I was wondering something most religions say how great things will be when one dies as long as they except "this or that". So my question is once you learn your religion why not just die{however} and go be happy?

Originally posted by mad dog
I was wondering something most religions say how great things will be when one dies as long as they except "this or that". So my question is once you learn your religion why not just die{however} and go be happy?
I recall the Bible comdemning suicide somewhere...maybe Proverbs? I don't know about other religions, though.

I do remember that also, but I've also heard some folks say suicide isn't a sin???? I just wonder why stay here on this planet and put up with all the endless crap when you could just go be in "a heaven". What is the reason to take on a human form if in the end you'll spend forever in heaven, why even bother with the human part? Some religion's say the soul starts in heaven then it is born a baby then when dead goes back to heaven. Why not just keep everything in heaven in the 1st place? WHAT IS MANS PURPOSE???

What about mercy killings? Don't think the bible mentions those anywhere? Could this be a justified way for someone to get into heaven?

Originally posted by BorgHunter
I recall the Bible comdemning suicide somewhere...maybe Proverbs? I don't know about other religions, though.

Actually the Bible makes no reference to suicide. Tis a myth.

Originally posted by mad dog
I do remember that also, but I've also heard some folks say suicide isn't a sin???? I just wonder why stay here on this planet and put up with all the endless crap when you could just go be in "a heaven". What is the reason to take on a human form if in the end you'll spend forever in heaven, why even bother with the human part? Some religion's say the soul starts in heaven then it is born a baby then when dead goes back to heaven. Why not just keep everything in heaven in the 1st place? WHAT IS MANS PURPOSE???

I have NO clue what the purpose of life is....hell, I can't even find a purpose at my crap job....but the Bible states all through it that life is suppose to be God's gift to us. :confused:

An interesting question is whether it's mentally and spiritually healthy when people decide to become religious solely for the purpose of going to heaven (or, for religions without heaven, solely for whatever benefits is there).

Influencial or not, anthropologically speaking all religions were first founded because there's societal need for its people to behave a certain way (which hopefully leads to prosperous and peaceful society). There are good things to do and there are bad things to do, and what a certain religion stated as good things or bad things, upon close inspection have usually reflected the societal need of the time and place the religion was first founded. You see, the point is, if a religion is founded carefully and its guidelines sound, when people follow it correctly their present life will improve spiritually, mentally, and physically. If you do a couple years of "good things" as described by a religion and commit suicide, I can't say whether you will go to heaven or not, but it would certainly seem like a case of escapism taking to the extremes. If you do end up there that way god might not approve of that, and personally kicks you out at the gates. Again, not everyone become religious because they feel they live a miserable life. Some people love their present life, but choose to follow a religion simply because it makes them even happier.

Now about the purpose of men.

I could easily let my imaginations run wild on this one. In the end, however, I usually take on the "me first" perspective. Basically, I believe my purpose is to simply be. All decisions I make are relevant, all things I do have consequences and affects someone else and myself. My happiness and anger mattered because they mattered at the very least to myself. In the end, it all comes down to whether I mattered to myself, and I certainly do. If you do not matter to yourself, there is no reason to talk about purpose.

My grandma used to tell me that life was a huge sifter....keeping all the rocks to be thrown away, while the pure fall through...ummm....she was Baptist :(

Originally posted by mad dog
WHAT IS MANS PURPOSE???
This is a question that has been endlessly debated for thousands of years by religions all over the world, and will probably still be debated thousands of years from now (if we make it that far). Some claim to know our “purpose” here on Earth, but the straight truth is, nobody knows for sure. Obviously, this was something we weren’t meant to know. I know we as human beings HAVE a purpose because of our ability and intelligence as compared to other living creatures. We are far more advanced than any other lifeform on earth, so obviously our being here goes beyond mere existence. I’m sure we’ll eventually find out what the purpose of life is, when the time is right.

There are lots of religions that condemn suicide. It’s sometimes easy to become tempted to end it all, but that’s just one of many temptations we try to avoid. The unique thing about suicide is it’s a one-way street; you can’t change your mind or redeem yourself afterward. The way I see it, death is going to come soon enough, no reason to speed things up.

Originally posted by silverbulletkc
What about mercy killings? Don't think the bible mentions those anywhere? Could this be a justified way for someone to get into heaven?

{1} Are you talking about something like killing someone who is suffering so bad and has no hope of getting better. I see nothing wrong with this.

{2}I have lost touch with other mens writtings of what is right or wrong so maybe someone that uses the bible could answer this.

{3}Lets say your wife is suffering terribly with NO help in site she is going to die and ask if you could end it for her sooner. I think this would be a hard BUT noble thing to do. I know I would rather pass then lay in a bed suffering for the next-----amount of time.

Originally posted by Core
I have NO clue what the purpose of life is....hell, I can't even find a purpose at my crap job....but the Bible states all through it that life is suppose to be God's gift to us. :confused:

Your Job or any Job for that matter is a money maker, mans modern worship, it really has nothing to do with the meaning of life or living.

I have noticed allmost every religion says life is a gift from above{or from the greater powers} I ask this then why does one religion feel that they should go to war with or put down anothers beliefs? :confused:

Originally posted by Dio Seijuro
An interesting question is whether it's mentally and spiritually healthy when people decide to become religious solely for the purpose of going to heaven (or, for religions without heaven, solely for whatever benefits is there).

I found it very interesting how much the church services went up after 9/11. I also find it interesting when folks say I'll except this or that because it is better to be safe then sorry. When folks act like this are they truely religious?

Influencial or not, anthropologically speaking all religions were first founded because there's societal need for its people to behave a certain way (which hopefully leads to prosperous and peaceful society).

I agree and disagree, some beliefs started because of fear of the unknown. Joe Caveman did something he felt was bad, then there was a horrible storm, Joe believes the God/God's are pi**ed.

Now go ahead in time and religion proved to be more powerfull then all the money in the world. When money wasn't worshipped, like it is today, religion was the power.

There are good things to do and there are bad things to do, and what a certain religion stated as good things or bad things, upon close inspection have usually reflected the societal need of the time and place the religion was first founded. You see, the point is, if a religion is founded carefully and its guidelines sound, when people follow it correctly their present life will improve spiritually, mentally, and physically. If you do a couple years of "good things" as described by a religion

This also depends on which group of people you are with at the time. I'm sure if Bush were with Osama neither religion would be correct. The good bad and ugly are invented by man. {I'm not speaking of killings or violent crimes} Man has thrown HIS set of rules in for what he THINKS god wants.

and commit suicide, I can't say whether you will go to heaven or not, but it would certainly seem like a case of escapism taking to the extremes.

One persons extreme may not be the same as another so when they do kill themself maybe they feel they did all they could? Not an excape but a new search.

If you do end up there that way god might not approve of that, and personally kicks you out at the gates.

Once again though this is man throwing in his idea of a God/Gods

Again, not everyone become religious because they feel they live a miserable life. Some people love their present life, but choose to follow a religion simply because it makes them even happier.

When I find folks like this I feel they truly may know or feel something that others do not understand. They truely are religious and have a true belief.

I could easily let my imaginations run wild on this one. In the end, however, I usually take on the "me first" perspective. Basically, I believe my purpose is to simply be. All decisions I make are relevant, all things I do have consequences and affects someone else and myself. My happiness and anger mattered because they mattered at the very least to myself. In the end, it all comes down to whether I mattered to myself, and I certainly do. If you do not matter to yourself, there is no reason to talk about purpose.

I do agree

Originally posted by Mopoloton
Some claim to know our “purpose” here on Earth, but the straight truth is, nobody knows for sure.

Or could it be we all know deep down inside, but just don't know how to reach the answer.

Obviously, this was something we weren’t meant to know. I know we as human beings HAVE a purpose because of our ability and intelligence as compared to other living creatures. We are far more advanced than any other lifeform on earth, so obviously our being here goes beyond mere existence. I’m sure we’ll eventually find out what the purpose of life is, when the time is right.

Are we really more "advanced"? Here is why I ask we know the difference between right and wrong, we know what can and can't hurt us, but we still commit STUPID acts every day. Is something really smarter because it knows what 2+2 is but then goes out and does crack. Are we smarter when we produce sh** that we don't need which inturn makes more pollution which inturn is destroying the very thing that is giving us life{the planet}. Smarts are not building the bigest or the best, Smarts are having the ability to relize what's happening.

There are lots of religions that condemn suicide. It’s sometimes easy to become tempted to end it all, but that’s just one of many temptations we try to avoid.

This is my question is it a "temptation" or is it just another part of life. Why do some religions say it is wrong to commit suicide? Is this mans teachings or is it Gods?

The unique thing about suicide is it’s a one-way street; you can’t change your mind or redeem yourself afterward. The way I see it, death is going to come soon enough, no reason to speed things up. [/B]

I agree, but if someone makes the choice to end it who am I {or anyother human} to say Gods not going to be happy with you?

Originally posted by mad dog
Your Job or any Job for that matter is a money maker, mans modern worship, it really has nothing to do with the meaning of life or living.

I guess that's why I'm not to thrilled about my job. I think it's because I feel that my purpose should be my job. I am in social work. It started out that I was a chemical dependency counselor in an adolesent residential facility. I loved that job, then the government closed it due to lack of funding.
(meaning.....non profits are regulated by credentialing agencies hired by the government...and rightly so. However when you radically raise the bar on protocols and do not provide funding for these changes, facilities close. I ended up running about 5 more counseling programs and once again....they were closed to do shifts in managed care versus state billing. ANYWHO....I find myself working for a University running HIV prevention programs. After the cut for substance abuse treatment....there was still some for HIV.
You are right, we all work to get paid, however social work is not really something you get paid a lot for, so you must find some sense of self purpose....here I do not. Only because I'm in limbo with funding decisions currently. When I came here four years ago, I ran six programs that have now been cut to two. It seems that now they are doing the same thing with HIV moneys as they did to substance abuse five years ago. That leaves a lot of time on my hands and sometimes I feel guilty about it. In the past when I had down time I would write grants to try and fund other programs. However, now grant opportunities are few and far between. Thus.....here I am. Filling my days with internet.
I'm NOT trying to play the victim, as I am currently looking at other employment oppotunities. But it seems that I am not alone in the fact that several people my age are in jobs in which they have nothing to do.

I have noticed allmost every religion says life is a gift from above{or from the greater powers} I ask this then why does one religion feel that they should go to war with or put down anothers beliefs? :confused: [/B]

I don't really think I can speak for why religions go to war....I mean I think that's kinda obvious. Radically religious people are conditioned to believe that the ultimate sacrifice for your Lord would be your life. And putting other's beliefs down because they are not your own......hummmm. This should be a whole new thread. Seriously.

Core;

{1}Don't get me wrong there are honorable Jobs out there, doc's yourself, police, fire, etc... but if pay is not involved people find something else. Who gets more recognition Bill Gates or someplace like were you are? Schools for teaching or wal-mart for claiming to give donations{which are really just tax right offs} See what I mean money is power, and money talks. If society did give a hoot then maybe the jobs that help others would be more valued.

{2} I didn't but this into a different thread because it all ties in together. For years religions have been using war, but turn around and claim peace. They say fight, & die for what you believe, but turn around and say treat your fellow man with respect. Then one group claims there heaven to be the one and only{peacefull place} while the other group claims theirs to be the one and only. So why bother going to war at all, just do a Jim Jones, everyone in the group drink the poison and go be happy. The question is How can any religion preach peace and use words of war at the same time?

Originally posted by mad dog
Core;

{1}Don't get me wrong there are honorable Jobs out there, doc's yourself, police, fire, etc... but if pay is not involved people find something else. Who gets more recognition Bill Gates or someplace like were you are? Schools for teaching or wal-mart for claiming to give donations{which are really just tax right offs} See what I mean money is power, and money talks. If society did give a hoot then maybe the jobs that help others would be more valued.

Not all people find something else because of money. I would rather work for less, just to feel I'm doing something more for society. You are prorbably right in that I am in the minority. But, I'm glad that here in America we can choose whether to be a Bill Gates or a social worker. I think society cares a lot more about helping others than you express though mad dog. I mean the place where I work gets A LOT of recognition in what we do. We are one of the nations top research and medical education facilities. That makes me proud. We have MANY people such as Bill Gates that donate tons of money to maintain what we do here. (and I think it's great the there are tax write offs to reward them) Look at the Salvation Army....they are rehabilitating thousands of people a year. I think I grasp what you are trying to say though. It's a sad affair that teachers get crap for pay, and social workers, etc. Money IS power...but money is only as important as one individual makes it within themselves. I was listening to NPR yesterday (TOTALLY OFF THE SUBJECT) and they were interviewing a Chinese man who had been held in prison 8 years for practicing Christianity. He was in charge of cleaning the sewage tank daily. He said he thanked God that everyday he had a place to go that no one would go into and he could be by himself to spend time with God. I think my point is that each individual on this planet needs to find solice within themselves. For some it's money. Wellllll, for the majority it seems to be money. But for others it's cleaning up shit it prison. I am disgruntled about my job because I need to find something fulfilling for me. To bring us back to the original topic....a purpose for my life.


{2} I didn't but this into a different thread because it all ties in together. For years religions have been using war, but turn around and claim peace. They say fight, & die for what you believe, but turn around and say treat your fellow man with respect. Then one group claims there heaven to be the one and only{peacefull place} while the other group claims theirs to be the one and only. So why bother going to war at all, just do a Jim Jones, everyone in the group drink the poison and go be happy. The question is How can any religion preach peace and use words of war at the same time? [/B]
Wellll, Jim Jones huh? I don't think it's that simple. People want to live in a place where the have the freedom to believe in what they want to. You may have to live in a society that will bombard you with prejudice and criticism...but ultimately you have the right to practice whatever it is you feel is best for you. Within every religion there is a moral devotion to fight for that right. Thus war. Jim Jones man.....I don't know that that is even comparable to fighting in what you believe...although, I guess taking the poison was their way of fighting a society....I digress here because I truly cannot comprehend what those people were thinking.

Once there was only One. The Universe was not divided into objects and forces (pre-big bang). Then "BOOM" (or maybe "BANG") the objects and forces erupted into being all of a sudden.

The One wanted to be many. We exist because the Universe wanted to be see itself. Think of how awesome it is to look out into space or even into a majestic valley.

Like someone said before, the point of life is to decide what the point is. Those who wander in search of a point "somewhere out there" will always wander and wonder.

Zen students would say there is no point. Which, inherently, there isn't. That means we are free to determine our own purpose.

Originally posted by Core
]Not all people find something else because of money. I would rather work for less, just to feel I'm doing something more for society.

I agree, but you still are forced to take the job that pays. Society has built a "money boss", there are things we can all do to help others, but without the GOD allmighty dollar we are nothing.

You are prorbably right in that I am in the minority. But, I'm glad that here in America we can choose whether to be a Bill Gates or a social worker. I think society cares a lot more about helping others than you express though mad dog.

I am not the best at making my point over the computer but something comes to mind. Lets take Joe the janitor that only makes 20,000 a year. Now take the movie star that makes 5,000,000 a year. They both need a medical treatment who gets the better care? I know this answer VERY well because it has happened close to me. Money talks bullsh** walks.

I mean the place where I work gets A LOT of recognition in what we do. We are one of the nations top research and medical education facilities. That makes me proud. We have MANY people such as Bill Gates that donate tons of money to maintain what we do here. (and I think it's great the there are tax write offs to reward them) Look at the Salvation Army....they are rehabilitating thousands of people a year.

Let me put it this way how many know about you and your work and how many know of Bill Gates?

I think I grasp what you are trying to say though. It's a sad affair that teachers get crap for pay, and social workers, etc. Money IS power...but money is only as important as one individual makes it within themselves.

This is true to a point, society also makes money important which in turn reflects on all. Take my medical ex. above I can be happy making diddly but if something happens and I don't have MONEY then I'm screwed.


I was listening to NPR yesterday (TOTALLY OFF THE SUBJECT) and they were interviewing a Chinese man who had been held in prison 8 years for practicing Christianity. He was in charge of cleaning the sewage tank daily. He said he thanked God that everyday he had a place to go that no one would go into and he could be by himself to spend time with God. I think my point is that each individual on this planet needs to find solice within themselves.

This is my point about religion, why did one being find fault with another just because his unharmfull beliefs are different? If the chinese believe in a peacefull God{?} then why did they inflict missery on another?

For some it's money. Wellllll, for the majority it seems to be money. But for others it's cleaning up shit it prison. I am disgruntled about my job because I need to find something fulfilling for me. To bring us back to the original topic....a purpose for my life.

In America the trend seems to be money, I here more people worried about there dollar bill then they are with there kids.

I do like your way of thinking and we really are on the same note. I was just watching folks awhile back and how materialistic society has become, SAD. I have seen how some have used the church for a status not for a belief. I am not Christian, but find it disturbing when I here someone say "he/she goes to church so they are good folk". Meanwhile I see the same "good folk" out cheating and doing other bad acts to there fellow man. I do believe in a higher power, but have been scoughed at because I'm not Christian, why?


Wellll, Jim Jones huh? I don't think it's that simple. People want to live in a place where the have the freedom to believe in what they want to. You may have to live in a society that will bombard you with prejudice and criticism...but ultimately you have the right to practice whatever it is you feel is best for you.

History has proven that is not true, Hitler, your above example, the Romans etc...

Within every religion there is a moral devotion to fight for that right. Thus war.

But in most religions don't they teach peace as the MOST important part?

Jim Jones man.....I don't know that that is even comparable to fighting in what you believe...although, I guess taking the poison was their way of fighting a society....I digress here because I truly cannot comprehend what those people were thinking. ]

I didn't say I agreed with that group I was just throwimg it out there. I also can not see how someone could muster the power to have so many die for their way of thinking. It just like the guy out in CA that had the men cut of there stuff and catch a rid on the rock. Maybe they knew something we didn't/don't :eek:

Originally posted by Ed Blank
]Once there was only One. The Universe was not divided into objects and forces (pre-big bang). Then "BOOM" (or maybe "BANG") the objects and forces erupted into being all of a sudden.

Was this the 1st time they exploded into many or had they been many before? Could everything have become one, and then bang become many again?

The One wanted to be many. We exist because the Universe wanted to be see itself. Think of how awesome it is to look out into space or even into a majestic valley.

So now that the universe has seen itself what's next, or is that it? Has the purpose allready happened and now are we just here to do whatever?

Like someone said before, the point of life is to decide what the point is. Those who wander in search of a point "somewhere out there" will always wander and wonder.

But if one doesn't wander and wonder have they found anything?

Zen students would say there is no point. Which, inherently, there isn't. That means we are free to determine our own purpose.

So Zen has the answer which is NOTHING{no point}? How can an answer be nothing? There is an answer, even if it is small something like, just to live. I don't believe {atleast with our knowledge} have the power to determine our own purpose, there are to many facters that we have no control over.

Originally posted by mad dog
I agree, but you still are forced to take the job that pays. Society has built a "money boss", there are things we can all do to help others, but without the GOD allmighty dollar we are nothing.

Well I have to agree with you. I mean sense the beginning of time people had some sense of trade. Whether it was cows and sheep to as you put it "the almighty dollar". I don't necessarily know if that's bad. Is it sad that the people with the most wins? I'm not too sure. Again, I think that the dollar alone is not evil, it's a sense of trade, but the importance men put on it in their own hearts is what we are dealing with in society today. And that's a human issue, not nessarily the "dollar" or any sense of trade for that matter. Someone is always going to get screwed...that's why it is important to decide how you are going to deal with it.


I am not the best at making my point over the computer but something comes to mind. Lets take Joe the janitor that only makes 20,000 a year. Now take the movie star that makes 5,000,000 a year. They both need a medical treatment who gets the better care? I know this answer VERY well because it has happened close to me. Money talks bullsh** walks. [/B]

The movie star will get the better care. Plain and simple. Is that right? No it's not. But do you think that Joe has the same opportunity in America to become a movie star?? I guess I've worked with so many unprivledged people in the last seven years that really what to be angry about society but to tell you the truth the majority of them didn't change a lot from one session to the other because they didn't take the initiative. It's sad but we all have the same power within ourselves to get what we need. I do believe that life is survival of the fittest.


Let me put it this way how many know about you and your work and how many know of Bill Gates?[/B]

I don't know if UT Southwestern Medical Center has done as much for society as Bill Gates though. Are you using Windows right now?


This is true to a point, society also makes money important which in turn reflects on all. Take my medical ex. above I can be happy making diddly but if something happens and I don't have MONEY then I'm screwed.[/B]

I'm sorry to hear about your medical experiences I really am. Have you tried to join a lobbyist group to advocate for managed health care of revised medical treatment? But what steps are you taking in order to have the money if an emergency arises? Savings, investments? My husband and I put $80 a month in a contigency plan just for emergencies. I know it doesn't sound like a lot, but we have found a bank that adds interest to what we put in and already have $3,000 just in case.




This is my point about religion, why did one being find fault with another just because his unharmfull beliefs are different?[/B]

I would venture to say fear and ignorance. Fear that someone might convince them that their religion doesn't hold water. I feel that sometimes people that fight with their spirituality the most, are the ones trying to convert others as fast as they can, and do not tolerate others very well.

If the chinese believe in a peacefull God{?} then why did they inflict missery on another?[/B]

Huh?


In America the trend seems to be money, I here more people worried about there dollar bill then they are with there kids.[/B]

But that's individual. Not necessarily "society". I have counseled SO many people that the crack pipe is more important than their children, or their boyfriend is more important than the kids, or their religion has made it impossible for them to care for their homosexual kids.....I could go on. It's not just money mad dog. It's values, priorities. And yes....some people's priorities are money. You can think that sad because you priorities are elsewhere. But what are YOU going to do about it? How are you going to deal?



I do like your way of thinking and we really are on the same note. I was just watching folks awhile back and how materialistic society has become, SAD. I have seen how some have used the church for a status not for a belief. I am not Christian, but find it disturbing when I here someone say "he/she goes to church so they are good folk". [/B]

Yeah that is sad. But people have always judged others. It's human nature. Again, I blame this on fear and ignorance. Fear of not confronting the fact that EVERYONE IN THE WORLD is hypocritical at one point or another. There are NO perfect people....regardless if they attend church daily.



Meanwhile I see the same "good folk" out cheating and doing other bad acts to there fellow man. I do believe in a higher power, but have been scoughed at because I'm not Christian, why?[/B]

Fear and ignorance. I AM SOOOOOO SORRY that there are some Christians out there doing that to people and scaring them away from something that might be wonderful for them. About a month ago I went to sixth street in Austin. I had left a bar and there was a man my age on the corner with his Bible in the air. He was yelling at the people and telling them to repent or they were going to fry in hell. I asked him to speak with me for awhile, and to start lower his Bible to my eyes instead of over my head. He continued to yell Bible versus at me. He was scared to death of me. I think he thought I was Satan (IGNORANCE) I told him that Jesus would not and DID not preach this way. I told him that I didn't understand his purpose on the street. Was he trying to save people? Didn't feel that way to me. He never stopped to talk to me. THIS my friend breaks my heart. It's people like that that give Christianity a bad name and I really feel sorry for him. I have a sneaking suspiscion when he gets to Heaven...Jesus will say "WHAT THE HELL WERE YOU THINKING?"


History has proven that is not true, Hitler, your above example, the Romans etc...[/B]

I was talking about America


But in most religions don't they teach peace as the MOST important part[/B]

I disagree. The Old Testment of the Bible has sent me to many bible studies...as there are still so many questions I have about all that. But Jesus teaches peace...and so so many other religions.

I didn't say I agreed with that group I was just throwimg it out there. I also can not see how someone could muster the power to have so many die for their way of thinking. It just like the guy out in CA that had the men cut of there stuff and catch a rid on the rock. Maybe they knew something we didn't/don't :eek: [/B] You gotta stand for something or you will fall for anything. I think people just want to feel accepted by some group of society. They want to find a place where they are under the impression they are loved and "fit in". People like Jim Jones and David Koresh.....they learn early how to seek these people out. It's all psychological.

Obviously I HAVE NOT figured out the quote thing to discern your talk from mine. I will work on that. :)

Just an observation I found interesting. The other day I took my nephew to the park. There were so many wonderful things to take in...but I think what I noticed the most was a group of three to four year olds. They were playing with a ball. Some of those children would take the ball and play with it. Some would use force to have their turn after waiting a good while (my nephew :) ) and some would go find something else to play with or go to the slide or swings.....and some would just ruin their day and sit in the sand and cry. So funny how our coping mechanism start so early on.

Originally posted by Core
Well I have to agree with you. I mean sense the beginning of time people had some sense of trade. Whether it was cows and sheep to as you put it "the almighty dollar". I don't necessarily know if that's bad. Is it sad that the people with the most wins?

I do remember a time when neighbors would help each other, it seems to be a dying deed. Example folks use to get together to help put up a barn etc... They allways new sooner or later everyone would lend a hand somehow.

I think that the dollar alone is not evil, it's a sense of trade, but the importance men put on it in their own hearts is what we are dealing with in society today. And that's a human issue, not nessarily the "dollar" or any sense of trade for that matter. Someone is always going to get screwed...that's why it is important to decide how you are going to deal with it.

you are correct.



The movie star will get the better care. Plain and simple. Is that right? No it's not. But do you think that Joe has the same opportunity in America to become a movie star??

Sometimes, lets say Joe is perfectly healthy, then one day falls and breaks his back{ends up in a wheel chair} more then likely Joe is pushed to the back of the line. I'm not saying that every disabled person is crapped on, but the majority are. So the answer can go either way. Lets also not forget the, it's who ya know factor.

I guess I've worked with so many unprivledged people in the last seven years that really what to be angry about society but to tell you the truth the majority of them didn't change a lot from one session to the other because they didn't take the initiative. It's sad but we all have the same power within ourselves to get what we need. I do believe that life is survival of the fittest.

{1} There will allways be those that are so hard headed they wouldn't know how to use a billion dollars if you handed it to them.

{2} Does everyone really have the same power within?

{3} I do agree that life is the survival of the fittest, but will that animal instinct ever change. It has allready, to some degree, but I still feel we have along way to go. We have started helping the unfortunate some, but over all they still get slapped in the face.


I don't know if UT Southwestern Medical Center has done as much for society as Bill Gates though. Are you using Windows right now?

Bill was just one example lets go with other famous folks, M.J., O.J. Elvis, Clint E. base ball players, football players, etc... Does someone playing football making 10,000,000 a year do more then a doctor? Now we meet a cop she throws herself on the line, even takes a bullet. But M.J. came out of his house so who gets the coverage???



I'm sorry to hear about your medical experiences I really am.

I'm not looking for sympathy, I'm just saying it's a dog eat dog world{and some of us are wearing milkbone underwear :eek: :D }

But what steps are you taking in order to have the money if an emergency arises? Savings, investments? My husband and I put $80 a month in a contigency plan just for emergencies. I know it doesn't sound like a lot, but we have found a bank that adds interest to what we put in and already have $3,000 just in case.

I do agree everyone should have a back up plan, but what happens when that plan fails? There are folks out there that used all there savings, retirement, etc... now they're just stuck at the bottom with no hope in sight.





I would venture to say fear and ignorance. Fear that someone might convince them that their religion doesn't hold water. I feel that sometimes people that fight with their spirituality the most, are the ones trying to convert others as fast as they can, and do not tolerate others very well.

I also agree with this, in times of yesteryear religion was used for power{probably still is by some}, but in todays world I agree with you.

But that's individual. Not necessarily "society". I have counseled SO many people that the crack pipe is more important than their children, or their boyfriend is more important than the kids, or their religion has made it impossible for them to care for their homosexual kids.....I could go on. It's not just money mad dog. It's values, priorities. And yes....some people's priorities are money. You can think that sad because you priorities are elsewhere. But what are YOU going to do about it? How are you going to deal?

{1}I was just making a point that I noticed, values seem to be dropping, whether it's for a crack pipe or money it still is happening.

{2} I have changed my life, which works for me, but what is the world going to be like for my kids or my grand kids?




Yeah that is sad. But people have always judged others. It's human nature. Again, I blame this on fear and ignorance. Fear of not confronting the fact that EVERYONE IN THE WORLD is hypocritical at one point or another. There are NO perfect people....regardless if they attend church daily.

agreed




Fear and ignorance. I AM SOOOOOO SORRY that there are some Christians out there doing that to people and scaring them away from something that might be wonderful for them. About a month ago I went to sixth street in Austin. I had left a bar and there was a man my age on the corner with his Bible in the air. He was yelling at the people and telling them to repent or they were going to fry in hell. I asked him to speak with me for awhile, and to start lower his Bible to my eyes instead of over my head. He continued to yell Bible versus at me. He was scared to death of me. I think he thought I was Satan (IGNORANCE) I told him that Jesus would not and DID not preach this way. I told him that I didn't understand his purpose on the street. Was he trying to save people? Didn't feel that way to me. He never stopped to talk to me. THIS my friend breaks my heart. It's people like that that give Christianity a bad name and I really feel sorry for him. I have a sneaking suspiscion when he gets to Heaven...Jesus will say "WHAT THE HELL WERE YOU THINKING?"

I relize that not everyone can be judged by the one. Lets take the above guy, maybe he isn't just a crazy, but really feels he is doing the right thing. What would Jesus say if the person really felt what they were doing is/was right?

. But Jesus teaches peace...and so so many other religions.

This is my point, peace. If religion is suppose to be peacefull then why have there been so many religious conflicts?

You gotta stand for something or you will fall for anything. I think people just want to feel accepted by some group of society. They want to find a place where they are under the impression they are loved and "fit in". People like Jim Jones and David Koresh.....they learn early how to seek these people out. It's all psychological. ]

I do agree people do try to fit in and sometimes they will do whatever and even learn to feel the lie is true.

Originally posted by Core
]Just an observation I found interesting. The other day I took my nephew to the park. There were so many wonderful things to take in...but I think what I noticed the most was a group of three to four year olds. They were playing with a ball. Some of those children would take the ball and play with it. Some would use force to have their turn after waiting a good while (my nephew :) ) and some would go find something else to play with or go to the slide or swings.....and some would just ruin their day and sit in the sand and cry. So funny how our coping mechanism start so early on. [/B]

I agree how the coping mechanisms start so early on, As society grows we need to teach the young how to see anothers point of view.

Mad Dog,

There are actually two ways to look at "the answer" from an objective standpoint.

1) Nothing matters

2) Everything matters

Either way you go you are still left on your own to decide what matters TO YOU.

Zen Bhuddism teaches this principle more coherently than anything I have read so far but the truth is the truth. If there was some inherent point to life how could we still be debating it after two hundred thousand years of Humanity.

We don't debate objective truths like Gravity, Death, the need for water. That's the kind of thing that has an objective "answer".

All this stuff we can talk about for hundreds of thousands of years is subjective. Each person has their own "answer" for the debate-ables.

:)

Originally posted by mad dog

[QUOTE]
{2} Does everyone really have the same power within?

Within? I choose to believe so. But on to your number three....what shows to be relevant is survival of the fittest.

We do have a long way to go, but I don't think it's going to happen. I don't think it's ever going to be a place on Earth where the "unfortunate" as you call it are equal to the "fortunate" if you will.


Bill was just one example lets go with other famous folks, M.J., O.J. Elvis, Clint E. base ball players, football players, etc... Does someone playing football making 10,000,000 a year do more then a doctor? Now we meet a cop she throws herself on the line, even takes a bullet. But M.J. came out of his house so who gets the coverage???[/B]
Depends on the news that night actually. Sometimes it's about local killings, sometimes it's about MJ. Yanno, MJ had a real crappy abusive childhood and they lived in poverty before Motown and Barry Gordie....so I mean, and Elvis too. He was poor and I would venture to say pretty uneducated. Football players...hummmm I have a bone to pick there. But all these people...at least the ones you mentioned, they working VERY hard and faced all kinds of fears and things we all go through to get the money they have. NOT ALLLLL PEOPLE...but just the ones you mentioned.


I'm not looking for sympathy, I'm just saying it's a dog eat dog world{and some of us are wearing milkbone underwear :eek: :D }
[/B]
I agree. Some people are more comfortable being victims of circumstance. Those are the people that grate me the most, and the reason I got out of substance abuse counseling. Some people don't want help. Be careful throwing their misery onto the successfully rich. UNLESS, you want to throw ANYTHING at Susan Surananananadon and her DIPSHIT husband Tim Robbins! Can't STAND THOSE PEOPLE!!!!

[
I do agree everyone should have a back up plan, but what happens when that plan fails? There are folks out there that used all there savings, retirement, etc... now they're just stuck at the bottom with no hope in sight.
[/B]

But WHY should I be responsible for their plan failing...or anyone for that matter?? People learn best by consequence don't you think?


{2} I have changed my life, which works for me, but what is the world going to be like for my kids or my grand kids?
[/B]

Whatever you make it to be for them until they are responsible enough to make it for themselves.


I relize that not everyone can be judged by the one. Lets take the above guy, maybe he isn't just a crazy, but really feels he is doing the right thing. What would Jesus say if the person really felt what they were doing is/was right?
[/B]

All I can refer to is the way Jesus teaches in the Bible. And NEVER did He say go out young followers and yell and scream and judge and condemn people for not following me. He said, turn the other cheek and he who casts the first stone, and forgive them for they know not what they do. Now, John the Baptist...WOW, he had some techniques....and Jesus allowed him to Baptize Him without a lecture so maybe your right.


This is my point, peace. If religion is suppose to be peacefull then why have there been so many religious conflicts? [/B]
Because, religion is what makes a person. I know first and foremost I try to put God in the middle of who I am. If I should have to go to war for Jesus Christ......sign me up. Jesus is the ONLY thing (other than my family) that I would give my life for. That's just the way it is for some people. Some people go to war for their country...which I completely respect. I just don't have the courage. But for Jesus.....not a second thought about it.

Originally posted by Core
We do have a long way to go, but I don't think it's going to happen. I don't think it's ever going to be a place on Earth where the "unfortunate" as you call it are equal to the "fortunate" if you will.

All I'm saying is the unfortunate diserve respect which they do not get in todays society. When I say unfortunate I'm not talking about drug addicts etc... I'm talking about the elderly, disabled, etc...


Depends on the news that night actually. Sometimes it's about local killings, sometimes it's about MJ.

I would bet if Sallybobjoe killed so and so in little town U.S., and M.J. unzipped in pants on the same day the media would be all over the M.J. story.

Yanno, MJ had a real crappy abusive childhood and they lived in poverty before Motown and Barry Gordie....

SO WHAT, the rest of his brothers and sisters had the same parents, they seem somewhat normal.

so I mean, and Elvis too. He was poor and I would venture to say pretty uneducated.

But did we know anything about Elvis before he hit the big screen, now he makes more money dead then he did while he was alive.

Football players...hummmm I have a bone to pick there. But all these people...at least the ones you mentioned, they working VERY hard and faced all kinds of fears and things we all go through to get the money they have. NOT ALLLLL PEOPLE...but just the ones you mentioned.

Worked hard, hmmmmm did they really or did they just happen to be in the right place at the right time?


I agree. Some people are more comfortable being victims of circumstance. Those are the people that grate me the most, and the reason I got out of substance abuse counseling.

Once again I'm not talking about the people that bring crap onto themselfs. When I think about the unfortunate I go take a look at the WWII vet that lived a good hard working life just to be thrown into a home and forgoten about. I look at the kid in a wheel chair that everyone ignores, and grown ups tell there children to stay away from.

Some people don't want help.

Your right some people are proud others are just plain stupid, this still doesn't make things right to show disrespect.

Be careful throwing their misery onto the successfully rich.

What about the vet that gives everything just to have his SSI taken away just because no one gives a damn. What about the elderly that get sh** on every year, etc...



But WHY should I be responsible for their plan failing...or anyone for that matter?? People learn best by consequence don't you think?

Most of us that work ARE FORCED to pay SSI, so IF the time comes we can use it. Now with the new times all of a sudden the money's not there. If the government can't come up with a plan that works how can the individual? Have you been in the situation where you have had to stay in the hospital, etc.... and use all the money you had saved? Once the medical bills start rolling in I don't care how much you have put away it doesn't last long. Now try to keep insurance etc... with no job.

All I can refer to is the way Jesus teaches in the Bible. And NEVER did He say go out young followers and yell and scream and judge and condemn people for not following me. He said, turn the other cheek and he who casts the first stone, and forgive them for they know not what they do. Now, John the Baptist...WOW, he had some techniques....and Jesus allowed him to Baptize Him without a lecture so maybe your right.

Well not to be a jerk, but I never met Jesus so I'm not sure what he said. :)


Because, religion is what makes a person. I know first and foremost I try to put God in the middle of who I am. If I should have to go to war for Jesus Christ......sign me up. Jesus is the ONLY thing (other than my family) that I would give my life for. That's just the way it is for some people. Some people go to war for their country...which I completely respect. I just don't have the courage. But for Jesus.....not a second thought about it.

So you would go to war for someone, something that may not have even existed, but you wouldn't fight for a country, neighbor, that you can touch, feel, hear, and see. Would Jesus except this way? or would he want you to fight for your way of life?

Sorry if those last questions sounded nasty, but how can a person fight for something that "may not" be real? Then turn around and not fight for something that is real? I can BELIEVE that little green men fly around my house at night and keep me safe, so sure I'ld fight to help them. I also KNOW that I live in one of the best countries, and that my neighbor is a good person so I will fight for our rights as Americans.

Well I thought about that last night, and I think I would go to war if need be. Just to protect my rights to believe in little green men so to speak. I do NOT think you are being nasty. I welcome it. There is something very invigorating about sharing different ideas. I understand your need to believe in something you can see and touch. But it seems the same respect is not there for me. I don't think I will go in and answer the rest of what you said only in that you are right that we don't all get equal treatment. Guess it's human nature. I don't want to beat a dead horse.

Thanks Core for your time. I truley did not mean to put down your beliefs or any thoughts of a god/gods, religion, I believe in "to each his/her own". I also think we are probably on the same note, when I posted I was more or less just venting. It just makes me mad when I see some unfortunate getting crapped on while society is more worried about Anna Nichols{sp} breast size.

I hear ya maddog, and again, I am not offended in the least. Good talking with you!

Originally posted by mad dog
I was wondering something most religions say how great things will be when one dies as long as they except "this or that". So my question is once you learn your religion why not just die{however} and go be happy?

To get back (W-a-a-a-a-y back) to your original thought in this thread, I can't speak for all religions, but Christianity seems to be a different kettle of fish from all the comments I've read herein.

Christians don't fear death, but neither are they anxious to experience it (a la those asteroid dudes). To us, giving our life to Christ is only the beginning; from there, God has a plan to use my life and a distinct purpose in mind for me.

While I yet live, my primary purpose is to glorify Him (God). I do that by coming to know Him, communicating with Him, and by obeying Him.

Just my thoughts.

dave

Thanks Dave, that's a nice thought.