wow, pagan agrees I lost an argument? big suprise there.

Original post by Trav:
you mentioned more than once how the pledge of allegiance is highly offensive to people. the funny thing is, that when these same people hear soemone mention how they are highly offended by some of the shows on TV with their graphic sexual material, they laugh and say if you dont like it dont watch, well we say the same to them , if you dont like it dont say it, but dont take away our right to say it because you are offended by a word.

If you are offended by a TV show you can turn it off becuase its in your own home. If the TV was brought into your kid's classroom and they were forced to watch the offensive show every day, then your analogy would be a good one. People don't care if their kid hears the word "God", they just don't want a pledge led by the school to mention it when some parents might want to teach thier kid that there is no God. Here is a little test for all of you who think no one should be offended by having their kid sit through a daily pledge to a religious belief they don't believe in....Suppose an atheist teacher started off every class with a pledge that mentioned "God does not exist". Are you going to seriously tell me that would be OK? People who are now saying "don't be offended, your kid can doesn't have to say the Under God part" will be screaming their heads off. You can tell them their kid can just sit there and not say the "God does not exist" part...its not being forced on them...yeah right! That would go over smoothly.

And how would not leading a public shool full of kids in a pledge that says "under God" be taking away your kids right to say "under God"? He can still spend his entire day at school repeating the phrase, as long as it doesn't interfere with the class. Abracadabra is not in the pledge either, does that mean I don't have a right to say it?

saycricket said "Imagining that there are this many atheist teenagers, on this board alone, literally BLOWS MY MIND!!"

Hey Crick.... did you know my 16 y/o son is an athiest?

"I also would like to know how hard it must be for you NOT to say the words "Under God" while in a large homeroom with half of the students probably not even reciting the Pledge as it is."

Eh, unless they make a big deal over it, I can't imagine their classmates noticing. *I* skip the words "under God", just on principal, and no one seems to notice.

Still tho.. kids being picked on or no, it's the parents that should have the right to teach their kids religion, not the state.

And in my opinion, having 5 y/o's learn to recite a PLEDGE every day is wrong in several ways. The most important being, that a kid that age doesn't even know what a pledge IS, much less have the moral standing to commit to one. Having them learn the words by rote without teaching the commitment level of making a pledge weakens the pledge itself, and teaches kids that "words are just words".

So when they're older, get married, they'll have the mindset of.. "Oh, so I said a vow about staying faithful.. those were just words, as long as s/he doesn't find out."

Originally posted by Travh20
LOL, I should have known you would be interested in the cheesedick thing, LOL. and no, the picture is of Jim Morrison, you are the 2nd person to think that was jesus.

ha! I nkew it was either Jim Morrisson or Jesus! but now that I think about it, he's too hot to be jesus.

Originally posted by dnamertz
Here is a little test for all of you who think no one should be offended by having their kid sit through a daily pledge to a religious belief they don't believe in....Suppose an atheist teacher started off every class with a pledge that mentioned "God does not exist". Are you going to seriously tell me that would be OK? WTF are you talking about? Every child learns the THEORY of evolution. So, in essense every child in school today IS taught "God does not exist". And it seems like its OK. Everyone who is "affected" by having "under God" in the pledge, choose to be. No other reason. For once, i just wish someone would quit lying. At least just say, " Its my life's duty to see that I do not allow God to exist for anyone since he doesnt exist for me." That is the only honest answer to this. I know a few of you will try to tell me what our forefathers thought while writing the constitution, but the truth is none of you know what they wanted...you can only make assumptions. And of course, your assumptions are going to be properly slanted to fit your views. So save the time and effort, i really dont want to hear it anymore.

HaVoK wrote
Every child learns the THEORY of evolution. So, in essense every child in school today IS taught "God does not exist".

You do realize that the majority of Christians believe God and evolution are not exclusive of each other? The majority of Christians believe in God, and believe the theory of evolution.

Hey, since they're the majority of Christians, maybe they should get the non-evolution crowd to sit down and shut up! Majority Rules after all, right? Or should your (GENERIC YOU) minority opinions against evolution be protected?

(corrected for HaVoK's pleasure)

Originally posted by P Marie C
HaVoK wrote "Every child learns the THEORY of evolution. So, in essense every child in school today IS taught "God does not exist". "

You do realize that the majority of Christians believe God and evolution are not exclusive of each other? The majority of Christians believe in God, and believe the theory of evolution.

Hey, since they're the majority of Christians, maybe they should get the non-evolution crowd to sit down and shut up! Majority Rules after all, right? Or should your minority opinions against evolution be protected? I never expressed ANY opinion for or against evolution. So keep your opinions to yourself or maybe ill come up with some of my own opinions of what you think. I was merely pointing out that the theory of evolution is taught to every school child. If you subscribe to the THEORY of evolution as it is taught, then you cannot believe in a creator. Man, why does everything have to be broken down to you people? Use your heads for somthing other than a freakin hat rack once in a while.

Originally posted by HaVoK
I never expressed ANY opinion for or against evolution. So keep your opinions to yourself or maybe ill come up with some of my own opinions of what you think.

Oops, sorry. The meaning of my post still stands, regardless of your opinion though.

If you subscribe to the THEORY of evolution as it is taught, then you cannot believe in a creator.

Oh, yes you can. The majority of Christians DO. That was my point.

Man, why does everything have to be broken down to you people? Use your heads for somthing other than a freakin hat rack once in a while.

Nice.

Originally posted by P Marie C

Oh, yes you can. The majority of Christians DO. That was my point.
How is it you know what the "majority" of christians believe? I have a belief in evolution to a certain extent and i am a christian. But i have no idea how the "majority" of christians view this. How did you become so enlightened?

Originally posted by HaVoK
How is it you know what the "majority" of christians believe? I have a belief in evolution to a certain extent and i am a christian. But i have no idea how the "majority" of christians view this. How did you become so enlightened?

There is a very vocal minority that believes the Bible is literal. Most denominations of Christianity do not teach that the Bible is literal, that God's "day" was exactly 86,400 seconds long.

And how can you say, "If you subscribe to the THEORY of evolution as it is taught, then you cannot believe in a creator",
and then turn around and say, "I have a belief in evolution to a certain extent and i am a christian."? That just doesn't make sense.

If you cannot see there is a difference between those two statements then you and i should not even attempt to debate. So good day to you.

Originally posted by HaVoK
If you cannot see there is a difference between those two statements then you and i should not even attempt to debate.

:rolleyes:

So good day to you.

Thanks! You have a good day too.;)

some christians believe evolution is just gods plan.

WTF are you talking about? Every child learns the [B]THEORY of evolution. So, in essense every child in school today IS taught "God does not exist".

I know pletny of poeple who beleive in both god and evolution. I don't know about other classes, but in my bio class we are told that evolution is a theory, the most well respected one, but still just a theory. we are also told that personal opinions stay out of science classes, and I haven't heard one mention of spirituality during the discussion of evolution, even though there are some very religious kids in the class.

And it seems like its OK. Everyone who is "affected" by having "under God" in the pledge, choose to be. No other reason. For once, i just wish someone would quit lying. At least just say, " Its my life's duty to see that I do not allow God to exist for anyone since he doesnt exist for me." That is the only honest answer to this.

I don't give a fuck what you beleive, or anyone lese for that matter, and I'd really like it if everyone else did the same. I don't care what other poeple think asl ong as they respect by beleifs, and let me have them in peace. if god makes your life better and being religous enriches your life in some way, then that's your decision, not beleiving in god makes my life beter, and I wnat to be able be godless without feeling like the governemnt doresn't acknowledge my beliefs.

whats so hard to understand? evolution can be gods work. and it is just a theory, bewcasue it cant be proved. you need to relax, its not my fault its just a theory. and whats with the rant, I am not the one trying to change things here, you are. you want god taken out of something, i am not asking to put it in something. chill, stop acting as if the whole world is out ot convert you.

Actually there are plenty of people trying to get the teaching of evolution out of schools, and some have successfully done so in some areas. I don't mind if all the major religions and evolution are taught as different theories about how life began, but that is different than leading the kids in a daily school chant...I don't see this being done with evolution.

Original post by Trav:
you want god taken out of something, i am not asking to put it in something.

But you are asking to leave it in something...something that it was not originally a part of in the first place. If it was OK in your mind to change it once, why is there a problem with changing it again? You say "why are people so offended by having the word God in there". Why are you so offended by not having it in there?

"whats so hard to understand? evolution can be gods work. and it is just a theory, bewcasue it cant be proved. you need to relax, its not my fault its just a theory. and whats with the rant, I am not the one trying to change things here, you are. you want god taken out of something, i am not asking to put it in something. chill, stop acting as if the whole world is out ot convert you."


Trav, is trying to act mature and calm, something he usually does not do. Don't worry his spelling mistakes only grow when he gets "mad".

Originally posted by Overdose
Trav, is trying to act mature and calm, something he usually does not do. Don't worry his spelling mistakes only grow when he gets "mad".
Shut up, we have a calm Trav, and that's a rare thing. We should cherish the moment. :D

Havok, how can you criticize someone for saying they know how the majority of christians think, but then you claim to know that EVERY child is taught evolution in school?

When I think back on my public education, I do not remember learning about evolution, but I do remeber saying the pledge. So, which is a bigger part of a child's public school experience?

Every child is taught miniscule evolution because it happens. But I have never been taught evolution from molecule to human. I got that by reading a book out of class(very good one though, somewhat out of date in areas..."Until the Sun Dies"). I have noticed that my teacher avoids evolution. Mention of it is short and to the specific point.

"Under God": It's pointless. You can't give me a good reason for it to stay. For it to leave, it's faster, removes any arguments against it, follows seperation of church and state, it's relatively new, and it obviously makes people angry.

Originally posted by WhammyBar

I don't give a fuck what you beleive, or anyone lese for that matter, and I'd really like it if everyone else did the same. Another child striking out against oppression by showing that they can use the F-bomb. Where's your mommy at? Does she know you write down these nasty words like this when her back is turned?

evolution, jesus walks on water, the man in moon, santa claus it's all the same stuff.

I think people can buy into evolution and still feel that it's 'Gods Plan' - seems reasonable, afterall most of what people believe is fairy tales anyway - so who cares what they add or subtract from the story.

Wow! I missed a great debate here. What a shame. :( Oh well. I would like to respond to a few things.

First, for those who can't fathom how a person can get by without a reliance on some higher power, I feel the same about you. If I am going through a bad patch, and trust me I've been through many (two attempted suicides, major depression), I work it out on my own. When I was depressed my parents and friends suggested that I should try and find religion. My parents are atheists by the way. I did honestly and sincerely look into it but could not bring myself to believe. I was able to overcome my depression not because "God helped me through it" but because I got my ass in gear and set my life straight. You can't fathom how I can get by without help from a higher power? I can't fathom why intelligent people still feel obligated to subject themselves to this so called higher power.

Second, I was brought up by atheist parents but was raised as if I was a Christian. I was told the story of Jesus as if it were all fact. I was a Christian for most of my life. One thing my parents did that affected my becoming an atheist was that when I asked a question about something I was told to look it up. In doing so I came to see many problems with religion. It wasn't until late in high school that I realized I was an atheist but I finally did. So, being a Christian through much of my schooling I never had a problem saying "under God" with the pledge. While I do find the pledge meaningful now that I understand it I believe "under God" needs to come out of it because it is a form or brainwashing. I also believe that the pledge should be removed from schools for the same reason.

Third, the founding fathers of the U.S. were not Christian. This country was not founded on Christian beliefs. The founding fathers, who were alive during the Enlightenment, were in fact deists. For those that don't know deists believe that God created the earth and hasn't been involved in a way, shape, or form with it since. Other major U.S. historical figures were also not Christian. Abraham Lincoln was actually a communist.

Finally, it has been said that we can't actually know what the writers of the Constitution meant when writing the Bill of Rights. Bullshit. There are many historical documents which state exactly what was thought when the Constitution was written. We can read correspondence between early political figures in which they discuss exactly what they meant. The phrase: separation of church and state actually comes from a treaty signed not long after the Constitution took affect. I don't have the exact letters in front of me at the moment but given time I would be willing to look them up for anyone doubting me.

Originally posted by muad_dib
Abraham Lincoln was actually a communist.


I hate to digress from your point, but what is the basis of this statement? I ask because Abraham died before the idea of a "communist" government was conceived.

Originally posted by muad_dib
Dib, I thought it was a great post but I must disagree with a few points.

Abraham Lincoln was actually a communist.

It would be hard for me to believe that someone who felt strongly enough about democracy to say, "Democracy is the government of the people, by the people, for the people" could be considered a Communist.


The phrase: separation of church and state actually comes from a treaty signed not long after the Constitution took affect. I don't have the exact letters in front of me at the moment but given time I would be willing to look them up for anyone doubting me.

The phrase comes from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802.

http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html

Originally posted by Leper
I hate to digress from your point, but what is the basis of this statement? I ask because Abraham died before the idea of a "communist" government was conceived.

Actually not, the Communist Manifesto was first published in 1848, some 17 years before Lincoln was assasinated. While I don't believe there was a "communist government" before the Russian revolution in 1918, the idea for one was already old by the time it actually came to be.

Thank you Vile for clarifying the source of the separation of church and state.

Also maybe I should change my wording slightly. Abraham Lincoln may not have been a communist but he did in fact have many socialist sympathies.

Originally posted by HaVoK
Another child striking out against oppression by showing that they can use the F-bomb. Where's your mommy at? Does she know you write down these nasty words like this when her back is turned?


my mom likes it that I think for myself and stand up for what I beleive in and doesn't care what kind of language I use in the process. can you come up with an intellectual reply to my actual comments, not my choice of language? and what is your thing with commenting on my mom when I swear?

lordy havok, what's with the sensitivity? virgin ears, eh? ;)

I found a pretty good article relating to this. A quote from the article: "Some of the individuals to whom I am attributing a hostility to religion would resent the allegation deeply. They regard themselves as religion's finest friends. But what kind of friendship for religion is it that insists that the words "under God" have no religious connotation?"

The article, for those interested in reading the whole thing:
http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040412&s=wieseltier041204

I missed this whole exciting debate! Now I sat down and read through all the posts, spent some time thinking about what I'd have said to each one. In the end, comically, my strongest opinion has been influenced by one of DrewM's earlier responses which stated that perhaps the Congress all voted "maintain" to try and get this thing over with is because there are more important things to worry about.

Borg, DrewM, Vile, and several others who strongly feel the phrase or the pledge itself should not be there all have very good points. However I just can't help but remembering that throughout high school (I moved to the States from Taiwan at 9th grade) I really couldn't care less about the whole pledge thing. I did it every morning with everyone and hardly thought about what it has to do with anyone's religious beliefs. Is it just me? I thought just about all students were like that, too--the whole pledge thing being something "you just do" every morning. No one is forced to believe in anything. I'm not saying there is nothing wrong with it, or there is no conflict with the Constitution, or that no one is offended. I'm just saying even if we spend all our time arguing about the merits and pitfalls or this thing, this is not a very important issue as far as effects of change is concerned. Students will go to school and mindlessly recite the thing and forget about it and proceed to their day, while adults examine the new pledge scrupulously to find something to pit one group against another group politically or religiously.

The reason is because it is more than mindless. You have it memorized, do you not? You've said it so often it has become ingrained into your head. It is a psychological problem, you may not think the words have any meaning since you say it "mindlessly", but your mind thinks differently. Anything it can use to process logic it uses, and something that is that ingrained in your head is bound to be used. People spew rhetoric all the time, what they were told when they were little, does not mean that they ever bothered to understand that certain thing, but they'll spew it later if their mind deems it appropriate for the thing at hand. For example "Communism will never work"(:D). Do you have any logic behind that other than you have heard it about a trillion times? Or, McDonalds! People who have never gone to that place in their life still know about it, they know what a Big Mac is. People know Coca Cola. All of these things. You may not actively think of it logically, but your subconcience does. It is a very important thing, the fact that it is in there, becaue people say it everywhere in the United States, they are getting this rhetoric and having it ground into their minds. Another example, I'm an athiest, yet I say "god" all the time, I curse with "God dammit" often. I'm an athiest, yet I grew up in a Christian household. I was told about god, yet never given any logic. I was told he existed, yet never told why. It was rhetoric that I swallowed, and it will haunt me for the rest of my life.

the presenceo f god in the pledge is a symptom, not the actual problem. why is it there? because our government is intolernt of athiests. becasue we don't actually have seperatrion of church and state in this country. the inclusion of god in the pledge is becasue of these things, which are a pretty big deal, considering it's violating the constitution. if we really created seperation of church and state in this country, the under god in the pledge would be gone very quickly.
another thing to think about. why do we have public schools in this country? why do we bother spending the money? just think of the way students memorize the pledge and recite it every morning, mindlessly. what does that teach you? basically just to obey authority and do what others are doing for the sake of comfort. public schools teach kids to think a certain way. I'mnot saying this in a conspiracy theory kind of way, but the method used to teach kids subject matter is also used to used to get them to be able to function in an extremely standardized environment. the structure of our society requires people to think that way, and school teached us how.