This one has been irking me for some time. Havn't we concluded that racism bad? And isn't affirmative action just racism in the other direction? How does this stupid bill stay alive? The better qualified person for a job SHOULD get the job.

Yep. It's the single biggest hypocrisy of our times.

it doesnt matter, the lefts whole vision of the future is based on hypocrisy, and fucking one group over to give another what they want. when has looking like a hypocit ever stopped a liberal from saying or doing anything?

It does seem to me that both liberals and conservatives are becoming more and more polarized in their thoughts and deeds. Seems to me that is exactly what these politicians want us to do. Keep fighting amongst ourselves so that their nefarious deeds remain undiscovered.

maybe we need 2 countries. all the leftists can move east of the missisippi and the conservatives can move west of the missisippi. it would be interesting to see the difference between teh 2 10 years later.

Sure thing -- let it boil down to the best qualified person *ALWAYS* gets the job. That would mean whites would get 100% of the jobs. Whites have higher educations and a leg up right out of the starting gate. That would leave the non-whites no choice but to make a living robbing your house, holding you up and mugging old ladies. Then you can complain they should get a job. Geeesh ... talk about circular reasoning or better yet a circle jerk.

AA isn't easy to understand but it certainly can't boil down to as simple a statement as reverse discrimination and 'let the best man win'.

Dop

Your making quite a generalization and asians study harder and are smarter, so we should give everyone else cheaper education right? What about all Irish being alchoholics. All gays are better dressers and they all act fruity. All Irish are alcoholics. All hicks are republicans. The midwest is all fat and racist. The list goes on. Come on, all of those are just as bad as your generalization.

We have public education, if a person succeeds enough in school then they can get a higher education on scholarships NO MATTER THEIR RACE.

The fact is that AA is descriminating against whites. That is racism no matter how you twist it.

so you agree that two wrongs make a right dop? one group was discriminated against, so to make it even we will discriminate agaisnt another group?

You think the only recourse would be crime? Even stupid people can get a job. McDonalds, J in the Box, Burger King all are willing to hire stupid people.

Wow, I think this is the first time I've been arguing on the same side as you Travh.

Originally posted by Travh20
maybe we need 2 countries. all the leftists can move east of the missisippi and the conservatives can move west of the missisippi.

How would we keep all of the hippies out of California? :) It might be easier to go the other way around.

no way, it was my idea, and we get the good half

Originally posted by HaVoK
It does seem to me that both liberals and conservatives are becoming more and more polarized in their thoughts and deeds. Seems to me that is exactly what these politicians want us to do. Keep fighting amongst ourselves so that their nefarious deeds remain undiscovered.

BINGO!! 50% of stocks in this country are controlled by 1% of the population.

Affirmative action works, it helps people who normally don't have equal opportunity access to jobs that can help them in their community.

It helps women more then any other group. It does not hurt white men.

White men still hold the majority of wealth in this country; white men still make more per dollar then any other group in the world. White men still hold the majority of offices in this country (women only hold about 13% nationally, despite being 51% of the population.) So where is all this reverse discrimination? Where are white men suffering?

When you have white skin, you will be treated differently then others. I'm not saying racism is as rampant as it was in the 50's and 60's, but it has not gone away. And while people have the belief that things should be more equal, reality does not paint the same picture.

Stupid jobs? Look at the department of labor website, the fastest growing job sector is service jobs, these same stupid jobs you find at McDonalds, etc. When the computer jobs dry up, be prepared to service someone else. These jobs inherently suck, and are found in more depressed areas of the country (fast food = cheap food) it afflicts all people across the race board, but minorities disproportionately.

I guess you have never heard of one case of a more qualified white man getting passed over to fulfil some government madated quota? selective hearing seems to also be a liberal trait, along with selective memory.

Originally posted by Travh20
I guess you have never heard of one case of a more qualified white man getting passed over to fulfil some government madated quota? selective hearing seems to also be a liberal trait, along with selective memory.

No i haven't, prove to me this happens in a statistically significant number.

There are always injustice in the system, but when I look at the system, I don't see the white guy on the bottom.... do you?

I never said he was. I said the system is unfair. It was unfair in the past and they only reversed the roles now

How has it reversed the roles? Where are whites on the bottom?

No, whites were not on the bottom. Do you get a kick out of me saying that?

I referred to the system not the current state. The system is unjust towards whites now as it was unjust towards those of color in the recent past.

2 wrongs make a right in this case guess.

There is no comparing the injustice to blacks of years ago and the injustice of whites today until you see whites hanging from tree limbs.

I remember the days when blacks couldn't sit at a counter with a white, and a black sat in the back of the bus and blacks were beaten to death or hung from a tree limb for looking at a white girl.

You had to live it to understand. All you youngin's don't have a mofo clue.

Dop

Whites aren't discriminated against. Not really.

I don't want anyone to say anything, but I would like people to understand that there is a level of privilage being white in the United States, especially being a white male.

We like things that are similar to us no? I find myself attracted to things from New York, hey I lived there for over 28 years. I may find some special treatment to New Yorkers that I wouldn't give to people from other parts of the country.

Why is it so hard to believe the same thing would work for whites, ESPECIALLY since they hold so much of the power. It isn't always done on purpose, our mind and perceptions work in much more subtle ways.

There is a story of a conductor who was hiring musicians for a symphony. Now the symphony was overwhelmingly male. WHen women came to try out they would almost always be refused. It wasn't until they put a screen up to hide the musician did you see an increase in women in the symphony. Of course it didn't stop there, the conductor could hear the high heals as the women approached the stage, so women had to further trick them by taking their shoes off. This is how much we are influenced by our surroundings.

I see affermative action as one way to overcome these influences, which are not inherently racists, but over a long period of time present that perception.

Im not comparing injustices. If you were paying attention to my posts, you would realize that I am comparing the system. It is unjust NOW. To reconcile the prior injustice by being injust is hypocritical.

I am not arguing the treatment of blacks in the past or presently, that is a seperate issue. Though AA did come from that treatment, the argument I am presenting does not concern that. I am concerned over the current racism that the government is implementing. I don't care if on average a black person needs a job more.

What ever happened to "all men are created equal" and all of MLK. He was preaching for equality, which we do not have now.

We don't have equality because people aren't getting equal access to jobs, to education, to health care to nutritional diets, these things have a long term effect of keeping people under.

All people are created equal, not just men, yet women still make 75 cents to a man's dollar.

"Whenever this issue of compensatory or preferential treatment for the Negro is raised, some of our friends recoil in horror. The Negro should be granted equality, they agree, but he should ask for nothing more. On the surface, this appears reasonable, but it is not realistic. For it is obvious that if a man enters the starting line of a race three hundred years after another man, the first would have to perform some incredible feat in order to catch up."
Martin Luther King Jr.

Originally posted by Pepper
We like things that are similar to us no? I find myself attracted to things from New York, hey I lived there for over 28 years. I may find some special treatment to New Yorkers that I wouldn't give to people from other parts of the country.

Out of curiosity, has anyone here ever had to do any hiring?

I was in a slightly different situation than your average job interview, where you have one spot to fill. I was hiring for a lot of openings and while we were being selective, we did have more openings than candidates. Maybe it's just me, but I was always very paranoid about being accused of racism in the hiring process. Ultimately, I didn't hire any blacks that didn't meet the criteria we were looking for, but honestly, when it could go either way, I usually came down on the side of making a job offer to blacks, whereas for whites it was probably more of a 50/50 proposition.

I'm not trying to make some grand point here, but it's pretty easy to think you know how the biases of the interviewer work when you've never done it.

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing


You had to live it to understand. All you youngin's don't have a mofo clue.



Exactly! I had nothing to do with past discrimination, yet I'm being discriminated against in retaliation for past discrimination. You old guys have no clue what us "youngin's" are dealing with! We work hard, don't discriminate, but are treated differently based on our race.

Oh, us old guys don't work hard? LMAO.

I was responding to the post that implied the whites are receiving injustices the same as the blacks did years ago and simply pointing out that you can't parallel the two -- one was much worse than the other. Apples and oranges.

I never said that affirmative action is the answer.

Dop

Windwip

The seemingly unjust system against the white man today is not called racism. It's called 'PAY-BACK' for what our grand parents and great grand parents did years ago.

I do not mean to say you will hear it said that way on TV or in the media but that's what it is nonetheless.

The sooner you reconcile that fact and realize AA ain't going away (short of a civil war or genocide) the sooner you'll sleep better.

Dop

Its called "pay-back"? Giving prefrence to one race over another is still racism. Will you at least admit that?

We have racist individuals in the US and they keep racism alive, but our government should not be one of those, NO MATTER which side it takes.

We don't have equality because people aren't getting equal access to jobs, to education, to health care to nutritional diets, these things have a long term effect of keeping people under.
Are any of these because of the government today? No, they are because of racism that individuals have towards people of different color.
If we are in agreement that the racism that happened years ago was bad, then why do we have government enforced bill that keeps racism alive?

All people are created equal, not just men, yet women still make 75 cents to a man's dollar.
Man - 1 An adult male human.
2 A human regardless of sex or age; a person.
Those are the first two definitions of man, alright.

So are you trying to say that we should add women to AA?

Women have been the biggest benefit of Afferimative action in the country. Women used to make much less, and let me clarify by saying white women. Black women still only make around $.55 to a white MALE dollar.

A study was done where children were asked to draw cavemen they draw males.

When the same children were asked to draw cavepeople, they drew, men, they drew women and they drew children.

There is a difference in language. Man kind is often used to encompass all people. There are many better words to do that without excluding other the other gender.

Have you ever read instructions when every reference to a person is he, him, his, I find it to be very disjointed. One usually sees this type of writing in older books. Governments do recognize there is a difference in gender language, New York voted to have all male references in their constitution changed to non gender specific language.

When I say man, I mean male, it is what I always mean. Sorry if there was any confusion.

windwip -- to me, racism implies some level of hatred. I'm not convinced that every black, hispanic, asian, native american or woman that gets a leg up using AA hates me.

I would rather think they are just enjoying the spoils of the AA program and that's all there is to it. If you had an edge wouldn't you use it to get ahead?

Dop

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
There is no comparing the injustice to blacks of years ago and the injustice of whites today until you see whites hanging from tree limbs.

I remember the days when blacks couldn't sit at a counter with a white, and a black sat in the back of the bus and blacks were beaten to death or hung from a tree limb for looking at a white girl.

You had to live it to understand. All you youngin's don't have a mofo clue.

Dop

dont tell the gay mariage crowd this or you may find yourself swinginf from a tree

Racism - Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Before we argue if racism is happening or not, I guess you need to understand what racism is. Hate crimes are not always racism and vice versa.

I would rather think they are just enjoying the spoils of the AA program and that's all there is to it. If you had an edge wouldn't you use it to get ahead?
Course I would. But your missing the point of if it's right or wrong. The people aren't wrong for taking what they can from the program, the program itself is wrong.

Originally posted by WindWip
Racism - Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Before we argue if racism is happening or not, I guess you need to understand what racism is. Hate crimes are not always racism and vice versa.


Course I would. But your missing the point of if it's right or wrong. The people aren't wrong for taking what they can from the program, the program itself is wrong.

Thank you for making sense again, Windwip.

No matter how you cut it, the bottomline is that, when you implement affirmative action in college settings, you're saying blacks and Hispanics don't have to know as much or do as well in school to be given a chance.

the only real solution to this, and frankly, amny of the world's problems, is quality education. yes, techincally anyone can go to public school and do well, but nobody does anything to help the kids who aren't as motivated, or lucky to have parents who help them, or even a stable home that's condusive to learning in. public schools in this country suck. I know it, I go to one. there are loads of teachers who don't give a crap, can't teach, along with some truly stupid ones. if everyone got a good education in this country there would be no need for affirmative action (not that I think it's a good thing in the first place) becasue everyone would be qualified for better jobs. it's as simple as that. unfortuntely, this would also result in our upper class falling from their status becasue out capitalist system would collapse for lack of exploited low wage workers to do things like work at McDonalds. so it's not going to happen, and affirmative action will stay as a way of covering up the government's and society at large's corruption and deception of the peole in this country, and the world.

hah, I like it Whammy! It's always fun to read your posts because it stirs up everyone and gets em all frantic. I agree with you on the public education, it really does suck. Your going to find that a lot of the college classes you end up taking will be crap too. At least in my college. Though I don't understand how AA covers up corruption.

Glad that I'm making sense to someone here Leper :)

Originally posted by Leper


No matter how you cut it, the bottomline is that, when you implement affirmative action in college settings, you're saying blacks and Hispanics don't have to know as much or do as well in school to be given a chance.

Race is just ONE aspect of a person's admission. It is not the sole reason a person is accepted in a university. Volunteering, working, afterschool activities, grades, SAT's, languages, sports, projects etc, are all part of the decision making process in accepting a student. Race is just one (rather small) element of the process. Is it discrimination against students who didn't have all of those opportunities?

Affirmative action brings diversity to schools and allows people who may not normaly interact with blacks, or whites, or asians or hispanics, to do so. Overcoming discrimination (which is much more prevelent then racism) happens when people interact with others who appear different from them.

colleges may have a lot of differnet races, but they are the not toghether in any sense of the word, and it is usually very divided and often very tense. the only places I have been were all races get along withouth being aware of the race of the others is in religious services and combat units. in colleges, the pressure is on to recognize that you are with other races, more so than accepting the other races as jsut regular people. it is all very forced and very fake. it seems the real goal is to be able to put that you attended a diverse college on your resume, and the proverbial "one of my best friends was_____ (fil in the blank)" claim to try and legitimize your race based arguments, such as why affeermative action is a good thing

Race is just ONE aspect of a person's admission.
And it shouldn't be.

I don't care if it is the smallest significance for a person to get into college, if the government supports AA, it is supporting racism.

it should be completely irrelevent what race a person is. everyone should be accpeted based on their motivation and intellegence. nothing else matters. no matter how much money a kids parents give to the school, or how underpriveleged they were, if they deserve to be in the school they should be, and if not, they shouldn't be accepted, there's no logical reason to ever bring race into it.

Originally posted by WindWip
hah, I like it Whammy! It's always fun to read your posts because it stirs up everyone and gets em all frantic.

thank you :) stirring people up is my specialty. just ask my old principal :D

it should be completely irrelevent what race a person is. everyone should be accpeted based on their motivation and intellegence. nothing else matters.
I think we should chop down the whole motivation aspect, I "want" to go to college, thats the only way you can get a job anymore, show that you were able to endure at least four years of brain cell murder.

Now then, due to my boredom, I'll stand on the side of Affirmative Action. Not saying I completely agree with it...

Whammy, being a socialist you should understand the social aspects of this. Affirmative Action was put in place to allow those who are less fortunate get through, regardless of how intelligent they are. Unfortunately, there is a direct corrolation between race and poverty, those living under poor conditions do poor in school.

That is for a number of reasons, they see poverty all around them, and subject themselves to it, just by giving up. Their families can't afford to purchase books, things for them to read, to learn. They have to take up a job at a young age to help bring in money to help their families eat. They don't have time for school, they are to buisy trying to feed the family. Thus they end up doing poorly, and don't have less of a chance to get into college.

Which is where affirmative action comes in, it gives them a seat first, because there are fewer of them attempting to get in. That is also why there are more scholarships for the minorities.

Although Affirmative Action has not fixed everything, it has given the priority to those who are less fortunate, for that is the way society can grow.

Originally posted by Blibblob
[b]
Whammy, being a socialist you should understand the social aspects of this. Affirmative Action was put in place to allow those who are less fortunate get through, regardless of how intelligent they are. Unfortunately, there is a direct corrolation between race and poverty, those living under poor conditions do poor in school.

That is for a number of reasons, they see poverty all around them, and subject themselves to it, just by giving up. Their families can't afford to purchase books, things for them to read, to learn. They have to take up a job at a young age to help bring in money to help their families eat. They don't have time for school, they are to buisy trying to feed the family. Thus they end up doing poorly, and don't have less of a chance to get into college.




It's the job of schools to reach out to kids whose families can't or won't give them what they need to do well in school. I see kids who live like this everyday, and if their conditions are that bad they will almsot always drop out before they can even think of college. that can't be fixed with affirmative action. once kids to apply to colleges they should be judged on how msart and motivated they are. that's it. there's no reason that poor kids can't be smart and motivated. I think it's unwise for schools to judge people based solely on test scores or the kind of courses that their school offered and that they were forced to take. people in bad situations can go to college if they want to, and if their schools help them achieve theuir goals. affirmative action won't solve the problems that our schools and society in general have, and it's a ery small prt of the bigger picture.

It's the job of schools to reach out to kids whose families can't or won't give them what they need to do well in school.
And thanks to NCLB it has just become harder. And vouchers. It is their job, but are they doing it?

I see kids who live like this everyday, and if their conditions are that bad they will almsot always drop out before they can even think of college.
Which is exactly why those who actually choose to go should get priority. In acceptance, and scholarships.

that can't be fixed with affirmative action.
Didn't say it would fix it, it can just improve conditions to where it can be fixed.

once kids to apply to colleges they should be judged on how msart and motivated they are. that's it. there's no reason that poor kids can't be smart and motivated
I never said that poor kids can't be smart and motivated. But have you noticed that idiots who are rich can get in quite easy? What's the poor population at Princeton, Harvard, Yale? The poor are dropped off at the local college.

I think it's unwise for schools to judge people based solely on test scores or the kind of courses that their school offered and that they were forced to take.
I can agree.

people in bad situations can go to college if they want to, and if their schools help them achieve theuir goals. affirmative action won't solve the problems that our schools and society in general have, and it's a ery small prt of the bigger picture.
It can help. Those who get out of those bad conditions have that embeded in their brains for the rest of their lives. They have more urge to try and help those they left behind.

To end, I rant. Universities, do they care really who they get intelligence wise? They are a buisness, they are out to make money. Another demonstration of how America's trust in buisnesses screws up. University quality sucks, often. You go to college to show that you can withstand four or more years of brain cell murder. Not to get an education. Do you think somebody with a doctorate is more knowledgable and intelligent than somebody who didn't go to college, but studied the same topic? Do you think a graduating doctor is more knowledgable than a village doctor in a third world country who got the information passed down to him? College is a bunch of bullshit, it has been thrown into the hands of a buisnessman and distorted to a useless comodity.

This issue is so easy to see through. I find it difficult to take anyone seriously who try to tell me that AA is not racist.

College is a bunch of bullshit, it has been thrown into the hands of a buisnessman and distorted to a useless comodity.
Yet those who end up going to college are wanted by businesses. You cannot tell me that you believe someone who gets a good grades (<3.6) in college is not a more valuable worker than one who didn't. There may be a rare exception, but on the whole it holds true.

High school is a useless commodity. Except for extra-curricular activities.

Originally posted by Karankawa
High school is a useless commodity. Except for extra-curricular activities.
Whoo! Useless commodity! So now I can say that I attend Lakewood Useless Commodity? :D

Some highschools are pointless, but in most cases if you have a desire to learn the curriculum, then you will be able to get something out of the class. I would say the same thing for college, except you're paying for college so you'd better want to learn (or at least get good grades).

school is only bullshit if you wnat it to be. sure, some schools suck, and teach you nothing (for instance, my old one) but if you really want to learn then you'll find some way to do it. I actually enjoy going to some of my classes, and look forward to learning stuff. if education is important to someone they'll find a way to reduce the bullshit level of school to a minimum and learn as much as they can.

Yet those who end up going to college are wanted by businesses. You cannot tell me that you believe someone who gets a good grades (<3.6) in college is not a more valuable worker than one who didn't. There may be a rare exception, but on the whole it holds true.
What does it take to fail college? Is it really because you are stupid? They are wanted by buisnesses, but does that necessarily mean they got an education? An education is not throwing dogma at people and letting them absorb it.

High school. Have you looked at a high school textbook? The number of errors, unexcusable errors quite often, is enormous. You cant look through a history textbook without finding countless conflicting events, but then again, history is written by the victors. But even a science text book, error after error after error. I thiink our textbooks still use the 50 year old model of the atom. Is that an education? I can learn more by reading information off the internet with my eyes closed! Overall, what assistance is school to you? I learned what jackasses jocks are.

The grades are mainly based on "did you do your homework". I learned this now, after acing every test in highschool and almost not graduating.
It has now become apparent to me that it is not the information that is important in highschool, but the dedication. Just like with sports and the competition they invoke there.
From the polls that I have read of businesses the first trait they are looking for it dependability. That is what highschool tries to train you for. Then college goes on to test you on it and throw a little information your way as well, because there are certain things that you cannot do without actually taking the course and (or) learning the material (accounting, chemistry, programming)

Originally posted by Karankawa
This issue is so easy to see through. I find it difficult to take anyone seriously who try to tell me that AA is not racist.

If all things were truely equal in this country, your comment might be true. But they aren't and AA is a good way to make things more equitable for everybody.

What would you pose in it's place? How can we bring about diversity in out neighborhoods, our schools and our government?


On college, I went for 4 years, paid and got some financial assistance, and while i'm not doing anything related to my field, I feel I am at an advantage in this world, with an education.

Of course I know a few people who did not go to college, but did not stop the process of learning. To assume that one has all the answers at the age of 21 is naive. Yeah highschool sucks in motivating people to explore and learn new things or things that are at least relevent, but it will give you a leg up in the world.

If you believed strongly in diversity and try to implement it then you are being racist. The word is harsh, but thats what it means.

I fully believe that when it comes to jobs, school and life in general we should not take race into account at all. You may cherish your heritage and your ethnicity, but that should not play a role in what job you get, how cheap your education is, who your friends are, etc....

Think of the royal families in the past, with the crown being inherited to the rightful heir, rather than the man (the gender neutral version of the word for all those nitpicky feminists out there) who would have been the best leader.

There is nothing racist about implementing affirmative action programs. If I were to say black men deserve jobs because whites are inferior workers, well that would be a racist remark.

Trying to make things more equitable for all people is not a racist idea.

What do you propose? Ending Affirmative action will not make these problems go away.

Originally posted by Pepper
There is nothing racist about implementing affirmative action programs.
Racism is discrimination or prejudice based on race. To favor a person over another based on their race is being racist.
Trying to make things more equitable for all people is not a racist idea.
By using race as a factor to even things out makes it a racist idea.
What do you propose? Ending Affirmative action will not make these problems go away.
Yes it will not make these problems go away. It will make the problem of Affirmative Action go away.

Affirmative action is not the problem. Inequality in our country is a problem. AA Is a way to rectify this problem.

You agree that these problems won't go away, what do you propose to do about it? What can we do to make the economic makeup of this country more equitable for all?

Calling things racists because you don't agree with it doesn't make it so. It is a very simplisitic view at a very complex issue.

There is more to the discussion then "it's reverse discrimination" because there is very little to support that notion. You also neglect the discrimination against blacks that happens every day in this country.

White men still hold the majority of wealth in this country, they own more stock, more real estate, and hold more positions of power. Why is it that the US Senate has only ever had 3 blacks elected to office? Why in a city like New York, their figher fighers are 94% white. Yet whites make up less then 30% of the city population? Are you telling me blacks, asians, hispanics, middle eastern or central asian people don't want these jobs? Are you saying blacks, asians, hispanics, middler eastern and central asian's are inferior and can't perform these duties? Or is the fire department filled with nepitism, working on 3 generations of firefighters. How, if you don't have affirmative action, can you change the makeup of this public institution?

rac·ism ( P )
n.
1.The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2.Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Racism is a relatively new concept. It was created due to economic reasons, and that is how it must be destroyed. The only way to end racism is to eliminate the trend that minorities are poorer than whites. And that is where AA comes in. Giving the priority to minorities, it attempts to give a boost to their caste and even it out.

Originally posted by Pepper
Affirmative action is not the problem. Inequality in our country is a problem. AA Is a way to rectify this problem.
AA is not the problem, but it is a problem. AA will not rectify the problem without recreating the problem it was made to rectify.
You agree that these problems won't go away, what do you propose to do about it?
The problem is that parents are racist with no good reason, so they teach that to their kids. It is in the hands of the teachers to rectify this problem. It is not a problem here in Washington as far as I see and as far as the people who I have talked to have seen. If this spreads, and if racism is looked down upon then it will die out over time.
Calling things racists because you don't agree with it doesn't make it so. It is a very simplisitic view at a very complex issue.
I don't agree with it because it is racist. It is a complex issue, but the solution that has been implemented is not complex, it is simply reversing the discrimination to make up for past times.
You also neglect the discrimination against blacks that happens every day in this country.
Yes, but as long as the government provides unbiased and equal opportunities then it has done as much as it can and should. The rest lies upon the individual. What you are talking about is individuals who are racist and that should not be compensated by the government.
There are many people who are black, along with all those who are asian and hispanic who are NOT affected by the governments earlier racism. They should not have this privilage and should not benefit from AA.
White men still hold the majority of wealth in this country, they own more stock, more real estate, and hold more positions of power.
Yes, because there was racism supported by the government in the past and there are individuals who are racist now. You believe this is wrong, yet you propose the exact same answer as the problem.

Why in a city like New York, their figher fighers are 94% white. Yet whites make up less then 30% of the city population? Are you telling me blacks, asians, hispanics, middle eastern or central asian people don't want these jobs? Are you saying blacks, asians, hispanics, middler eastern and central asian's are inferior and can't perform these duties?

And the New York Knicks are 92% black. Why don't we apply AA to the whites too and make the team over half white, hmm? Oh, let me guess. You'd have a problem with players that don't play as well. Interesting philosophy you have there.

I am going to call you a name:

RACIST. Yes sir, Mr. Pepper, YOU, are a racist. You are more racist than any white person I have ever met. Just accept it and realize it, and you'll understand why the crap you spew out of your mouth makes sense only to you.

And since you are a racist, of course you believe in AA. ONLY when it is to your advantage though. And when it is to the advantage of any other race, you have a problem.

You are so misguided. You have no idea what my racial background is. You think because my name is pepper I'm black!??

Stop assuming

Who owns the knicks?

In fact how many blacks or minority (women included, although they make up 51% of the population) are owners of any national sports team do you know of? I would garner that while 92% are black players, about 92% of owners are white and male.

You are also comparing jobs that allow someone with minimal education to earn a decent middle class income, with benefits, to an elitist commerical enterprise, who still only benefit whites. Who can afford a ticket to the Knicks? The top seats for a Ranger game was $50 bucks, try doing that with a family and it becomes unattainable.

So what we are seeing is black performers for a white audience, and white owners. Where is the equality?

If you are a white male in this country you have benefited (directly or indirectly) from the color of your skin. Why is that so hard to believe? Release some of that power, allow it to work for the benefit of others who don't have the same opportunities that you have.

The fact is the Surpreme court has ruled that affirmative action is not a form of discrimination against whites. That race is just one element for accepting a student, just like afterschool activities and volunteer work.

Is a school discriminatory to rural students ho don't always have afterschool activities? Of course not, there are other factors which take that into account, both social, and economical.

The fact that more white ppl have good jobs than blacks is absolutely not rational for discrimination.
I wouldn't give a shit if it were the other way around, if 90% of blacks owned all the businesses and companies and only 2% of whites did. If ONE person treats you differently because of your race then a problem lies within that one person. It is not the government's responsibility to make sure that you get compensated when the break the law.

Look at theives, when someone steals from you, the government doesn't pay for what you lost, OK? Same deal here, except that the government made a mistake in the past. That mistake has been made right now. It's like saying, since blacks were denied the rights of a free man in the past, now it's the white's turn to have their privialges taken away. Thats stupid and irrational. A black child today does not have rights taken away from them now and I did nothing to take rights away from anyone in my life, so why should I be blamed for what previous generations of people that happen to have the same color skin did to previous generations of black people.

Who is blaming you? I'm just looking for equality and social justice. I want equal opportunity for all. I don't see it happening in this country, and I think Affermative action is a good way to rectify these differences.

I'm done. I feel like I'm just repeating myself now.

I am getting blamed because of AA, because it is racist against whites and because I am white. AA is supposed to rectify damages done in the past, which I was not a part of, but here I am getting the punishment because of it.

Obviously there is not equal opportunity because of AA. That is the only thing that changes the equality. If it were not for AA, jobs would be presented to the public equally to all.

It's not supposed to rectify previous damages. It's supposed to help current ones, and prevent future ones.

Originally posted by Pepper
Who owns the knicks?

That's irrelevant to the argument. Based on your statement, the fact that 92% of the Knicks are black means that racism is present and there should be more whites. Would you say that's a good idea, even if the level of play falls dramatically?

You are also comparing jobs that allow someone with minimal education to earn a decent middle class income, with benefits, to an elitist commerical enterprise, who still only benefit whites. Who can afford a ticket to the Knicks? The top seats for a Ranger game was $50 bucks, try doing that with a family and it becomes unattainable.

There was no comparison being made between the two. The point was that if you hired basketball players based on race, you wouldn't be hiring the best people for the job. Jobs should go to the most qualified. No one is going to give a spot on the team to a white guy because he was disadvantaged by not being able to play street ball in the poor part of town.

So what we are seeing is black performers for a white audience, and white owners. Where is the equality?

First of all, basketball doesn't have anything near an all white audience. Secondly, the basketball players are making several million dollars a year. I hardly see the exploitation.

Does anyone deny that AA is racism, let them speak now and give me a damn good reason.

You are so misguided. You have no idea what my racial background is. You think because my name is pepper I'm black!??


You assumed that I assumed! Where do I say that you are black? I am only calling you a racist. And if you are a white racist, so be it, and if you are a black racist, than that is what you are.

ANYONE who thinks that they should get scholarships or jobs simply because of skin color is a racist. And that is you.

Though there has been much debate going in both directions, not one person has outright stated that AA is not racist.

It never ceases to amuse me how certain people want to turn everything into a black vs. white issue. Get over it.

Man kara, you really need to read my posts a little more clearly, lol. I don't see it in black and white and I was in agreement with you.

Though I never said anything about it being a black vs white issue.

Lol, sorry man, not you, I was talking about Pepper. Of course I wasn't talking about you, man!

Originally posted by Karankawa


RACIST. Yes sir, Mr. Pepper, YOU, are a racist. You are more racist than any white person I have ever met.

Why make the distinction then?

I see inequality in this country, and I want to see it changed. I don't know how that makes me a racist. I never said whites were inferior, but I am saying whites get special treatment in this country.

If you don't think there is still inequality in this country then you are living in a box.

I never advocated that anyone should be given anything solely on the color of their skin, but I do think a person's background has some relevancy in the hiring, or enrollment process, just like extra curricular activities, work, or volunteering.

For all the talk of affirmative action I never see anyone get bent out of shape of legacies in college. No one every crapped on about how Bush, our president, benefited from preferential treatment, or how thousands of students (usually white) get to attend a college simply because one of their parents when there.

Affirmative action provides promise and a future to many people who, under normal everyday circumstances, wouldn't get that opportunity. If that makes me a racist, well poo poo on you. Sticks and stones may break my bones...

If you give one race preference over another it makes you a racist.

Why do you believe that one race needs this peferencial treatment over another? Is it just because you see a trend that there are more whites in the places of power? That is not a valid arguement.

No one every crapped on about how Bush, our president, benefited from preferential treatment
I've given him shit for that on several occasions.

You want to know what my biggest problem is? I don't believe that whites get preferential treatment at all. In fact, I believe that thanks to programs like AA, whites are actually penalized today.....simply because of the color of their skin.

In the workforce, I have seen white people that were just as qualified, and oftentimes arguably more than some minorities get turned away because the company is trying to reach a "quota." That is BS. It's wrong. And I don't care what kind of spin you put on it, but you just hired a man because he is a minority and turned away a more qualified individual because he is white.

Colleges are on the same track. Monies are spent on minority scholarships instead of on scholarships for individuals that are good, hard working students.

The "preferential treatment" fable that Pepper continues to talk about is a thing of the past. That may have been true for his generation, but not anymore. The hard facts are in, and colleges and companies don't want to hire white males. They want minorities, and they are at the point where they will ruin good, hard working people and force them to not get what they deserve singularly, and wholly because of the color of the skin.

Anyone that supports this policy is a racist, and there is absolutely no other way to cut it.

Why do you believe that one race needs this peferencial treatment over another?

Because there is a systematic descrepency on how whites are treated compared to minorities, (black, asian, muslim, etc). Peferencial treatment has been going on for years, except it's been male white preference. I see AA as a means to make things more equal.

Is it just because you see a trend that there are more whites in the places of power? That is not a valid arguement.

Why not? If this is a government by the people for the people where everyone is equal, why don't we see a more equal distribution of power among all people? Why have we had only 3 black senators in over 130 years? Why if women comprise 52% of the population they only hold 13% of elected offices?

Originally posted by Karankawa
You want to know what my biggest problem is? I don't believe that whites get preferential treatment at all. In fact, I believe that thanks to programs like AA, whites are actually penalized today.....simply because of the color of their skin.

In the workforce, I have seen white people that were just as qualified, and oftentimes arguably more than some minorities get turned away because the company is trying to reach a "quota." That is BS. It's wrong. And I don't care what kind of spin you put on it, but you just hired a man because he is a minority and turned away a more qualified individual because he is white.

Colleges are on the same track. Monies are spent on minority scholarships instead of on scholarships for individuals that are good, hard working students.

The "preferential treatment" fable that Pepper continues to talk about is a thing of the past. That may have been true for his generation, but not anymore. The hard facts are in, and colleges and companies don't want to hire white males. They want minorities, and they are at the point where they will ruin good, hard working people and force them to not get what they deserve singularly, and wholly because of the color of the skin.

Anyone that supports this policy is a racist, and there is absolutely no other way to cut it.

If I had a dollar for everytime someone told me whites suffered because unqualifed blacks took there job I'd be a millionare.

I think it's a disservice to the discussion when you resort to name calling to justify your position.

My generation? your generation. Dude, I'm 30 years old! I know interracial couples in new york city who would not drive at night because it was a guarantee they would be pulled over by police. I never heard a white couple complain of such treatments.

You need to step out of you white privilage box and see just how far you have gotten with the color of your skin. I've been hired by many companies (both multi nationals and small businesses) and I'm a white male and I saw plenty plenty plenty of white men working there, and not all of them should have been. Believe me, whites have nothing to worry about.

Why do you think white men should get all these jobs? Why do you automatically assume that if a black person is hired they are unqualified? TO me that is a racist thought.

Originally posted by Pepper
If I had a dollar for everytime someone told me whites suffered because unqualifed blacks took there job I'd be a millionare.

I think it's a disservice to the discussion when you resort to name calling to justify your position.

My generation? your generation. Dude, I'm 30 years old! I know interracial couples in new york city who would not drive at night because it was a guarantee they would be pulled over by police. I never heard a white couple complain of such treatments.

You need to step out of you white privilage box and see just how far you have gotten with the color of your skin. I've been hired by many companies (both multi nationals and small businesses) and I'm a white male and I saw plenty plenty plenty of white men working there, and not all of them should have been. Believe me, whites have nothing to worry about.

Why do you think white men should get all these jobs? Why do you automatically assume that if a black person is hired they are unqualified? TO me that is a racist thought.

The problem is that not all whites discriminate any more than all blacks are inferior. Your position that all whites are privleged is just as racist as someone saying that all blacks are .

I'd love to know what I've gotten from my privileged status. What I do know is that I've been explicitly denied the oppurtunity to apply for jobs and scholarships because I'm white, but haven't been granted any such oppurtunities explicitly because I'm white. Furthermore, I have been explicitly been forced to get higher grades and SAT scores to gain academic acceptance, solely because I'm white. How privilege has made me a better student, I don't know. I guess being white has caused me to do more homework, read more books, and do more math than the average black.

To further exacerbate the injustice, AA affects the younger generation who are much less apt to be racist, while the older generation is the less affected, but more apt to be racist.

Face it. AA's ridiculous, unjust, and blind. It's only made me from a color blind person, to a color conscious person. Now when I see a black in my school, my first thought is "he didn't have to work as hard as me to get here."

Originally posted by Leper
What I do know is that I've been explicitly denied the oppurtunity to apply for jobs and scholarships because I'm white, but haven't been granted any such oppurtunities explicitly because I'm white.


how do you know this?

Originally posted by Pepper
how do you know this?

Because the job/scholarships said in their requirements that they were for minorities only.

OHHHHH where does this happen? Where is a job specifically for a minority? I have looked for work on many occasions, and maybe things are a little different in texas, but I have never seen a Minorities only job offer. I see women and people of color encouraged to apply, but never minority only.

Scholarships are available for all sorts of fields and backgrounds. Many of which go unclaimed every year.

Originally posted by Pepper
OHHHHH where does this happen? Where is a job specifically for a minority? I have looked for work on many occasions, and maybe things are a little different in texas, but I have never seen a Minorities only job offer. I see women and people of color encouraged to apply, but never minority only.

Scholarships are available for all sorts of fields and backgrounds. Many of which go unclaimed every year.

It may not qualify as a "job" and thus was legal, but it was interning with the Houston court system and involved a significant stipend ($500/month?). I would've been qualified and applied if it wasn't for minorities only and will probably work an unpaid internship this summer, you know, because of my white privileged status, I get the best of work.

And I suppose it's okay if minorities are only "encouraged to apply," which by implication discourages whites from applying? Or how about this, do you think it would be acceptable if I opened a business and put a sign that said "whites encouraged to apply for jobs" on the window?

I think people 30 years from now will look back on that with the same distaste we look back on "whites-only" bathrooms.

Oh yeah, I have another question for a racist like you: Would you have approached my posts with the same skepticism if I were a black person claiming discrimination?

More name calling huh? I do not believe any people are superior to any other people. I don't think I even said anything on this board that would label me a racist.

I see too many whites in very good positions of power to think they are suffering by affirmative action. Many of them do not deserve such status.

Would you have approached my posts with the same skepticism if I were a black person claiming discrimination? It would all depend on the situation, I tend to stay away conjecture.

Originally posted by Pepper
More name calling huh? I do not believe any people are superior to any other people. I don't think I even said anything on this board that would label me a racist.

I see too many whites in very good positions of power to think they are suffering by affirmative action. Many of them do not deserve such status.

Would you have approached my posts with the same skepticism if I were a black person claiming discrimination? It would all depend on the situation, I tend to stay away conjecture.

Hey, if you want respect, don't direct your smarmy replies and racist stereotypes toward me.

Don't worry, you can spare me your "conjecture" cause I am fairly certain of the answer.

Oh yeah, so you observe that many whites are in positions of power, therefore all whites should be penalized in the work/school setting...Let me show you another application of such racist logic: Many blacks are in prison, therefore all blacks should be freed from prison. Yes, your position is just as ludicrous.

Where are whites penalized? Where have they made declines where minorities made advances? Sometimes people in power need to make a few sacrifices for the greater good of all people. Giving minorities an opportunity does not equate penalization. Whites are still earning more then blacks, and there is less unemployment in white communities. (Half the rate compared to blacks)

Give me one example on where I have made a racial stereotype.

Oh yeah, so you observe that many whites are in positions of power, therefore all whites should be penalized in the work/school setting...Let me show you another application of such racist logic: Many blacks are in prison, therefore all blacks should be freed from prison.

No i never said that, don't put words in my mouth. I don't really even understand what you are trying to say, or how you can come to that conclusion.

I think we need to look at the causes for these discrepencies. Why are more blacks males in prison then in college? Why do blacks get longer sentences for the same crime then if a white person committed it? Why does poverty effect so many more people in the black community?

Lack of opportunity. Affirmative action is a way to rectify this issue.

Tell me, are you in college?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pepper
Where are whites penalized? Where have they made declines where minorities made advances? Sometimes people in power need to make a few sacrifices for the greater good of all people. Giving minorities an opportunity does not equate penalization. Whites are still earning more then blacks, and there is less unemployment in white communities. (Half the rate compared to blacks)

When you force whites to get higher grades and test scores to get into the same schools as minorities, you are penalizing whites.

It appears that you don't understand how whites are being penalized, so let me use a simplified example. Say you have a class of 10 students, one of whom is white and the rest are black. The teacher says, "Only 7 people will pass this class and black students' tests will be boosted by adding 10 points to promote diversity." That is no different from saying, "Only 7 people will pass this class and white students' tests will be penalized by subtracting 10 points in order to promote diversity."

Give me one example on where I have made a racial stereotype.

Quote: "whites have nothing to worry about."

Took me a few seconds to find this quote....That's a racial stereotype and an obviously false one at that.


"Oh yeah, so you observe that many whites are in positions of power, therefore all whites should be penalized in the work/school setting...Let me show you another application of such racist logic: Many blacks are in prison, therefore all blacks should be freed from prison."

No i never said that, don't put words in my mouth. I don't really even understand what you are trying to say, or how you can come to that conclusion.

I was saying you're using false logic.

And if I'm putting words into your mouth, why are you pointing out that only 3 black senators in 190 years? Is your point not that, since you observe few blacks in positions of power, that affirmative action should be implemented?

I think we need to look at the causes for these discrepencies. Why are more blacks males in prison then in college? Why do blacks get longer sentences for the same crime then if a white person committed it? Why does poverty effect so many more people in the black community?

Lack of opportunity. Affirmative action is a way to rectify this issue.

This is where I disagree with you. I think the cause of the discrepencies is mutilfaceted and little of it, today, has to do with lack of oppurtunity.

The average Asian has just as much oppurtunity as the average black and they do just fine in our society.

I would suggest the difference is more related to cultural differences. For instance, in black culture, single-parenting is much more widespread and accepted. And I think we all know that single parenting produces less-educated, less-healthy, and less-lawful children. Also, education is not as valued as in black culture as it is in white culture. That has a lot to do with how successful you are in society.

Of course, a part of the disparities is also due to the fact that blacks are still a poorer sector of society. You could rid this by ordering a redistribution of wealth for past wrongs versus the black community, but that is facially unjust since not everyone committed a wrong versus the black community. If this is the problem you're trying to solve and how you want to solve it, you may as well support awarding damages for slave reparation.

If you ask me, none of these factors are an excuse for an individual to claim she has a lack of oppurtunity. Anyone with an IQ above 70 can goto junior college on financial aid and get a specialized degree if they really want to improve their standard of living.

Tell me, are you in college?

Not that it has anything to do with the issue, but yes. Let me guess: the fact that I'm white got me here?

Another racial stereotype from Pepper:

You need to step out of you white privilage box and see just how far you have gotten with the color of your skin.

Sorry Pepper, but just because you cheated the system and got ahead by your skin color doesn't mean everyone else did. I, for one, did not. In fact, I HAVE BEEN PENALIZED for being white and male. Maybe Oregon is more back woods than Texas is. *shrug*