First, a couple of notes. I started this thread in the History forum, rather than Religion, because (hopefully), we will be discussing the beliefs of people from history, not the correctness of those beliefs.

Second, I will make no attempt to define who exactly the members are of that group known as the "founding fathers". If you think they were instrumental in founding this country, feel free to discuss their views.

There have been many things said about this country's founders, and their intentions when they set about creating the United States. I am constantly amazed and bothered by the contentions of some, usually to the right politically and religiously, that this country was founded as a Christian nation.

I don't think that contention is supported by the facts.

Some quotes from men who were instrumental in creating this nation.

George Washington:

“Every man, conducting himself as a good citizen, and being accountable to God alone for his religious opinion, ought to be protected in worshipping th Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience.”

The Treaty of Tripoli was written while George washington was President. It states:

“As the government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself not character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musslemen [Muslims] . . . it is declared . . . that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”

(perhaps we should not forget this treaty today)

Thomas Paine:

“The character of Moses is the most horrid tale that can be imagined. Moses was a wretch that committed the most horrible atrocities that can be found in the literature of any nation. ‘For Moses said unto them (according to the Bible), kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known a man by lying with him, but al the women that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.’

“Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to ‘God’ to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare to dishonor my Creator’s name by [attaching] it to this filthy book. Men and books lie. Only nature does not lie.”

James Madison:

“Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”

“Besides the danger of a direct mixture of religion and civil government, there is an evil which ought to be guarded against in the indefinite accumulation of property from the capacity of holding it in perpetuity by ecclesiastical corporations.

“The establishment of the chaplainship in Congress is a palpable violation of equal rights as well as of Constitutional principles.

“The danger of silent accumulations and encroachments by ecclesiastical bodies has not sufficiently engaged attention in the U.S.”

John Adams:

"The 'divinity' of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find Christianity encumbered with."

"I believe in no such thing [eternal damnation]. My adoration of the author of the Universe is too profound and too sincere. The love of God and his creation--delight, joy, triumph, exultation in my own existence--though but an atom, a molecule organique, in the Universe--these are my religion."

The are many more quotes like this from different people, but I think they, and the documents that founded this nation, show that this nation was founded by an enlightened group of men who believed in a variety of things, but most agreed that they did not want to found a "christian" nation.

My personal belief is that the majority of our countrys founders were intelligent men. This intelligence gave them the ability to seperate a belief in a supreme intelligence from mans religions.
The founding fathers had access to written history which showed the eventual ravages upon a one religion society.
Man's religion and state must be seperate.
For the state must be for the welfare of all.
Religion tends to give preference to those of like beliefs.

Ok first off, I agree with you Dan and Vile in the other thread I was speaking of Pilgrims and Puritans when I said this country was settled for religious freedom.


Here is my evidence;

Naturally, the primary text for later interpreters would be the Mayflower Compact, which Bradford gives:

In the name of God, Amen. We whose names are underwriten, by the loyall subjects of our dread soveraigne Lord, King James, by the grace of God, of Great Britaine, Franc, and Ireland king, defender of the faith, etc.

Haveing undertaken, for the glorie of God, and advancemente of the Christian faith, and honour of our king and countrie, a voyage to plant the first colonie in the Northerne parts of Virginia, doe by these presents solemnly and mutually in the presence of God, and one another, covenant and combine our selves togeather into a civill body politick, for our better ordering and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by vertue hereof to enacte, constitute and frame shuch just and equall lawes, ordinances, acts, constitutions, and offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meete and convenient for the generall good of the Colonie, unto which we promise all due submission and obedience. In witnes whereof we have hereunder subscribed our names at Cap-Codd the .11. of November, in the year of the raigne of our soveraigne lord, King James, of England, France, and Ireland, the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fiftie-fourth. Anno Dom. 1620 (Wheelwright, 32-33)


I believe that all religions should be represented in this country. I also believe that no one should be persecuted for their beliefs or way of life.

Ok...you got me. I wasn't really thinking about the pilgrims or the puritans when I mentioned the "founding fathers".

I was thinking of the formation of the United States from the thirteen colonies.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Ok...you got me. I wasn't really thinking about the pilgrims or the puritans when I mentioned the "founding fathers".

I was thinking of the formation of the United States from the thirteen colonies.
Thats it? no fire and brimstone? I mean I am glad everyone is alright but.....


:banana:

Originally posted by Beirut_Veteran
Thats it? no fire and brimstone? I mean I am glad everyone is alright but.....


:banana:

Hell no, that's not it...*breathes fire and brimstone on Beirut*... get back in there, and stick with the subject this time...*pokes Beirut with red-hot pitchfork*

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Hell no, that's not it...*breathes fire and brimstone on Beirut*... get back in there, and stick with the subject this time...*pokes Beirut with red-hot pitchfork*
OWWWWWW!!!!!
Alright going to brush up on the beliefs of the Framers.....
Geeeeez.

You guys.......

BV and Pagan and Dan: I was also under the impression of "founding fathers" as those of the Puritan faith (hence the Salem witchtrials). Which, is a whole 'nother thread entirely.

Originally posted by saycricket
BV and Pagan and Dan: I was also under the impression of "founding fathers" as those of the Puritan faith (hence the Salem witchtrials). Which, is a whole 'nother thread entirely.
See, vile....
Now take that pichfork out of my flesh......






:banana:

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Ok...you got me. I wasn't really thinking about the pilgrims or the puritans when I mentioned the "founding fathers".

I was thinking of the formation of the United States from the thirteen colonies.

Alright, I completely agree with and enjoyed Vile's posting, but I'm sorry, you DO need a little more fire and brimstone for Beirut's response.

Perhaps you simply made a mistake in not defining "founding fathers," but it seems as ridiculous to me to call the pilgrims "founding fathers" as it would be to call the Native Americans "founding fathers."

The founding fathers are the people directly responsible for the construction of the United States government, that is they played some role in creating our government from scratch, such as those people Vp quoted.

Originally posted by Leper
Alright, I completely agree with and enjoyed Vile's posting, but I'm sorry, you DO need a little more fire and brimstone for Beirut's response.

Perhaps you simply made a mistake in not defining "founding fathers," but it seems as ridiculous to me to call the pilgrims "founding fathers" as it would be to call the Native Americans "founding fathers."

The founding fathers are the people directly responsible for the construction of the United States government, that is they played some role in creating our government from scratch, such as those people Vp quoted.
That would be the Framers of The Constitution.
Founder would be those that drew up the first document to settle the country. The Mayflower Compact........
And by the way the second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence refers to the creator.

Originally posted by Beirut_Veteran
That would be the Framers of The Constitution.
Founder would be those that drew up the first document to settle the country. The Mayflower Compact........
And by the way the second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence refers to the creator.

Not that limited but close. I'm including people who were part of the first U.S. government before the Constitution existed, not just people who created the Constitution. Not that that changes the fact that including the pilgrims in that definition is bordering on absurd.

To keep the Pilgrims and Puritans out of the definition of Founders is what is absurd, also including Native Americans is ok, as well as the French, Spanish and even Nords. Any one who settled the country is a founder, but to say that the Founding Fathers were not religious is the most absurd statement yet.
Many writting of the Founders and Framers reference God or Creator, many sections of the early government was inlfluenced by God.

the purtians came here for religous freedom and then proceeeded to persecute anyone who wasn't a puritan. they weren't particularly tolerant themselves.
BV: the declaration of independence, though lovely, has nothing to do with out actual government. all it said was that we were no longer associated with Britain, it didn't establish the way our government functions.
the founders of our government seemed very much products of he enlightenment. I think they had it right when they founded this country, and the rules they set down still work very well tday. if our government followed everything the constitution meant our country would be a lovely place.

In the original post in this thread I wrote:

I will make no attempt to define who exactly the members are of that group known as the "founding fathers". If you think they were instrumental in founding this country, feel free to discuss their views.

That statement notwithstanding, I think it's incorrect to include the Puritans and the Pilgrims in a discussion of the "founding fathers" for a number of reasons.

First, the Puritans and Pilgrims did not found a "country", they founded colonies that were subservient to England. This country didn't come into existence until it declared its independence from England, and the thirteen colonies became the United States of America.

Secondly, this country wasn't founded on a geographical basis but an ideological one. What I mean to say is that this country didn't become a country because the thirteen former colonies decided to form a union, it became a country when the thirteen colonies decided to adopt a new set of ideas, a new form of government very different from the one under which they were formerly ruled. Those ideas are not found in the colonies formed by the Puritans and Pilgrims, indeed, as WhammyBar pointed out, the Puritans formed a colony that was very oppressive to non-Puritans.

When we talk about the founding of this country, two documents are always mentioned, The Declaration of Independence, and The Constitution. They aren't the only documents, but they are the most important.

BV, you mentioned that the Declaration of Independence refers to a "creator" and indeed it does, but the Declaration really didn't "found" this country, it was basically a letter of intent. In actuality it was the means by which we broke our ties to England. I think it's important to note that it wasn't just a statement of facts, it was also written in such a way as to make war inevitable, and this was no accident. The rebel leaders knew that there were many citizens of the colonies that were totally against the independence movement, so they phrased the Declaration of Independence as a personal insult to the English crown. They knew that George III would send troops, and institute more oppressive policies towards the colonies, and this would win supporters for the rebels. While the Declaration of Independence was important in the sequence of events that led to the formation of the U.S., it in itself did nothing to establish the government we now have.

Of far more importance to the formation of this country was the Constitution, and if the founders of this country wanted to found a nation based on the idea of "God", they certainly dropped the ball by not mentioning him anywhere in the document. Indeed, it seems clear that this was done intentionally.

When it came time to write the Bill of Rights, the very first thought on the minds of the founders was to keep religion out of government.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


This idea is mentioned in the first sentence of the first amendment because they wanted to found a country that was not founded on religion, or the belief in God, or any other deity, but rather on the idea of individual liberty.

Originally posted by Beirut_Veteran
To keep the Pilgrims and Puritans out of the definition of Founders is what is absurd, also including Native Americans is ok, as well as the French, Spanish and even Nords. Any one who settled the country is a founder, but to say that the Founding Fathers were not religious is the most absurd statement yet.
Many writting of the Founders and Framers reference God or Creator, many sections of the early government was inlfluenced by God.

Yes, and Adam and Eve are "founding fathers" for giving birth to the anscestors of the people who settled America. Oh yeah, I'm a founding father too because I helped settle the country. *eye roll* Oh yeah, I'm an atheist, so clearly some of the founding fathers were atheists and hence, not religious as you claim.

Why do you even bother using the term "founding father" when you could more clearly get your point across by saying "any person who lives or ever has lived"?

Originally posted by Leper
Yes, and Adam and Eve are "founding fathers" for giving birth to the anscestors of the people who settled America. Oh yeah, I'm a founding father too because I helped settle the country. *eye roll* Oh yeah, I'm an atheist, so clearly some of the founding fathers were atheists and hence, not religious as you claim.

Why do you even bother using the term "founding father" when you could more clearly get your point across by saying "any person who lives or ever has lived"?
Could you possibly be anymore absurd?
The people who settled this country can be called founders, but I dont think you are old enough to be a founder. As for you rsuggestion that the Framers were not religious I suggest you look closer at the second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence, the word Creator is used and of Course Jefferson based the writing on other religious remoarks through history.
SO I would say that you might be wrong or misinformed.

Originally posted by Beirut_Veteran
Could you possibly be anymore absurd?
The people who settled this country can be called founders, but I dont think you are old enough to be a founder. As for you rsuggestion that the Framers were not religious I suggest you look closer at the second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence, the word Creator is used and of Course Jefferson based the writing on other religious remoarks through history.
SO I would say that you might be wrong or misinformed.

BV, I think it's obvious that Leper was being absurd to make a point. :rolleyes:

If we are talking about the people who helped form the system of government we now enjoy, that would not include the puritans, so let's leave that group of religious zealots out of the discussion...ok?

Since you seem to be avoiding the real issue here, can you tell me why the Constitution, the document that actually lays out the system of government we follow, does not mention God, a Creator, Buddha, Allah, Zoroaster, Vishnu, Zeus, Odin, Osiris, or any other deity? Do you think it was an oversight by these "religious" men?

Why does the Declaration of Independence mention it? And why did George Washington, a man that was a framer and founder say this when asked by congress to establish a national day of thanks;
" I call on Americans to celebrate the many favors of Almighty God especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness. "

Or did Jefferson use Cicero as an inspiration for the founding documents all based on this statement of Cicero ;

"And there will not be different laws at Rome and at Athens, or different laws now and in the future, but one eternal and unchangeable law will be valid for all nations and for all times, and there will be one master and one rule, that is, God, over us all, for He is the author of this law, its promulgator, and its enforcing judge."

I am sure that these were men who believed in God. It is apparent in these quotes by the men themselves.

BV, yes...many of the framers believed in God. The point is that they went out of their way to found a form of government that was not based on Chistianity, or any other religion, and this is evident in the words of the Constitution.

If Jefferson was so keen on the idea that all laws flow from god, why did he not mention him in the Constitution?


Why does the Declaration of Independence mention it? And why did George Washington, a man that was a framer and founder say this when asked by congress to establish a national day of thanks;

BV, we've already discussed the Declaration of Independence, and I've stated my opinion that while it's an important document from our history, it did NOT set up our government, it was merely a statement of our intent to the King of England, and it was also written to provoke war. As to George Washington...

A. He had nothing to do with the formation of our government or writing the Constitution...he was general

B. His request to honor God by instituting a day of thanksgiving was denied

The request was not denied, it was congress that asked and it was done.

As for not mentioning God in the Constitution that is obvious.
THe Declaration is an expression of beliefs and values for a people who want to be free, so God was mentioned.
The Constitution is a document to set up the laws and system of government and of course God is not part of our government but Vile this is not the topic of this thread, you said that our Founding Fathers were not religious men but it is obvious they were. Jefferson was a man who was influenced by many men some religious some not.
It is self evident


Nowlets look at some quote of Jefferson, Franklin and Adams

Jefferson;

"I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

* Letter to Dr. Benjamin Rush (Sept. 23,1800)

can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did.

* Letter to John Adams (April 11, 1823)


Franklin;


God grant that not only the love of liberty but a thorough knowledge of the rights of man may pervade all the nations of the earth, so that a philosopher may set his foot anywhere on its surface and say: This is my country.

Adams;



“The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity…I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and the attributes of God.”
[June 28, 1813; Letter to Thomas Jefferson]


“We recognize no Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!”


"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798


“[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
[letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress]



I believe that these quotes from members of the continetal congress show a definate religious belief of the founding fathers.

BV, regardless of their religious beliefs, they understood that it was in our nations best interest to create a Government that was founded on freedom OF religion. We left England to escape religious pressures, and in return wanted to create a Government that was based on no religion. Yes, they were religious people, but they understood the importance of making our government non-religious. The Constitution created the basis for our Government and nowhere in it, does it show our country being a religious one or based on religion. Proving that the founding of our nation was non-religious.

Does this sound familiar to anyone?


First, a couple of notes. I started this thread in the History forum, rather than Religion, because (hopefully), we will be discussing the beliefs of people from history, not the correctness of those beliefs.

Second, I will make no attempt to define who exactly the members are of that group known as the "founding fathers". If you think they were instrumental in founding this country, feel free to discuss their views.


So I guess all of my comments were and are on topic....



“The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity…I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and the attributes of God.”
[June 28, 1813; Letter to Thomas Jefferson]


“We recognize no Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!”


"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798


“[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
[letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress]
Point out the part where Adams was trying seperate God and Country... I dont think you can.

By the way Vile, you said that it didnt matter who I thougt the founder were... hmmmm. I guess I was right there too...

::::: Pitch fork aiming at vile:::::


:D

Originally posted by Beirut_Veteran
The request was not denied, it was congress that asked and it was done.

My mistake. I stand corrected.

THe Declaration is an expression of beliefs and values for a people who want to be free, so God was mentioned.

To be precise the DoI mentions "Nature's god" and the "Creator"

The Constitution is a document to set up the laws and system of government and of course God is not part of our government but Vile this is not the topic of this thread, you said that our Founding Fathers were not religious men but it is obvious they were.

Actually that's not correct. What I wrote at the beginning of this thread was:

There have been many things said about this country's founders, and their intentions when they set about creating the United States. I am constantly amazed and bothered by the contentions of some, usually to the right politically and religiously, that this country was founded as a Christian nation.

I don't think that contention is supported by the facts.

The topic of this thread was not about whether the founders were religious, but rather, whether their intention was to found a religious nation.

Vile, can you explain Adams comments if they did not found this nation as a nation on the principals of God?



“The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity…I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and the attributes of God.”
[June 28, 1813; Letter to Thomas Jefferson]


“We recognize no Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!”


"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798


“[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
[letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress]




And read your first two paragraphs, said it didnt matter who we thought were founders and also that we were discussing their religion... But above the quotes state that Adams and Jefferson saw this as a nation of God.

Originally posted by Beirut_Veteran
Vile, can you explain Adams comments if they did not found this nation as a nation on the principals of God?

Well, Adams also said this:

"The 'divinity' of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find Christianity encumbered with."

"I believe in no such thing [eternal damnation]. My adoration of the author of the Universe is too profound and too sincere. The love of God and his creation--delight, joy, triumph, exultation in my own existence--though but an atom, a molecule organique, in the Universe--these are my religion."

And Adams ratified a treaty which stated:

“As the government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself not character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musslemen [Muslims] . . . it is declared . . . that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”


And read your first two paragraphs, said it didnt matter who we thought were founders and also that we were discussing their religion... But above the quotes state that Adams and Jefferson saw this as a nation of God.

Beirut...come on...we addressed the issue of the Puritans and Pilgrims when I poked you with the red-hot pitchfork remember? Early in the thread I admitted that I was not really thinking about them when I started the thread.

And I would say that the above quotes make Adams' position a little less clear on the subject, don't you think?

Isnt that quote, John Quincy Adams? I am not sure.

Originally posted by Beirut_Veteran
Isnt that quote, John Quincy Adams? I am not sure.
No, I Googled it, and all results point to John Adams.

Let's not forget the Treaty of Tripoli, which Adams also signed...
The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
No, I Googled it, and all results point to John Adams.

Let's not forget the Treaty of Tripoli, which Adams also signed...

ummm...that's the treaty I was quoting...

Originally posted by Vilepagan
ummm...that's the treaty I was quoting...
Whoops! Wasn't paying any attention to that, I was focusing on the first quote...

Here are some more thoughts by the man who penned the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson:

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one he must more approve of the homage of Reason than of blindfolded fear . . . [N]aturally examine, first the religion of your own country. Read the Bible . . . For example, in the book of Joshua we are told the sun stood for several hours . . . it is said that the writer of that book was inspired.

"Examine, therefore, candidly, what evidence there is of his having been inspired. The pretension is entitled to . . . inquiry, because millions believe it.

"On the other hand . . . it is contrary to the laws of Nature . . . [R]ead the New Testament. It is the history of a personage called Jesus. Keep in your eye the opposite pretensions: 1, Of those who say he was begotten of God, born of a virgin, suspended and reversed the laws of Nature at will, and ascended bodily into heaven; and 2, Of those who say he was a man of illegitimate birth, of a benevolent heart, enthusiastic mind, who wet out with pretensions to divinity; ended in believing them, and was punished capitally for sedition, by being gibbeted, according to the Roman law . . .

"Do not be frightened from this inquiry by an fear of consequences. If it ends in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you will feel in its exercise, and the love of others which it will procure you.

"If you find reason to believe there is a God, a consciousness that you are acting under his eye, and that he approves you, will be a vast additional incitement; if that Jesus was also a God, you will be comforted by a belief of his aid and love. Your own reason is the only oracle given you by heaven; and you are answerable, not for the rightness, but uprightness, of the decision."

Doesn't sound like a man who believed that this was a nation that is subservient to God.


"The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ leveled to every understanding, and too plain to need explanation, saw in the mysticisms of Plato materials with which they might build up an artificial system, which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order and introduce it to profit, power and preeminence."

Jefferson on the concept of a "Trinity".

“The hocus-pocus phantasm of a God, like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads, has its birth and growth in the blood of thousands and thousands of martyrs.”

And:

“It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticism that three are one, and one is three, and yet, that the one is not three, and the three are not one. But this constitutes the craft, the power, and the profits of the priest. Sweep away their gossamer fabrics of fictitious religion, and they would catch no more flies.”

On the Bible and Christianity:

"If we could believe that he [Jesus] really countenanced the follies, the falsehoods, and the charlatanisms which his biographers [Matthew, Mark, Luke and John] father on him, and admit the misconstructions, interpolations, and theorizations of the fathers of the early, and the fanatics of the latter, ages, the conclusion would be irresistible by every sound mind that he was an imposter."

And:

"Question with boldness the existence of God. I do not believe any of the Christian doctrines. The greatest enemies of Jesus are the doctrines and creeds of the church. It would be more pardonable to believe in no God at all then to blaspheme him by the atrocious writings of the theologians. John Calvin was a demon and malignant spirit."

Here are two quotes about Christianity and religion in general:


"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythology."


"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Mineva in the brain of Jupiter."

On the subject of religion and government:

“Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious exercise, or to assume authority in religious discipline, has been delegated to the General Government.”


“Believing . . . that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and state.”


"[W]e may safely affirm (though contradicted by all the judges and writers on earth) that Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law."

In refusing to issue a Thanksgiving proclamation during his eight years as U.S. President, Jefferson declared:

"I consider the Government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution of the United States from meddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises . . . But it is only proposed that I should recommend, not prescribe, a day of fasting and praying. That is, I should indirectly assume to the United States an authority over religious exercises, which the Constitution has directly precluded them from . . . Every one must act according to the dictates of his own reason and mine tells me that civil powers alone have been given the President of the United States, and no authority to direct the religious exercise of his constituents."

I think it's very clear that from these writings, and others, that Thomas Jefferson, although he may have believed in a supreme being, had no love for the church or organized religion of any kind. To suggest that he would have approved of our government promoting any religious notions whatsoever is to ignore the evidence.

I have no love for any church or religious group. But I do believe in God, and I thought we were discussing the framers beliefs not affiliations.
Anyway I have never said we were founded upon religion only that we are a nation whose founder believed in God and those beliefs are part of my heritage.
As for the Treaty of Tripoli an expressed beilef in God by the part of this nation would have led us into a holy war that we could not have won.

Originally posted by Beirut_Veteran
I have no love for any church or religious group. But I do believe in God, and I thought we were discussing the framers beliefs not affiliations.

Again, this thread was started to discuss whether or not this nation was founded as a religious nation, but feel free to discuss the beliefs of the framers.

Anyway I have never said we were founded upon religion only that we are a nation whose founder believed in God and those beliefs are part of my heritage.

So is a belief in witches.

As for the Treaty of Tripoli an expressed beilef in God by the part of this nation would have led us into a holy war that we could not have won.

Really?...A holy war with who?

Originally posted by Beirut_Veteran
Anyway I have never said we were founded upon religion only that we are a nation whose founder believed in God and those beliefs are part of my heritage.
Our founders also believed it was right to own slaves.

Borg, thats not quite the same thing. The thread is about the founders religious beliefs.

Vile, I am attempting to get info to support my opinion but having problems navigating the web, it seem to be broken LOL Damn Al Gore for his invention :D

Ok found the link to the full treaty

Barbary Treaties (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1796t.htm)


Vile I see that you quoted Article 11 of the treaty but not the rest of the treaty.
The treaty clearly states that we paid the Barbary Coast off so that we could conduct free trade in the region. Also it was demanded that we could not be a nation oppossed to Muslims or a threat to their religion.
SO to answer your question on a holy war with whom, it would be the Barbary Pirates and their desire to attack most non-muslim navies unless a ransom was paid.
The link I posted shows both sides of the treaty including the ransoms we paid for the right to sail upon the med sea.

Originally posted by Beirut_Veteran
Ok found the link to the full treaty

Barbary Treaties (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1796t.htm)


Vile I see that you quoted Article 11 of the treaty but not the rest of the treaty.

Yep, the rest of the treaty was irrelevant to the topic at hand.

The treaty clearly states that we paid the Barbary Coast off so that we could conduct free trade in the region. Also it was demanded that we could not be a nation oppossed to Muslims or a threat to their religion.

Ok

SO to answer your question on a holy war with whom, it would be the Barbary Pirates and their desire to attack most non-muslim navies unless a ransom was paid.


I suspect they were pirates because they wanted to rob people not because they wanted to spread islam. Their decision to not attack Muslim navies was a strictly practical one.

Well we called them pirates they called themselves warriors. We bought them off and admitted we were not christian as they would have attacked our young navy. SO maybe since adams was also the one who said we were founded on Christianity he was just saying what they wanted hear. He made his other comments in a private letter.

Ok...maybe Adams was dissembling with the Pirates...

I wonder what he meant when he wrote this:

"The 'divinity' of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find Christianity encumbered with."

I have read that, it was in reference to a church that wanted him to join, he, like Jefferson was a man who didnt want to be affiliated to any church.

Your opening post vile states that you didnt believe the founding fathers to have a belief in any God and that was what we were discussing, well it is apparent that at least two of them did believe in God but were not affiliated with any church.

Adams said it many times in his private letters to Jefferson and others, as did Jefferson.
These men were not comfortable with open display of religion or any open displays or personal convictions.
And when you said in an earlier post that Washington was not a founding father that would have been incorrect, he was more than a General he was also a member of the founding fathers. He was asked to lead the Army against the British.
To exclude Washington would mean to exclude, Hancock, Franklin and even Adams.

Originally posted by Beirut_Veteran
I have read that, it was in reference to a church that wanted him to join, he, like Jefferson was a man who didnt want to be affiliated to any church.

In the quote he talks about "Christianity" not a church, so I don't understand why you think he was referring to a church that someone wanted him to join.

Your opening post vile states that you didnt believe the founding fathers to have a belief in any God and that was what we were discussing, well it is apparent that at least two of them did believe in God but were not affiliated with any church.

Beirut, you've made that statemnet several times in this thread and I've corrected you each time. It's getting a little tiresome. Reread my opening post again. I never said that these men didn't believe in God, I said that their intention was not to create a Christian nation.

Adams said it many times in his private letters to Jefferson and others, as did Jefferson.

Said what?

And when you said in an earlier post that Washington was not a founding father that would have been incorrect, he was more than a General he was also a member of the founding fathers.

Perhaps....what was his contribution to the formation of our government?

He was asked to lead the Army against the British.

Ummm...doesn't that make him a General?

To exclude Washington would mean to exclude, Hancock, Franklin and even Adams.

Why?...Were they generals too? Or was Franklin a diplomat who, more than anyone, was responsible for getting the French to assist us. Didn't Franklin print many pro-independence tracts in his print shop? Didn't John Hancock sign the Declaration of Independence? wasn't Adams one of the driving forces behind the independence movement?

Really Beirut, that last statement defies all logic.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
First, a couple of notes. I started this thread in the History forum, rather than Religion, because (hopefully), we will be discussing the beliefs of people from history, not the correctness of those beliefs.

Second, I will make no attempt to define who exactly the members are of that group known as the "founding fathers". If you think they were instrumental in founding this country, feel free to discuss their views.

There have been many things said about this country's founders, and their intentions when they set about creating the United States. I am constantly amazed and bothered by the contentions of some, usually to the right politically and religiously, that this country was founded as a Christian nation.

I don't think that contention is supported by the facts.

Some quotes from men who were instrumental in creating this nation.

George Washington:

“Every man, conducting himself as a good citizen, and being accountable to God alone for his religious opinion, ought to be protected in worshipping th Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience.”

The Treaty of Tripoli was written while George washington was President. It states:

“As the government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself not character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musslemen [Muslims] . . . it is declared . . . that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”

(perhaps we should not forget this treaty today)

Thomas Paine:

“The character of Moses is the most horrid tale that can be imagined. Moses was a wretch that committed the most horrible atrocities that can be found in the literature of any nation. ‘For Moses said unto them (according to the Bible), kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known a man by lying with him, but al the women that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.’

“Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to ‘God’ to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare to dishonor my Creator’s name by [attaching] it to this filthy book. Men and books lie. Only nature does not lie.”

James Madison:

“Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”

“Besides the danger of a direct mixture of religion and civil government, there is an evil which ought to be guarded against in the indefinite accumulation of property from the capacity of holding it in perpetuity by ecclesiastical corporations.

“The establishment of the chaplainship in Congress is a palpable violation of equal rights as well as of Constitutional principles.

“The danger of silent accumulations and encroachments by ecclesiastical bodies has not sufficiently engaged attention in the U.S.”

John Adams:

"The 'divinity' of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find Christianity encumbered with."

"I believe in no such thing [eternal damnation]. My adoration of the author of the Universe is too profound and too sincere. The love of God and his creation--delight, joy, triumph, exultation in my own existence--though but an atom, a molecule organique, in the Universe--these are my religion."

The are many more quotes like this from different people, but I think they, and the documents that founded this nation, show that this nation was founded by an enlightened group of men who believed in a variety of things, but most agreed that they did not want to found a "christian" nation.

Ok in this post you say you are not going to define who the founders were.

Also you quote the man you said isnt a founder. Maybe you should reread your post.
But you asked me what contribution Washington made to the formation of the country and here is a line from an abbreviated biography..

After 1769, Washington became a leader in Virginia's opposition to Great Britain's colonial policies. At first he hoped for reconciliation with Britain, although some British policies had touched him personally. Discrimination against colonial military officers had rankled deeply, and British land policies and restrictions on western expansion after 1763 had seriously hindered his plans for western land speculation. In addition, he shared the usual planter's dilemma in being continually in debt to his London agents. As a delegate (1774-75) to the First and Second Continental Congress, Washington did not participate actively in the deliberations, but his presence was undoubtedly a stabilizing influence. In June 1775 he was Congress's unanimous choice as commander in chief of the Continental forces.
I believe my posts stand by themselves in reference to your opening post.

Originally posted by Beirut_Veteran

Also you quote the man you said isnt a founder. Maybe you should reread your post.
But you asked me what contribution Washington made to the formation of the country and here is a line from an abbreviated biography..

Actually BV, I have no problem with considering george washington as a founder if it makes you happy. :-)

I believe my posts stand by themselves in reference to your opening post.

Except you keep telling me that I said these men didn't believe in God...

You haven't said why you believe they intended to found a "christian nation".