blinders on. so your answer is, so what he didnt help, bush was right, he helped

Originally posted by Travh20
pol shows half of iraqis are glad US is there once again travh.....throwing a jab, when a left hook is necessary !

Originally posted by astrapol2
Good point, OD.
There is a big difference. The USA and allied countries liberated France from a foreign occupation army, during wartime. And they didn't take the power, which was very soon handled by french people.
Ask people from former eastern germany if they were happy to be "liberated" by the USSR. I think it is a much better comparison : they were freed from a bloody tyrant, but lost a war to be occupied by a foreign country most of them considered as an enemy. damn good example astrapol2

so why do you think saddam decided not to help al qeada korg?

Originally posted by Travh20
so why do you think saddam decided not to help al qeada korg? i think he had his own agenda....whatever it was. maybe getting more women to live in his house .....lol. i also think that he remembers that he was put in by america. if you really think travh.......HE wasnt doing anything to US. when 911 happened, we all found out that osama did it.......all of a sudden here comes saddams name. we questioned nothing . our anger just made us go along with anything we heard. we were angry...but we are beating up on the wrong guy, bad as he may be..........is that a possibility travh ? do you really think that, at that point, saddam was THE real threat to US !?

Sadadam was a real threat to the US. any proof of any colllaboration or contact between al qeada and saddam is cause for concern. just becasue they didnt collaborate on 9-11 doenst mean tehre is no chance of them pooling resources at a future date. saddamwas not above terrorism. i dont understand why people think saddam was so agaisnt terrorism or incapable of supporting al qeada. there are lots of ways to support terrorists like al qeada.

Originally posted by Travh20
Sadadam was a real threat to the US. any proof of any colllaboration or contact between al qeada and saddam is cause for concern. just becasue they didnt collaborate on 9-11 doenst mean tehre is no chance of them pooling resources at a future date. saddamwas not above terrorism. i dont understand why people think saddam was so agaisnt terrorism or incapable of supporting al qeada. there are lots of ways to support terrorists like al qeada. ....look, i didnt say he was beneath terrorism, but you no more know whats in that mans head than i do. my problem, my friend, is that at that time , we knew who did it, and it had NOTHING to do with saddam.....he wasnt a real threat to us, he couldnt reach us. he may have been a threat to allies, but george senior handled that ....and travh, each week, a piece of the armor of bushes lie comes off. now, the argument that you guys use about them being tied to 911, cant be used anymore......your slowly finding evidence that your "perverbial" wife is cheating. bushes lies are catching up, and all you guys will be able to say is " so what, he still did something to deserve this because republicans wouldnt lie", but just like democrats, they all lie. problem is, democratic lies dont have my brother in iraq !

Originally posted by Travh20
just becasue they didnt collaborate on 9-11 doenst mean tehre is no chance of them pooling resources at a future date. saddamwas not above terrorism. i dont understand why people think saddam was so agaisnt terrorism or incapable of supporting al qeada. there are lots of ways to support terrorists like al qeada.

That's why Bush said there was no link....

Oh and we started these wars because of 9/11...

So umm.....

OK, if you insist on believeing that saddam was just a victim of US imperialism go ahead. dont forget that saddam celebrated after 9-11.

Another example of "liberation" that comes to my mind is that of Cambodia by vietnamese troops during the 80's.
Following one of the worst regimes of 20th century, the bloody Khmer Rouge, who slaughtered 4 million people of their own country, anything should have been welcome.
But it soon turned out that the vietnamese were not welcome by the population and should not have stayed. They set up a puppet govt which was slightly better than the khmer rouge but hardly democratic. Only when they left and the UN started organizing free elections did the people of cambodia start to feel free (unfortunately, this country has suffered so much and is so poor that it is still in very bad shape).

This example only to show that whatever regime you have been living in, foreign "liberation" is never welcome if followed by an occupation.

thats great, compare our involvement in iraq to the vietnamese take over of cambodia :rolleyes: maybe you should compare it to the vichy french government set up by the liberating germans. come on now. we dont want to have all these troops in iraq. we want them to take over and run their coutnry. as long as there are terrorists trying to revert irraq back to a dictatorship or islamic theocracy we will ahve to stay there to stop that from happening. maybe if the iraqis so pissed at us did something besides sit on their ass and wait for us to do everything we could be out of there faster. just like the french after WW2, sitting on their asses waiting for the ameicans to fix everything with the wave of a magic wand,never stopping to consider its their country.

i was using the example of Cambodia to show that even following the worst regime, people want to be in charge of their country and do not support their "liberators". Nothing more.

and we want them to be in charge of their country too

Trav I think Astra is right, the Red Death of Cambodia was a dictorial terror regime equal to Husseins but Vietnam is not a military force equal to ours. Even though this analogy is a good one, the country being liberated has been oppressed for so long that they do not know how to be free, to think for themselves and of course with all the pre liberation chest pounding that the dictator has had a chance to tell their people that if the liberators succeed they will be slaughtered.
SO of course the population is distrustful. Another good analogy is that of an abused spouse when the police intervene, the spouse sometimes attacks the police even though they are trying to help them.
A fear that the liberation will fail and those im power prior will return and retaliate against the ones who assisted the liberators.

remember in WW2 when japanese civilians were throwing themselves off of cliffs rather then be eaten by the american savages? the japanese governemtn convinced many japanes taht teh americans wre animals that would kill and eat them if they were captured alive.

Originally posted by Beirut_Veteran
the country being liberated has been oppressed for so long that they do not know how to be free, to think for themselves and of course with all the pre liberation chest pounding that the dictator has had a chance to tell their people that if the liberators succeed they will be slaughtered.
(…)
A fear that the liberation will fail and those im power prior will return and retaliate against the ones who assisted the liberators.

I'm not sure these are the main reasons why people reject their "liberrators". I suppose that, quite simply, people do not want other nations to decide for them. They want to run their country by themselves. And another nation, whatever are its real intentions, always end looking like an aggressor and an occupation force if it does not give the power back soon enough.

Originally posted by Travh20
Sadadam was a real threat to the US. any proof of any colllaboration or contact between al qeada and saddam is cause for concern. just becasue they didnt collaborate on 9-11 doenst mean tehre is no chance of them pooling resources at a future date. saddamwas not above terrorism. i dont understand why people think saddam was so agaisnt terrorism or incapable of supporting al qeada. there are lots of ways to support terrorists like al qeada. so then you will agree that something smells funny, because the day of the bombing, bush had to sneak osama's family out of his home and on to a plane......did you hear that ? so , if saddam having minimal contact makes him a suspect, then bush is hiding something.....and is a suspect also !!

Originally posted by Travh20
remember in WW2 when japanese civilians were throwing themselves off of cliffs rather then be eaten by the american savages? the japanese governemtn convinced many japanes taht teh americans wre animals that would kill and eat them if they were captured alive. we have stupid rumors and prejudices too.....dont get full of yourself. im black, and i grew up in an all white community....i mean. all white. one day the people came to our door at midnight, because the rumor was that black people grew tails at midnight.....ever hear that one....heres another. i cut myself on this womans farm playing with her son. the woman almost tore the doors off the hinges trying to see my blue blood. imagine her disappointment when it was red. she was highly upset, and made it clear to me that she was.....heard that one, here's another; there was a teacher in my forth grade class, that wouldnt touch me to save her life. she would grab my paperwork by the very corners and drop it on my desk....just didnt like me. one day, she lost her purse, she was frantic. so she walked up to me and rubbed my head. i thought to myself, "hey, she must thjink im ok now". only to find out that she thought that if you rub a black mans head, you'll get good luck.....some of you know this stuff, and probably wont admit it.....hell, i had my head, and i wasnt having good luck at all out there..........lmao

Originally posted by Beirut_Veteran
Trav I think Astra is right, the Red Death of Cambodia was a dictorial terror regime equal to Husseins but Vietnam is not a military force equal to ours. Even though this analogy is a good one, the country being liberated has been oppressed for so long that they do not know how to be free, to think for themselves and of course with all the pre liberation chest pounding that the dictator has had a chance to tell their people that if the liberators succeed they will be slaughtered.
SO of course the population is distrustful. Another good analogy is that of an abused spouse when the police intervene, the spouse sometimes attacks the police even though they are trying to help them.
A fear that the liberation will fail and those im power prior will return and retaliate against the ones who assisted the liberators. you know beirut.......we always think that people dont know how to live unless we show them........how arrogant.....people will figure it out.......we did !

thats funny shit coming from a liberal who wants to tell us hat cars to drive and what to eat

Originally posted by Travh20
thats funny shit coming from a liberal who wants to tell us hat cars to drive and what to eat travh, you have permission to go back to the tv room and finish watching spongebob

Originally posted by korg
we have stupid rumors and prejudices too.....dont get full of yourself. im black, and i grew up in an all white community....i mean. all white. one day the people came to our door at midnight, because the rumor was that black people grew tails at midnight.....ever hear that one....heres another. i cut myself on this womans farm playing with her son. the woman almost tore the doors off the hinges trying to see my blue blood. imagine her disappointment when it was red. she was highly upset, and made it clear to me that she was.....heard that one, here's another; there was a teacher in my forth grade class, that wouldnt touch me to save her life. she would grab my paperwork by the very corners and drop it on my desk....just didnt like me. one day, she lost her purse, she was frantic. so she walked up to me and rubbed my head. i thought to myself, "hey, she must thjink im ok now". only to find out that she thought that if you rub a black mans head, you'll get good luck.....some of you know this stuff, and probably wont admit it.....hell, i had my head, and i wasnt having good luck at all out there..........lmao

I'm always amazed at the stunning ignorance of some people. Korg, your stories have left me speechless.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
I'm always amazed at the stunning ignorance of some people. Korg, your stories have left me speechless. you know mr hutz, those were experiences that shaped who i am, and i hold not one thing against them. just like i ran into some bad, i also have some good stories about my upbringing in that community.....i would not have changed one thing.

Being 45 years old I have never heard the story that black people grow tails or have blue blood.... I have lived in every part of the US, my dad was career Army and I Navy.
I am not sure of the intent of these stories.
I do know that we will be viewed in Iraq as occupiers and we will have a long road ahead of us.
I am sure if you were a Kurd you would be glad that we came in, or if you were a shia and so on. We are not telling them how to live we are showing them that they can have a prosperous lifestyle without a brutal dictator.
Lets not forget the Hussein was refered to as the Butcher of Baghdad by his own people.

Korg's stories are stunning but don't surprise me so much. I already heard in France that some people beleive that black people's shit is white !
And I also heard that amongts the north-african minority, a common belief is that "french people are usually naked at home". A prejudice that can easily be explained by cultural differences and the fact that we are in fact more likely to be naked than muslim people (on the beach, etc…)

Bacj to the main topic - I think it is right to separate two issues : "liberation" from Hussein's regime, and "occupation" by US troops.

Sure, most Iraqi people are happy that Saddam is gone. But that does not mean they are happy by the current way their country is managed.

Originally posted by Beirut_Veteran
Being 45 years old I have never heard the story that black people grow tails or have blue blood.... I have lived in every part of the US, my dad was career Army and I Navy.
I am not sure of the intent of these stories.
I do know that we will be viewed in Iraq as occupiers and we will have a long road ahead of us.
I am sure if you were a Kurd you would be glad that we came in, or if you were a shia and so on. We are not telling them how to live we are showing them that they can have a prosperous lifestyle without a brutal dictator.
Lets not forget the Hussein was refered to as the Butcher of Baghdad by his own people. beirut....the intent of my story is the quote that it replies to. i wanted to show that we have stupid stories about other people too. rumors and prejudices. i hope your not calling me a liar. these stories are very true and even worst. in 1985 my brother was beaten and murdered at the age of 15. it was never investigated.....it was because he was black.....but i dont hold ANY ill will towards white people because i know that there is good and bad in every race.......beirut, i will never know what you went through, so i dont question what you say about the wars you've been in...please dont question whether this happened to me just because YOU had'nt seen it....

Originally posted by korg
beirut....the intent of my story is the quote that it replies to. i wanted to show that we have stupid stories about other people too. rumors and prejudices. i hope your not calling me a liar. these stories are very true and even worst. in 1985 my brother was beaten and murdered at the age of 15. it was never investigated.....it was because he was black.....but i dont hold ANY ill will towards white people because i know that there is good and bad in every race.......beirut, i will never know what you went through, so i dont question what you say about the wars you've been in...please dont question whether this happened to me just because YOU had'nt seen it....
Korg you ahve questioned everything I have said about terrorist and I have faced them in combat.
I was not calling you a liar but saying I have never heard them, sometimes in racism stories that people hear are spread by the group it targets. There are many stories that have been spread by white people about white people. These are used to create hate by people who seek to keep racism going. I am not saying that you are but your statement saying you have no ill towards white people can be viewed as a racist comment. I am not saying it was intended that way but saying that allowing tags to be used spreads racism and hatred in people who already feel the hate.
I am sorry your brother was killed and I feel for your plight but only you, like me, can heal those wounds. NO one else may heal my wounds and no one else can make you feel better, it must come from within.
Korg, the administration is not the enemy in this battle, the terrorist are, much like in the 60's we created our own enemy inside our country so we could take out our anger on. That enemy became real and some of its hatred spreads today. Lets not let our country break into groups of haters again. It was an ugly time in our Nation and if we allow it back again it will be worse.
Al Qaeda has said that they will use our laws against us and we must not let them. It is obvious that some of what you hear in the news or polls from Iraq is not the truth, and alot of what you know to be true of your fellow Americans( in your heart, not your mind) is .

Originally posted by Beirut_Veteran
Korg you ahve questioned everything I have said about terrorist and I have faced them in combat.
I was not calling you a liar but saying I have never heard them, sometimes in racism stories that people hear are spread by the group it targets. There are many stories that have been spread by white people about white people. These are used to create hate by people who seek to keep racism going. I am not saying that you are but your statement saying you have no ill towards white people can be viewed as a racist comment. I am not saying it was intended that way but saying that allowing tags to be used spreads racism and hatred in people who already feel the hate.
I am sorry your brother was killed and I feel for your plight but only you, like me, can heal those wounds. NO one else may heal my wounds and no one else can make you feel better, it must come from within.
Korg, the administration is not the enemy in this battle, the terrorist are, much like in the 60's we created our own enemy inside our country so we could take out our anger on. That enemy became real and some of its hatred spreads today. Lets not let our country break into groups of haters again. It was an ugly time in our Nation and if we allow it back again it will be worse.
Al Qaeda has said that they will use our laws against us and we must not let them. It is obvious that some of what you hear in the news or polls from Iraq is not the truth, and alot of what you know to be true of your fellow Americans( in your heart, not your mind) is . ] beirut.........im gonna say this one time and the end of this subject.......no one black told me these things, i was 8-13 years old and there were NO BLACKS there but me and my family....got it so far ?! now, the VERY white people that did these things, were the ones that told me why. !! i didnt learn this from anyone black, those people were either crazy or stupid enough to tell me, or just thought that i was stupid......SECOND : im not carrying this as a badge to hate white people. im not carrying this because i need therapy, i am not stupid enough to let that shit stay in my life, or stupid enough to believe that all people are like that !! got it so far. that statement that i "have no ill will towards white people" is not racist, because based on the society i've seen, i have every right to feel that way if i did..a lot of people i know hold things against people for the acts of one person, and because i lived out there, i knew a lot of white people who hold things against ALL black people for the acts of one........but I DONT. how many people who's brother was murdered by taliban are able to not hate them ? so i say, i dont hate anyone for my brothers death, even though he was murdered by whites.....got that !...THIRD : this statement was the one i replied to::Originally posted by Travh20
remember in WW2 when japanese civilians were throwing themselves off of cliffs rather then be eaten by the american savages? the japanese governemtn convinced many japanes taht teh americans wre animals that would kill and eat them if they were captured alive.
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i was telling him that we're all like that, we all have prejudices, thats why i brought that up......and you responded like a true racist. trying to tell me that this couldnt have happened to me. maybe not in those words , but thats what youre saying. man this shit happened and i dont need your validation, you can think what you want.....and you think your an authority on everything huh, trying to tell a black man that he didnt face racism, how arrogant...you know what, i dont use the race card because i wasnt dumb enough to let racism stop me and it wont, but NO ONE can tell me that it doesnt exist....and you being a soldier no more makes you an expert on the military than me owning a chevy makes me an authority on general motors......we debate here, thats what we do. we ARE NOT policy makers or world shakers.......i dont have any wounds man !![