Originally posted by DrewM
The acts committed by Saddam have nothing to do with this. This is US troops - US leadership. More and more info is coming out - now it's revealed that at least 2 iraqies were murdered by US personel.

There is really only one place to look in this situation - the leadership. They are responsible, they are accountable - in any business the leaders would be for the high jump over this outrage.


Leaders? like who? I hope you dont mean bush, who just a few posts ago you said was not directly related to the military. why is it that everyone is always trying to just get bush fired? are they afraid of the election? anyway, people will go down for this. dont believe dop and his ulterior motives. reprimand my ass. there will be prison time involved for someone, maybe not all, but some of them.

its to bad people cant use a fraction of the suspicion and revulsion they have towards our troops to pat them on the back. my whole life I have heard not to lump everyone into a category for the actions of a few, nw the same poeple who say that lump over 100,000 people into a group with a few dozen sickos. all good news has ceased, not that there ever was any, but now the entire media is all over this. the attention this is getting and the way the left is trying to classify all the troops as scum is only overshadowed in disgustingness by the act itself.

its to bad people cant use a fraction of the suspicion and revulsion they have towards our troops to pat them on the back. my whole life I have heard not to lump everyone into a category for the actions of a few, nw the same poeple who say that lump over 100,000 people into a group with a few dozen sickos. all good news has ceased, not that there ever was any, but now the entire media is all over this. the attention this is getting and the way the left is trying to classify all the troops as scum is only overshadowed in disgustingness by the act itself. Yikes..yet again today I have to agree with you.

I have read or heard somewhere that there were approx 5-6 soldiers per 900 prisoners. Add that up with the fact that many of them have been there for the duration of this war and what do you get? Burned out, depressed, wacked out soldiers. While I don't condone what they did - and let me repeat that - what they did was totally completely wrong - I can sort of see their mindset.

Originally posted by Travh20
Leaders? like who? I hope you dont mean bush, who just a few posts ago you said was not directly related to the military. why is it that everyone is always trying to just get bush fired? are they afraid of the election? anyway, people will go down for this. dont believe dop and his ulterior motives. reprimand my ass. there will be prison time involved for someone, maybe not all, but some of them.

Of course Bush was not directly responsible - but the buck stops with him. His administration is in charge, his administration picks the people in charge, his administration sets the standard.

There is not one single effective organization in the world where the CEO would walk away scott free on this one.

When you are in charge - you are accountable - this how the world works.

This is a critical time for this administration and the only way to deflect *SOME* of the damage is to have an immediate shake-up. I mean immediate like today or tomorrow -- something that shows they are truely interested in cleaning up the situation.

Let's see what happens.

Dop

Originally posted by DrewM
Of course Bush was not directly responsible - but the buck stops with him. His administration is in charge, his administration picks the people in charge, his administration sets the standard.

There is not one single effective organization in the world where the CEO would walk away scott free on this one.

When you are in charge - you are accountable - this how the world works.

how come when I said the same thing earlier you told me I was wrong. Bush is the top of the chain of command. you cant say that an attack on him isnt an attack on the military then turn around and say he is responsible for all that they do. so is bush in charge of the military or isnt he? you cant have it both ways

Originally posted by Travh20
how come when I said the same thing earlier you told me I was wrong. Bush is the top of the chain of command. you cant say that an attack on him isnt an attack on the military then turn around and say he is responsible for all that they do. so is bush in charge of the military or isnt he? you cant have it both ways

Trav, for someone who was in the military you seem to have no understanding of the role of the President in relation to the military.

The President is the Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces of the United States, AND he's a civilian, which means by definition, he's not a MEMBER of the armed forces.

Since he isn't a MEMBER of the armed forces any criticism of the President is NOT an attack on the armed forces, but since he's in command of the military he should bear responsiblity for their actions.

so you want your cake and eat it to in other words OK. look, I know that the president is a civilian. I know he is the commander in cheif. key word here is commander. you cant say he has to take ultimate responsibility for soomethinghe has no power over. no country can b attacked without the CIC's approval. so, in other words, in a time of war tey are one in the same. just becasue he isnt in a uniform doesnt mena he doesnt represent the men in the war.

Are we going to get to see the rest of the photos and video of the abuse in the concentration camps (that's what you call a facility that houses civilian women and children who have never been charged)?

Rumor, and I repeat it's rumor, has it that there is video of dogs attacking prisoners, videos of prisoners being electrocuted, videos of an elderly Iraqui woman on all fours, harnessed and being ridden like a horse. Also reports of raping women and children and beating prisoners to death.

You can almost bet that if these videos truly exist, they will be cheney'ed pronto for security reasons. There is no way this administration (or any administration) can survive something as horrific as this. If it's true.

Dop

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing

You can almost bet that if these videos truly exist, they will be cheney'ed pronto for security reasons. There is no way this administration (or any administration) can survive something as horrific as this. If it's true.

Dop

Yes, they are true. On the news last night, they had the person who "broke" this story and he said that they have these videos and such. So if you look on any of the "so called" liberal news stations (MSNBC, CNN) and such they have things that prove they exist. Yet, the Republicans own almost all big business....including them. Oh well...I guess I'm wrong, they are liberal. haha. NOT

Originally posted by Travh20
how come when I said the same thing earlier you told me I was wrong. Bush is the top of the chain of command. you cant say that an attack on him isnt an attack on the military then turn around and say he is responsible for all that they do. so is bush in charge of the military or isnt he? you cant have it both ways

Huh?? :confused:

Bush is in charge of the military - i'm not aware of ever saying he wasn't.

He's a civilian - the civilian leadership - he's not in the military. The constitution is set up to ensure that a non-military, civilian is the leader of the military. Civilian, civilian - keep on repeating this. Jeez - why can you never understand simple points? It really gets irritating.

Bush picks the defense secretary, picks the administration - these people set the direction. Nobody is saying Bush condones or wants such abuses to happen - but he is accountable - the buck has to stop at the top.

He missed a golden opportunity today to apologise to the Arab world in his interviews - he didn't. Instead he said stuff like "The Iraqi people MUST understand..." - what a wasted chance to calm some of this.

Rummy will lose his job over this - watch and see.

A call for impeachment was entered in the house record today by a congressman from NJ (can't recall his name). That's not to say there was a call for the articles, just a note in the record. I guess that's like a warning or something. Whatever, but this now means someone has to fall on the sword or it will go to the top.

Rumsfeld is the most likely candidate.

Dop

Sy Hersh has told us that there will be videos of sexual abuse in the childrens wing of Abu Ghraib. So, like good little lemmings they are, the republicans start their damage control.

Today on Hardball, Inhoff (R-congress) said ...

It's OK to rape a 15-year-old girl to get information because we are at war with evil people.

So tell me please, do the republicans on this forum back him on that statement and if yes then what happened to the ever present moral attitude that surrounded us during the 50 million dollar investigation of Clinton's knob-job.

Just asking.

Dop

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing

Today on Hardball, Inhoff (R-congress) said ...

It's OK to rape a 15-year-old girl to get information because we are at war with evil people.


Dop


that is seriously the most disgusting thing I have heard in a long long time. what is wrong with this guy!!!!???? and I thought conservatives were supposed to be the one's with morals.

The demonization of Iraqis began as soon as the Neocons knew that 9/11 traumatized Americans into believing that Moslems were less than human. That was done during Vietnam as well... and there was no concern about killing Gook kids or raping their women. They were the enemy, and anyone labeled an enemy is fair game.

It is so tragic. The most educated, the most secular of all the Moslem countries where women had total equality and life was safe - precisely because a brutal dictator was in charge. Now the nation is in total turmoil.... and the people have been demonized.....so what else is new?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4908787/

new photo...this one is bad.....

There are thousands of stills and videos. Seems they were pretty proud of their deeds. Rummy will fall on his sword...

Originally posted by skipper7
There are thousands of stills and videos. Seems they were pretty proud of their deeds. Rummy will fall on his sword...

hopefully bush will too

No - Bush will never take responsibility for anything. He couldn't even come up with any mistake he had made during these three years during the press conference. He is directed by his God, and can do no wrong. Deaths don't bother him. Torture doesn't bother him. He is above it all. There's a diagnostic term for all that, I'm sure. Some sort of delusional psychosis. But he gets away with it, and the world self destructs.

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing

Today on Hardball, Inhoff (R-congress) said ...

It's OK to rape a 15-year-old girl to get information because we are at war with evil people.


If he said that, that's disgusting.

Rush Limbaugh said that the soldiers were 'just letting off steam." - and that too much of a fuss was being made about them just having a little fun.

There's something horrendlously callous and arrogand about people who only value white Christian life....even in the form of an embryo, - but find war and pain when inflicted on others amusing.

Yeah - Rush is a fuck head junkie.

If anybody should be wired with electrodes and stood on a box it's that mindless crack addicted fat jerk.

Sorry - but that guy is pure scum.

Hate to admit it but the image has its merits.....:-)

The incident that happened in Iraq is no different than what goes on in American prisons across the country everyday. Why is it that we are so desensitized to the violent rapes that occur to our fellow Americans on a daily basis. Our response to these horrible acts of violence is to turn the other page and see how the stock market is doing. What happened in Iraq is indeed unacceptable. However, it is a travesty that we pay no mind to the same crimes that happen on our own turf. The truth of the matter is that the majority of Americans are by no means astonished at the acts commited by our troops. We see it happen here everyday and do nothing. The fact of the matter is that the Liberals simply want Bush's head at any cost.

How many of you would like to be arrested or taken POW by Iraq radicals?? I do not agree with the photos, I do not agree with the treatment, but what makes you think we get much better treatment?? Ask the POWs that were shot and buried in shallow graves, or tortured while injured. It is the pot calling the kettle black. This does reflect badly on us, but many more good men and women are still there fighting and dying. Lets not let these photos tarnish thier pride.

What I am going to say may upset quite a few people but I have been there and speak from experience.
I will not condon the actions of those involved in the torture. I have read many of the posts here and would like to address one statement that seems to run all through the posts.

Paraphrased- These soldiers are treating the prisoners like this because they feel superior.

I don't belive that is the case in the majority of the cases, I have been in more than one combat zone and the disabled victim of a terror attack on october 23 1983. So what I feel is that it is the same response mechanism that some police officers go through after a high speed chase where their lives were in danger.

Our soldiers are human and a very few are not good people, the military is after nothing more than a cross section of us.
Let me sum this up, I don't belive that the soldiers were acting on a feeling of superiority just because we are Americans. Dehumanizing your enemy is a way to deal with pulling the trigger and taking anothers life. Well once dehumanized they can't be rehumanized that easily.

Judge them with the evidence not with your outrage.

Thank you for putting up with my ramblings.


God Bless America.

Hi Beirut - welcome to AllForums. I hope you like it here and continue to post - I am sure that your experiences in the past will add a lot of value to the discussions here.

I agree that soldiers are just a cross-section, so there will always be some bad apples. What I think is different in this situation is the scope - based on Red Cross reports, the volume of photo's and the nature of the abuses - it looks like it was the general norm at that time (set by the leaders in the prison, or ignored by them)

Thank you for your welcome.

The scope of this may not be a wide spread as we are being led to believe. I say this not to defend the soldiers but to question the media. This scandal promises to sell products for a long time, the bigger it is the more it sells.

While I was in the Root I thought the country knew that we were engaged in daily combat from August of 1983 on but when I came home only the bombing of the BLT was ever really publicized.

A Peace Keeping Force under fire only sells products if large loss of life has taken place or they have screwed up.

Our Marines in the Root were only allowed to return fire if they could see the shooter and he was not running away. Many times our post had to sit and watch as the would be sniper built his make shift bunker, rifle slung over his shoulder. Then once the sniper went into the bunker and fired then he was a valid target but if he ran firing had to stop.

Again I am long winded and I apologize.

Blaming the troops is another outrage. Not only are the men and women exhausted and undermanned, but they are given explicit orders to 'soften up' the evil, horrible, less than human Iraqis. Sadly, the ICRC now corroborates the Taguba report....even moreso, saying that 90 percent of the 'detainees' were innocent civilians who were being interrogated so they would rat on insurgents and Saddam supporters. This is a systemic problem, being carried out a SOP and planned by the guys at the top who will not be held accountable. A few young troops will bear the shame....and then Bush and his idiot cadre will think all is over. No way. Not in the Moslem world. Wait and see.

This is just sadning. I think we had enough torturing and curruptions Sadam had his regiem, why the hell would "U.S. citiciens" do this even it ordered to? The people who did this should not be court marsharled at all, but instead be tried in a federal court. I heard what bush said about rumsfield (or whoever that is, i forgot) and i was shocked, he said "rumsfield is doing a superb job" now that is some striaght up bullshit if i ever heard any. rumsfield ignored statments from the red cross deliberately and he still gets to go back to capital hill tomarow, i lost a lot of respect for george bush today even thought i thought how he handled 911 was good this was just a petty war and more bullshit has arose for this. everyone is looking down on america and i am pissed off about all this, we had no voice in the iraqi war at all and thats not how democracy works, this is just an example of how even such a good government system can be corrupted in such little time. i say fuck those who perticapated in theses acts, fuck bush, and fuck rumsfield, and for the great people who have done a good job in this war, many thanks.

Originally posted by honestyhurts
How many of you would like to be arrested or taken POW by Iraq radicals?? I do not agree with the photos, I do not agree with the treatment, but what makes you think we get much better treatment?? Ask the POWs that were shot and buried in shallow graves, or tortured while injured. It is the pot calling the kettle black. This does reflect badly on us, but many more good men and women are still there fighting and dying. Lets not let these photos tarnish thier pride.

very good points, i thought of that myeself but why should we return the vile and hatefull acts on them? its a two way street, they can get away with it but we, being americans and the superpower of the world, can not get away with such acts. its wrong for us to do that, and its wrong for them to do that, and thats why they decided to liberate iraq (not to mension terorist), but i dont think it was this much of a priority.

Ishbula - welcome to allforums :)

It's right that our guys wouldn't get the same treatment - but two wrongs don't make a right.

At the end of the day right is right & wrong is wrong. Wrong does not become right because somebody else gets away with doing wrong.

Abusing the prisoners was wrong - unless ones morality makes beatings and abuse perfectly ok, then it's hard to make a case that these acts were in reality ok.

Originally posted by DrewM
Abusing the prisoners was wrong - unless ones morality makes beatings and abuse perfectly ok, then it's hard to make a case that these acts were in reality ok.

Thanks for the welcoming! Anyways what you said is true but let me ask you this: do you think its right that with a court marshall they face up to one year in prison? These are iraqi civilians and most of them are innocent (i think 90%?). i mean if these people willingly beat and shamed these people, i think they should be looking to a minumum manditory sentance of 6 months incarceration - 8 years, not just a maximum of just one year. note: this is only if they did this on their own will, i have no opinion if they were actualy ordered to do that (that one woman looked like she enjoyed it though) because its too hard to say if their own morality did not feel like this should happen or even if they objected at all.

Being a veteran I would place the blame for this on the commanders and the troops and let me explain. If an order is given to violate any laws whether Federal,State, UCMJ (Universal Code of Military Justice) and Geneva Convention it is your duty to report it to a higher authority. If you believe that your chain of command is involved in the giving of that order then seek out an independent authority. Now this can be percieved as mutinous but if you have documentation and your disregard for the order will do no harm then you have right on your side. Now 40 years ago this was very hard to pull off due to lack of communication but in this day when communicating is readily available there is no excuse.

I would also like to say that I don't condone violence and punishment, and in no way think it's right to do that to a person,
but...
let's think about this. If we were a small country, defeniding ourselves against Iraqi terrosts, and our soldiers would have been caputred and put in their prisons, the treatment of our soldiers by them would have been much worse. As it has been for those that have been captured by the terroists in the past. They wouldn't think twice about any moral aspect of anything, when it would come to how they treated their prisoners. Their women have been emprisoned and tortured all their lives. Yet we don't talk about that. They are beaton daily , and tortured, and belive me I've heard stories straight from the horses mouth. (Women that have been fortunate enough to escape that life) They can't show their faces even... think about it.

Those individuals that are in the prisons I'm sure have killed and tortured other people. And I guess now it's happening to them. It does not in anyway give anyone else the right to do it, but if things were turned around they would have done the same thing to our soldiers.

And yes this type of thing happens in every prison, accross the world. And we should be above that sort of mentality, torture and physical pain. those pics humiliate the prisoners and the soldiers at the same time!!!

Yes, this couldn't have happend at a much worse time. With election coming up, we are torn. Whats right and whats wrong.

As far as media goes. There is a lot of stuff we don't know. The info is out there, but it's in little pieces and not spelled out and spoon fed. We have to use our judgment, and intelligence to piece information together and make some educated guesses, courses of action, and decision on how we feel about what is happening.
We are quick to put a blame on people, but I'm not so certain that one person like Bush is personally responsible for everything.

One this is certain for me. I would in no way would like to be a prisoner in an Iraqi prison, especially being a woman. I don't think I could even image what would have been done to me.

I would like to point out that the only time the global community can agree if something is wrong it is against the U.S. and the only time the press decides if it is a "bad thing" if there is money in it.

Is it coincidence that almost everytime the economy is blossoming the incumbent is voted out of office? Or is it that when the economy is good advertising dollars go up and the media outlets need a good scandal to sell?

Once again this IMHO.

QUOTE]Originally posted by calistoga
I would also like to say that I don't condone violence and punishment, and in no way think it's right to do that to a person,
but...
let's think about this. If we were a small country, defeniding ourselves against Iraqi terrosts, and our soldiers would have been caputred and put in their prisons, the treatment of our soldiers by them would have been much worse. As it has been for those that have been captured by the terroists in the past. They wouldn't think twice about any moral aspect of anything, when it would come to how they treated their prisoners. Their women have been emprisoned and tortured all their lives. Yet we don't talk about that. They are beaton daily , and tortured, and belive me I've heard stories straight from the horses mouth. (Women that have been fortunate enough to escape that life) They can't show their faces even... think about it. [/QUOTE]

Yes it would be worse, but do we want to act like the very people we are trying to defeat? That leaves no room for separation of “Good” and “Evil”. If we are the so called “Good” and we act like the “Evil” it defeats the purpose of that separation. It defeats the purpose of us, saving their people, of “Evil” to act just like the “Evil” we are saving the people from. You can say that they torture the women and all the other things. But how do you know that we aren’t doing the same, since the majority of the horrific, horrible, cruel, and torturous photos and video haven’t been released. To say, “we can torture them” because they would “torture” us, is just condoning what they indeed did and saying it is right. It also becomes hypocritical and unethical to commit the same crimes they do.

To tell the world they are evil, and then do the same, makes us look just as bad as them. It is only continuing the hate, and torture around the world.

Today a man has his head cut off in Iraq, because he was American. The reason for this, was because of the torture our soldiers committed against them. That further proves that us torturing them, will only make them want to torture us more, and in a more harmful, deadly way. It will only aggravate them. It will only lead to them treating our POW’s worse, if we act harsh towards them.

Originally posted by calistoga
Those individuals that are in the prisons I'm sure have killed and tortured other people. And I guess now it's happening to them. It does not in anyway give anyone else the right to do it, but if things were turned around they would have done the same thing to our soldiers.

Please cite or give me links in telling me they were also linked to torturing and committing these crimes. Also, just because they “may” do the same thing, now they WILL do the same thing, because we have done this to them.

It is hypocritical to say, well they did it, so they are getting pay-back. It defeats the purpose of saying torturing is wrong, if we do it as well.

Originally posted by calistoga
As far as media goes. There is a lot of stuff we don't know. The info is out there, but it's in little pieces and not spelled out and spoon fed. We have to use our judgment, and intelligence to piece information together and make some educated guesses, courses of action, and decision on how we feel about what is happening.
We are quick to put a blame on people, but I'm not so certain that one person like Bush is personally responsible for everything.

I blame Bush, for Chain Of Command. He elects people, who elect people, who then place people in charge of what goes on into Iraq. Bush’s poor judgment (Rumsfield) of elected people, has led to this happening.


Originally posted by calistoga
One this is certain for me. I would in no way would like to be a prisoner in an Iraqi prison, especially being a woman. I don't think I could even image what would have been done to me.

No one would, and no one would want to be. No one would also want to be in American prison now. Even though it was MAYBE just a few cases, (the photos that are out now, have been from at least two different prisons, and we haven’t even seen the half of it) the world and Arab world has made it seem like we are all like this.

It is shaming our name and country. Perception is Reality, and their perception is that we are evil, Arab Hating, and torturous. That is why Democracy will not work in Iraq...now that they have this perception of us.

You better be more scared now, more then ever, of what they will do to you. Now that we have committed torturous crimes against their POW’s...they will only do worse and more cruel things to our POW’s. So actually, them getting a taste of their own medicine, has backfired. We will now get it worse, when we are captured. Not mention it defeats the purpose of saying torturing is wrong, if we do it as well.

Again, all the pictures and video has not yet been released. For all we know, tons of prisons could have been doing this. For all we know, we could be severely torturing their POW’s...because the worst is yet to come.

The best reason to treat prisoners according to Geneva Conventions is that when Americans are captured we demand that they be treated correctly. Of course...we do have to remember who are the invaders and who are the people invaded and occupied.... Kind of makes you wonder what the hell is going on at all.

Hey... I wrote to the editor of TvNewsLies.org, the site that links to the photos...and he said the response from this site has been FANTASTIC.... It has upped his ratings this week to some humungous level!

That's great! The site has been up only a year and has close to 2 million hits. This really boosts him. Keep those clicks coming! He's very up about the response.

Originally posted by skipper7
The best reason to treat prisoners according to Geneva Conventions is that when Americans are captured we demand that they be treated correctly. Of course...we do have to remember who are the invaders and who are the people invaded and occupied.... Kind of makes you wonder what the hell is going on at all.

I prefer the terms liberators and liberated but, eh, you do have a point in your first sentence.

Originally posted by skipper7
The best reason to treat prisoners according to Geneva Conventions is that when Americans are captured we demand that they be treated correctly. Of course...we do have to remember who are the invaders and who are the people invaded and occupied.... Kind of makes you wonder what the hell is going on at all.

this post kind of makes me wonder whos side you are on

I'm an American who has been opposed to this war from day one. I'm on the side of those who saw this as a PNAC war and a totally criminal act by this administation. I'm on the side that wants our kids home and out of harm's way, and wants no more Iraqis dead by out hands.

The talk about liberation is fine and dandy - but lets not forget, the reason for this war is WMD - not liberation.

If it was liberation - there are a dozen other places we should be invading also. Of course, we don't - because this is not about liberating the Iraqi people. That's not our job - that would be the job of the Iraqi people.

One of the reasons is Liberation another is WMD but lets not forget that Hussien accept the terms of surrender to end Gulf War part 1 and then for the next 10 years violated every one of them. And a surrender treaty broken then allows the resumption of fighting without further cause. So by his iwn actions whether we wanted to liberate or find WMD's we and the U.N. had the right to take action to enforce the treaty.
Now since the U.N., France,Germany and Russia were in bed with Hussien they oppossed the war. I guess I would have oppossed it as well if I knew that the force going in was far superior and would find documents implicating me in assisting Hussien in violating the terms of the surrender.