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Liberal 4 Life
05-14-2004, 12:14 PM
WASHINGTON - Voters may not yet be ready to flock to challenger John Kerry, but President Bush’s continuing decline in opinion surveys — including one released Wednesday — is a clear warning sign for an incumbent trying to persuade the public to rehire him for four more years, pollsters say.

A new Pew Research Center poll Wednesday showed Bush’s approval rating at 44 percent, down from 48 percent a month ago and 58 percent in January. While the poll gives Kerry a 50-45 lead over Bush in a two-way race with a 2.5-point margin of error, his lead narrows to 46-43 when Ralph Nader is included.

But writing in an op-ed piece in the New York Times on Wednesday, Pew director Andrew Kohut said, “There is no reason to expect a one-to-one relationship between public disaffection with the incumbent and an immediate surge in public support for his challenger.” First, Kohut said, voters will “decide whether the incumbent deserves re-election; only later do they think about whether it is worth taking a chance on the challenger.”

Wednesday’s poll is just one of several recent polls that show Bush’s approval ratings slipping below 50 percent amid growing doubts among voters about his handling of the war in Iraq and of the economy.

Today show
Growing majorities believe the country is headed in the wrong direction, a traditional early indicator of the electorate’s mood.

'Dangerous territory'
“He is in dangerous territory now,” pollster John Zogby said of Bush.

Frank Newport, editor in chief of the Gallup poll, said Bush’s slowly sinking job approval rating, down to 46 percent in his latest survey, was similar to the dropping trajectory of the last three incumbents to lose their elections -- George Bush, the current president’s father, Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford.

In contrast, the five most recent incumbent presidents who won their elections never dipped below 50 percent in their job approval rating at any point in the election year, he said.

“The Bush campaign has to be concerned and worried at this point,” Newport said. “When you look at the trend, you certainly see that Bush is beginning to track the trajectory of the three losing presidents rather than the winners.”

The 46 percent who approved of Bush’s handling of the job in Monday’s Gallup poll was the lowest of his presidency. An NBC/Wall St. Journal poll last week put his approval rating at 47 percent, with 49 percent saying he did not deserve re-election and 50 percent saying the country was headed in the wrong direction.

Low approval and re-election numbers are particularly bad for an incumbent, who already is well known to voters. Undecided voters, who have had plenty of time to evaluate the incumbent, often break heavily for the challenger.

Growing disapproval
Polls have found growing majorities of Americans, confronted daily with depressing pictures of death in Iraq and abuse of Iraqi prisoners, disapprove of Bush’s handling of Iraq and of the economy.

Pew pollsters found that “the Iraqi prison scandal has registered powerfully with the public — fully 76 percent say they have seen pictures depicting mistreatment of Iraqis by U.S. soldiers. There also has been a sharp rise in the number of Americans who think the military effort in Iraq is going badly. For the first time, a majority of Americans (51 percent) say the war is not going well and the percentage saying the war was the right decision continues to inch downward. The survey was conducted before release of a videotape showing the decapitation of an American in Iraq. For all that, however, public sentiment continues to run against an immediate withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq. By 53-42 percent, Americans favor keeping the troops there until a stable government is established. That number has changed little since early April, after four U.S. contractors were murdered and their bodied desecrated.”

Today show
The plummeting faith in Bush’s Iraq policies threaten to turn one of his strengths — his leadership in a time of war — into a weakness, while voters rank the struggling economy as the nation’s biggest problem but have little faith that Bush can fix it.

Despite signs of renewed job growth and economic expansion, voters are still pessimistic and worried about jobs, inflation and slumping stock markets, pollsters said. The NBC poll found 60 percent thought the economy would be in trouble in the future.

“It takes some pretty sustained good news for public perceptions of the economy to pick up,” said poll analyst Karlyn Bowman of the American Enterprise Institute.

That could be particularly worrisome for Bush, who saw his father’s 1992 re-election bid founder on voter worries about the economy — even as economic indicators already were beginning to improve.

The Bush campaign, where pollster Matthew Dowd has frequently predicted Bush’s ratings would fall, said the recent numbers were not a cause for alarm.

'Polls will fluctuate'
“We understand that polls will fluctuate. The most important poll happens on Nov. 2,” said Scott Stanzel, a campaign spokesman. “We have always said the election will be close —potentially as close as 2000.”

Kohut of the Pew center pointed out in his Times piece that the lack of a direct correlation between an incumbent’s decline in the polls and a challenger’s ascent was “the same … in the 1980 race. President Jimmy Carter's favorable rating in the Gallup surveys sank from 56 percent in January to 38 percent in June, yet he still led Ronald Reagan in Gallup's horse-race measures. For much of the rest of the campaign, voters who disapproved of Mr. Carter couldn't decide whether Mr. Reagan was an acceptable alternative.”

“Similarly,” Kohut wrote, “in May 1992 President George H. W. Bush had only a 37 percent approval rating according to a Times Mirror Center survey, but the same poll showed him with a modest lead, 46 percent to 43 percent, over Bill Clinton. Only the Democratic convention and the debates brought about an acceptance of Mr. Clinton.”
© 2004 MSNBC Interactive

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4962832/#survey

DansantCaparet
05-14-2004, 01:14 PM
President Bush is finding himself in a lot of trouble…
The Republicans will be out…soon enough

Travh20
05-14-2004, 04:44 PM
its funny how the only time polls are ever mentioned is when they go long with your agenda, kine of like how we never hear about the economy anymore, when a few months ago it was the thing that was going to cost bush the election, now I guess its the panties on the head pictures, after that gets beaten to the ground and people get sick of crying over "attrocities" commited against al qeada and fedayeen prisoners it will be something else.

DansantCaparet
05-14-2004, 04:46 PM
I thought Republicans don't believe Liberal Media?

Don't take notice to these polls, because they are just lies, remember?

Don't get so worked up. We lying liberals created them, so they aren’t really valid.

LionelHutz
05-14-2004, 06:04 PM
Bush has definitely got a problem on his hands. On the other hand, what does it say about Kerry that he can't take advantage of the situation at all? One has to wonder how a viable (i.e. not Nader) candidate would do this year?

Some talking head on TV made a good point today - this election, like no other election in recent memory, is probably going to be determined almost completely by outside factors. The economy, the Iraq situation, whether Osama is found, gas prices, etc.

And now back to our regularly scheduled partisan rhetoric . . .

DansantCaparet
05-14-2004, 06:08 PM
The only reason Kerry hasn’t taken advantage of this situation is because less is sometimes better. The less he speaks about the Iraq war, the less attacks he will receive from the hard-core Republicans. While Bush keeps on speaking, talking and the Iraq occupation is just growing worse.

Kerry does not need to say anything; Americans can see it for themselves…with Bush’s 41% approval rating of the Iraq war. Kerry is waiting to strike, and he will. He just isn’t going to say something rash, without thinking about it first.

Again, he is still beating Bush by I believe 5%…so no matter what Kerry is doing a fine job.

DrewM
05-14-2004, 10:22 PM
If there is constant bad news coming out of Iraq - or low level bad news that just drags on and on - people will get tired and start longing for a change. Kerry could easily win a landslide.

People are not focused on the election much yet. The Bush camp tried for a knock out punch to define Kerry before he could. I don't think they succeeded in doing anything except wasting a huge % of their war chest. Bad news crowded out any political message.

Give it 3 or 4 months and people will start looking closely at Kerry. He might screw it up, but Bush is the one with the fight.

DanF
05-15-2004, 12:21 AM
Hard to put much faith in polls. Polls never elected anyone.
I look for some turn arounds in the war in the next few months.
Hopefully for the better.
Gas prices will probably come down after summer, as it always does. They just burn us during vacation time.
If they are smart gas will go up to 3 bucks a gallon then drop to 2 buck and we will say "boy I am sure glad regular gas is only 2 bucks a gallon." :D

DrewM
05-15-2004, 12:24 AM
You'd be suprised - there are polls that have a remarkable record of accuracy

Show me one President re-elected in the last 100 years that was running below 50% approval rating at this point.

DanF
05-15-2004, 01:44 AM
Drew I was thinking more about Nixon leading Kennedy in polls on Labor Day 1960. Then of 69 million votes cast Kennedy won by slightly more than 100,000 votes. While Kennedy held a wider margin in the electorial college, A shift of about 12000 votes in five or six states would have given Nixon the victory.

Interesting isn't it. If 12000 votes had shifted Kennedy might be alive. Nixon might not have been "tricky Dicky". :)

Lungdop Philing
05-15-2004, 02:46 PM
Bush was at 42 in one of the polls this morning -- think it was Newsweek -- not sure.

He's slightly below his father's numbers at this point and slightly ahead of where Jimmy Carter was. If his number do a LBJ, dip into the 30's, the republican party will drop him.

Who they would run I could only guess -- maybe Frist.

Dop

Sugarcube
05-15-2004, 09:13 PM
You've all just got to admit it to yourselves that Bush s-c-r-e-w-e-d.

I mean, do you all really think that the American people are cold enough to stand for the torture of those Iraqi prisoners?

Bush knowingly elected bastards like Rumsfield, who have criminal backgrounds. Short though those records may be, criminals will be criminals.

And yes, the prisoners who were tortured were mostly criminals themselves, but torturing them for torturing others is complete bull.

Take a quote from Gandhi:
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

DansantCaparet
05-15-2004, 09:26 PM
Sugarcube Welcome! Great post!;)

LionelHutz
05-16-2004, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by DansantCaparet
Sugarcube Welcome! Great post!;)

Yeah, except for the part where he/she thinks Rumsfeld was "elected." Why is everyone so damned partisan?

DansantCaparet
05-16-2004, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by LionelHutz
Yeah, except for the part where he/she thinks Rumsfeld was "elected." Why is everyone so damned partisan?

Bush put him in the cabinet right? So it was Bush’s decision to place Rumsfield into the Administration, furthering he elected Rumsfield to the position. I may be incorrect on this, but from my understanding that’s how it works.

The Republican
05-16-2004, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by DansantCaparet
Bush put him in the cabinet right? So it was Bush’s decision to place Rumsfield into the Administration, furthering he elected Rumsfield to the position. I may be incorrect on this, but from my understanding that’s how it works.

Elected means people voted you in. Selection means you were picked. A President's cabinet is selected by him and confirmed by the house and senate.

As for the poll numbers this election is going to be nothing like history. Everything about it is going to be new and unpredictable. The poll numbers do not bother me because even though they are getting worse, and we have had the worst news out of Iraq in a while, Kerry is still unable to capitalize on it. To me that says something about the man.

DansantCaparet
05-16-2004, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by The Republican
Elected means people voted you in. Selection means you were picked. A President's cabinet is selected by him and confirmed by the house and senate.


Oh lord, it still does not change the fact it was President Bush's decision, and that decision proves Bush's incapability of making good decisions. For Rumsfield approved the Iraqi Integration (Abuse), and Bush still says he is doing a “suburb job”, which is just shocking. Just because "elected" isn't the right terminology, it still does not change the fact that it was Bush's decision, a decision that makes Bush, himself, look bad.


Originally posted by The Republican
As for the poll numbers this election is going to be nothing like history. Everything about it is going to be new and unpredictable. The poll numbers do not bother me because even though they are getting worse, and we have had the worst news out of Iraq in a while, Kerry is still unable to capitalize on it. To me that says something about the man.

Kerry is ahead in a lot of the polls by at least 5%. So to say he isn’t capitalizing on it, is just false. He isn’t taking advantage of it, as much as he could, but he is still ahead in most of the polls. Also, if you think about it, Bush has spent more money on Ads, yet Kerry is still ahead.

So once Kerry starts using all the money he is raising, he will be able to widen his led. The reason he hasn’t done this yet, is because it’s still a long ways away from November. Kerry understands it’s pointless to waste money now, since it’s so far away.

The Republican
05-16-2004, 03:43 PM
DansantCaparet

You, yourself, said you might have been incorrect in your understanding of how the cabinet is chosen. Excuse me for clarifying it for you. Not once did I ever mention that it was not Bush's decision...clearly from my post you can see that I am fully aware that the cabinet is his to select. Why you had to go off onto a tanget I never brought up is beyond me and I will never clarify anything for you in the future if this is how you are going to respond.

Kerry is ahead in some polls but behind in others. In key battleground states Bush still holds a 5-7% lead over Kerry. Kerry should be doing a lot better than he is and has not yet been able to define himself as different than the flip-flopper the Republicans already have. And Bush may have spent more money than Kerry, but when you factor in the 527 groups that have been attacking Bush more money has been spent against Bush than for him. Also Bush has just broken the $200 million mark and since the FEC is not going to rule for or against the 527 groups you are going to see a lot more money from Republican donors circumventing the campaign finance laws like the democrats have with theirs. Either way this election is going to get very ugly and this is only the tip of the iceberg.

DansantCaparet
05-16-2004, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by The Republican
You, yourself, said you might have been incorrect in your understanding of how the cabinet is chosen. Excuse me for clarifying it for you. Not once did I ever mention that it was not Bush's decision...clearly from my post you can see that I am fully aware that the cabinet is his to select. Why you had to go off onto a tanget I never brought up is beyond me and I will never clarify anything for you in the future if this is how you are going to respond.

Sorry for the rant, I was in a bad mood and I admit I said I may be wrong…and thanks for the clarification…but I still don’t think it really makes a difference.

Originally posted by The Republican
Kerry is ahead in some polls but behind in others. In key battleground states Bush still holds a 5-7% lead over Kerry. Kerry should be doing a lot better than he is and has not yet been able to define himself as different than the flip-flopper the Republicans already have. And Bush may have spent more money than Kerry, but when you factor in the 527 groups that have been attacking Bush more money has been spent against Bush than for him. Also Bush has just broken the $200 million mark and since the FEC is not going to rule for or against the 527 groups you are going to see a lot more money from Republican donors circumventing the campaign finance laws like the democrats have with theirs. Either way this election is going to get very ugly and this is only the tip of the iceberg.

Kerry is ahead in almost all of the polls by at least a few percentage points. The last I read Kerry was ahead in the battle ground states, maybe we have conflicting facts? Regardless overall Kerry is mostly ahead.

You haven’t necessarily defined Kerry as a flip-flopped. Maybe among the Right-Wing, loyalists…but on the middle ground you haven’t. The fact is, all the negative Kerry ads have been counter-acted with all the bad news from Iraq. People haven’t been caring, or paying attention to the ads, but the abuse, and everything else in Iraq.

The 527 groups and the Kerry campaign have not raised or matched Bush’s money. Even if you add them all up, Bush is still leading in money raised. Also, Bush has spent more, then the groups and Kerry together. So in terms of now, who has spent more, it is Bush by a long shot…yet Kerry is ahead by a few points in almost every poll I’ve seen.

Lungdop Philing
05-16-2004, 08:09 PM
Bush' hasn't yet had the benefit of the big money and the ads from the NRA. That organisation is intentionally holding back all endorsements until after Bush positions himself on the assault weapon ban which is due to expire in a couple of months.

The NRA was instrumental in bringing in WV, TN and other states in '00 and can do the sam this time with the addition of so called battleground states like AZ.

If the AWB is renewed, you can count on bush being toast -- simple as that.

Dop

DrewM
05-17-2004, 03:33 AM
The key metric to look at the the presidents job approval rating. This has consistently predicted who will win the electiion - even when polls neck & neck ended up being a landslide victory for one party.

If history repeats itself with this measure - Bush is not going to win in Nov.