Shameless PR stunt , not to mention waste of tax payer money, to deflect attention away from the issues.

New York times article sums it up well

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/14/opinion/14FRI1.html?ex=1085112000&en=131cafbf1aab534c&ei=5 062&partner=GOOGLE

YUP and to think about the number of soldiers pulled away from thier much needed posts to guard his butt. Bet all he did was walk through saying "uh huh and yep". It really irratated me also.

Originally posted by DrewM
Shameless PR stunt , not to mention waste of tax payer money, to deflect attention away from the issues.



May have been a PR stunt but having been in a similar situation, after BLT bombing G H W Bush visited, it does raise the moral of the troops and he left them with the message that America believes in them and the job they are doing. I watched his "town hall" meeting with the troops, he brought up the whole scandal and spoke to their fears that they would all be judged in the same light. I know to some this doesnt sound like a lot but when you are in a media vacuum and thousands of miles from home a visit from the Secretary Of Defense and Chairman Joint Chiefs makes you feel special.

After the way soldiers were treated on their return from Vietnam it is important that we accept these young men and women as warriors and tell them we appreciate what they are doing.

How many of the 130,000 soldiers did he meet? He only stayed 8 hours - couldn't even stay for supper.

He should have gone a long time ago - now all of a sudden he goes?

Yeah right - nice one Rummy - but I don't buy it. He should have taken a flight back to the underside of rock he crawled out from.

Originally posted by DrewM
He should have gone a long time ago - now all of a sudden he goes?


I would beg to differ but he has been there before. He may not have meet them all but it will been seen by all over there. It is a tool used by every administration in every war since WW I. Send either the V.P., or a high ranking members of congress or a cabinet member to rally the troops.

Also he toured the prison and saw the location they are relocating it to. He also asked if the building could be torn down.

If Rumsfeld really wanted to help the troops, he would offer a sincere apology for engaging in policies that resulted in their loss of prestige and morale, and then he would resign. He's treading water now, and his visit to Iraq was not about improving the morale of the troops as much as it was to improve his image. If I were a soldier in Iraq I would regard this as adding insult to injury.

dont listen to these armchair generals beruit veteran, they wouldnt know what lifted a troops moral. they think they are such experts in military affairs but have never picked up an m-16 in their lives. these sharks smell blood in the water, and any move is attacked and passed off as shameless nad sad and blah blah blah. its to bad that rumsfeld had to lie to the troops and tell them america is behind them, becasue its clear they are not.

Originally posted by Travh20
dont listen to these armchair generals beruit veteran, they wouldnt know what lifted a troops moral. they think they are such experts in military affairs but have never picked up an m-16 in their lives. these sharks smell blood in the water, and any move is attacked and passed off as shameless nad sad and blah blah blah. its to bad that rumsfeld had to lie to the troops and tell them america is behind them, becasue its clear they are not.

Apparently you don't have anything positive to say about his visit either Trav, since all you did is attack other people's opinions without offering one of your own. You like to disparage other people as armchair generals, when they have offered no military opinion whatever.

Trav, I said nothing bad about the troops, only Rumsfeld. It's too bad you can't see beyond your hatred for all things liberal, or you might have noticed that fact. Does picking up a rifle make one an expert in military affairs?

Originally posted by Travh20
dont listen to these armchair generals beruit veteran, they wouldnt know what lifted a troops moral. they think they are such experts in military affairs but have never picked up an m-16 in their lives. these sharks smell blood in the water, and any move is attacked and passed off as shameless nad sad and blah blah blah. its to bad that rumsfeld had to lie to the troops and tell them america is behind them, becasue its clear they are not.

Oh and I'm sure Bush has done more...? And we should listen to his war decisions? haha

Only a President who hasn't been in a war would say "I Feel Good" on the eve of the Iraq War.

Honestly, Bush, Cheney and Rumsfield all dodged the Vietnam War in one-way or another. So you are going to trust them, but not other military officials?

You're just sad....

Damage control. That's all this was. I don't have to have a position or label of any kind to see what this was. This is the same as the Carrier landing and/or the Thanksgiving dinner. So that the administration could try to say "we're here with you guys" to the troops. Stay for a few hours and beat feet back to D.C.!

I'll tell you what, our troops are the best, no doubt. I support them fully. They do what they are told, when they are told, and how they are told to do it. Additionally, our troops are smart, they know too why Rumsfield was there. Rumsfield would never have been there if the abuse of prisoners hadn't happened. I doubt very much Rumsfield just woke up and said, "I've got to get over there because those guys need to see my support".

I supported the original reasons for Afganistan. I continue to support our troops. I question the way the war in Iraq was addressed, I got the feeling that it was done because we were in the neighborhood and someone said,"Let's swing by Iraq on the way home!"

I don't know anything about warfare, other than its getting our people killed for agroup of citizens who are resenting our continued presence there. I believe that when the country is turned over to it people, another dictator will rise to power and oppress the population. If the people there allow this to happen again, perhaps it is their decision to be subservient.

It is true I have never picked up an M-16, but I don't have to step in manure to know it stinks.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Does picking up a rifle make one an expert in military affairs?

aparantly for kerry it does

Kerry did more then just “pick up a rifle”. He led troops, saved a man’s life, and fought all over Vietnam. Which is more then I can say for Bush.

Trav, don’t twist the fact that Kerry showed leadership through Vietnam, unlike your President’s actions during that time.

If Rummy wants to really show his debts to society, he should be put in a uniform and sent out to experience a day in the life of a REAL soldier. Maybe then he'll understand the pressures.

:rolleyes: I think you all have a twisted sense of who your enemys are. maybe you all need to put on a uniform and go see waht its like to have people like you acting the way you are back here in your cushy computer chairs so easily dismissing everything they do. every man I know who was in iraq or is there now is sick of the backstabbing. this really is turning into vietnam. not becasue of ho chi min trails or anything militarily, but becasue the way the homefron is shaping up to resemble it. college boys who think they know it all deciding whats right and wrong in the world

Originally posted by Travh20
:rolleyes: I think you all have a twisted sense of who your enemys are. maybe you all need to put on a uniform and go see waht its like to have people like you acting the way you are back here in your cushy computer chairs so easily dismissing everything they do. every man I know who was in iraq or is there now is sick of the backstabbing. this really is turning into vietnam. not becasue of ho chi min trails or anything militarily, but becasue the way the homefron is shaping up to resemble it. college boys who think they know it all deciding whats right and wrong in the world

And I don't know people who have gone to Iraq? One of our family friends just got back from the war. He understands that just because people are anti-war, does not mean people are anti-troops. He also understands that people respect the troops, but that it's hard to, when many have created a bad image for the troops in Iraq (Iraqi Abuse). So if the troops you are talking to feel betrayed, they shouldn’t. I fully support the troops, I just don’t support the war, or the bad image some soldiers are giving America.

Originally posted by Travh20
:rolleyes: I think you all have a twisted sense of who your enemys are. maybe you all need to put on a uniform and go see waht its like to have people like you acting the way you are back here in your cushy computer chairs so easily dismissing everything they do. every man I know who was in iraq or is there now is sick of the backstabbing. this really is turning into vietnam. not becasue of ho chi min trails or anything militarily, but becasue the way the homefron is shaping up to resemble it. college boys who think they know it all deciding whats right and wrong in the world

So, what you are saying is nobody should question anything and elected officials and their appointees should basically be free to do anything without any checks and balances?

Talking a country to war is a serious matter, 700 dead soldiers, 10,000 civilians dead is a serious matter, everybody should debate that, everybody should question every aspect of it - even the 'college boys' who may not be serving the country with a M16 but serve the country in other ways equally as crucial to our way of life.

Mostly everybody in the US has the utmost respect for members of armed forces. I imagine that many of those soldiers have many of the same questions. The handful of soldiers you may know is certainly unlikely to be a representative cross section of opinion.

Basically - when you hear any critique of the Bush administration you put on the blindfold and find any way possible to defend them - even when there is really no sound defense.

honestly I could give a crap about the administration, all I care about is the troops. I will back whatever they do 100% no matter what. if they are fighting it doesnt matter why they are there at that point, that should be decided before the war. all that matters is that they get waht they need to do the job right. to me it doesnt matter who is president, unlike some people who seem to base their suport of the US military on who is in the oval office. when the boots are on the ground its time to stop the college boys and their so called important duties

I agree with you 100% about supporting the troops.

I haven't read a single post here where anybody does not support the troops 100%

Don't confuse supporting the troops with not supporting the reasons why they are there. Those are 2 very different things.

in the eyes of the troops on the ground who have to deal with this 24/7 there is no difference between supporting them and not their mission. to them their mission is their life, and not supporting their mission is by default not supporting them. I know you will try and rationalize that they are different, but in reality to them, their mission and their being their are one in the same, not supporting their mission is not supporting them, becasue why else would they be over there?

Well if the troops are upset with questions on the mission - so be it. That cannot be avoided. We cannot blindly never question the mission simply to keep the troops happy.

It's a fairly nonsense argument to say that we should never question the mission. Perhaps a fair and constant questioning of the mission will save some soldiers lives.

I am sure that many of the troops question the mission also. Questioning anything of this magnitude is extremely healthy.

has it never occured to you that an iraqi insurgent seeing our own government attacking its own mission may be emboldened and see victory only a few IED blasts away? it is never good to waver in front of the enemy. in a day and age filled with computers and sattelites it is especially dangerous. there was plenty of talk and debate in the year leading up to the attack. there was a vote and it passed. once it is approved it should be backed 100%. you dont approve it then halfway through change youre mind, that is childish and dangerous. its time to put up a united front and get this thing done. I guarentee you that more then a few troops have been killed by iraqis spurred on by the hope that we are wavering and there is talk of us pulling out. people lile Sadr happen to mention this is our vietnam the day after kennedy says it, thats not a coincidence, he was repeating what the opponents of Bush are saying here. is that kennedy just being patriotic and doing some healthy questioning?

Sorry Trav, newsflash - you live in the USA, not some backward country where nobody has the right to question.

Your train of thought is dangerous. Basically if you don't fall in line and not question anything then a person is un-patriotic or helping the enemy.

I don't buy that logic for 1 second because it goes against everything that America stands for.