Im not knocking anyones belief, but tell me this. Who created the hypothetical bang that started the big bang? Who created the elements that caused the bang to happen? Why do we argue so heatedly about a subject that is likey beyond human comprehension. Notice I said comprehension, not speculation. Only a Supreme Being(i.e. GOD) could have caused this. And if their is a God, does not evolutionist theories become not so sound?

Only a Supreme Being(i.e. GOD) could have caused this. And if their is a God, does not evolutionist theories become not so sound?

huh? what do you mean by this.....no I don't think evolutionist theories are unsound......science is everywhere man

Originally posted by Jwjames111
Notice I said comprehension, not speculation. Only a Supreme Being(i.e. GOD) could have caused this.

Just because we can't comprehend something doesn't mean it's the work of God.

once again Vile pagan, your name is justified

i just dont see it

Originally posted by Jwjames111
Who created the hypothetical bang that started the big bang? Who created the elements that caused the bang to happen? ... Only a Supreme Being(i.e. GOD) could have caused this.

Who created the God that caused the big bang?

and that is a very human thought process. Can we not accept that maybe God has NO beginning and no end? But then again, i guess that may be hard if you dont believe in the Bible. We as humans cannot comprehend the existence of a being that has no beginning, because everything in our world had a beginning, including the universe. God, on the other hand, had none.

WOW, I bet GOD's parents would be mad if they heard you say that???

:D funny. Oh man that was rich!

Evolutionary Theory or any other scientific discipline will still provide applications even if God exists. Stuffs like antibiotics, steam engines, transistors, tires, what have you, were all applications which had some scientific fundation. If scientists all stop trying to explain things through experiments and mathematics, and just lazily say oh God created everything, then nothing gets invented. ;)

thats true. Theory is important. I just don't believe GOD should be left out of those equations. God and Science can exist together. Just balance it out and you will actually see that they can compliment each other quite nicely.

Originally posted by Jwjames111
once again Vile pagan, your name is justified

You say the the ideas of god and science are very compatible and that's true as long as you think science is just a bunch of theories and ideas that you have to believe in. Religion is about explaining the world through faith and belief in the unbelieveable. Science is about explaining the world through experimentation and verifying the results of those experiments.

If I were to try and convince you that I had been abducted by aliens, you would want me to produce extraordinary evidence to back up my rather extraordinary claim, and rightfully so, yet when people talk about god they do so without offering one shred of evidence to support their belief, and act appalled that someone should ask for proof. They say "you must have faith". Why?

It is simply that there is no evidence that points to the existence of god and everyone knows that. The church doesn't have any proof or they would have produced it long ago, so they hide behind fanciful tales and arcane rituals, and threaten people with grotesque supernatural punishments for questioning their dogma, all to perpetuate their own existence. It's obscene and perverse, and man will forever be unable to reach his rightful destiny until he throws off this stifling yoke of superstition.

I hope you have something more intelligent to say other than you don't like my name.

Well said Vilepagan...except:

"God" does exist. "It" is not in the sky with a white beard and winged babies all around. Those are just artful imagery. The Universe wants, however. We are here because... something... wanted to have internet and talk and live and die.

Science is not opposed to "God" nor vice versa. True Religion is high science.

(Now, the organized "religions" we have on our Earth are EXTREMELY sleazy)

Vile, I was just playin about your name dude. Anyway, what proof is there that everything happened without a God to start it. Can ye not look upon all there is and say it couldn't have happened by sheer chance. I would buy evolution if but for this one point. Over the thosands of years man has been in existence, have we yet changed? Since recorded history have we evolved any? Are there different species of human walking around. Are there other Homo sapiens sub species on the Earth? One could make a stronge argument for Patrick Ewing though(lol). But really, i can't see it, not b/c i dont want to see it, but b/c it isnt there.

What proof is there that everything happened with a god to start it?

As for evolution, larger species do not change rapidly in a mere span of 6000 years, as our generations are quite long. If you look at a much larger time frame, you would see changes. Look at the fossils. Alternatively, observe the evolution of species that have shorter generations, like certain species of moth which have evolved recently to have a different color that matches a new kind of tree introduced in their environment. Or look at bacteria evolving to become antibiotic-resistant.

BorHunter, no way you're 15!

Originally posted by Jwjames111
BorHunter, no way you're 15!
I assure you that I am.

you have been on since as far as i can remember, since..since...tentmaker

Originally posted by Jwjames111
you have been on since as far as i can remember, since..since...tentmaker
Proud member since 11/14/02.

And don't mention Tentmaker again. His name is blasphemy to this site. Amusingly, it was my gaining mod status that scared him away. :D

. I would buy evolution if but for this one point. Over the thosands of years man has been in existence, have we yet changed? Since recorded history have we evolved any? Are there different species of human walking around. Are there other Homo sapiens sub species on the Earth?

of course we have evolved.....our intelligence is always changingand science is always coming up with new stuff, even in my family on the woman side each generation is getting progressively taller.......if you look at a really old house built say 150 to two hundred years ago why are the doorframes so much shorter? You also have to remember that evolution is a result of georaphy and environment.......look at the Masai in Africa....a tall thin stature helps to dissipate heat better and dark skin tone helps with the sun.....go to the Arctic and you will see the Innu people have a much shorter stockier stature and thicker fat layer to help retain heat in harsh cold environment....evolution is all around you and it makes such perfect sense.......and as for major merked differences you also have to remember that a few thousand years of our existance is only a drop in the bucket if you look at the bigger picture............christianity is such a new fangled ideal

also look at life span (certain cultures) has increased you were lucky if you lived to forty a few hundred years ago.....now isn't that progress?

Here's a good place to start reading.....or PBS did a great film of it too.....

Journey of Man (http://www.kokogiak.com/amazon/detpage.asp?sb=s&asin=069111532X&field-keywords=Journey+of+Man&schMod=books&type=)

Dr Spencer Wells (http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/nov/27inter.htm)

Humans have stopped evolving.

For evolution to happen some type of Human would have to die off before it could reproduce. Modern medicine keeps everyone alive long enough to reproduce.

I don't think that's true. Evolution is much more subtle then a type of human dying off.

Everytime a child is born, evolution moves happens.

why couln't we be created different? The masai didn't used to be short, they have always been tall. Our life spans have increased because of medicine and technology, not b/c we have evolved. your female family members have gotten taller because of genetics, not because they are evolving. Evolution means another species is forming or the species is improving in some way. Has our brain power increased all that much. If the people of past generations had their hands on the technology we have now, would it be a different story?

why couln't we be created different? The masai didn't used to be short, they have always been tall. Our life spans have increased because of medicine and technology, not b/c we have evolved. your female family members have gotten taller because of genetics, not because they are evolving. Evolution means another species is forming or the species is improving in some way. Has our brain power increased all that much. If the people of past generations had their hands on the technology we have now, would it be a different story?

no buddy we BECAME different........do you think when the first migrants into north America got here they look like Natives do now?

Our life spans have increased because of medicine and technology, not b/c we have evolved.

and from which mountain top was this medicine and technology graced upon us???

Has our brain power increased all that much.

no we always had the power, only we keep coming up with stuff...

to truly understand evolution you have to look at isolated populations. whick is going to get harder the more globalized we become and the more specialized environments are destryed

i dont mean to let this post die but for me evolution doesn't make since. And that is just my opinion. Whatever u believe is whatever u believe...

Originally posted by Ed Blank
Humans have stopped evolving.

For evolution to happen some type of Human would have to die off before it could reproduce. Modern medicine keeps everyone alive long enough to reproduce.

Your confusing evolution with natural selection. Natural selection is one mechanism involved in the evolutionary process, but not the only one. In a simple model of evolution one organism suffers a random mutation which produces a trait enabling that organism to survive better than it's fellow offspring of the same species. Since this new offspring survives better it goes on to breed more offspring that in turn survive better and so on. The actual evolution involves more than just the selection of this organism.

Yes, Evolution is all very intricate...

You guys are missing my point. There is no Natural Selection at work with modern humans because we remove all the threats that would "select" us. Modern medicine is the opposite of Natural Selection.

No matter how weak a human specimen is, it tends to live. The stupid people are having the most babies.

Random mutations! Go chromosome, it's your birthday, you can do it! OH YEAH!!! HE MERGED!! WHOOOOO!!! And the X chomosome has split and swapped a piece with the other X chromosome, we have a mutation ladies and gentlemen! WE HAVE A MUTATION! That's score 1 for continuing-evolution, score 0 for evolution-has-ended!

Originally posted by Blibblob
Random mutations! Go chromosome, it's your birthday, you can do it! OH YEAH!!! HE MERGED!! WHOOOOO!!! And the X chomosome has split and swapped a piece with the other X chromosome, we have a mutation ladies and gentlemen! WE HAVE A MUTATION! That's score 1 for continuing-evolution, score 0 for evolution-has-ended!
Wha...?

The process of chromosomal mutation. You know when they have that little thing where half of one chomosome is switched with another. Yeah... anyways, pay more attention in biology instead of reading books borg!

Originally posted by Blibblob
The process of chromosomal mutation. You know when they have that little thing where half of one chomosome is switched with another. Yeah... anyways, pay more attention in biology instead of reading books borg!
Yeah, I knew that, it was just your...tone..."Go chromosome, it's your birthday, you can do it!"...and coming from you, it threw me off-guard a bit.

Originally posted by Ed Blank
Yes, Evolution is all very intricate...

You guys are missing my point. There is no Natural Selection at work with modern humans because we remove all the threats that would "select" us. Modern medicine is the opposite of Natural Selection.

No matter how weak a human specimen is, it tends to live. The stupid people are having the most babies.

Natural selection is still very much in operation with modern humans. We are constantly having to evolve to stay ahead of emerging viruses, and climate change will also be a source of evolutionary pressure in the furture. Natural selection doesn't neccessarily select only for those traits which give the mutated organism a chance to survive, sometimes they select for very minor improvements.

Even if the stupid people are having more babies, stupid people still don't survive as long as smart people, because they die more frequently from accidents, and from the consequences of making poorer decisions.

The stupid people get killed while running into battle. The smart people get assasinated. :D

The viruses might put some environmental pressure on us one day but it ain't happening yet. That still won't make better humans of us. The ones left will still have things like bad eyes, diabetes, and obesity.

Go to your local Wal Mart and see if anybody in there is highly evolved.

What the fuck? The Black Plague killed one third of the population of Europe. Largely, the ones who survived were either smarter than the others, or they were immune to it. Evolution occurs of a period of thousands upon thousands of years. Not a bloody day. That STILL doesn't call into the existance of chromosomal mutation, which you STILL haven't "refuted".

Chromosomal mutation means nothing without natural selection. The mutations have to build up. It's not like there was a giraffe whith a one foot neck that had a baby who grew up to have a ten foot neck.

Once the giraffes with the 18 inch necks took over (i.e. the twelve-inch-neckers died out) then a mutant came along with a 24 inch neck and so on. It takes millinos of years of the less evolved DIEING OUT to evolve.

Refute that.

Wrong. The new mutated gene continues on with the person, and is transfered to the children. Thus, that line has the new mutation. The largest part of evolution is not natural selection, it is breeding. Breeding cross ethnicity, breeding within ethnicity. Many genes are also recessive, most of the bad ones are, they weed themselves out. The person doesn't have to die before propagating for the bad trait to be weeded out. Nor does it mean that since stupid people survive that evolution doesn't occur.

You're wrong, I win. :)