I have noticed by browsing this forum that those who are already sentencing the soldiers and Bush are the same ones who say that our justice system is broken because we have innocent people in jail.

Now I know that some are wrongfully convicted and that is sad but it is odd that some of you would take the word of a convicted killer and believe that this country wronged him. Then turn around and proclaim guilt on those who have not yet been to trial.

Maybe I am missing something, so please answer these questions for me.

1. Why is it ok to proclaim the guilt of a soldier before he/she is convicted by a jury of their peers?

2. Why is it that you are in a hurry to punish America, but not one of you have mentioned the attrocities committed by the prior Ba'athist Regime?

Pull the wool over everyone's eyes by convicting the lowest of the pawns in the great psy-ops game. It's a shell game - watch the soldiers get marched off to Fort Leavenworth Federal Pen while the CIA and whoever else has a hand in there skulks further into the shadows ....

1. Unless the photo's are photoshop edited - then the soldiers involved are certainly not innocent, but you are right that absolute guilt will come after a trial. It's probably certain that these soldiers will assume all the blame and some others equally responsible will walk away scott free. The general in todays hearings said there was no training, nor supervision. These soldiers are 20 year old kids. Who would you blame if an adult gave a box of matches to a 2 year old and they burned down the house?

2. I don't see how the Bathist Regime is relevant - nobody disputes (well I don't anyway) that they were far worse - but the US is not a bathist regime and the actions of the US cannot be justfied against the values of a maniac - we can only judge actions vs our values. By our values - those actions were plain wrong

I think that's very well said, DrewM.

1) I haven't seen a whole lot of finger pointing at the soldiers, but rather at the command structure. In fact, Rumsfeld is probably getting the most heat, as he should. It is pretty bad, though, that these soldiers' names will be stained with this for a long time regardless of what happens.

2) We shouldn't have to preface any criticism with some sort of global disclaimer about "I know the insurgents have done much worse, but . . ." I think most of us have made it pretty clear elsewhere that we didn't like the treatment of Americans by Saddam and the insurgents. Although there are at least two people on this board that were rather dismissive of the murders of the American contractors because they were "mercenaries."

The point I am making is this, if America does it then it is bad if another country does it, thats life. This is the sentiment throughout the world. I only want everyone here to NOT judge the soldiers until the evidence is all out, then like I have said many times if convicted by a jury of their peers I will join in the condemnation, but never agree that a death of anyone is justifiable retribution for this scandal or any for that matter.

I am tired of hearing that it is our politics that kills Americans, innocents are targeted by cowards. If you have a reason to attack then put your fighters in uniforms and attack our military.
It was the U.N. that allowed the death of 241 Americans in Beirut. How many of you remembered last year was the 20th anniversary of that attack?

'83 was a year to remember from a lot of directions. I was halfway through a 7 year assignment in West Germany. While it was certainly no Beruit, it wasn't a complete picnic, either.

No it wasnt, the Meinhoffer gang and the red brigade made most of europe an exciting place to be. We had left Athens not long before a bar was blown up in Gliffada. And club on base was blown up as well right?

Side note being an Army Brat I was born in Munich.

That wasn't real near where I was. A soldier from a unit I worked with was kidnapped & killed for his ID card, which allowed access to Rhein Mein AFB. The ID card was found in the wreckage of a car bomb detonated at RM.

That was a sad time in the world.

Hello all.....
I am appalled at the verbage that the Iraqi incidents have caused concerning these 'War Crimes' (please note: War Crimes is anything done in Violation of standards of Conduct established ie: Geneva Convention)
When Wounded Knee and Sand Creek occurred, it was OK because it was the soldiers combating 'Indians'. but the Little Big Horn was disgusting because it was 'Indians' massacuring Whites...
Our own Civil War (Blue vs Gray) had atrocities that offended the pure of heart....look at the first battle..people camre out in carriages with picnic lunches to watch the battle....lol was that awful...
And in the most recent past was Vietnam.. a guerrila war never fought in this manner before...and atrocities on both sides...Hamburger Hill comes to mind as most media viewed..
War is never good, and when we play by civilized rules while the other side plays by their own made-up rules, something happens to those in the trenches...right or wrong..it is WAR!! not an NFL Game on TV, not a Soccer match, not a marble game where when you get mad you take your marbles and go home (are you listening Ross Perot?)
People, what do we expect of our Citizens in Combat? To fight a one-sided game, long and drawn out, or to use their heads to save lives? Information extracted from a POW does save lives!!!! Come on, give it a break!!

Bravo GrayOwl,

I totally agree with what you have posted.

Every war has its atrocities and every war has its victor. We ran a war by public opinion in Vietnam and it costs us 54k + American lives. We didnt have the instant coverage during WW II so the public didnt see the carnage of our bombers carpet bombing German cities. That was the only way to bring Hitlers army to its knees. When we tried the same on Hanoi we were called murderers and public opinion put a stop to the escalation of the war which I believe would have brought an end to the war in Vietnam by 1970 at the latest.

Anyway I got off the subject, sorry. Great post GrayOwl.

go to this link Let me introduce myself (http://www.allforums.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5478)

210% Well Said!