Here's what the entire world is seeing. What a horror...
Link from the site to Al Basrah

http://tvnewslies.org

That's the first legit news I've ever seen on that website.

Here ya go.

http://www.albasrah.net/images/iraqi-pow/iraqi-pow

Lionel.... could you make a clear reference to any non legitimate news on the site? Please be specific. Generalities don't make much sense......

Those pictures are disgusting. :(

The behavior of our troops is disgusting. The pictures are evidence of our disdain for people we feel are less human than we are. Just saw an AP report that there were more than 1,000 civilian casualties in Fallujah. No one really cares. Not really.

Originally posted by skipper7
Lionel.... could you make a clear reference to any non legitimate news on the site? Please be specific. Generalities don't make much sense......

Gee I don't know - all of it? I'm not going to go find all of the other posts to that website because I've got better things to do with my time. You probably wouldn't agree with my assessment anyway.

Great cop out. It's the typical and expected response of those who have absolutely no substantive criticism. I will conclude that the entirety of TvNewsLies.org is valid, since you cannot dispute a single item. Thanks.

Funny we kill civilians (10,000) in Iraq, bomb their homes, schools and hospitals. Then torture them…

Sounds a lot like Saddam…if you ask me

Jeez - some of those photos are worse than I thought possible - US soldiers raping Iraqi women with guns to their head.

This is headline news all across the middle east - this could have huge ramifications.

And some people still wonder why the hate us......

god your a gullible lot. US soldiers dont werar blue hats and tennis shoes. some of those photos are straight out of a porno movie. total . Any US soldier who actually commits war crimes will pay dearly. IT is not acceptable to honorable soldiers, and they will be punished. Now, to spread around this al queada propaganda with such reckless abandon is wrong. I think everyone has forgotten who the enemy is in this war. Its correct to be about our soldiers acting like the saddam regime, but to condem the entire operation based on these pictures is very short sighted. people like dop wh think our military is the most evil thing in the world will exploit this to no end. dont let the dops and al jazzera of the world make up your mind for you.

I don't think anybody believes that all 150,000 soldiers in Iraq are doing these things, or the wider Military is like that. That isn't the point though.

Something is whacked when a bunch of soldiers can do that stuff and think its ok. It does speak of a wider problem and it couldn't have come at a worse time. This is incredibly damaging - it will impact a whole generations view of the US.

More than just opinions - it is absolutely certain that both soldiers and civilians will lose their lives because of those photo's. Those soldiers should never be allowed back into the US - forced to live in Iraq or wherever will have them for ever.

There are photo's of British soldiers pissing on Iraqi POW's.

This issue is not just going to die down.

So far no one in the administration has come forward with an unequivicable "this is an isolated incident" statement so we really don't know the depth of this yet. I suspect it will go much deeper and like Drew said 'this issue is not just going to die down".

The parents of the accused are blaming everyone except their kids. They are calling out the civilians, the military itself, lack of training and whatever. Can't say I blame them -- no one wants to see their kid go to war and end up in federal prison in compete disgrace.

The best case I can make for the perps is that they have received orders/training from our old mercenary friends from the 80's days of the Guatemala killing-fields, rehired and in charge, and let it go to their heads thinking they were immune to any oversight -- where they should have simply known better. Big mistake.

The behaviour of the keymasters of Abu Gharib will cost the lives of many troops. Count on it.

5 Vietnam deferrments - 5 Vietnam ribbons. It's your choice.

Dop

Even worse is the image of the US troops smiling and laughing. There are times when such methods are used to extract information, I suppose. But this was for sheer pleasure. The photos were probably supposed to be souvenirs. And I agree totally that this was NOT an isolated incident.

Originally posted by Travh20
god your a gullible lot. US soldiers dont werar blue hats and tennis shoes. some of those photos are straight out of a porno movie. total . Any US soldier who actually commits war crimes will pay dearly. IT is not acceptable to honorable soldiers, and they will be punished. Now, to spread around this al queada propaganda with such reckless abandon is wrong. I think everyone has forgotten who the enemy is in this war. Its correct to be about our soldiers acting like the saddam regime, but to condem the entire operation based on these pictures is very short sighted. people like dop wh think our military is the most evil thing in the world will exploit this to no end. dont let the dops and al jazzera of the world make up your mind for you.

Straight from a porno movie? Try going on MSNBC, CNN, Fox News…and almost all of the pictures are there. Al Queda propaganda? It’s worldwide news, and if you don’t believe the facts that are in front of your face, you’re hopeless. Such a typical Republican. It is not propaganda, it is fact. Also do you honestly think, that these are the only soldiers who are doing these acts? Seriously, I’m sure this is going on in other parts of Iraq as well. I’m not saying our whole military is doing this, but I’m sure a lot more are, then just this group of people. Honestly, we killed 10,000+ of the civilians, ruin their homeland, don’t give them control of their own government, and then torture their civilians. That does ring, Saddam if you ask me.

have you ever seved in the military? have you any idea what goes on in war zones? what makes you george patton? the problem is you wnat to believe these things are routine day to day happenings. you laready dont like and dont trust the military, this is just what you need to push you over the edge, these same things were said about the men in vietnam right before people starte dspitting on them. Thanks john kerry!

Originally posted by Travh20
have you ever seved in the military? have you any idea what goes on in war zones? what makes you george patton? the problem is you wnat to believe these things are routine day to day happenings. you laready dont like and dont trust the military, this is just what you need to push you over the edge, these same things were said about the men in vietnam right before people starte dspitting on them. Thanks john kerry!

Trav, what does serving in the military have to do with it? You needn't have served to be able to say these acts are despicable. Nobody is saying these acts are routine, but even once is too often and it's obvious that this was not a one time event.

The only person spitting here is you. Go ahead...blame Kerry because we know he and Ted Kennedy are behind this whole scandal as a way to discredit Bush...:rolleyes:

Uh... how is that all the warmongers combined never served a day in the military - INCLUDING AWOL GWB - and yet they send our best and bravest to die for nothing? Same happened in Vietnam. Today it's oil and domination of the region....then it was rubber, tungsten, tin and communism. Lies led to both wars. People died. Nothing was accomplished. The leaders lived.

Let's be realistic. This kind of shit happens in war. Fact is, this is pretty tame stuff. There are tons of photos out there of Muslim bandits slowly cutting the heads off of live captives. Try doing a little research on your own instead of relying on the news media to spoon feed you an education of how the world really works. Where was the public outcry (Meaning Arab Community) when Iraqi citizens burned and dismembered the 4 U.S. contractors? No "furor" over that incident. We're viewed as animals by the folks in this region.
Now, put yourself in a US soldier's boots. He's in a country, risking his life. He may have lost a buddy. For what? To aid a group of people that will hate him no matter what he/she does for them. Why? Because he's viewed as a Christian only because he's American. These are the same people that turn their cowardly heads when a neighbor or even family member is killed or raped or kidnapped. Not to justify the actions of the soldiers, but pull your heads out of your asses and try and add a little color to your B&W judgement of all things American.
Question is: How relative is it to the truth that this is a part of the world that will never be understood. That the majority of these people have been so conditioned that were they animals they would be put to sleep because they are a danger to the civilized world.
Those soldiers fucked up bad. Get over it. Don't let their actions take away from the hundreds who have already given their lives for this godforsaken lot of dirt known as the middle east.

Originally posted by jokermik
Let's be realistic. This kind of shit happens in war. Fact is, this is pretty tame stuff. There are tons of photos out there of Muslim bandits slowly cutting the heads off of live captives. Try doing a little research on your own instead of relying on the news media to spoon feed you an education of how the world really works. Where was the public outcry (Meaning Arab Community) when Iraqi citizens burned and dismembered the 4 U.S. contractors? No "furor" over that incident. We're viewed as animals by the folks in this region.
Now, put yourself in a US soldier's boots. He's in a country, risking his life. He may have lost a buddy. For what? To aid a group of people that will hate him no matter what he/she does for them. Why? Because he's viewed as a Christian only because he's American. These are the same people that turn their cowardly heads when a neighbor or even family member is killed or raped or kidnapped. Not to justify the actions of the soldiers, but pull your heads out of your asses and try and add a little color to your B&W judgement of all things American.
Question is: How relative is it to the truth that this is a part of the world that will never be understood. That the majority of these people have been so conditioned that were they animals they would be put to sleep because they are a danger to the civilized world.
Those soldiers fucked up bad. Get over it. Don't let their actions take away from the hundreds who have already given their lives for this godforsaken lot of dirt known as the middle east.

jokermik - welcome to AllForums

It's true that Muslim bandits have done some terrible stuff - likewise Hussain did terrible stuff too. That's no excuse - there is no excuse.

Originally posted by jokermik
Let's be realistic. This kind of shit happens in war. Fact is, this is pretty tame stuff. There are tons of photos out there of Muslim bandits slowly cutting the heads off of live captives. Try doing a little research on your own instead of relying on the news media to spoon feed you an education of how the world really works. Where was the public outcry (Meaning Arab Community) when Iraqi citizens burned and dismembered the 4 U.S. contractors? No "furor" over that incident. We're viewed as animals by the folks in this region.
Now, put yourself in a US soldier's boots. He's in a country, risking his life. He may have lost a buddy. For what? To aid a group of people that will hate him no matter what he/she does for them. Why? Because he's viewed as a Christian only because he's American. These are the same people that turn their cowardly heads when a neighbor or even family member is killed or raped or kidnapped. Not to justify the actions of the soldiers, but pull your heads out of your asses and try and add a little color to your B&W judgement of all things American.
Question is: How relative is it to the truth that this is a part of the world that will never be understood. That the majority of these people have been so conditioned that were they animals they would be put to sleep because they are a danger to the civilized world.
Those soldiers fucked up bad. Get over it. Don't let their actions take away from the hundreds who have already given their lives for this godforsaken lot of dirt known as the middle east.


So we can act like this because Saddam and others do? Good example we are setting...............

I never said it was justified. It isn't, and never should be. But temper your judgments with some understanding. But it is curious that so many are just lying in wait to jump on this kind of minor stuff while ignoring the heinous acts committed by the other side.

What a few soldiers have done in Iraq to prisoners is wrong. To try and spin it and say this is the norm is far worse.

Originally posted by The Republican
What a few soldiers have done in Iraq to prisoners is wrong. To try and spin it and say this is the norm is far worse.

I’m sure it’s occurring elsewhere, in Iraq. I’m not saying all soldiers are doing this, but a lot are that we are not seeing. The Iraqis have disgust for Americans soldiers in Iraq, now because of these few soldiers actions. A poll was taken and the majority of Iraqis want us out. Now does that tell you something?

Originally posted by Liberal 4 Life
I’m sure it’s occurring elsewhere, in Iraq. I’m not saying all soldiers are doing this, but a lot are that we are not seeing. The Iraqis have disgust for Americans soldiers in Iraq, now because of these few soldiers actions. A poll was taken and the majority of Iraqis want us out. Now does that tell you something?

I hope it is not going on elsewhere in Iraq but without proof it is only speculation. And as for your poll the majority of Iraqis want the occupation to end but want the US there to maintain security. Stop spinning the poll to aid your argument, at least state it for what it is.

Originally posted by Liberal 4 Life
I’m sure it’s occurring elsewhere, in Iraq. I’m not saying all soldiers are doing this, but a lot are that we are not seeing. The Iraqis have disgust for Americans soldiers in Iraq, now because of these few soldiers actions. A poll was taken and the majority of Iraqis want us out. Now does that tell you something?

Of course they want us out. Just like they wanted Saddam out, and just like they'll want the next guy out. And it has nothing to do with what happened recently.

My God, Liberal 4 Life, you should move to Iraq. Not because you don't like it here, but because you don't have any original opinions. You only think what the media of your choice want you to think. Sad.

Originally posted by The Republican
What a few soldiers have done in Iraq to prisoners is wrong. To try and spin it and say this is the norm is far worse.

Republican:

I never said it was the norm. I said this kind of shit happens and it's wrong.

What? Is everyone here on fucking auto pilot? Read, man. Read!

Originally posted by jokermik
Republican:

I never said it was the norm. I said this kind of shit happens and it's wrong.

What? Is everyone here on fucking auto pilot? Read, man. Read!

That was not directed at you. Don't worry.

Originally posted by The Republican
That was not directed at you. Don't worry.

I apologize.

Originally posted by jokermik
I apologize.

No prob.;)

Originally posted by jokermik
Of course they want us out. Just like they wanted Saddam out, and just like they'll want the next guy out. And it has nothing to do with what happened recently.

My God, Liberal 4 Life, you should move to Iraq. Not because you don't like it here, but because you don't have any original opinions. You only think what the media of your choice want you to think. Sad.


I don't think they would want the UN out.....but that's just my guess.

Meida of my choice? right.....

who would want the UN out? if you got a weakling running the show you can do what you want, any spoiled 4 year old knows that.

He's right. The UN doesn't offer a threat to the mayhem that would ensue in that country once the Coalition troops left.
However, they would eventually turn on the UN too. Know why? Because they are foreigners. And in this part of the world one would rather be killed by one of their own then slighted by an outsider.

Originally posted by jokermik
He's right. The UN doesn't offer a threat to the mayhem that would ensue in that country once the Coalition troops left.
However, they would eventually turn on the UN too. Know why? Because they are foreigners. And in this part of the world one would rather be killed by one of their own then slighted by an outsider.

hahaha, turn on the UN? I doubt the UN would torture the Iraqi's.....bomb their hospitals, and give them shortages of food and water.

who do you think the UN is? is there a UN country out there somewhere in La La land? a magical continent? I really think the liberals have no clue what the UN even is.

Originally posted by Travh20
who do you think the UN is? is there a UN country out there somewhere in La La land? a magical continent? I really think the liberals have no clue what the UN even is.

..........................................bla bla bla. The UN can send people to help in Iraq. It would be the world committing to Iraq...in a formal way. So the countries around the world can all help on saving Iraq. But then shouldn’t we also save the other countries that are like Iraq, as well? But no wait, Iraq is special...

so where are all these soldiers going to come from? Ghana? The Sudan? France? where does this highly successful UN army come from? who leads it? you dont even know. I have served under the UN, and it was a cluster f*ck of political correctness and timid leaders that got myone of my friends killed and onther almost lost his hand to a land mine

Originally posted by Travh20
so where are all these soldiers going to come from? Ghana? The Sudan? France? where does this highly successful UN army come from? who leads it? you dont even know. I have served under the UN, and it was a cluster f*ck of political correctness and timid leaders that got myone of my friends killed and onther almost lost his hand to a land mine

I remember France and Germany giving us Air Support when we went into Afghanistan...and many other countries that have pulled out and stopped giving us support right when we went into Iraq. Proving the UN could indeed help Iraq, more then we could. Since many more countries would support Iraq, and help Iraq if the UN was in control of it.

"Order, order! Do you kids want to be like the real U.N., or do you just want to squabble and waste time?" -- Principal Skinner

Have I mentioned how true the Simpsons can be at times? :D

so the french and germans are ready to spring into action and send thousands of troops to iraq just as soon as bush is gone? nothing political about that :rolleyes: who was it that doesnt care for the iraqis again? the people who took out the entrenched dictator or the ones who sit on the sidelines like spoiled kids and only help when things go their way?

Originally posted by Travh20
so the french and germans are ready to spring into action and send thousands of troops to iraq just as soon as bush is gone? nothing political about that :rolleyes: who was it that doesnt care for the iraqis again? the people who took out the entrenched dictator or the ones who sit on the sidelines like spoiled kids and only help when things go their way?

They are ready to spring into action, yes when Bush is willing to admit he was wrong, and ask for the help of the world. Our military officials say our army is overstretched, and the talk of a draft is occurring. We are in a huge deficit, and we are losing men like crazy. Deadliest month, just last month. It’s going nutz. They will help, once the US comes back to the UN and asks for forgiveness. There was no reason to invade Iraq, but now that it is done, the Germans and French (and others) I’m sure are willing to help stable Iraq. Also the Iraqis want us out of Iraq, and I’m sure the UN, in Iraq.

Liberal 4 Life:

What you fail to mention, or just don't realise, is that the US (besides killing everyone), has been spending billions to repair their infrastructure. And no, not just the infrastructure that we damaged, but that which was in disrepair already. It became that way because the majority of population was not directly related to someone who was favored by Saddam.

As for the UN. If they're the pure force that they are why do they need an apology before they are "spring into action?" It's better they keep out of it. History has shown how effective a UN led peace-keeping force is.

The Germans and the French? You have to be kidding. Regardless of what you believe you can't just go in there and start feeding and fixing a nation after war. You will need a "police" presence, which means a risk and these two countries aren't willing to risk anything for this endeavor.

Iraq has quite a few groups just waiting to rule the roost and most of them are as fanatical or more so than the Saddam was. They would eat any UN force up in a month and things would go right back to the way they were or worse. And in case you've forgotten how it was under Saddam (and Iraq was one of the most "modern" Arab countries):

Public floggings, amputations and executions for infraction such as (all proven):

Stealing food (not for sale, but out of hunger)
Speaking ill of the government (meaning Saddam, to include remarks made on a website)
Being a single woman in the company of a single man
Complaining when a government official (saddam's sons) raped your wife
Losing a national soccer game (Iraq had a friggin' torture chamber in the basement of the national olympic committee headquarters.
Found in the possession of booze, drugs or pornography (unless of course you were part of Saddam's immediate circle)

I could care less if it turns out there were no WMD's. I know everyone believes this has been proven already, but I think I'll wait a few years to make up my mind.

Truth is, this was a regime that needed to end for humanitarian reasons alone. I couldn't give two shits if the government "made up a reason". And there are many other countries that the same could be said about.

As much as I disagree with you, Liberal. I love the fact that you and I can go round and round on this without either one of us having to worry about a group of thugs kicking in our door while we slept and taking us away, never to be seen again.

And if it ever came to be that we couldn't, I'd go terrorist myself. But I know it never will.

It's a shitty country sometimes, America is, but it's still the best country on the planet.

Originally posted by Liberal 4 Life
They are ready to spring into action, yes when Bush is willing to admit he was wrong, and ask for the help of the world.

So in other words, these two great countries are punishing the Iraqis out of spite towards the U.S. Wow, what role models. :rolleyes:

exactly hutz. talk about arrogance. they will hold off thier superb militarys until they see some groveling. screw them, they dont care about the iraqis, they care about what all liberals care about, bringing down the president of the USA. if has to be done on the backs of the very people they claim to care about so be it.

It's not about what makes up the military of the UN - we all know the UN is a paper tiger backed up the US - the issue is credibility and getting out of this complete and utter mess that the administration has created. Right or wrong - the people in the arab world have faith in the UN making decisions - and absolutely zero faith in the US. No doubt even less faith now they think US soldiers are worse than Hussain on the torture front.

One can argue all day about the UN - but this is cold hard truth. Perception is reality & you can bury your head in the sand - or you can just do what needs to be done - give Paul Bremmers job to a UN guy and have the UN take over.

That's what will bring in foreign troops, money and sharing of the burden - sure they might need to get a slice of the pie - but afterall this isn't about making money - it's about doing the right thing, that's what Bush says anyway. Why don't I believe him?

More US troops are coming home in body bags than need to so Halliburton et al & US oil companies can be assured to get the choice contracts. Fuck those companies - people are dying and the situation is turning to shit day by day.

so it comes around full circle. will putting blue helmets on the same US troops whoa e there change anything? if the iraiqis dont care for or trust the americans what good will ahving american trooops thre under UN command do? are there enough countires that care enough to take over all the duties while american troops return home in shame and failure?

drew, you need to relax, go over to the inantry forums on military. com and see waht the grunts on the ground are saying about it. its not as bad as you think. sensational media reports make it into vietnam all over again, tahts the goal.

Originally posted by Travh20
so it comes around full circle. will putting blue helmets on the same US troops whoa e there change anything? if the iraiqis dont care for or trust the americans what good will ahving american trooops thre under UN command do? are there enough countires that care enough to take over all the duties while american troops return home in shame and failure?

You are missing the point by a large margin. The color of hats makes no difference - it's who is in charge politically that counts. It's a simple thing to understand.

I'll check out the infantry forums you mention - sounds interesting

so changing the unseen beaurocat in charge while leaving the same troops on the streets is going to make all the difference in the world? I dont think so. its important to the beaurocrats, but not to the average iraqi who will see the same thing he ahs been seeing the whole time, only maybe with a new hat.

Originally posted by Travh20
so changing the unseen beaurocat in charge while leaving the same troops on the streets is going to make all the difference in the world? I dont think so. its important to the beaurocrats, but not to the average iraqi who will see the same thing he ahs been seeing the whole time, only maybe with a new hat.

Yes - it will make a immense difference. As already mentioned in the eyes of the Arab world

US = evil, untrustworthy, hidden agenda's

UN = clear agenda, trustworthy

What can't you understand about that??


I looked on the forum you mentioned - doesn't look like any active duty military people are posting there. Looks to be a lot of bad mouthing Rumsfield on there though.

bad mouthing superiors is the unofficial past time of the grunt. there are plenty of actve duty on there. why do I even bother with you. it seems all you want to do is contradict me at every turn. and trustworthy and the UN is funny shit. go look up the oil for food scandal and you will se some real trust worthiness. they were willing to sial the iraiqs up the river so as to make themselves rich off saddam. trustworthy, whatever.

The UN is as about as trustworthy as a hungry wolf in a sheep pen. Besides condemning Israel for fighting back against terrorists what effective thing have they been good at since the first US led Gulf war?

You guys just keep on missing the point over and over again.

We are talking about the perception of the Arab world - not reality. Yes the UN is not trustworthy - but that was not what i was saying.

The point you keep missing is these people hate the US, think we are evil and they TRUST the UN - it doesn't matter what the real reality is - it's perception on the ground that counts in the real world.

I dont think it matters who it is, the small portion of the population fighting us will fight whoever the UN throws in there too. The UN isnt going to solve the problem, its a pipe dream.

Well - I disagree. It will change the "enemy" significantly in the Arab eyes. Why is a world full of educated people saying exactly the same thing? Tony Blair is not an idiot - he strongly is saying this very point.

Tell me one good reason why the UN shouldn't take over? - I cannot think of a single one. I don't think Bush can find one either because he is suddenly begging the UN to take over.

Bush Priorities

1. Re-election
2. Big Business
3. Fighting Terrorism
4. Soldiers lives

What the priorities should be

1. Fighting Terrorism
2. Soldiers lives
3. Re-election
4. Big Business

The only reason to keep out the UN at this point is the loss to American big business. That's fine to a point - I prefer Americans get contracts rather than the French - but this is not the most important point - at this stage, too many US soldiers are dying. Screw big business.

Originally posted by DrewM
You guys just keep on missing the point over and over again.

We are talking about the perception of the Arab world - not reality. Yes the UN is not trustworthy - but that was not what i was saying.

The point you keep missing is these people hate the US, think we are evil and they TRUST the UN - it doesn't matter what the real reality is - it's perception on the ground that counts in the real world.

So we need to change their perception not continue to feed into it.

Originally posted by The Republican
So we need to change their perception not continue to feed into it.

We can’t change their perception when we have our troop raping, and torturing their civilians. Even if it was only a “few” troops, it will still have an every-lasting impact on the Arab World about Americans. So we are only making it worse, now more then ever.

Originally posted by Liberal 4 Life
We can’t change their perception when we have our troop raping, and torturing their civilians. Even if it was only a “few” troops, it will still have an every-lasting impact on the Arab World about Americans. So we are only making it worse, now more then ever.

Yes this is certainly a blow to our image and not the right one. Never the less we need to change the perception of the Arab world and show them who their true friends are and who robs from them.

Originally posted by The Republican
Yes this is certainly a blow to our image and not the right one. Never the less we need to change the perception of the Arab world and show them who their true friends are and who robs from them.

Too late to change their thoughts on us now. We have already blown our chance. The majority of them want us out, and the Arab world hates us, now even more, because of just those few troops. Now, it's impossible to do good. We need the UN in Iraq.

Originally posted by The Republican
So we need to change their perception not continue to feed into it.

I don't disagree - but please explain how that can be achieved in the next 2 - 3 months.

What you are saying is we should do nothing. Reality check - Iraq is a total mess - the US is hated around the world with much greater strength than at the time of 9-11. How are we safer?

The Iraq situation needs to internationalized to bring stability. "We need to change their perception..." - yeah sounds wonderful. One way to start doing that is to hand over control of Iraq to the UN.

Originally posted by DrewM
I don't disagree - but please explain how that can be achieved in the next 2 - 3 months.

Too late now. We have our troops raping, and torturing their civilians. It’s ruined for good, and the Arab World is going to fight back with vengeance. The UN has to go in Iraq, now…before these reports get out, because the last I heard the Iraqi’s don’t know, about this yet, or only a few do. it’s going to get worse, and worse. Our image is now ruined forever.

so in your guys' mind our troops are sitting in foxholes 24/ getting killed fighting off wave after wave of insurgents, living under seige, only getting out long enough to rape and torture. all good news from Iraq has ceased to exist. drew has said the words "total mess" about 5 timres now, where did he get this idea? is it truly a "total mess" with no hope and ugly defeat unavoidable unless france and germany can sto counting thier oil for food money long enough to wait for us to grovel at their feet to bail us out? no, theres no liberal bias here :rolleyes:

I don't think our image is ruined forever - but it is certainly ruined for at least 20 - 30 years.

This is a very dangerous situation - the Arab street has always been anti-US to some extent, but they have always respected the US to a degree and looked to the US as a country with the power to help them.

Now, we have a situation where they believe we are inhuman.

The situation cannot be made trvial - it is very serious. Hindsight is 20/20 - but the reality is Iraq has seriously impacted the security of the American people. I think Bush made the right decision faced with specific information. The mess has followed that decision. Obviously with hindsight - Iraq was the wrong decision - but that is water under the bridge. All that matters is now - and what needs to happen now is the UN in control of Iraq.

Originally posted by Liberal 4 Life
Too late now. We have our troops raping, and torturing their civilians. It’s ruined for good, and the Arab World is going to fight back with vengeance. The UN has to go in Iraq, now…before these reports get out, because the last I heard the Iraqi’s don’t know, about this yet, or only a few do. it’s going to get worse, and worse. Our image is now ruined forever.

You are such a fatalist. As soon as the Iraqis learn what the UN, France, Russia, and others were doing to them through the Oil for Food program the UN will loose all credibility with them. The UN is not the answer. Swift punishment for those that committed the acts against the Iraqi prisoners like Bush has called for is a start. As we keep bulding and reparing their infrastructure is another. When soveirgnty is restored on July 1 and respected is yet another step and further more if Iraqis can elect their own government and take over their own security so we can leave is another.

whats stopping the UN from sending in its troops? we are not telling them to go away. We have asked for UN help already they decided ti was to dangerous. how in the hell is a group that moves its base out of iraq to cypress after it gets attacked one time goin gto change anything? come to think of it, why did the iraqiis atack the beloved UN at all?

Originally posted by Travh20
so in your guys' mind our troops are sitting in foxholes 24/ getting killed fighting off wave after wave of insurgents, living under seige, only getting out long enough to rape and torture. all good news from Iraq has ceased to exist. drew has said the words "total mess" about 5 timres now, where did he get this idea? is it truly a "total mess" with no hope and ugly defeat unavoidable unless france and germany can sto counting thier oil for food money long enough to wait for us to grovel at their feet to bail us out? no, theres no liberal bias here :rolleyes:

Where did you get the idea it wasn't a total mess?

Your view of UN control is hard-headed and stubborn. That type of view would help nobody. The UN is many many countries - including Arab countries. UN control will diffuse the situation in Iraq with no compromise on the stated goals of the Iraq campaign.

The issue is not troops - it is who is in charge.

maybe we should execute the US soldiers who tortured the iraqis. it jepordizes the mission and endangers the troop s even more, execution is acceptable.

Originally posted by The Republican
You are such a fatalist. As soon as the Iraqis learn what the UN, France, Russia, and others were doing to them through the Oil for Food program the UN will loose all credibility with them. The UN is not the answer. Swift punishment for those that committed the acts against the Iraqi prisoners like Bush has called for is a start. As we keep bulding and reparing their infrastructure is another. When soveirgnty is restored on July 1 and respected is yet another step and further more if Iraqis can elect their own government and take over their own security so we can leave is another.

I think torturing their civilians would make me more frustrated then that "Oil For Food" deal.

Besides, the Iraqis want us out. Proving the only thing left is to bring the UN into Iraq.

maybe we should execute the US soldiers who tortured the iraqis. it jepordizes the mission and endangers the troop s even more, execution is acceptable.

Maybe, but that's hardly the issue

Originally posted by DrewM
Where did you get the idea it wasn't a total mess?

Your view of UN control is hard-headed and stubborn. That type of view would help nobody. The UN is many many countries - including Arab countries. UN control will diffuse the situation in Iraq with no compromise on the stated goals of the Iraq campaign.

The issue is not troops - it is who is in charge.

drew, i ahve worked for the UN before, i know how they operate. when I was in somalia the Un rules of engagement told me that in order to fire my 40mm grenade launcher at a gunman I had to ask my squad leader who had to call up to comapny and back down. o fcourse by that time the guy was gone. my view of the UN is based on real world experience. the Un is a joke. layer upon layer of beauracracy, even worse then our own governement. the iraqis already attacked the UN in iraq and they already pulled out to cypress. their presence didnt seem to difuse anything.

Originally posted by Liberal 4 Life
I think torturing their civilians would make me more frustrated then that "Oil For Food" deal.

Besides, the Iraqis want us out. Proving the only thing left is to bring the UN into Iraq.

what is this fascination with the UN? they are not going to talk the insurgents out of wanting to bring saddam back, sorry.

I'm not saying the UN is great - I'm saying it's the best option today. We need to hand over control and bring in other countries, get Iraq back on it's feet without having a huge target around our necks and then get out.

fine, bring in the UN, just dont expect the fighting to just suddenly stop. and when the UN force from timbucktoo start getting capped and blown up, dont be suprised when the UN force starts packing up and going home. nations that have had the idea that this operation is wrong and pointless pounded into their heads fo rthe past year and a half are not going to come in here just beacuse Koffi Annon tells them to. that leaves the US as the main force, so we are right back to quare one.

Except the Iraqi’s will feel better about the occupation.

Except more countries will support Iraq

Except our deficit will go down

Except we will have more help

Except Iraq will be built up quicker

But yes, we will be back to square one

so knowing that the same US troops who attack and beat them have blessing of Kofi Annon and jaque Chirac will make it all better? I dotn think so.the only way a UN control would work is if the US totally pulled out and were replaced by other UN nations, which isnt going to happen. if som guy beat the crap out of you everyday, and then your mom married him, would that make the guy all of a sudden OK?

Originally posted by Travh20
so knowing that the same US troops who attack and beat them have blessing of Kofi Annon and jaque Chirac will make it all better? I dotn think so.the only way a UN control would work is if the US totally pulled out and were replaced by other UN nations, which isnt going to happen. if som guy beat the crap out of you everyday, and then your mom married him, would that make the guy all of a sudden OK?

No the civilians in Iraq would feel better, that the UN was there, monitoring the troops to make sure that more torturing does not occur. Plus it's just all around better fo the US to have them there, too. Less of a burden, in money, lives, and everything else.

Originally posted by Travh20
so knowing that the same US troops who attack and beat them have blessing of Kofi Annon and jaque Chirac will make it all better? I dotn think so.the only way a UN control would work is if the US totally pulled out and were replaced by other UN nations, which isnt going to happen. if som guy beat the crap out of you everyday, and then your mom married him, would that make the guy all of a sudden OK?

I don't think you understand the situation there very well.

ya and your in on the daily briefings right?

Yeah, the briefings from news reports across the world instead of imagination and memories of somalia

Back On Topic....

Seymour Hersh who broke the story of the Iraqi prisoners being tortured said that it has been going on since last fall, and it is wide spread throughout our whole military.

That is something to think about...

drew, i see the same reports you do. I dont think you are privleged to any information I am not. if I bring up my experiences with the UN it is becaue you are arguing for UN control, I am simply sharing my experiences being under UN control.

liberal, we know you think our military is a bunch of tortureres and murderers, you dont have to spend all your energy convincing us. its to bad you spend so much time trying to convince everyone your country is a big bunch of killers and rapists. it seems the old liberal adage of not labeling a whole group by the actions of a few only goes one way.

Originally posted by Travh20

liberal, we know you think our military is a bunch of tortureres and murderers, you dont have to spend all your energy convincing us. its to bad you spend so much time trying to convince everyone your country is a big bunch of killers and rapists. it seems the old liberal adage of not labeling a whole group by the actions of a few only goes one way.

When did I say our whole military was full of “murderers” and when did I say they were all “torturers”? I never once said that. All I’m presenting is that it is a bigger problem then it seems to the eyes of most Americans. If you cannot understand the sad fact, that more then just several soldiers are committing these acts, ignorance really is bliss.

If I have miss-represented myself to make you believe, I believe all of our soldiers are like this, it's just unrealistic. You are trying to smear me, and accuse me accusations that just aren’t true.

Trav - I'm right with you regarding general impressions of the UN, but that's not really the point right now - there is a hard reality on the ground and our opinion on the UN doesn't change it. It's the Arabs opinion of the UN vs their opinion of the US that counts.

Originally posted by DrewM
Trav - I'm right with you regarding general impressions of the UN, but that's not really the point right now - there is a hard reality on the ground and our opinion on the UN doesn't change it. It's the Arabs opinion of the UN vs their opinion of the US that counts.

DrewM

There is another point to consider: the Arabs prefer the UN just the way high school students prefer a substitute teacher over the usual hardass who forces them to learn. They only want the UN because they will be easier to manipulate and eventually toss out by force so they can go back to fighting amongst themselves until the most vicious clan rises to power. Then, we're in the same boat all over again. Dealing with a group that has a ton of money and power, but no experience in democracy.

Originally posted by jokermik
DrewM

There is another point to consider: the Arabs prefer the UN just the way high school students prefer a substitute teacher over the usual hardass who forces them to learn. They only want the UN because they will be easier to manipulate and eventually toss out by force so they can go back to fighting amongst themselves until the most vicious clan rises to power. Then, we're in the same boat all over again. Dealing with a group that has a ton of money and power, but no experience in democracy.

I see how Republicans use metaphors.

They prefer the UN, because they can build Iraq fast, because they will bring in more help

They prefer the UN, because they most likely will keep more order, with more help

Bottom line, they don’t trust America, never have, and never will. They trust the UN, and that is what counts.

If Bush wanted to really bring democracy to Iraq, he would let the UN handle it. For the Iraqis are not going to corporative with us, but only with the UN.

Perception is reality.

The reality is, if we want to get things done, with the support of the Iraqi people, we have to bring the UN into Iraq.

the problem with democracy in Iraq is that it's never going to turn out our way. When Saddam was in power, the country was pretty much secular, and all of the Shi'ites were being persecuted. Now that we've gone in, they are divinding up parties according to religious groups. the shi'ites are going to take over, if there are legitimate elections, becasue they;re in the majority. there are really good chances that they will turn around and get their revenge on the sunnis, and possibly the kurds. by setting up a democratic state we're going to be allowing the majority to oppress the minority. tyranny of the majority. I think trhe real question is whether what we have now is better or wqorse than what democracy will almost inevitable create?

Originally posted by Liberal 4 Life
Perception is reality.

This has to be one of the stupidist things I have ever heard. Perceptions can be wrong and thus clouding your judgement on reality.

Originally posted by The Republican
This has to be one of the stupidist things I have ever heard. Perceptions can be wrong and thus clouding your judgement on reality.

Why do you think this is stupid? It's a fact of life - plain and simple.

Originally posted by The Republican
This has to be one of the stupidist things I have ever heard. Perceptions can be wrong and thus clouding your judgement on reality.


it's the way one see's the world. no matter how skewed it may be, or how different from your perception, it's the way the other person is experiencing the world. it's that persons's reality. are you trying to say that your perception of the world is truthful, or closer to reality?

Serious question ...

Both investigative committees in the House are refusing to investigate the prisoner abuse claims. The lone investigative committee in the senate is also refusing to investigate. As far as I know, DOJ will not investigate.

Yet we are constantly being told there is a major investigation underway. WTF??

Does that mean the military is investigating itself? If yes, is that satisfactory and does it bring closure to the issue after the military finds itself and all involved not guilty (which I'm sure they will)?

Just wondering

Dop

A letter from a Military Police to Stripes
===========================

Leadership gone bad

I have to say this stuff that happened at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq is an example of leadership gone really bad. I can’t believe for one second that those troops didn’t know what they were doing was wrong. Nor can I believe the command was not aware that it was occurring. It sure doesn’t help our cause here in Iraq or the perspective of our being humane and following the codes of conduct. It really angers me.

Of course this type of behavior has happened in past wars when prisoners were interrogated. But I believed we were above this level of abuse and maltreatment by now. Apparently this is not the case.

I remember when I was attached to a military police company while in the reserves years ago. We were given instructions as to the laws of prisoner treatment and the Geneva Conventions, as we continually do today. The 5 S’s — secure, silence, segregate, safeguard, speed — are taught to all MPs, and the Geneva Conventions laws of prisoner treatment are taught to all soldiers, military interrogators and civilians alike.

It really turns my stomach to think that I’m in the same Army as these people, let alone the same military occupational specialty, and at a level of leadership that allowed it to continue. To use ignorance as an excuse is totally lame. It’s shameful, and they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Sgt. Kevin McCue
Military policeman
Baghdad


http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=21996

what do you care, they are all already guilty in your mind anyway.

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
A letter from a Military Police to Stripes
===========================

Leadership gone bad

I have to say this stuff that happened at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq is an example of leadership gone really bad. I can’t believe for one second that those troops didn’t know what they were doing was wrong. Nor can I believe the command was not aware that it was occurring. It sure doesn’t help our cause here in Iraq or the perspective of our being humane and following the codes of conduct. It really angers me.

Of course this type of behavior has happened in past wars when prisoners were interrogated. But I believed we were above this level of abuse and maltreatment by now. Apparently this is not the case.

I remember when I was attached to a military police company while in the reserves years ago. We were given instructions as to the laws of prisoner treatment and the Geneva Conventions, as we continually do today. The 5 S’s — secure, silence, segregate, safeguard, speed — are taught to all MPs, and the Geneva Conventions laws of prisoner treatment are taught to all soldiers, military interrogators and civilians alike.

It really turns my stomach to think that I’m in the same Army as these people, let alone the same military occupational specialty, and at a level of leadership that allowed it to continue. To use ignorance as an excuse is totally lame. It’s shameful, and they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Sgt. Kevin McCue
Military policeman
Baghdad


http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=21996

its a shame and not in tradition with the US Army. the people who did this should be executed as an example.

Over 400 civilians were killed in My Lia, no one who served in the U.S. army was executed. Leadership during the vietnam war hid the truth and tried to cover up the massacre for over a year but someone finally blew the whistle.

The Pentagon knew from as early as February that abuses were going on in prisons all around Iraq and Afghanistan, but it took pictures for them to do something about it.

What more do they know that they aren't telling us?

you love this shit dont you? you dont want to hear about attrocities commited by saddam or anyone else, but if an american takes a naked picture of a prisoner you want all the details. this will be yours and all the lefts focus from now until the election. I have a feeling if there were forus like this during vietnam it would sound an awful lot lik ethisone today.

Originally posted by Travh20
what do you care, they are all already guilty in your mind anyway.

Apparently Bush thinks they are guilty too.

A quote from one of his interviews on arab TV:

In our country, when there's an allegation of abuse — more than an allegation in this case, actual abuse, we saw the pictures — there will be a full investigation and justice will be delivered.

I agree, the people who did this should be pu tin prison for life, or executed for endangering the lives of the troops. my statement ou quoted was directed at dops belief that ALL the troops are pulling people out of cars and beating them to death for no good reason. he i slike the john kerry of allforums

Originally posted by Travh20
you love this shit dont you? you dont want to hear about attrocities commited by saddam or anyone else, but if an american takes a naked picture of a prisoner you want all the details. this will be yours and all the lefts focus from now until the election. I have a feeling if there were forus like this during vietnam it would sound an awful lot lik ethisone today.

The acts committed by Saddam have nothing to do with this. This is US troops - US leadership. More and more info is coming out - now it's revealed that at least 2 iraqies were murdered by US personel.

There is really only one place to look in this situation - the leadership. They are responsible, they are accountable - in any business the leaders would be for the high jump over this outrage.

Pepper -- great post on My lai -- it hits right at the heart of the problem. They (Powell and friends) covered it up last time and they will do it again. But look for Powell to resign in the very near future. I truly think this one is even too strong for his stomache.

Oh yeah -- Rumsfeld is probably gone now -- he just doesn't realize it yet.

And it doesn't matter what bush says about an investigation. Read my post above where I point out the committees that would normally investigate are refusing to do so.

So ... just who the hell is going to do the investigation?

Dop