There are a lot of threads in this forum that have discussions about the topic of abortion. I've heard arguements for and against abortion of every kind, i believe. However, i never see anyone talk about how the abortion may affect the potential father.

Where are the fathers rights? If an abortion is perfromed either against his wishes, or without his prior knowledge, this is a very severe emotional blow for him.

Before we start any debate here, i would like to say that i am for abortion in any case where the mother would be killed delivering the baby, or if the baby were going to be born with severe physical and/or mental defects that would not allow him/her to function in the world. And, of course, if the mother were raped, because the emtional distress this may cause to the mother is just as valid as potential physical pain and suffering.

It's a valid question and not one that's easily answered. The truth is that it's one of those areas, like euthanasia, where medical science has moved beyond medical ethics. The decision to abort a child is a difficult one to begin with, and certainly in any relationship his desires should be taken into account. The question is how much?

I'm assuming for the sake of this argument that the reasons for the abortion are sound and that the abortion is neccessary for one reason or another. However much I may want to say, as a man, that the father has as much right to make the decision either to abort or not, it is the woman who must assume all the potential health risks and therefore I believe that ultimately she must have the final decision making power. The mother and father both have an equal emotional stake in the baby but the mother's life and physical health may also be at risk. Since I believe that no one should be able to gamble with another persons life or health, I have to say that the mothers' rights are paramount.

I do think that in the case of a woman having an abortion either against the father's wishes, or without his knowledge, that it would constitute grounds for divorce.

100% agree with vilepagan.

I have to disagree slightly. If the mother wants to keep the child, but the father doesn't, then they should have equal rights, or it should lean to the abortion side. If it is not alive yet, then the situation of an unwanted/fatherless child would probably occur if they went through and had a child. Not only that, but the father has to pay child support as well.

If the father wants the child, but the mother does not, then the mother should have the final say in the matter, because she is the one who would have to go through pregnancy.

The man loses, if the mom wants baby X, and dad doesn't he is still stuck with paying. If dad wants baby X and mom doesn't then tough sh**, he doesn't have a say. It is correct that the woman is the one that goes through the physical changes, but should a man have to flip the bill if he doesn't want a baby? If a woman decides to keep the baby should the man be forced to pay even if he didn't want the baby from the beganing? Now I know the old answer don't play if.....blah, blah, blah. This still doesn't change the fact that the mans rights don't mean sh** when it comes to baby time.

Originally posted by WindWip
I have to disagree slightly. If the mother wants to keep the child, but the father doesn't, then they should have equal rights, or it should lean to the abortion side. If it is not alive yet, then the situation of an unwanted/fatherless child would probably occur if they went through and had a child. Not only that, but the father has to pay child support as well.

If the father wants the child, but the mother does not, then the mother should have the final say in the matter, because she is the one who would have to go through pregnancy.

I can understand the man's desire to not be forced to be the father of an unwanted child, but the bottom line is, if he didn't want a child he should have worn a condom. First of all, I don't agree with using abortion as a form of birth control, my original point was made with the idea that the abortion was a neccessary one not a voluntary one. Secondly, not only does the woman face all the medical consequences of carrying the child to term, she also faces all the medical consequences of having an abortion. There is no ethical way, in this case, to force a woman to undergo a medical procedure against her will. I don't think that growing up fatherless is worse than not growing up at all, and potential financial hardship for the father is not sufficient reason to force a woman to give up a wanted child either. I repeat, if dad doesn't want to pay child support, he should invest in a box of Trojans.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
I can understand the man's desire to not be forced to be the father of an unwanted child, but the bottom line is, if he didn't want a child he should have worn a condom. First of all, I don't agree with using abortion as a form of birth control, my original point was made with the idea that the abortion was a neccessary one not a voluntary one. Secondly, not only does the woman face all the medical consequences of carrying the child to term, she also faces all the medical consequences of having an abortion. There is no ethical way, in this case, to force a woman to undergo a medical procedure against her will. I don't think that growing up fatherless is worse than not growing up at all, and potential financial hardship for the father is not sufficient reason to force a woman to give up a wanted child either. I repeat, if dad doesn't want to pay child support, he should invest in a box of Trojans.

A) It's common knowledge (or it should be) that condoms, or any form of birth control for that matter, aren't always effective (90% effective is the number I've seen).

B) Your argument is just as applicable to mothers as it is fathers. For example, she should have used a diaphram!

C) I think Windwip has a good point. I refer to the case where the father doesn't want the child but the mother does. Although I agree that the father should not be able to dictate the mother's decision, I DON'T think that fathers should have to pay child support in such a case.

Do you see the double standard here? The father has no say so in the abortion, but the mother can force the father to pay child support. I think this is an injustice in our society.

Originally posted by Leper
A) It's common knowledge (or it should be) that condoms, or any form of birth control for that matter, aren't always effective (90% effective is the number I've seen).

I believe the percentage is much higher than 90% for condoms.

B) Your argument is just as applicable to mothers as it is fathers. For example, she should have used a diaphram!

Of course if we're talking about the mother not wanting to have a child and the father wanting a child, then yes, the burden of birth control falls on her.

C) I think Windwip has a good point. I refer to the case where the father doesn't want the child but the mother does. Although I agree that the father should not be able to dictate the mother's decision, I DON'T think that fathers should have to pay child support in such a case.

Neither do I, but it's a little difficult for the father to make his case after the child has already been conceived. The judge will ask the father why he didn't use a condom, or better yet, why did they engage in intercourse in the first place.

Do you see the double standard here? The father has no say so in the abortion, but the mother can force the father to pay child support. I think this is an injustice in our society.

There will be different rules applied in a case like this simply because of the biological differences between the sexes. Males and females share equal responsibility for the conception of a child, but it is the woman who bears the buden after conception, and thus deserves more protection from the law. No double standard exists in my opinion.

I think that, if there is some sort of relationship between the parents, then the mother and father have to seriously discuss the whole thing before an abortion happens. both people opinions and rights should be takne into consideration. despite this, the women should have the ultimate and ifnal decision as to what to do with the prgnancy, becasue it is her body, and she is the noe dealing with the physical aspect of it. but I think it would be the right thing to consider the guys ideas on the subject as well, of cours,e both parents should take responsibilty after the child was born, no matter who wanted it or didn't. i takes two people to make a baby, and both people need to realize that and take responsibilty for thei actions.

How many participants in this thread have given birth?





I'm only curious.........:D

I may not have given birth, but I have a big gut. Of course it's not fat, it's a ball bearing on a love makin machine :D :D

Originally posted by creetwins
How many participants in this thread have given birth?
Not trying to be a smart ass with this response, but i only wanted opinions on a fathers perspective. Since fathers cannot physically give birth, i dont believe your question is valid to this thread.

Originally posted by HaVoK
Not trying to be a smart ass with this response, but i only wanted opinions on a fathers perspective. Since fathers cannot physically give birth, i dont believe your question is valid to this thread.

Well...I'm not a father, nor am I likely to be one, so perhaps you didn't want my perspective either...

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Well...I'm not a father, nor am I likely to be one, so perhaps you didn't want my perspective either... Well, if you ask questions like creetwins then no, i wouldnt want your perspective either. I just wanted opinions on what rights or lack thereof the men have in making decisions on the life of their child. I dont need anyone asking me if i have ever physically had a child. Thats all i was saying.

Not trying to be a smart ass with this response, but i only wanted opinions on a fathers perspective. Since fathers cannot physically give birth, i dont believe your question is valid to this thread.

Maybe before you jump on me you'd let me make a point.......

I had different opinions before I became a parent. High risk pregnancy, preterm labor, and 2.5 month premature babies have altered my point of view a bit. I was only asking out of curiosity if anyone here had given birth.

I do beleive fathers have a right and play a part in decision making, meaning their feelings should be taken into account, however ultimately it is the womans choice, since usually she is the primary source of care (and food) for the baby after birth.

Also, most of the time when a woman is faced with this decision the father is nowhere in sight. Not always but usually.


Well, if you ask questions like creetwins then no, i wouldnt want your perspective either.

Before you decide whethere you want my perspective or not, maybe you should have an open mind as to what it might be first!!! There was a legitimate point to my question, I was only curious if there were any other people involved who had given birth. Since I seem to be the only one, I guess I must represent that view point, but it seems you don't want a mother's opinion....It seems.

Originally posted by creetwins

Before you decide whethere you want my perspective or not, maybe you should have an open mind as to what it might be first!!! There was a legitimate point to my question, I was only curious if there were any other people involved who had given birth. Since I seem to be the only one, I guess I must represent that view point, but it seems you don't want a mother's opinion....It seems. I should have explained myself better. Hope this makes more sense and doesnt seem so negative to you. I meant to say that IMO the woman's perspective in child social/welfare cases is always first and foremost. In this particular thread i just wanted to see what people think about the fathers rights/lack thereof and feelings regarding this issue. I did not intend to disregard your perpective even tho that was the result. Im just interested in people exchanging ideas on whether the male deserves to have consideration when making these choices and to what extent these considerations should be, in peoples opinion.

So, i didnt know if you were just trying to spam my thread with the question you put forth to a bunch of men who responded. Sure seemed that way to me. The only female that responded was a 14 year old high schooler and since she has never talked about having a child i think it is a safe assumption that she has not had a child.

Sorry if my question came across as smart. I was curious if there were any other mothers' opinions on this. A reason I ask is this. Before giving birth my opinion was different. "It's my body, it's my decision, who cares what he thinks" After all the high intensity drama of my pregnancy and early birth, my opinion changed. The father of my children changed my opinion. His fear for the babies and I, his concern and total emotional involvement, and feelings of helplessness in a situation he had little control over. It made me realize that his emotioal investment was equal to mine, with the only difference being I had all the physical investment. Soooo, I would consider his feelings and opinions valid if I were in the difficult position of making the decision. Thanks for letting me share:)

Originally posted by creetwins
Sorry if my question came across as smart. I was curious if there were any other mothers' opinions on this. A reason I ask is this. Before giving birth my opinion was different. "It's my body, it's my decision, who cares what he thinks" After all the high intensity drama of my pregnancy and early birth, my opinion changed. The father of my children changed my opinion. His fear for the babies and I, his concern and total emotional involvement, and feelings of helplessness in a situation he had little control over. It made me realize that his emotioal investment was equal to mine, with the only difference being I had all the physical investment. Soooo, I would consider his feelings and opinions valid if I were in the difficult position of making the decision. Thanks for letting me share:) Great post!! And that was exactly the perspective i was coming from having been on the wrong side of an abortion. I was totally helpless and had no input whatsoever and it was an extremely emotional and hurtful time in my life. . Thank you for sharing.

Wow that's tough. I was speachless for a while there. This post drew my eye because it is an intersesting "silent" perspective. When I say that I mean it is like a stifled or buried aspect to the story usually. Meaning you hear little about the flip side to the coin in most media coverage. In woman's magazines a lot too. It is always a one dimensional angle. So I am glad you brought it up because in many ways it is an equal issue with both members, with the complicated twist of two people being emotionally contained with what is happening inside one of the members physical being. Very intricate emotional web.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vilepagan
I believe the percentage is much higher than 90% for condoms.

First credible website I found: the University of Georgia Health Center, says 95 % for perfect use, 86% for perfect use. I stand by my statistic, which I remember as being for typical use (perfect and imperfect averaged together)

http://www.uhs.uga.edu/sexualhealth/all/effectiveness.html


Of course if we're talking about the mother not wanting to have a child and the father wanting a child, then yes, the burden of birth control falls on her.

Point conceded.


Neither do I, but it's a little difficult for the father to make his case after the child has already been conceived. The judge will ask the father why he didn't use a condom, or better yet, why did they engage in intercourse in the first place.

True, of course such a question is loaded since most people don't sit down and rationally weigh the pros and cons of intercourse. Whether to have sex is not a logical thought process, otherwise abortion would not be such a common/necessary procedure.


There will be different rules applied in a case like this simply because of the biological differences between the sexes. Males and females share equal responsibility for the conception of a child, but it is the woman who bears the buden after conception, and thus deserves more protection from the law. No double standard exists in my opinion.

But the law places a mandatory burden on men AFTER birth, while the woman's prenatal burden is legally optional. Also, the woman's optional burden lasts nine months, while the man's mandatory burden lasts 18 years. I think men should have more options.

However, if men were granted the option to have his child support waived in the case of an unwanted pregnancy, I would like to see a rule set up that makes the father provide financing for an abortion in order to receive his waiver.

But the law places a mandatory burden on men AFTER birth, while the woman's prenatal burden is legally optional. Also, the woman's optional burden lasts nine months, while the man's mandatory burden lasts 18 years. I think men should have more options.

Usually, the mothers "burden" lasts the rest of her natural lifetime. And there are options for the man. Sign over all parental rights, and never see the child again.

Originally posted by creetwins
Usually, the mothers "burden" lasts the rest of her natural lifetime. And there are options for the man. Sign over all parental rights, and never see the child again.

Mothers can "sign over all parental rights, and never see the child again" too. It's called adoption and our country demands more of this.

Adoption is a nice idea. But try to carry a child for nine months, then give it away, lots of women change their mind after giving birth. Also, there are already so many unwanted children needing adoptive parents already.

creetwins, thats why I say taht most of the women who get abortions have never had a baby before, and elt the joy of a baby growing inside tehm ,and holding the baby and watching it grow.

I think men should have more options.


Somehow this discussion went from a man's rights in determining whether his female partner was going to have an abortion or not, to a discussion of why men shouldn't be forced to take responsibility for a pregnancy.

At the beginning of this thread I said that I don't believe that abortion should be used as a form of birth control. Men have several options to avoid becoming a father against their will.

1. Communicate with your partner. The choice to have a child or not should be made together, and both partners should not engage in intercourse unless there is a level of trust between them regarding the desire to have children.

2. Use contraceptives. Not just a condom, but a condom and a diapragm and oral contraceptives together. I suspect that even if there is a 90% failure rate with just condoms, if used together with other forms of contraception the success rate in preventing pregnancy greatly improves. Another option for men is to have a vasectomy.

3. Don't have intercourse. Trust me, oral sex can be fun too. Experiment with other forms of sexual gratification.

The bottom line is that the law can only go so far to protect us from our own mistakes. At some point we have to be willing to take responsibility for our own actions and not rely on the law to bail us out. In addition there is a certain presumption under the law that when we engage in certain behaviors, and we know what the consequences can be, we are responsible for the consequences even if they are unintended.

When a man goes into a bank with a gun, intending only to rob the bank, and when the security guard shoots at the robber, the robber cannot claim self-defense when he kills the security guard. The robber will be charged with murder, even though his intent was only to rob. So, if you take your "gun" out of its holster and take it into a woman's "bank", when that "gun" goes off the result is equally your responsibility.

creetwins, thats why I say taht most of the women who get abortions have never had a baby before, and elt the joy of a baby growing inside tehm ,and holding the baby and watching it grow.

I think you are right about that too.

{caution sensitive personal info}
I know it. I was that girl. And now I know I could never do it again unless someone was gonna die. Even if that baby was going to have a disability, cause I know first hand too about parenting a special needs child, and I know she was given to me for important reasons. 10 years later and that guilt still feels brand new.

So, if you take your "gun" out of its holster and take it into a woman's "bank", when that "gun" goes off the result is equally your responsibility.

VP you hit it right on the nose here. People have to remember when they copulate the likely and desired result is babies. Conceiving doesn't take planning ahead, but recreational sex has to. Nature made it that way. It doesn't take much to get pregnant, some girls get knocked up if you look at them funny!! I know so many girls that get pregnant every year for years!!!

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Somehow this discussion went from a man's rights in determining whether his female partner was going to have an abortion or not, to a discussion of why men shouldn't be forced to take responsibility for a pregnancy.

I don't think so, we are trying to figure away for both people, man & woman to walk away with the same rights.

At the beginning of this thread I said that I don't believe that abortion should be used as a form of birth control. Men have several options to avoid becoming a father against their will.

And the same can be said about women, but it still does not take away the "FACT" that sh** happens.

1. Communicate with your partner. The choice to have a child or not should be made together, and both partners should not engage in intercourse unless there is a level of trust between them regarding the desire to have children.

I do agree, but then again we don't live in "the Land Of Perfect". once again sh** does happen and it happens all the time.

2. Use contraceptives. Not just a condom, but a condom and a diapragm and oral contraceptives together. I suspect that even if there is a 90% failure rate with just condoms, if used together with other forms of contraception the success rate in preventing pregnancy greatly improves. Another option for men is to have a vasectomy.

So the guy has a vasectomy at age 18 because he wanted to get his noddle wet, now he grows up and relizes he wants kids, plus who is going to flip the bill?. Once again you act like this is the land of perfect, but it is FAR from it. Take a look at teenage pregnancy, and we all know teenagers allways think before they act :)

3. Don't have intercourse. Trust me, oral sex can be fun too. Experiment with other forms of sexual gratification.

Maybe your lifestyle is different from others, I have met people that think oral sex is disgusting???

The bottom line is that the law can only go so far to protect us from our own mistakes. At some point we have to be willing to take responsibility for our own actions and not rely on the law to bail us out. In addition there is a certain presumption under the law that when we engage in certain behaviors, and we know what the consequences can be, we are responsible for the consequences even if they are unintended.

This is the purpose of this thread when does the law help the man. The woman 90% of the time has the final say no matter what the male wants.

When a man goes into a bank with a gun, intending only to rob the bank, and when the security guard shoots at the robber, the robber cannot claim self-defense when he kills the security guard. The robber will be charged with murder, even though his intent was only to rob. So, if you take your "gun" out of its holster and take it into a woman's "bank", when that "gun" goes off the result is equally your responsibility.

So the woman is totally innocent, she didn't have anything to do with the sexual part? We are not talking about rape we are talking about two folks "doing it". How many women are just as careless as men?

I do agree with your post, but we still have the problem of mistakes, and there are many made everyday. When does, or how does, the male get equal treatment when it comes to "baby time"?

Consider that the father's part in the creation of the child is over in give or take 10 minutes, and the mother must carry the child for 9 months before giving birth in what will be likely the most painful experience of her life, I don't see how anyone could argue that the father has done just as much in the creation of the child as the mother.

I believe that the final decision on whether or not to carry through with an abortion rests entirely with the mother, because it is her body that will have to endure the child for almost a year, and if she is not emotionally or physically ready for the child, the father should not be able to override her decision.

Sure, one might argue that there are caring fathers out there who love their child from the beginning of its conception, but how are the courts to distinguish between a deadbeat dad and a caring father? The fact is, the courts can't make such a decision without opening the way for thousands of cases in which a father seems to be neither caring nor deadbeat but in between, clogging up the already full judicial system. There is no black and white method of labelling a "good" dad from a "bad" dad, so why start such a mess?

Also, for those who think that it is only the father who has to pay child support, perhaps you're forgetting that the mother is also responsible for what is almost always the majority of her child's expenses. Don't think that the courts wouldn't force an absent mother to pay child support if she let the father take in her child, because the courts will force the mother or father of a child to pay child support if so required.

Ultimately, the mother sould have the final word over how HER body, (emphasis on HER body, not HIS) will be used. Can a mother ever force a father who could be a kidney donor for his child to do so if he does not want to? Of course not, so why should the mother have any fewer rights than the father?

Somewhere in the shades of gray, it seems like a father should have rights about abortions, but I believe the mother has the right to make the decision.