Okay, assuming anyone actually feels like taking a swipe at my challenge, I will explain myself a little.
I have some serious questions about Islam and how people can follow something that has more holes in it than a sieve. I am not trying to be petulant, but, frankly, I just don't get it. Any way, if someone is feeling up to the challenge, I would like them to try to answer my questions. You MUST use proof, not your opinion. I will start with just one question.

1.)Islam teaches that Muslims must adhere to a belief in four books as being the word of God, and therefore, without error, discrepancy, or contradiction. Those books are: the Torah( Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy), Zabur ( the psalms), Injil ( the gospel), and Koran. Islam claims, "This is indeed a Qur'an most honourable, a Book well guarded... A Revalation from the Lord of the Worlds." (Koran 56:77-80), "This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by anyone other than God." (10:37). Islam also claims the Koran is without contradiction: " Do they not ponder on the Qur'an? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy." (Sura 4:82)

However, Islam teaches that the Genesis account shouldn't be taken literally, as it contains discrepancies. Genesis 1:1 to 2:2 says God created the universe in six days and rested on the seventh day. Surah 41:9, 10, 12 says creation took eight days, and Surah 10:3 states creation took six days.
Koran 21:30 say the universe was produced by a " big bang", by a kind of gas(Koran 41:11). The Koran states God created living thing from water( Koran 21:30; 24:45) and that Creator didn't rest: "We created the heavens and the earth and all between them in six days, nor did any sense of weariness touch us."(Koran 50:38)

I have found more contradictions is these "scriptures" than I care to bring forward now, but my first question is this: How all scripture be God breathed and contain contradictions without casting doubt on God, for if he is God, and fault is found in him then he ceases to be God, because God MUST be perfect and without flaw. The Islamic scriptures continually contradict each other, but can God contradict himself and still be God? How can my excerpts from the Islamic scriptures be reconciled without damaging the truth?

All right, there is your first challenge. If Islam cannot stand the test of being questioned it is not worth giving allegiance to it. I hope someone will take a shot at this.

Congratulations. You just debunked the fundamentalist Big Three (Christianity, Judaism, Islam), which is something a five-year-old could do. Moderate Big Three, however, is much harder.

I am not sure I understand you, Borg (I, by the way, am 16)

Debunking fundamentalist sects of any religion is so simple, a five-year-old could do it. (I was not insinuating that you are five.) That's what you did: If you take the Qu'ran literally, yes, it is hypocritical and contradictory. So is Christianity, if you take the Bible literally.

My purpose was not to "debunk" anything. I asked a question, for which, I would like an answer. Although I do think it signifigant that no-one has come forward with anything relating to an answer.

My purpose was not to "debunk" anything. I asked a question, for which, I would like an answer. Although I do think it signifigant that no-one has come forward with anything relating to an answer.
I don't know how signifigant it is, personally I don't find this very intriguing or interesting......if this is what they want to belive, fine let them......who cares really.........

Originally posted by Chotch87
Although I do think it signifigant that no-one has come forward with anything relating to an answer.

Given that there's only one admitted Muslim on the forums and he only posts in his own thread, I don't think it's significant at all. Post the same thread on a Muslim forum - then it might be significant if no one responds.

Anti-Islamic Claim: 4.Six or eight days of creation? Sura 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 clearly state that God created "the heavens and the earth" in six days. But in 41:9-12 the detailed description of the creation procedure adds up to eight days.

My Response: Let us look at Ayah (verse) 7:54 "Your Guardian-Lord Is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, then He established Himself on the Throne (of authority): He draweth the night as a veil O'er the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession: He created the sun, the moon, and the stars, (all) governed by laws under His command. Is it not His to create and to govern? Blessed be Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds !"

Let us look at Ayah (verse) 10:3 "Verily your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, then He established Himself on the Throne (of authority), regulating and governing all things. No intercessor (can plead with Him) except after His leave (Hath been obtained). This is Allah your Lord; Him therefore Serve ye: will ye not recieve admonition?"

Let us look at Ayah (verse) 11:7 "He (Allah) it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six days and His Throne was over the waters that He mighty try you, which of you is best in conduct. but if thou wert to say to them, 'ye shall indeed be raised up after death,' the unbelievers would be sure to say, 'this is nothing but obvious sorcery!'"

Let us look at Ayah (verse) 25:59 "He Who created the heavens and the earth and all that is between, in six days, and is firmly established on the Throne (of authority): Allah, Most Gracious: Ask thou, then, about Him of any acquainted (with such things)."

Let us look at Ayah (verse) 32:4 "It is Allah Who has Created the heavens and the earth, and all between them, in six days, then He established Himself on the Throne (of authority); ye have none, besides Him, to protect or intercede (for you): Will ye not then recieve admonition?"

Let us look at Ayat (verses) 41:9-12 "(verse 9) Say: Is it that ye Deny Him (Allah) Who created the earth in two days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the worlds. (verse 10) He set on the (earth) mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four days, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (sustenance). (verse 11) Moreover, He Comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: 'Come ye together, Willingly or unwillingly.' They said: 'We do come (together), in willing obedience.' (verse 12) So He completed them as seven firmaments in two days and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We (Allah) adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) The Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge."

There is no contradiction in the Noble Verses above.

In the above Holy Verses (7:54, 10:3, 11:7, 32:4, and 25:59) we see that Allah Almighty clearly states that He created the universe in six days. Holy Verses (41:9-12) describe the primal creation of our physical earth and the physical heavens around us. If we count the two days mentioned in (41:9), the four days, mentioned in (41:10), and the two days mentioned in (41:12), we get a total of eight days. However, the four days in (41:10) include the two days in (41:9), because the processes described in (41:9-10) form one series. In the one case it is the creation of the formless matter of the earth; and in the other case it is the gradual evolution of the form of the earth, its mountains and seas, and its animal and vegetable life, with the "nourishment in due proportion, (41:10)" proper to each.

To further understand the complexity of the creation of the earth, let us look at Ayat (verses) 15:19-20 "And the earth We (Allah) have spread out (Like a carpet); set thereon mountains firm and immovable; and produced therein all kinds of things in due balance. And We (Allah) have provided therein means of subsistence- for you and for those for whose sustenance ye are not responsible." Majesty, order, beauty, and harmony are shown in all Allah's Creation, but especially in the heavens. Coming nearer to man, Allah's care for man and His goodness are shown (besides His other qualities) in His creation of the earth. In highly poetical language, the earth is described as spread out like a carpet, on which the eternal hills act as weights to keep it steady.

Let us also look at Ayah (verse) 13:3 "And it is He (Allah) Who spread out the earth, and set thereon mountains, standing firm, and (flowing) rivers: and fruit of every kind He (Allah) made in pairs, two and two: He draweth the night as a veil O'er the day. Behold, verily in these things are Signs for those who consider!"

Let us also look at Ayah (verse) 16:15 "And He (Allah) has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and rivers and roads; that ye may guide yourselves,"

In Holy Verses (15:19-20, 13:3, and 16:15) we see that Allah Almighty took special care in planet earth to provide all the necessary means for us to be able to survive. This shows that the four days in (41:10) include the two days in (41:9), because the processes described in (41:9-10) form one series.

Note: (41:9) talks about the creation of earth. (41:10, 13:3, 15:19-20, 13:3, and 16:15) talk about the gradual improvment and gifts from Allah Almighty of earth for us. The creation of earth without its complexity took two days, and the wonderful creations and gifts that Allah Almighty provided for us on earth took another two days.

note: taken from a site, not my words

Six or Eight Days of Creation

Article:

Mr Katz, in one of his articles has objected that in most of the places the Qur'an states that God created the heavens and the earth in six days (for example: 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59) while in 41: 9 - 12, a little more detail of the number of days involved in this creation is given. In this verse, God has separately mentioned the number of days it took to create the earth and the number it took to create the heavens. Mr. Katz says that if we add up these numbers, they sum up to eight, rather than six, which obviously is a contradiction in the statements of the Qur'an.

In the article that follows, I shall try to briefly present my point of view about the stated apparent contradiction in the Qur'an.

Let us begin by taking a look at the translation of verses 41: 9 - 12. The Qur'an says:

Say: do you indeed disbelieve in Him who created the earth in two days? and do you make other gods His equals? The Lord of the Universe is He. He set upon the earth mountains, towering high above it. He blessed it and provided it with sustenance for all those in need alike, in four days. Then, turning to the sky, which was but a cloud of vapour, He said to it and to the earth: "Come forward both, willingly or perforce". "We will come willingly", they answered. In two days, He formed the sky into seven heavens.

A quick look at the verse with particular reference to the number of days involved in the creation, shows that:

The creation of the earth took two (2) days;
the setting up of mountains, seas etc., and the provision of sustenance for living things on the earth took four (4) days; and
the making of the skies took two (2) days.
The accumulated number of days involved in the total process of creation seems to be eight (8), as Mr. Katz has also stated. Obviously, there would have been no contradiction, if the matter had ended here. But it did not. There are a number of instances in the Qur'an where it clearly states that Allah created the heavens and the earth in six days. This is where the problem begins!

Now, obviously, in view of this apparent contradiction we are faced with a very simple question: Was the author of the Qur'an not even a person of average (even far below average) intelligence? For if the Qur'an contains errors, such as "six equals eight" (6 = 8), it would be very difficult to assume that he (or He) possesses an intelligence above a two year old child (?). Moreover, we are faced with another serious question: Why didn't the rejecters of the Prophet (pbuh) object to such obvious errors in the book that was proving to be "the beginning of the end" for them. Were they really as ignorant as that?

Questions such as these force us to have a second and a closer look at the related verses of the Qur'an. For if the Qur'an really contains such fundamental errors (or even just AN Error), it cannot and MUST NOT be ascribed to the All-Knowing, All-Wise Creator and Lord of the universe.

We are thus forced to take a second, closer, look at verses 41: 9 - 12. To understand these verses more accurately, let us take a look only at the related portions of these verses. The Qur'an says:

... do you indeed disbelieve in Him who created the earth in two days? ... And He set upon the earth mountains, towering high above it. He blessed it and provided it with sustenance for all those in need, alike, in four days. Then, ... In two days, He formed the sky into seven heavens.

I really do not know if any questions arise in the minds of my readers, after looking at these verses again. But as soon as I looked at these verses with the knowledge that the same book which is giving us the above information, has also told us that the total time of creation is six days, I realized that these verses are not giving the number of days involved in three creations, but only two. It is not the earth, the mountains (etc.) and the skies that are under consideration, but only the earth and the skies. (The Reader is requested to have a look at these verses again, and see it for himself/herself). The portion: "And He set upon the earth mountains, towering high above it. He blessed it and provided it with sustenance for all those in need, alike, in four days", mentions only a continuation and finalisation of the process of the creation of the earth.

The realization of this fact solved the problem completely. The verses, as I saw them now, were quite clear. The Qur'an in these verses was actually saying that the basic structure of the earth was created in two (2) days. Later on, mountains, seas and other paraphernalia required for the sustenance of living organisms on this basic structure of the earth were designed and created. And all this work (including the creation of the earth and the designing and provision of the paraphernalia) was completed in a total of four (4) days. After this, the skies were modeled and seven heavens were created in two (2) days. Thus the total time involved in the creation of the earth and the heavens totalled to six (6) days -- not eight (8) days. I do acknowledge that if the Qur'an had not mentioned at other places that the creation of the heavens and the earth involved six (6) days, the total process could have been taken to add upto eight (8) days. But keeping in mind that the Qur'an has mentioned elsewhere that the total process involved six (6) days, there is nothing wrong, linguistically, to say that the total period involved in designing and creating the earth (because the mountains etc. are a part of that earth) took four (4) days. While that of the skies involved two (2) days. Thus the total number of days in the designing and creation of the earth and the skies involved six (6) days.

The verses now seemed quite clear in their message. I thanked my Lord, and to show my gratitude fell down in prostration.

© Copyright December 1998. All Rights Reserved with the Author

note: not my words

* Six or eight days of creation? Sura 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 clearly state that God created "the heavens and the earth" in six days. But in 41:9-12 the detailed description of the creation procedure adds up to eight days.

They were six. The verses of 41:9-12 speak of overlapping actions in spans of four and two days each. The adverbs are the keys to understanding this. The verses of 11 and 12 use the adverbs "thummah" and "fa" which imply consecutiveness of action. Neither of these two, however, are used in verse 10 (the only one which mentions four days) which instead uses the adverb "wa" implying parallel, or "overlapping" actions. In other words, the grammar tells us that the four days mentioned in 10 are a continuation of the two mentioned in verse 9. The four days of "measuring the earth's sustenance" refers to the two days of the creation of the earth in addition to the two days of the "spreading out of the earth's features" (see next question).


For example, the world renown track and fielder Carl Lewis might say "I am now 32 years old. I started elementary school when I was 6, then I spent 12 years studying for my high-school diploma and I spent 24 years training to be the world's best long-jumper. Then I settled down and have spent the last two years taking care of my family." Does this mean that he was 18 years old when he started training for the long jump? Did he continue till he was 42 years old? If we add 6 + 12 + 24 + 2 we get 44. How then can he be "32 years old" now?. To understand this we need to notice that he did not say that he started training when he was eighteen. He did not say "then" I trained for 24 years. We now realize that he started training at the same time he started elementary school, when he was 6. He went to school and trained for track and field at the same time. After he graduated from high-school he continued to train for 12 more years. They were "overlapping" actions.


Now, if someone wishes to claim that Carl Lewis' statement is contradictory since he says that he is 32 years old but "the detailed description of the breakdown of the years" works out to 44 years, and that this is a "contradiction," then that is their choice.

You wanna debunk Religion?

Explain to us how mud became men. Explain how the stars knew to form or why the Universe exploded into being in the first place. Those are the mysteries that make all of us retreat to some form of Religion (which includes Science and all systems of belief)

All the stuff in the Holy books is poetry and mythology. There is more truth in the tale of Adam and Eve than there is in any textbook. These truths are not as obvious as a detailed account of photosythesesis. To find the truth of a poem or a myth you must understand life itself. You would have had to have been paying attention to the rain and the wind up 'til now instead of the DVD player.

When you are 16 you know everything already. This state reverses itself (if you're lucky) and you one day realize what you don't know (which will always be infinite).

The point of Religion: to encourage us to believe in the Will of the Universe. As unlikely as the Universe seems, it's here because it wants to be here. "It" is you, too.

The best thing that Will (I'm going to start calling God "Will") does for us is to hide very well so that we have to rely mostly on ourselves. Not matter how many books they write none will ever be able to explain it all. The more they explain the further they get away from "It".

How can you say that God is "hiding"? People have only to open their eyes and truly look. God says seek and you will find. Sin blinds our eyes and keeps the truth(God) hidden from us. Furthermore I did not claim to "know everything". Far from it. I would think that in asking a question, it would be rather obvious that I don't know everything, I don't even claim to. Wouldn't I look the fool if I tried to?

Explain to us how mud became men. Explain how the stars knew to form or why the Universe exploded into being in the first place. Those are the mysteries that make all of us retreat to some form of Religion
You are being quite blunt here, so I will be as well.

Mud did not become men.

The stars formed because of the laws of physics, gravity prevailing over the other forces in most formations.

The big bang is not fully understood yet, but there is progress.

Religion has answered so many of the hard questions that we have had, and quickly scurries from it's false prenomitions as they are uncovered through science, only to further bolster the answers it has created for which it is impossible to prove.

I think if you have serious questions about Islam, it would be best to go to a local Mosque and speak to a priest?(not sure the term for religious leader), and see what they have to say.

You will get more if you are looking for claritity, then if you are looking for conflict.

Originally posted by Pepper
priest?(not sure the term for religious leader)

imam

Mud became men. There is nothing on the entire Earth that is not made of Dirt and Water. Period. No one can explain how life started.

You are getting me confused if you think I am arguing Right Wing Creation Science. Just the opposite, a look at Evolution, Physcis, Quantum Physics, Biology et al convinces me that there is a Will at work. Complexity is always increasing, which is the opposite of the way entropy is supposed to work.

All I was saying to the young man who started this thread is this:

Don't approach life by hacking at it. If you really wanna understand Religion try to understand what a tree means when it bends to the will of the wind. Look at the Universe as if everything is true (which it is... you can glean the truth from a bold faced lie if you know how to listen).

Originally posted by Ed Blank
Look at the Universe as if everything is true (which it is... you can glean the truth from a bold faced lie if you know how to listen). [/B]

You are wrong, and that is all there is to it. People can say that smoking pot is good for your health but that doesn't make it true. Contrary to what a lot of people think, truth is NOT relative. I might say that my truth is not taking shower will cause people to like me, but does that make it true? I don't think so. In most cases truth is always true, for everyone( whether they accept it or not). I am not claiming to know all the truth, but if all truth is relative, why are people ready to bash my truth( that Christ is the risen lord and king) but I suddenly become a( let me see if I say this without forgetting anything) " extremist right-wing, narrow-minded, hypocritical, puritanical, intolerant, snobby moron.
I wonder who is being more intolerant, myself when I give an opinion someone doesn't like, or the peolpe who say I am intolerant. ;)

I didn't say truth is relative. I said the truth is in everything. If I say smoking pot is good for you, and you know how to listen you can walk away with the truth:

1) Why am I even taking time to promote pot smoking as healthy?

People don't do that with things that are actually healthy. You don't hear people taking time to say "clean water is healthy!", "green vegetables are healthy!", or "regular excresice is healthy!". Obviosly, for me to be trying to convince you that smoking weed is good, there must be some kind of debate raging in our society. For there to be a debate there has to be some doubt as to the healthfulness of herb smoking.

2) I must be a weed smoker if I am arguing for weed smoking.

Again, non-cigarette-smokers don't try to convince anyone that smoking is okay. People who don't believe in guns don't argue for guns.

3)I realize that you are not a weed smoker.

(I wouldn't try to convince you that weed was a good thing to smoke if I sold you weed three times a week.)

"Smoking pot is good for you" actually means "Although they say smoking pot is bad, I (a pot smoker myself) would invite you to smoke it and buy it from me, since you apparently are a non-pot-smoker"

Even though this is a completely silly example, think about the cops. They figure out what criminals are doing just based on the lies criminals tell them. The same with parents who have bad kids.

Whoo! Even though it has been proven countless times that smoking cannibis is not only not bad for you medically, it helps. And that it does no permanent mental damage if it is not used in outrageous excess. Only one death has resulted from smoking weed. And that guy smoked about 10 joints a day for about 20 years.

There is only an argument about it because the government made it illegal in the 30's without any reasoning behind it other than the Mexicans were bringing it in. Levi jeans used to be made out of hemp. That argument is completely stupid only on the basis that you used a bad example since you're wrong.

One of the thread's original questions was on why scriptures contradict each other and whether this implies that god contradicts himself. The answer is: men wrote them. Of course there are a bunch of contradictions.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Whoo! Even though it has been proven countless times that smoking cannibis is not only not bad for you medically, it helps. And that it does no permanent mental damage if it is not used in outrageous excess. Only one death has resulted from smoking weed. And that guy smoked about 10 joints a day for about 20 years.

There is only an argument about it because the government made it illegal in the 30's without any reasoning behind it other than the Mexicans were bringing it in. Levi jeans used to be made out of hemp. That argument is completely stupid only on the basis that you used a bad example since you're wrong.

(You just said yourself that smoking 10 joints a day for 20 years killed a man. That sounds like a medically bad thing to me. You are qualifying your statements with phrases like "if it is not used in outrageous excess". If weed was good for you, you wouldn't have to qualify it. Who proved it is good for you "countless times" and how did they prove such a thing? Weed makes you stupid. That in itself is bad enough.)

You have been smoking a little too much of the stuff yourself. I was not even talking about weed.

I am saying that you can find truth in anything... even your "facts".

(You just said yourself that smoking 10 joints a day for 20 years killed a man. That sounds like a medically bad thing to me. You are qualifying your statements with phrases like "if it is not used in outrageous excess". If weed was good for you, you wouldn't have to qualify it. Who proved it is good for you "countless times" and how did they prove such a thing? Weed makes you stupid. That in itself is bad enough.)
If you ate a lot of vegetables every day for 20 or more years of your life, you'd bloody die. That is the only case in HISTORY of anybody dying due to THC overdose(Since you fall asleep before it occurs). THC is the one of the most mild drugs on the planet. It has been used since pre-history. It was a REQUIREMENT for any farmer in the early stages of the American colonies to grow it. It was a cash crop that would grow anywhere. There has never been a time that it has been proven bad for you. You get a little disoriented and laugh a lot, but reaction times are actually increased. I know that one for a fact, because I waved my hand in a stoners face and I got bit before I even noticed it. Weed doesn't make you stupid, a friend of mine in 8th grade was stoned every time he took a test and aced them all. Weed has been proven to assist when you have glacoma(something like that), and it is a wonderful relaxant drug.

You have been smoking a little too much of the stuff yourself. I was not even talking about weed.
I don't smoke. And I knew you weren't talking directly about it, you mentioned it and were so wrong I had to say something.

Originally posted by Dio Seijuro
One of the thread's original questions was on why scriptures contradict each other and whether this implies that god contradicts himself. The answer is: men wrote them. Of course there are a bunch of contradictions.
That is exactly what I am trying to say, what I don't get is how anyone can believe that Islam is "divinely" written.

Originally posted by Chotch87
That is exactly what I am trying to say, what I don't get is how anyone can believe that Islam is "divinely" written.

that would apply to any religion. no one relgiion makes more snese than another. everything is based on blind faith.

Do not allow mans religions to occupy too much of the thinking mind. It can lead you away from the truths of all that is.

Not necessarily, Whammy. Some things are harder to believe than others.

frankyl, every religion has it's bits that are totally ridiculous. just the concept of god is hard for me to beleive in. in fact, I don't.

Not necessarily, Whammy. Some things are harder to believe than others.
And they are both easy to disbelieve when they are carbon copies and they both spew nonsense and corrupted stupidity!

I have only seen one person point out the obvious, it as all books were written by man, to say it was divinly written is to say it was told to Prophets who then wrote what they had been told. But to then translate to many different languages and dialects any impact will be lost.
If you look at the Christian Bible it contains one word that we have taken to mean Lucifer, Satan, well satan is greek for adversary. And if you look closely at the teachings in both some of the stories are the same only the names have been changed. If we look at the teachings to be anything more than stories or accounts designed to teach morals then we are putting to much into the writings of mere mortals.