I think that it's a terrible atrocity that terrorists commited against Nick Berg. This isn't the first instance where a hostage has been killed since the invasion of Iraq by the U.S.A., and it more than likely won't be the last. The only difference in this killing and some of the previous ones, was the fact that it was videotaped and put on an Internet web site.

From what I've read, this was in revenge for the abuse of the Iraqi prisioners, by the US soldiers. Even the killings where the Americans were burned to death was in revenge. The Iraqis knew about the abuse before the pictures surfaced in America. There will probably be more of these brutal killings now that the American soldiers have shown how evil they are. This is so sad.

Once again Evil is not a phrase to be thrown about lightly. It seems that everyone here wants to condem the soldiers and take the terrorist home for thanksgiving dinner!! Just remember a tamed tiger will bite the hand that fed it. I bet the terrorist love the fact that there are people thinking that the beheading of Nick Berg is compared to abuse of prisoners.
The best way to defeat your foe is from inside without firing a shot. And that is what these attacks are aimed at. SO maybe lets wait until we have actually convicted the soldiers involved before we give away the keys to the country.
These terrorist would cut your head off just as quick, whether you abused an Iraqi or not.

The only reason we criticize our own soldiers more is because we don’t expect this from them. We expect acts made by the terrorists to be torturous, but not by our own country. If we torture them, the terrorists will only torture us more harshly...which is why I’m more frustrated with our own soldiers.

Them torturing only makes them look worse around the world. Us doing it directly effects how the world thinks of all Americans. So of course we will be more mad about us doing it.

Originally posted by M&Mdelite
From what I've read, this was in revenge for the abuse of the Iraqi prisioners, by the US soldiers. Even the killings where the Americans were burned to death was in revenge. The Iraqis knew about the abuse before the pictures surfaced in America. There will probably be more of these brutal killings now that the American soldiers have shown how evil they are. This is so sad. All i can tell you to do is to download the video of these bastards cutting Nicholas Berg's head off. Watch it, then see if you can still say that prancing muslims around naked is the same as the beheading, or even grounds to justify it. I feel as though most of you on this board are missing the point that a HUMAN being had his head sawed off. I have to assume that you people are numb to the actual events. I hope its not the case that you dont care because it was an american that had his head cut off.

By the way, since when is revenge killing justifiable to you people? You certainly dont want any revenge executions here in the states of convicted murderers. So why point out that this killing was done for "revenge"?

[Originally posted by HaVoK
All i can tell you to do is to download the video of these bastards cutting Nicholas Berg's head off. Watch it, then see if you can still say that prancing muslims around naked is the same as the beheading, or even grounds to justify it. I feel as though most of you on this board are missing the point that a HUMAN being had his head sawed off. I have to assume that you people are numb to the actual events. I hope its not the case that you dont care because it was an american that had his head cut off.

By the way, since when is revenge killing justifiable to you people? You certainly dont want any revenge executions here in the states of convicted murderers. So why point out that this killing was done for "revenge"?

Stop being so blind.

Again, the humiliation we have seen. The other video and pictures we haven’t. The video and pictures we haven’t seen are said to be “way worse”, “real torture”, “grotesque”, “cruel” and “horrific”. So you haven’t even seen the worse from our own soldiers.

Yes it’s horrible what they did. But it is just as horrible what we did. You haven’t seen the pictures and video that is described to be real torture. When you do, we’ll talk. Until then, shut up.

The revenge was because we disrespected their religion, and did many torturous events to them, that you have not even seen. So who knows what kind of horrible things we did.

It is horrible what they did, but just because they did this, does not justify what we did. To say well they tortured us, we can do the same to them, defeats the purpose of saying torture is wrong.

m&m & lib4moreamerican deaths,

do you guys actually equate the abuse of iraqi prisoners with the murder of Nick Berg?

if so, what happened to you when you were young? head trauma? sexual abuse? too much lead in the paint chips you ate while growing up in public housing? mother conceive you while on acid? too much cranial pressure during birth? fetal alcohol syndrome? mild retardation?

please, an honest response. we need to know.

cheers,
the transgendered neo-con

thanks for being a sane, patriotic voice on this cyber asylum.

Originally posted by tgnc
m&m & lib4moreamerican deaths,

do you guys actually equate the abuse of iraqi prisoners with the murder of Nick Berg?

if so, what happened to you when you were young? head trauma? sexual abuse? too much lead in the paint chips you ate while growing up in public housing? mother conceive you while on acid? too much cranial pressure during birth? fetal alcohol syndrome? mild retardation?

please, an honest response. we need to know.

cheers,
the transgendered neo-con

Again, the humiliation we have seen. The other video and pictures we haven’t. The video and pictures we haven’t seen are said to be “way worse”, “real torture”, “grotesque”, “cruel” and “horrific”. So you haven’t even seen the worse from our own soldiers.

From what it is described, from people who have seen the video and images, I do equate them. What they did is horrible, what we did is horrible as well.

Until you see all the video, and images that are suppose to be “extreme torture”, don’t tell me what to equate and not to equate. With all the hype of how horrible they are, it seems to me, it is grotesque and cruel...just like with the "be-heading"

A liberal talking about religion? I thought it was liberals who pushed seperation of church and state here.

All I can say is, again that sawing someones head off, while still awake and screaming btw. Is not an acceptable response to any form of abuse or even torture.

What if I was to yell Glory to GOD, death to Bin Laden. I know what would happen I would be called a racist or at minimum radical. He killed thousands of people all over the world, each and everytime it was a different reason. But because I am an American I have to shut up and let them walk all over me and my neighbors. I will not allow anyone to walk on my or this great nation. If the soldiers are convicted then put them in prison for life if thats what is demanded by the law.
But stop allowing the terrorist an avenue to kill people all over the world by taking the responsibility away from them.
Remember with freedom of speech comes a great responsibility.

Originally posted by Liberal 4 Life
Again, the humiliation we have seen. The other video and pictures we haven’t. The video and pictures we haven’t seen are said to be “way worse”, “real torture”, “grotesque”, “cruel” and “horrific”. So you haven’t even seen the worse from our own soldiers.

From what it is described, from people who have seen the video and images, I do equate them. What they did is horrible, what we did is horrible as well.

Until you see all the video, and images that are suppose to be “extreme torture”, don’t tell me what to equate and not to equate. With all the hype of how horrible they are, it seems to me, it is grotesque and cruel...just like with the "be-heading" Ever hear the saying "Believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see"? Until i can actually "SEE" the video of these things you are talking about, i can only wait and see. In this instance you seem to be quite willing to convict our soldiers sight unseen of alleged atrocities they committed. Why is that?

Originally posted by HaVoK
Ever hear the saying "Believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see"? Until i can actually "SEE" the video of these things you are talking about, i can only wait and see. In this instance you seem to be quite willing to convict our soldiers sight unseen of alleged atrocities they committed. Why is that?

Liberals, the answer is liberal mantra

Originally posted by Liberal 4 Life
[

Stop being so blind.

Again, the humiliation we have seen. The other video and pictures we haven’t. The video and pictures we haven’t seen are said to be “way worse”, “real torture”, “grotesque”, “cruel” and “horrific”. So you haven’t even seen the worse from our own soldiers.

Yes it’s horrible what they did. But it is just as horrible what we did. You haven’t seen the pictures and video that is described to be real torture. When you do, we’ll talk. Until then, shut up. .

huh?

How can you say that cutting an innocent guys head off is just as bad as abusing some prisoners ?

Sure, the abuse was terrible - but its not even in the same ballpark as the beheading.

True - we haven't seen all the abuse videos - but neither have the monsters that cut the guys head off.

Originally posted by DrewM


True - we haven't seen all the abuse videos - but neither have the monsters that cut the guys head off.
I bet those monsters probably don't even know where the prison is. Another set of opportunistic murderers, kill for any cause if it sounds good. I am sure that someone will kill an American in retribution for Israels attack on a Palestinian camp today.

why do people believe anyhting al qeada says? they say a murder is revenge and the idiots in this country go around posting things like "it was revenge for the panties on the head, we screwed up now" so now I guess every soldier killed is retribution for the naked pictures, and the left will dutifully remind us of it every time, going right along with what al qeada wants. its sad to see americans trumpeting the enemys propaganda, I can only imagine if major section sof the country repeated the nazi propaganda

Originally posted by Travh20
why do people believe anything al qeada says?

It's not just Al Qaeda it's all the anti-American groups.
I think that these people are either the same people who thought it was ok for people who oppossed the Vietnam War to rob banks kidnap people or set fire to cities, or maybe their descendants.

I am not a die hard conservative and I am not a liberal I am a human being who wants Americans to for once be proud of our country. It takes a person of good character to be proud in the face of adversity.

I'm not justifying what they did. It is horrible.

All I'm trying to say is that personally torturing someone, is almost worse then death. Torturing someone is a constant, everyday pain. The reports have been going on since December of Iraqi abuse...and if they were tortured since then, that is extremely horrible. It is an ever lasting trauma that they will have to deal with until the day they die. The pain they endured everyday, is horrible.

The fact that we haven’t even seen the worse video/images makes you wonder. So if you call what we did “humiliation”, you are sadly mistaken.

Again what Al Quidea did is evil, and monstrous. No one deserves that kind of death.

But we aren’t doing a much better job at being the quote “good” side of the spectrum.

Originally posted by Liberal 4 Life
I'm not justifying what they did. It is horrible.

All I'm trying to say is that personally torturing someone, is almost worse then death. Torturing someone is a constant, everyday pain. The reports have been going on since December of Iraqi abuse...and if they were tortured since then, that is extremely horrible. It is an ever lasting trauma that they will have to deal with until the day they die. The pain they endured everyday, is horrible.




OK I doubt all of them endured horrible pain everyday.
But I will make a deal with you, you let them saw your head of over a period of about 30 seconds and I will strip naked and stand near a barking dog. I will do that everyday. and no I am not making light of it, just running out of ways to compare the worst form of murder to what has only been shown to be abuse.
Even if you take into account the soldier who killed a prisoner with a rock it is not anywhere near as bad as having you head chopped off and then your head held in front of a camera eyes open.

I am guessing that if an Iraqi had killed a soldier with a rock it would have been justified. I am tired of hearing that killing an American is ok. We have proven that these terrorist actually use the web and surf around, so you liberals keep telling them that it is ok to kill Americans and we wont care, maybe we will make the President withdraw from Iraq and see how many more die.

It's clear, the abuse is not anything close to the head getting cut off and your parents knowing that such a video exists to haunt them for the rest of their lives.

You are comparing the images we see now. The barking is indeed not all that happened, he was then bitten and attacked by the dog.

Plus the images/video we haven’t seen, you should compare to the “be-heading”. The be-heading is worse, yes. But you fail to realize that the images and videos we haven't seen are described as grotesque, cruel and real torture. So when you see them, maybe can debate. But from what they have said about them, it seems to me, as well as most people who pay attention, that it is horrific.

I hate the fact an American was killed. I'm deeply frustrated by that and disturbed. But again, I expect that from Al Quidea...I don't expect these kind of actions from our own troops.

I do think the be-heading is worse, so just get that straight.

The thing is, I expect that from Al Quidea. I don’t expect these actions from our own troops...hence torture. The reason Al Quidea said they did this was because of our torture against them. Everyone here it seems does not believe that reason, and I do. I honestly, truly believe that our torture has caused them to go to more extreme lengths to get us back. It is hurting us, and it will indeed put more Americans at risk of attack.

Originally posted by Liberal 4 Life
I do think the be-heading is worse, so just get that straight.

The thing is, I expect that from Al Quidea. I don’t expect these actions from our own troops...hence torture. The reason Al Quidea said they did this was because of our torture against them. Everyone here it seems does not believe that reason, and I do. I honestly, truly believe that our torture has caused them to go to more extreme lengths to get us back. It is hurting us, and it will indeed put more Americans at risk of attack.

If you truly believe this then I guess that maybe you should tell The Israelis to back off, because we have been killed for that as well.

Ok I have read three articles about the dog incident and all described it as " The prisoner was stripped naked and threatened with a barking dog."

I am tired of arguing with someone who doesnt believe that you innocent until proven guilty.

Originaly posted by Liberal4life

Ummm, I'm 15. Can't vote yet. But, trust me...4 years ago I don't think he was running or trying to become President (if you are talking about Kerry)

Ok I understand now. I am 45 and was actually alive when all of this started.

Originally posted by Beirut_Veteran
Originaly posted by Liberal4life



Ok I understand now. I am 45 and was actually alive when all of this started.

Well you are 45 so I better just believe everything you say, now...right? Because age is such a factor? When really, we read the same news articles about what is going on now. And how my parents and grandparents, also for the most part, agree with me on many things Kerry does and says. So don't think that just because of your age you have more "say" in what is right and wrong. You fail to forget, the youth will be the future of America.

Liberal 4 Life,
No I didnt say that, answer these questions for me.

1. Who held Americans hostage for over 400 days?

2. Who took power when the Shah of Iran left power?

3. When did the IRG kill 241 American service men and where?


Not trying to show I am smarter, but that age does factor in to understanding the real world and not what the newpapers spout.
Do you think that a media that is supported by ads from companies that have interests around the world is always giving the complete truth?

I’m willing to admit, you know more about world affairs. But what is going on now, I know enough about to make an educated decision and opinion. I’m not saying I know more then you, but you are acting is if your age makes you somehow superior in the opinions on world events now. Many, many adults agree with many of the things I say. If they didn’t, we most likely wouldn’t have the quote “liberal” stereotype.

Originally posted by Liberal 4 Life
You fail to forget, the youth will be the future of America. If you and many of the other young people on this board exemplify typical youths of today then this country has no future.

Liberal you keep mentioning the videos we haven't seen - have you seen them??

No, so lets not compare things we do know about to things we don't know about. You are extending a lot of favor to abuses we haven't seen and much less favor to a hideous act that is there for all to see.

When the videos we haven't seen come out & they show a US soldier cutting off the head of an iraqi - then I will agree with you 100%

Originally posted by HaVoK
If you and many of the other young people on this board exemplify typical youths of today then this country has no future.

Of course, because the youth is so horrible these days...because we are only raised by who?

Originally posted by DrewM
Liberal you keep mentioning the videos we haven't seen - have you seen them??

No, so lets not compare things we do know about to things we don't know about. You are extending a lot of favor to abuses we haven't seen and much less favor to a hideous act that is there for all to see.

Why don't you go read what people have been saying about them. I just posted a thread. Check it out, and read it. :D

I have read it. It still doesn't compare.

No it does not compare. But again I expect those actions by Al Quidea...not the actions by our troops. Because of them, we are at more danger now then ever before.

You cant honestly believe that we were safe before 9/11 do you?

Terrorist have always targeted us. Remember the first attack on the World Trade Center? Or even before that.

The only actions that can cause us more danger is to not be unified in our response to the killing of Nick Berg. We cant let the terrorist see us waiver in the resolve that we will not accept the beheading of innocents.

Also if the evidence shows that the soldiers acted on their own or if they were ordered then we must be united on our disgust for their actions. But we must never let the terrorist think it was ok to do that.

Originally posted by Beirut_Veteran
You cant honestly believe that we were safe before 9/11 do you?

Terrorist have always targeted us. Remember the first attack on the World Trade Center? Or even before that.

The only actions that can cause us more danger is to not be unified in our response to the killing of Nick Berg. We cant let the terrorist see us waiver in the resolve that we will not accept the beheading of innocents.

Also if the evidence shows that the soldiers acted on their own or if they were ordered then we must be united on our disgust for their actions. But we must never let the terrorist think it was ok to do that. I agree with everything you have been saying BV. What i find incredible is that you have to explain it to some here. It's almost as if they dont have common sense. :confused:

Havoc,

I was frustrated until I found out that Liberal 4 is 15 then I feel that explanation is in order. Not because I feel superior or because I am 45 but because I have been there. And personal experience is always better than reading about it.

BTW liberal is young enough to be converted. Hey liberal I see alot of young liberals but most as they age move to the other side. I am not a card acrrying conservative but I am not a liberal either I am a human with the ability to sort out the B.S. the media spews and make up my own mind.

Do you remember the Spain Attacks?

Hotel bombings in Baghdad?

The Threat of summer and Olympic attacks said by President Bush?

The abuse our soldiers have done in Iraq, will be used to recruit more enemies for Americans.

The terrorists hate us even more, along with the world for what we have been done in Iraq.

We are not safer, we have made more enemies in Iraq.

Also don't tell me that I will be converted. Many liberals are still liberal and always have been. Why on earth did Gore win the popular vote?

Again:European Commission President, Romano Prodi, stated, "It happens in Iraq as elsewhere - Istanbul, Moscow, Madrid. The terrorism that the war in Iraq was supposed to stop is infinitely more powerful today than it was a year ago."

A poll on MSNBC said that most Americans feel more scared of an attack now then ever before. Explain that....

The attacks committed to our American civilian is expected from Al Quidea. The abuse by our soldiers is not expected and has ruined our name worldwide. The beheading is indeed worse then the abuse. But it was at least in some way caused by the torture our soldiers committed against them.

OK obviously I remember all of these things because they are very recent. So in your opinion it is rational to now target us because prisoners were abused.

How about the Olympics in Munich in 1972 when Israeli athletes were killed by terrorist and American Jews were targeted.

America has not been safe since the day the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.

Prisoner abuse will only impact the mind of terrorist until something bigger comes along. Remember all of the Americans killed in terror attacks over the past 45 years. We hadnt abused prisoners in Iraq back then, so what was the excuse back then. It was simple to kill an American means you have beaten the best and thats bragging rights.
Have you seen the pictures of homicide bombers that line the streets of Beirut. Big banners on street lights. Is that the act of a culture that really cares about abuse or torture? No they wouldnt have said a word if it was done by an arab military. Hussein killed over 200K of his people and not one concerned Arab group beheaded anyone in retaliation.

No, the terrorists cutting off the head of an American doesn't compare to torture by the US soldiers, but evidently President Bush thinks it's pretty grusome, or he wouldn't have gone on National TV and apologized. I really thought our soldiers were above that kind of behavior, but I 'never' thought the terrorists was above that behavior. There's a lot more in those pictures than naked Iraqis. I saw a prisoner being dragged by the neck with a chain, one was being bitten by a dog, one was beaten bloody. To me, those are not Sunday school acts.

There are plenty Americans terrorists too. What would you call the dam cowards that dragged James Byrd, attached to a truck until his head was cut off from the shoulder? HUH?

Why do you think Dumbya apologized if this torture was okay? Do you think he thought it was okay too, but had to apologize for political reasons?

The attacks committed to our American civilian is expected from Al Quidea. The abuse by our soldiers is not expected and has ruined our name worldwide. The beheading is indeed worse then the abuse. But it was at least in some way caused by the torture our soldiers committed against them.

Let's disect what you just wrote;

Al Queda attacks on Americans are justified to the world, because they are expected.

Abuse by Americans is not justified, because the world has a higher opinion of us. It is not expected, so therefore it is worse than Al Queda.

You then compare the torture to the beheading, but you place blame on the first crime. With that line of reasoning, you could then argue that the abuse of the prisoners was retalliation for the prior assaults on the American troops.

Don't think I agree with the war and our troops being there, but your statements are questionable.

America has had enemies since our beginning in 1776.
In the end we will WIN as before.

What would you call the dam cowards that dragged James Byrd, attached to a truck until his head was cut off from the shoulder?

Thats disturbing to hear that US soldiers did that. I didn't see it in the news. I take it that the press was asked to not show that?

If you have a news website on that I'd appreciate it.

Originally posted by Liberal 4 Life
The attacks committed to our American civilian is expected from Al Quidea. The abuse by our soldiers is not expected and has ruined our name worldwide. The beheading is indeed worse then the abuse. But it was at least in some way caused by the torture our soldiers committed against them. You're trying to use reason to define this act when that is impossible. What happened to Nicholas Berg was inhuman and incomprehensible for most decent people. There is no specific cause and effect going on here. These terrorists really need no "reason" to do this. Again, look what happened to Daniel Pearl. Its happened before, it will happen again. And your thought process is exactly what these cowardly terrorist are hoping to prey on.

Originally posted by M&Mdelite
There's a lot more in those pictures than naked Iraqis. I saw a prisoner being dragged by the neck with a chain, one was being bitten by a dog, one was beaten bloody. To me, those are not Sunday school acts.

There are plenty Americans terrorists too. What would you call the dam cowards that dragged James Byrd, attached to a truck until his head was cut off from the shoulder? HUH?


Why is it that no one ever reads all of my posts in a thread before jumping to conclusions? I never said it was all right, I said that before judgement is passed hear all the evidence and I said beheading a non-combatant is not acceptable and that the terrorist are cowards.

Now let me adress your description of the first picture you describe. At what point did you see the soldier drag the inmate, if they are what the say, then the pics were used to coherse, which is not acceptable either, and most were staged.
As for the second picture, I never saw a dog any closer than three feet from the inmate and he was covering himself to avoid being bitten. Now as for the last until we hear what happened how can you convict anyone, much less tell the terrorist that it is ok to behead innocents?

I know we have American terrorist and I call them cowards as well. But I am intrigued why you would use James Byrds death as an example instead of the worst American act of terrorism, OKC Fed BLDG.

I am not saying that the Mr. Byrd wasnt killed by cowards but terrorist generally have to achieve a large scale mass terror. Columbine would qualify as a terror attack and even all the way back to one of the first mass murder by gun, McDonalds in San Diego Ca.

Terrorism is something relatively new to the US up until 9-11 but in other countries it was common place.

Growing up in the UK - the IRA blew people up every other week. One time they bombed a parade with explosives with nails - lots of kids & even horses died. It's not new, or something unique to the US.

When you take everything into consideration - the amount of attacks here are really small.

These people want to attack the US - the prison abuses will probably not impact terrorism here, but will stir people up to do more things abroad.

Remember 99.99% of people in the world want peace - they want security and a safe place for their kids. These terrorists are but a very small minority.

Originally posted by WindWip
Thats disturbing to hear that US soldiers did that. I didn't see it in the news. I take it that the press was asked to not show that?

If you have a news website on that I'd appreciate it.

That was in Texas he was killed but two pieces of crap because he was a black man. It was horrible. Not killed by soldiers.

And your thought process is exactly what these cowardly terrorist are hoping to prey on.
I disagree. The terrorists' goal is to drive Americans out of Iraq. They do not hope that Americans will justify their actions, they are hoping that with enough negative press, Bush will pull out.

Misuse of 'cowardly'. They may be ruthless, malevolent and incompassionate, but they did not show lacking of courage. The Iraqi people as a whole have shown much more courage than us during this confrontation.

Originally posted by WindWip
I disagree. The terrorists' goal is to drive Americans out of Iraq. They do not hope that Americans will justify their actions, they are hoping that with enough negative press, Bush will pull out.

Misuse of 'cowardly'. They may be ruthless, malevolent and incompassionate, but they did not show lacking of courage. The Iraqi people as a whole have shown much more courage than us during this confrontation.
I would agree only partially, for Bush to pull out it would take a major shift in popular opinion and that comes when we allow the attacks on the innocents to be rationalized.

As for the Iraqi people, we are speaking of Al Qaeda, they are cowards as well. I am sure there are plenty of courageous Iraqi's or were. Hussein killed everyone that stood up on the side of right. Including his daughters husband. Had an squad kill him in front of the masn children in his home.

A people who have courage will not tolerate a dictator for long. So like I said I am sure Hussein took the few with courage and used them to whip the others in line.
Does anyone here really believe that the majority of Iraqis would say leave and put Hussein back?

hahaha your right. I doubt they would like to have Saddam back, but I also know that they are not looking for a democracy right now.

One point I disagree with almost everyone is with courage. Though terrorists and the Al Queda who hijacked the planes had horrible intentions and have killed only for publicity, I will not disregard their courage. I do not admire them and wish them slow painful deaths, but I respect them in that one field.

lib4life

read my post again: i didn't tell you what to "equate or not to equate"? i simply ASKED if you equated the abuse with the murder.

it's you telling people to "shut up". mind your manners young lady.

cheers,
the transgendered neo-con