While I believe that Christians are wrong in their beliefs I respect their right to believe what they want to believe. My problem is that I find even contemplating the idea that Christianity is true very hard to handle so when I see intelligent people who are die-hard Christians I really don't know how to feel. These are people I respect and admire but I can't help but wonder how they could possibly follow the religion.

I mean no offense to any Christians here, it is simply an issue that has really bugged me ever since I realized that I wasn't Christian.

Has anybody else had this same problem? I'm just curious as to what other people feel on this issue.

I think some interpretations of the bible may be misguided or bent for different reasons. war money power. other reasons too.

I think it is normal for intelligent thinking persons to ponder the validity of religion in their lives. Alot of christians, the blindly obeying kind haven't really educated themselves on the actual origins of their religion or the changes the faith has gone through over the generations. Christianity has evolved and changed from the beginning. The New Testament that we know is different from the original documentations of a mortal Jesus. It happened in Rome by a guy named Constanine. He did it to blend the beliefs of the original sun worshipping pagans with the exploding population of Christians. To create one big religion. To please both parties for political gain. There are so many aspects of modern christianity that were adopted from paganism.

I understand how you feel dib. It is very difficult for me to understand how christians resolve their belief in the biblical version of the creation with the fossil record. I think a lot of christians today blend their belief in the bible with what they have been taught about science. The ones I have trouble with are the christians who believe that every word in the Bible is the literal truth, or the unnerring word of God. To me this indicates a lack of reasoning ability on their part.

I used to go through a phase of about 2 years or so, during which I dislike Chrisitians in general. However now I've learned that there are houndreds if not thousands of denominations and just as many different views even among Christians. I now see the reason why most people enter the phase I've been through was because they've had bad experience with the more annoying ones. Now I'm areligious (not athiest) and am not trying to change your idea about this complicated religion. I just want to say there are many Christians you can be friends with and feel perfectly all right.

Originally posted by Dio Seijuro
. I just want to say there are many Christians you can be friends with and feel perfectly all right.

I completely understand that. I have a great many Christian friends. It just always gets me that someone can be so intelligent about a great many things and then believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible. I'll get over it but right now it is just confusing for me.

I suppose it is the same feeling of incomprehension that Christians have in trying to understand that I truely don't believe in or rely on a higher power.

I haven’t been a Christian all my life, but I’ve never had any trouble believing in the Christian religion or the bible. A lot of people get confused because they try to apply some scientific theory to the scriptures. In actuality, all you need is a little common logic and the Christian beliefs will make perfect sense to you.

Many Christians, myself included, were persuaded by events in our lives that can only be explained as divine intervention. I know some say there is a scientific explanation for everything, but this just simply isn’t true; I’ve seen many baffled doctors who were left at a loss for words when trying to explain a miraculous recovery.

Originally posted by Mopoloton
I’ve seen many baffled doctors who were left at a loss for words when trying to explain a miraculous recovery.

Just because we don't have a scientific explanation for something doesn't mean there isn't one. It's precisely this type of thinking that bothers me. The idea that if we can't explain it, it must be divine intervention is absurd. I hope this isn't the kind of logical thinking you were talking about in your post Mopo.

Originally posted by Mopoloton
In actuality, all you need is a little common logic and the Christian beliefs will make perfect sense to you.


Can you give an example of a christian belief that will make perfect sense with the application of common logic?

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Just because we don't have a scientific explanation for something doesn't mean there isn't one.
Just because we can’t see God doesn’t mean there isn’t one. See how it works both ways?

I’ve yet to come across ANY Christian beliefs that I can’t explain with a little common sense.

Originally posted by Mopoloton
Just because we can’t see God doesn’t mean there isn’t one. See how it works both ways?

True, but you have yet to offer any evidence of his existence beyond your personal belief, and since you are claiming that he does exist it's up to you to offer proof.

I’ve yet to come across ANY Christian beliefs that I can’t explain with a little common sense.

So pick ONE and lay a little of your logic on me.

I'll agree that some of the teachings of Christianity do seem logical. I'm thinking of some of the moral teachings of the religion when I say this. I consider myself a moral person but I also consider ammoral to subject oneself to the rules of a religion without justification. I follow some of the morals of Christianity because I personally believe it is the right thing to do. I can't even count how many people have told me that if they didn't have religion then there would be no need for them to follow any rules or morals. I just don't understand why people can't do something because it is the right thing to do and not because they have faith in a book that tells them it is the right thing to do.

Just because someones beliefs are diferent from the next, doesn't make them right or wrong, until it is proven to the nonbeliever.

Just because someones beliefs are diferent from the next, doesn't make them right or wrong

NOW, let's drill this notion into our government's head and declare equal rights for ALL.

Originally posted by Mopoloton
Many Christians, myself included, were persuaded by events in our lives that can only be explained as divine intervention. I know some say there is a scientific explanation for everything, but this just simply isn’t true; I’ve seen many baffled doctors who were left at a loss for words when trying to explain a miraculous recovery.

Okay. But why the Christian religion? I agree with the original poster, it just does NOT make any sense.

I believe in a higher being, but I am not Christian. That a deity had to die in order to save my worthless behind is not a concept I can believe in or agree with.

You say you are a Christian because you've seen miracles - why do those miracles have to be performed by the God of the Bible? Why couldn't, for example, Great Spirit of the Native American religions be the one pulling them off?

Maud has managed to say what I have been trying to say since I joined.

Being a christian is not just about your head, it envolves your heart. Intelligence has nothing to do with it, although I might add that many of the smartest men and women in the world are finding the evidence for Christ to great to ignore. Many people believe in their head, but unless that belief makes it to the heart and becomes repentance and love the One Who Saves, it isn't really faith. Faith is believing something even when the evidence is against it. But as to understanding Christianity, every person is able to understand it, from the smallest child to the most aged grandparent. The only people who don't understand are those who intentionally refuse to listen to what the Bible says and those who haven't really tried to understand it. What catagory do you fall into, Muad_did? (F.Y.I. Iam just 16)

True, but you have yet to offer any evidence of his existence beyond your personal belief, and since you are claiming that he does exist it's up to you to offer proof.
I’ve offered plenty of proof in previous posts. You, on the other hand, have yet to offer any proof that he does NOT exist.
So pick ONE and lay a little of your logic on me.
Why don’t YOU pick one, Vile. Which Christian belief do you find the most difficult to believe?

Originally posted by P Marie C
Okay. But why the Christian religion? I agree with the original poster, it just does NOT make any sense.

I believe in a higher being, but I am not Christian. That a deity had to die in order to save my worthless behind is not a concept I can believe in or agree with.

You say you are a Christian because you've seen miracles - why do those miracles have to be performed by the God of the Bible? Why couldn't, for example, Great Spirit of the Native American religions be the one pulling them off?
If you compare every major religion in the world, you’ll notice that their beliefs are very similar. I’ve said before that every religion believes in a higher power. Even those who worship multiple gods believe there is one ultimate who is more powerful than the rest. It is my belief that all religious people worship the same God, we just have different names for him.

Originally posted by Mopoloton
I’ve offered plenty of proof in previous posts. You, on the other hand, have yet to offer any proof that he does NOT exist.

Nice try Mopo, but you know as well as I that from a scientific standpoint it is difficult if not impossible to prove a negative. Carl Sagan said it best when he said "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". If your only "proof" is a lack of evidence to the contrary, you could use this tactic to prove the existence of Santa Claus, Bigfoot, and the Loch Ness Monster, but that doesn't "prove" their existence in any way.

Why don’t YOU pick one, Vile. Which Christian belief do you find the most difficult to believe?


As far as beliefs go, I think that to believe that a loving god would send me to hell to burn in torment for all eternity, simply because I choose not to believe that his son was some kind of savior, is grotesque in the extreme. It also does nothing to suggest that this god is a more advanced being, since he seems motivated by petty jealousy and hatred.

Originally posted by Mopoloton
If you compare every major religion in the world, you’ll notice that their beliefs are very similar. I’ve said before that every religion believes in a higher power. Even those who worship multiple gods believe there is one ultimate who is more powerful than the rest. It is my belief that all religious people worship the same God, we just have different names for him.

Yes, there are many universal truths, shared by the majority of religions, big and small. And I share the belief that Deity has many names and faces.

So, Mopoloton -- I'm curious.. it sounds like you're saying that anyone who follows a religion with a higher being is essentially following your God? Does that mean that Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Pagans, Indigenous peoples and the like are all Heaven-bound, in your views, even if they've heard the Christ story? Or, do you believe that "Jesus is the only way"? If we all worship the same God, what's the benefit of Christianity over, say, indigenous belief systems?

If you compare every major religion in the world, you’ll notice that their beliefs are very similar. I’ve said before that every religion believes in a higher power. Even those who worship multiple gods believe there is one ultimate who is more powerful than the rest. It is my belief that all religious people worship the same God, we just have different names for him.


I like the way you think. For too long, religions have been competing with each other. Its like Aquifina vs. Dasani. They both sell water, just with a different wrapper. There is no difference other than the title really.

What is really ironic is that these religions speak of forgiveniss an honoring others beliefs, yet there is such a thing as a "holy war" But dont these religions preach of peace?

So, until all these different factions get their shit in order, im just gonna keep on worshiping my old god. The Sun. What's not to love? It asks of nothing, it doesnt judge me, i get to see my god every day, and every day it brings heat, light, and a sense of calm into my life. And to this day i can prove it is a god. After all, aren't stars called heavenly bodies? Well, the classic form of God seems like a heavenly body. So by Christain standards, i have found god. It can give and take life, it lights my way through life, and it forgives me for my sins by continuing to shine. What more could a guy ask for???

why dont you go to church for a while and see what its all about. maybe you can get a better insight into the christian religion there than on allforums

Originally posted by Mopoloton
I’ve yet to come across ANY Christian beliefs that I can’t explain with a little common sense.

mmm...What Bible are you using?

Christian beliefs are not so bad for the most part, especially in terms of how those beliefs relate to how one person should be acceptant of another.

The problem is that a lot of the time these beliefs are used to persecute, belittle and pass judgement. It can swing from reasonable application thru to twisted bigotry. Problem is it's not a normal distribution.

asking people on this board to tell you about christianity is like asking your local anarchist war protester to tell you all about the military. go ask a pastor or someone who knows what they are talking about if you realy want to know.

I have no problem with the idea of Christianity. I have no problem with any religions similar to it as well. I do have a problem with what it has turned into. Now, it is all about trying to convert people to your religon, and if that means killing everyone else in their religion, so be it. I say, let people believe whatever they want to believe, if it turns out you were right, you can laugh at them when u r dead. But until then, no one can be sure which is right, so how do you know that you r doing a favor to someone by converting them?

What I still can't understand is how people can believe the bible word for word when there are obvious errors, and how those who admit the errors in the bible can still believe that the rest is true.

not everyone takes everything literally in the bible. there are stories, with morals, that are there to teach us how to live. I still cant believe that people still think everyone takes the bible literally. while there are some, they are fer and far between. these are usually your cult memebers and crazies. 99% of people realize that most of these are stories, like the boy who cried wolf, that have morals to learn from.

As far as beliefs go, I think that to believe that a loving god would send me to hell to burn in torment for all eternity, simply because I choose not to believe that his son was some kind of savior, is grotesque in the extreme. It also does nothing to suggest that this god is a more advanced being, since he seems motivated by petty jealousy and hatred.
It’s not God who sends a person to Hell. I told you before about the “free will” thing; God will never force us to do anything during our lives here on Earth. What he has done is supplied us with the basic knowledge of right from wrong. If you choose to ignore this knowledge and follow the wrong path, God has no choice but to allow you to reach the end of that path, which is Hell. Ultimately, you’re in charge of your own destiny. If you go down the wrong road, you’ve no one but yourself to blame.
So, Mopoloton -- I'm curious.. it sounds like you're saying that anyone who follows a religion with a higher being is essentially following your God? Does that mean that Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Pagans, Indigenous peoples and the like are all Heaven-bound, in your views, even if they've heard the Christ story? Or, do you believe that "Jesus is the only way"? If we all worship the same God, what's the benefit of Christianity over, say, indigenous belief systems?
It would be better to say “our” God. Whether or not someone is Heaven-bound depends entirely on that person. Many people boast about being truly committed to their religion, then turn right around and condemn someone else. Most, if not all, major religions believe that it is wrong for one person to pass judgment on another. Each person is held responsible for his or her motives and actions here on Earth. Simply labeling yourself a Christian, Muslim, etc. doesn’t mean anything if you are a judgmental prick who condemns others.

Originally posted by Mopoloton
It’s not God who sends a person to Hell. I told you before about the “free will” thing; God will never force us to do anything during our lives here on Earth.

Well, he may not want to "force" us to believe in him, but apparently he's not above a little intimidation.

What he has done is supplied us with the basic knowledge of right from wrong. If you choose to ignore this knowledge and follow the wrong path, God has no choice but to allow you to reach the end of that path, which is Hell.

Why does God have no choice? He can do anything he wants can't he? What if you follow the wrong path out of sheer ignorance? God did not grant ALL of us the knowledge of right and wrong, just the Christians. If God created EVERYONE does that mean he wants Buddhists and Taoists to burn in hell and that's why he didn't teach them too?

Ultimately, you’re in charge of your own destiny. If you go down the wrong road, you’ve no one but yourself to blame.


Granted Christianity is the most widespread religion in the world, but that still leaves hundreds of millions, if not billions, of God's creatures who live their whole lives without ever once being exposed to the holy word of God as written in the Bible. Why has God forsaken them?

I still cant believe that people still think everyone takes the bible literally. while there are some, they are fer and far between.

I agree that there are very few who take the bible word for word, because there are obvious flaws in it. I also agree that there are good morals one can learn in the bible.

Where I am confused is why people still believe any of the unproven (non-disproven) parts of the bible. There has been so much that has been disproven, yet there are still people who will forgive those errors for one reason or another.

Originally posted by WindWip
Where I am confused is why people still believe any of the unproven (non-disproven) parts of the bible. There has been so much that has been disproven, yet there are still people who will forgive those errors for one reason or another.

The way I approach it is that the Bible was the writers' interpretation of the world around them. So there's bound to be lots of misinterpretations. Did God really extend the day to give the Israelites light to defeat their enemies? Maybe. Or maybe it was a full moon. Who knows?

I have a question for christians: What happens to my cat when it dies? I dont think it believes in God or Jesus. Heck, i dont even think it believes in anything existing outside my back yard. So is it going to hell for not accepting God?

Originally posted by Evil Homer
I have a question for christians: What happens to my cat when it dies? I dont think it believes in God or Jesus. Heck, i dont even think it believes in anything existing outside my back yard. So is it going to hell for not accepting God?

It goes to Hades and gets chased by cerberus for all eternity :D

This is one of my favorite stories:
http://www.caw.org/articles/otherpeople.html
:D How many here have heard this story before?

Originally posted by Mopoloton
It’s not God who sends a person to Hell. I told you before about the “free will” thing; God will never force us to do anything during our lives here on Earth. What he has done is supplied us with the basic knowledge of right from wrong. If you choose to ignore this knowledge and follow the wrong path, God has no choice but to allow you to reach the end of that path, which is Hell. Ultimately, you’re in charge of your own destiny. If you go down the wrong road, you’ve no one but yourself to blame.

And, what *is* the "wrong road"? Do you believe Jesus is the only way, as the New Testament says? If I don't believe Jesus is the path, even though I've been told otherwise, but I'm otherwise a good, honest person who treats my fellow human with dignity, am I hellbound? I have "issues" with a God who even creates such a place.

Each person is held responsible for his or her motives and actions here on Earth. Simply labeling yourself a Christian, Muslim, etc. doesn’t mean anything if you are a judgmental prick who condemns others.

Amen, Bro! My Pagan faith (not to be confused with Vile Pagan;)) is HUGE on personal responsibility, which is why I disagree with the whole original sin thing. Oh my, we're all so weak, we just can't help being pure eviiilllll, we need our knight in shining armour to come in and die for us, to "cleanse" us in his blood.

Nope, I'm responsible for cleaning up my own messes. And I've learned that I CAN control my own actions, that I am NOT inherantly born to do bad and in need of rescue.

I've got this whole thought going on about heaven and hell, but I won't clutter this thread with all that. How 'bout I start a thread called "Afterlife"? I think I will!

Vile, you’re incorrect. Everyone is born with the knowledge of right from wrong. It doesn’t matter if you’re Buddhist, Muslim, pagan, or whatever, you know it’s wrong to steal, kill, etc. Also, God hasn’t forsaken anyone. Everyone is exposed to God in some way or another. They have different names for their selected religions, and for the deity himself, but we all worship the same God.

Marie C’s last post is probably the most accurate so far; we are all responsible for our own actions. God doesn’t intervene because he shouldn’t have to. We have the ability and the knowledge to make the right decisions and follow through with them. God gave you a brain, he expects you to use it.

Originally posted by Mopoloton
Vile, you’re incorrect. Everyone is born with the knowledge of right from wrong. It doesn’t matter if you’re Buddhist, Muslim, pagan, or whatever, you know it’s wrong to steal, kill, etc.
Not really...it all depends on your upbringing. If you were born into a household where they promoted that stuff, you'd do it. You'd keep doing it if the police, schools, etc. didn't tell you to stop.

i dont think anyone who realizes that when you hurt or steal from other people they feel the same way you do when you are hurt or stolen from, would do those things. of course if you are brought up doing that, you will keep doing it until you really realize what it feels like.

Vile, you’re incorrect. Everyone is born with the knowledge of right from wrong. It doesn’t matter if you’re Buddhist, Muslim, pagan, or whatever, you know it’s wrong to steal, kill, etc.
Frankly, mopo, what you're saying goes against years of behaviorist research. It has been shown that most of what a human does is based off of the conditions in which they grew up. If you grew up in a different household, you'd be quite different. You'd most likely not have these views of religion. Same with everybody else. People in other parts of the world see nothing wrong with killing, cannibalism in the Pacific? Many see nothing wrong with stealing. If they were raised like you, they'd probably think differently. They aren't there at birth, we become conditioned with them as we grow.

Originally posted by Mopoloton
Vile, you’re incorrect. Everyone is born with the knowledge of right from wrong.

Actually we are born with no knowledge whatsoever, we are however prewired to think in certain ways.

It doesn’t matter if you’re Buddhist, Muslim, pagan, or whatever, you know it’s wrong to steal, kill, etc.

So everyone, christian or not, all believes in the same moral code?

I'm especially interested in that etc. part...is this universally understood moral code the same one written about in the bible?

Also, God hasn’t forsaken anyone. Everyone is exposed to God in some way or another. They have different names for their selected religions, and for the deity himself, but we all worship the same God.

Bull. How do you figure that the several dozen gods(at least) that the Hindus worship is the one god of christianity? It is a common myth perpetuated by people who understand nothing about other religions and who want to ignore the questions that are raised by the fact that there are other older religions than christianity.

God gave you a brain, he expects you to use it.

Does your God want me to use my brain to question his existence?

Originally posted by Evil Homer
So, until all these different factions get their shit in order, im just gonna keep on worshiping my old god. The Sun. What's not to love? It asks of nothing, it doesnt judge me, i get to see my god every day, and every day it brings heat, light, and a sense of calm into my life. And to this day i can prove it is a god. After all, aren't stars called heavenly bodies? Well, the classic form of God seems like a heavenly body. So by Christain standards, i have found god. It can give and take life, it lights my way through life, and it forgives me for my sins by continuing to shine. What more could a guy ask for???

That was just awesome. :thumbs:

Someone who is raised in an environment that promotes stealing and killing will perform these tasks because of either peer pressure or respect for his mentors, but will know deep down that what he is doing is wrong. Even children who are taught to steal will question their teachers once in a while. The basic knowledge of right from wrong is something nobody can fully suppress, no matter how hard they try. This is why I don’t accept that BS I hear in criminal courtrooms about the defendant “not knowing any better.” Everyone is responsible for his or her own actions, end of story.

The Hindus and other religions that believe in multiple gods also believe there is one ultimate God who is more powerful than the rest. Although Christians don’t believe in multiple gods, we do believe in angles that are more powerful than humans but not as powerful as God himself. This is just one of many similarities between the world’s religions.

Vile, look at it this way, if you’d never used your brain to question God’s existence, you wouldn’t have had me here to explain it all to you, so something good came out of it.

Blib, you sure cannibalism really exists? That’s not just something in the movies?

Originally posted by Mopoloton


Blib, you sure cannibalism really exists? That’s not just something in the movies?

it exists in some parts of the owrld, although nobody uses it as a regular sourceo f nutrition. there is definite evidence that earlier humans were cannibalsistic and ate their dead as an alternative to hunting.

Originally posted by Mopoloton
Someone who is raised in an environment that promotes stealing and killing will perform these tasks because of either peer pressure or respect for his mentors, but will know deep down that what he is doing is wrong. Even children who are taught to steal will question their teachers once in a while. The basic knowledge of right from wrong is something nobody can fully suppress, no matter how hard they try.

I know a little girl, about age 7. Parents are jerkwads. Little girl was trained to think the world revolves around her, and she can do no wrong. She's put popsycles in my son's hair, she's pulled down her little sister's diaper and told her parents my son did it, she's litterally tormented my 5 y/o son. And the parents believe every word out of her mouth. She was not raised to know the difference between right and wrong. She still needs to be taught that, and sadly, I don't think that will happen any time soon.

The Hindus and other religions that believe in multiple gods also believe there is one ultimate God who is more powerful than the rest. Although Christians don’t believe in multiple gods, we do believe in angles that are more powerful than humans but not as powerful as God himself. This is just one of many similarities between the world’s religions.

Yes, there are many similarities. There are also many differences. And not ALL indigenous faiths believe in one supreme being above all the others.

Vile, look at it this way, if you’d never used your brain to question God’s existence, you wouldn’t have had me here to explain it all to you, so something good came out of it.

HUNH?!?? Either I completely don't know what you're getting at with that and misunderstand, or I'm HIGHLY insulted. What good comes out of pulling someone away from their own search for Truth, or their own base of truth, to replant them in your own beliefs? What makes you think you corner the market on Truth? How are your beliefs more valid and "sacred" than anyone else's beliefs?

Originally posted by Vilepagan
True, but you have yet to offer any evidence of his existence beyond your personal belief, and since you are claiming that he does exist it's up to you to offer proof.

Wow, that's a pretty tall order to have to offer proof that God exists! Men have been trying forever and now it's up to Mopo?? Good luck Mopo, truth is people are going to believe what they are going to believe no matter what you try to prove.

Originally posted by muad_dib
I'll agree that some of the teachings of Christianity do seem logical. I'm thinking of some of the moral teachings of the religion when I say this. I consider myself a moral person but I also consider ammoral to subject oneself to the rules of a religion without justification. I follow some of the morals of Christianity because I personally believe it is the right thing to do. I can't even count how many people have told me that if they didn't have religion then there would be no need for them to follow any rules or morals. I just don't understand why people can't do something because it is the right thing to do and not because they have faith in a book that tells them it is the right thing to do.

It's not just that though muad_dib. It's a journey. I hear you saying that your frustrations are with the Christians that are uneducated about Christianity and the beginnings of it etc....we just follow, we just follow. But that's not true. My Christianity came from a lifetime of learning. Learning and fighting and reading tarot and studying the Kabalah...Hinduism, you name it. But as far as I'm concerned, I'm with Mopo that there are times in your life that you just know. Just like Vile being gay, he just knows, one day he just knew. And he will spend the rest of his life defending that he knows, his "testimony" if you will. The huge debate is connecting with someone who can't rely on something that they FEEL when it relates to a God. There is no proof. It is the one thing you truly are on your own to find. And the one thing you have to believe in by yourself against all odds. Even if it's not God, believe in something with all you have. Logic in the Bible? Faith is a logical concept.

Originally posted by Evil Homer
I have a question for christians: What happens to my cat when it dies? I dont think it believes in God or Jesus. Heck, i dont even think it believes in anything existing outside my back yard. So is it going to hell for not accepting God?



According to any christian I have spoken to, animals have no souls and therefore go to neither heaven or hell. It is a cartload of old crap as far as I am concerned, but that is what I have been told.

Mainstream religion has a lot to answer for, as far as current world events are proving, and I would never go back into a church again through choice. My experience with the catholic church has been a very poor one, and nothing would convince me that they are christian like at all. Their own preists can't even follow the commandments set for them, and then they set out to condemn others............the whole thing is a farce.

Originally posted by Dreamweaver
According to any christian I have spoken to, animals have no souls and therefore go to neither heaven or hell. It is a cartload of old crap as far as I am concerned, but that is what I have been told.

Of all of the times I've been to church, animal souls were never discussed. I think a lot of people just make stuff up and pretend it's doctrine.

[i]Mainstream religion has a lot to answer for, as far as current world events are proving, and I would never go back into a church again through choice. My experience with the catholic church has been a very poor one, and nothing would convince me that they are christian like at all. Their own preists can't even follow the commandments set for them, and then they set out to condemn others............the whole thing is a farce. [/B]

While I've got a lot of issues with the Catholic church, I don't think Christians (or any other religion) should be condemned because of the lack of perfection of its adherents/officients. We're all flawed in some way.

The main downfall of Man's religions is that they involve man.
Originally the set of rules established to enable groups of individuals to co-exist with each other under an umbrella of (civilization) in various forms probably had good intentions.
Some were given status and power because of their so called direct access to, god or gods, and others fed and clothed them for their wisdom and or protection in the mis-understood ups and downs of human existance.
Various groups have various beliefs and rituals to satisfy the masses. But each group has individuals of different mental development. In other words Humans. Therefore we see various acts of which we approve or disapprove as individuals.
I have seen no group of humans completely agree on anything except when the Mob temperment is temporarily present.

Blame it on the priests! KILL THEM ALL!!! What's that quote...
"Mankind shall not be free until the last king is strangled in the entrails of the last priest."
Diderot

Well I am Christian,You might not know it because I might not show it.And to me It is something I enjoy being a part of.I have worked at it over the years. And have gotten better........Does not
mean That I am supreme However, It does give me the chance.

Originally posted by P Marie C
Okay. But why the Christian religion? I agree with the original poster, it just does NOT make any sense.

I believe in a higher being, but I am not Christian. That a deity had to die in order to save my worthless behind is not a concept I can believe in or agree with.

You say you are a Christian because you've seen miracles - why do those miracles have to be performed by the God of the Bible? Why couldn't, for example, Great Spirit of the Native American religions be the one pulling them off?

God exists. Native Americans say "Great Spirit", Muslims say "Allah".

I'm sure there are many words around the globe for "water", but no one debates about wether "water" or "agua" quenches thirst the best.

Here's the proof: the Universe.

What's more likely?:

A man walking on water (which they do in every other karate movie)

or

The entire Universe coming into being out of nothingness because of pure chance.

Originally posted by P Marie C
Okay. But why the Christian religion? ... I believe in a higher being, but I am not Christian. That a deity had to die in order to save my worthless behind is not a concept I can believe in or agree with.

Originally posted by Ed Blank
God exists. Native Americans say "Great Spirit", Muslims say "Allah".

I'm sure there are many words around the globe for "water", but no one debates about wether "water" or "agua" quenches thirst the best.

Here's the proof: the Universe.
What's more likely?:
A man walking on water (which they do in every other karate movie)
or
The entire Universe coming into being out of nothingness because of pure chance.

Uh.. yea.. that's what I was saying. Looking at my above quote, which you quoted, I state I believe in a higher being.

But why the "Christ"ian religion? I believe in Deity. I even believe Jesus was the son of Deity. The difference is, I also believe I am a daughter of Deity, my cat is a daughter of Deity, the tree in my backyard is a child of Deity, so Jesus, while maybe more enlightened than others, was nothing "special" simply because of his status as the son of God.

So.. why do Christians insist that "Jesus is the only way"? Why would 90% +/- of the world's population be going to Hell because they believe in Great Spirit, and think Jesus was simply an okay guy?

I am a Born Again Chrisitan but I am also a scientifically minded person.

No religion is more enlightened that any other because they all say, basically, the same things. The essence of true religion is science itself.

"Thou shalt not steal"

Powerful. Not because God is going to turn you into a pillar of Mrs Dash, but because it's the way to live. If everyone was a theif there would be nothing to steal. Some people have to work so others can steal. Scientifically, the best scenario is one in which everyone works and no one steals.

All the tenets of every major religion are like that.

So no, Christianity is not the only way. But all ways are the right way (assuming that the basis of your "religion" is truth).

Originally posted by Ed Blank
I am a Born Again Chrisitan but I am also a scientifically minded person.

No religion is more enlightened that any other because they all say, basically, the same things. The essence of true religion is science itself.

"Thou shalt not steal"

Powerful. Not because God is going to turn you into a pillar of Mrs Dash, but because it's the way to live. If everyone was a theif there would be nothing to steal. Some people have to work so others can steal. Scientifically, the best scenario is one in which everyone works and no one steals.

All the tenets of every major religion are like that.

So no, Christianity is not the only way. But all ways are the right way (assuming that the basis of your "religion" is truth).

Cool. :D

That's along the lines of my own beliefs; universal truths. I just never have heard someone who calls himself Born Again who agrees! :drinktoth

Originally posted by P Marie C
So.. why do Christians insist that "Jesus is the only way"? Why would 90% +/- of the world's population be going to Hell because they believe in Great Spirit, and think Jesus was simply an okay guy?
Largely because Jesus said he is the only way to heaven, and his apostles said he is the only way to heaven. Jesus is the only person to back up his claims with his own resurrection.
The God of the bible is different from the gods of the Hindu’s, or the god of Islam, or the non-god of the Buddhist. Even the Mormons and J. W. s have a different God then the God of the Bible.

Originally posted by stark
Largely because Jesus said he is the only way to heaven, and his apostles said he is the only way to heaven. Jesus is the only person to back up his claims with his own resurrection.
The God of the bible is different from the gods of the Hindu’s, or the god of Islam, or the non-god of the Buddhist. Even the Mormons and J. W. s have a different God then the God of the Bible.

And what makes the God of the Bible special vs all the other religions? Exactly how is it different and what can you provide to backup the claim that the others are mistaken and you are right?

Don't get me wrong - I think there is nothing wrong with being a Christian. Christian teachings hold a lot of value and make a lot of sense. The thing I don't follow though is the part when it turns into - believe what we believe or you are all doomed.

There are millions of people - billions in fact, that believe what they believe just as strongly - doesn't that turn on a light bulb and perhaps send a message that the whole exclusivity on salvation if you are not in the right club is a bit flawed?

Originally posted by stark
Largely because Jesus said he is the only way to heaven, and his apostles said he is the only way to heaven. Jesus is the only person to back up his claims with his own resurrection.
The God of the bible is different from the gods of the Hindu’s, or the god of Islam, or the non-god of the Buddhist. Even the Mormons and J. W. s have a different God then the God of the Bible.

A creator that's willing to send 90% of his/her creation into hell deserves to be in hell him/herself. I do not believe a god like that exists.

And, you sound as though you are Christian. Are you saying there ARE other Gods besides the Christian one?

Post Script:

I don't think that many people who believe in a Deity will argue that Deity is much, much larger than ANY mere human can imagine Him/Her. God is not limited by human imagination.

So, why do we try and put Him into a box? To me, that's what formal religion is. It's trying to define an undefinable Being.

"MY God is bigger than YOUR God!" Bah. Third grade stuff.

Originally posted by stark
Largely because Jesus said he is the only way to heaven, and his apostles said he is the only way to heaven. Jesus is the only person to back up his claims with his own resurrection.

I found a pamphlet that said the only way to heaven was Cheese! I thought that was silly, but the pamphlet also said that the pamphlet was never wrong. Well then, it *must* be right! GO CHEESE!

Jesus is not the only, nor even the first, sacrificed Deity. To start, research the Egyptian Gods. And there are other examples, too.

Originally posted by DrewM
There are millions of people - billions in fact, that believe what they believe just as strongly - doesn't that turn on a light bulb and perhaps send a message that the whole exclusivity on salvation if you are not in the right club is a bit flawed?
Truth, by definition is exclusive. My claim is that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation, this is not something I made up, it is found in the Bible. So here you have Christianity making a claim to exclusivity. Now talk to a Buddhist, ask him if a person who rejects Buddha, rejects the four noble truths including the eight fold path, and rejects the Triple Gem will reach nirvana upon death? No they won’t. To the Buddhist the way to nirvana will only be reached by following a certain set of rules. Talk to a Muslim, will a Christian or a Jew, or even a Jewish Christian who rejects Allah go to heaven? I think you know their answer. How about a Hindu? Ask a Hindu in India if an untouchable accepts Jesus as his or her savior, will they skip all the laws of karma and go right to heaven? No, as a matter of fact India is setting up some pretty strict anti-conversion laws. How about the atheist, would someone who believes in God and in Jesus Christ be accepted as a member of an atheist only club? Exclusivity is found in religions all around the world, they make a truth claim, and any claim that would be opposite would be false. I think it’s a matter of Logic; If I say there is only one God who has made himself known in the person of His Son Jesus Christ, yet someone else says “no there is only one God, and that one God has no son.” Then another person comes along and says that, “there are actually 300 million Gods“, followed by a person who says “there is no personal God at all just an impersonal force.” Would all these people be correct? One of these people are right and the rest are wrong, or none of them are right, but logically they cannot all be right. So I bring you this: Either the Bible is right and all other religions are wrong, or the Bible is wrong and one of the other religions are right or all the religions are wrong. The question I have now is this…is my statement correct?

I know a little girl, about age 7. Parents are jerkwads. Little girl was trained to think the world revolves around her, and she can do no wrong. She's put popsycles in my son's hair, she's pulled down her little sister's diaper and told her parents my son did it, she's litterally tormented my 5 y/o son. And the parents believe every word out of her mouth. She was not raised to know the difference between right and wrong. She still needs to be taught that, and sadly, I don't think that will happen any time soon.
That little girl knows what she does is wrong, she just doesn’t care. In fact, that’s probably the reason she does those things: she’s getting away with breaking the rules and that’s fun. What that child needs is to have her little butt tanned by a paddle the next time she does something wrong. That’d fix her right up.
HUNH?!?? Either I completely don't know what you're getting at with that and misunderstand, or I'm HIGHLY insulted. What good comes out of pulling someone away from their own search for Truth, or their own base of truth, to replant them in your own beliefs? What makes you think you corner the market on Truth? How are your beliefs more valid and "sacred" than anyone else's beliefs
Just ignore that quote; it was a feeble attempt at sarcasm.

Originally posted by DrewM
There are millions of people - billions in fact, that believe what they believe just as strongly - doesn't that turn on a light bulb and perhaps send a message that the whole exclusivity on salvation if you are not in the right club is a bit flawed?

Originally posted by stark
Truth, by definition is exclusive. My claim is that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation, this is not something I made up, it is found in the Bible. ... Now talk to a Buddhist, ... <politely snipped for length> I think it’s a matter of Logic; If I say there is only one God who has made himself known in the person of His Son Jesus Christ, yet someone else says “no there is only one God, and that one God has no son.” Then another person comes along and says that, “there are actually 300 million Gods“, followed by a person who says “there is no personal God at all just an impersonal force.” Would all these people be correct? One of these people are right and the rest are wrong, or none of them are right, but logically they cannot all be right. So I bring you this: Either the Bible is right and all other religions are wrong, or the Bible is wrong and one of the other religions are right or all the religions are wrong. The question I have now is this…is my statement correct?

Yes, your statement is correct that Christianity is either right or it is wrong. Or, you could add another scenario.. there could be multiple dimensions, and everyone could be correct.

I think you've just reiterted exactly what DrewM was saying, that there are too many religions which claim they are "THE" correct one. What makes Christianity's claim more valid than the Budhist, Muslim, etc.? If you know that a (Muslim, Hindu, take your pick) is steadfast in his belief system, and happy with it, do you think you have a duty to convert him? Would you care to have a (Muslim, Hindu..) try and remove your faith foundation out from under you to replace it with theirs, because they feel you are wrong? Why do that to others?

Hey, maybe God is :alien: . Wouldn't that be a kicker??

Originally posted by stark
So I bring you this: Either the Bible is right and all other religions are wrong, or the Bible is wrong and one of the other religions are right or all the religions are wrong. The question I have now is this…is my statement correct?

Something about that post tweaked me wrong, and I didn't know why at first. Then I realized, this is that whole black-white thing all over again. You're either right, or you're wrong. What about all the similarities in all of the religions? What about Universal Truths? The "Golden Rule" has existed in just about every religion in every age, in one form or another, as an example.

If you come across five Great Flood Myths, which are highly similar but contain a few very detailed differences, why dwell on the differences and condemn the other four Myths? Why not accept that there is truth in all of them?

Originally posted by P Marie C
you come across five Great Flood Myths, which are highly similar but contain a few very detailed differences, why dwell on the differences and condemn the other four Myths? Why not accept that there is truth in all of them?

Because people have this strange desire to convert religion into an incredibly complex set of absolute rules which can never be broken. And what gets me is that they make up these goofy-ass exceptions that basically enable them to do whatever they want without feeling guilty. Hence you end up with the Amish lighting their stores with old-fashioned gas lights and yet they have modern cash registers and credit card machines. There are orthodox Jews that have phones with holes instead of buttons. Pressing buttons on the Sabbath would be sinful work, but breaking a magnetic field with a little metal rod to dial a phone somehow isn't? And of course there was that huge thread about what you can and cannot do if you're a Muslim. There's just no way God is that hyper-technical. Either we're all basically right and that's good enough, or we're all screwed.

Originally posted by Mopoloton
That little girl knows what she does is wrong, she just doesn’t care. In fact, that’s probably the reason she does those things: she’s getting away with breaking the rules and that’s fun. What that child needs is to have her little butt tanned by a paddle the next time she does something wrong. That’d fix her right up.

Conditioning a kid not to do wrong for fear of punishment might be a second-choice way of doing things.. I'd rather show my kids the benefits of doing good, and have them choose to not do wrong for it's own reward.

Now, to get back on topic, sorta..

A kid always knows when he's doing wrong? My daughter has friends over, and sometimes she'll monopolize things, or she and one girl will have a blast while ignoring the other girl. I then point out to her how miserable her other friend feels at being left out. My daughter usually is very friendly, and wouldn't hurt a fly, but she has to be *told* that she is hurting someone when what she's doing "wrong" seems so obvious to me. Sometimes, with some things, kids do need to be taught what's right and what's wrong.

Just ignore that quote; it was a feeble attempt at sarcasm.

Reading back over my post, I think I was a little off the wall that day. Sorry. :flowers:

Originally posted by P Marie C
"MY God is bigger than YOUR God!" Bah. Third grade stuff.

Hmm... that's not just said by unedumacated people, either.

From this article:
http://www.berkeleydaily.org/text/article.cfm?issue=05-28-04&storyID=18971

Last year Lt. General Jerry Boykin, the deputy undersecretary of defense for intelligence, a veteran of the Somalia campaign and one of the men charged with leading the pursuit of Osama Bin Laden, was more clear, quoted at various times as saying that Islamic terrorists hate Americans “because we’re a Christian nation, because our foundation and our roots are Judeo-Christian ... and the enemy is a guy named Satan. … We in the army of God, in the house of God, kingdom of god have been raised for such a time as this.” Talking about what gave him confidence in a battle with a Somalian Muslim commander, Boykin explained, “I knew my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real god and his was an idol.”

Again, BAH.

I found a pamphlet that said the only way to heaven was Cheese! I thought that was silly, but the pamphlet also said that the pamphlet was never wrong. Well then, it *must* be right! GO CHEESE! --P Marie CActually, that was a typo. It should have said Cheez Whiz™. Sorry for the confusion.
;)


My beef with organized religion ("christian" or otherwise) is the whole conversion/you must be SAAAAAVED! thing.

I'm not religious. I was raised Catholic, but not overly so. The family dutifully went to church on Sundays and holy days until I was about 12, then gradually we stopped going altogether. And while I do not live my life by any specific religious "rules," I've tried to follow the basic tenets of being a good human (which generally correspond to the Commandments - don't steal, don't kill, don't lie, don't be an ass, etc.) - because it's the right thing to do, NOT because some church/religion/god says I should.

I'm cool with folks who have a strong belief in whatever god - believe whatever you like, it doesn't make one bit of difference to me - but when their god and their church tells them that they must go out and save pathetic unwashed souls by bringing them into their god's loving embrace... and when they do that by, say, enticing them with food and medicine...

Specifically, the whole missionary thing annoys me. Yes, it's very laudatory that there are people willing to go out to nasty, dangerous parts of the world to help the truly needy and destitute, but they use blackmail to do it. They say, "Here's some fortifying food and drink and medicine to make you healthy. All you have to do is come sit in my church and listen to my speeches about the great and loving god who gave you all these wonderful things to improve your life."

Well, do you think these starving, dying people are going to refuse food and medicine?

:mad:

I don't know, it just seems like coersion and bribery, blackmail and trickery to me...

Originally posted by F. de Marzipan

My beef with organized religion ("christian" or otherwise) is the whole conversion/you must be SAAAAAVED! thing.


The whole "saved" thing is more specific to the really evangelical branches of Christianity. I never knew what being "saved" meant for a long time because it wasn't brought up in my church.

Originally posted by F. de Marzipan
I'm cool with folks who have a strong belief in whatever god - believe whatever you like, it doesn't make one bit of difference to me - but when their god and their church tells them that they must go out and save pathetic unwashed souls by bringing them into their god's loving embrace... and when they do that by, say, enticing them with food and medicine...

Specifically, the whole missionary thing annoys me. Yes, it's very laudatory that there are people willing to go out to nasty, dangerous parts of the world to help the truly needy and destitute, but they use blackmail to do it. They say, "Here's some fortifying food and drink and medicine to make you healthy. All you have to do is come sit in my church and listen to my speeches about the great and loving god who gave you all these wonderful things to improve your life."

Well, do you think these starving, dying people are going to refuse food and medicine?

:mad:

I don't know, it just seems like coersion and bribery, blackmail and trickery to me...

::sigh::

I agree with you 100% with that. They're destroying these people's cultures. Ridding them of their time-honored rituals and obliterating their histories. We tell them that the ways they have been honoring God for CENTURIES is "of the devil", and we entice them with food to "save their souls".

Just a comment on that orginal sin business. People aren't born with sin, and yes it also has to do with their upbringings, but a baby has no concept of right and wrong theirfore, if they died at say the age of a couple of months old, yes they would go to heaven, not because they have accepted jesus or anything, it's because they are sinless.