Just as has been demonsrated in the past 227 years of this nations history. Restricting the rights of people regardless of their position in life is and will always be historically frowned upon.

Gay marriages is a very touchy and rather strange idea, but at the very same time this nation is primarily based on the idea that, freedom comes first. Although many of the founding fathers were religious men, they presented our doctrine in such a way that religious beliefs were not the basis of this governance.

Had the founding fathers wanted America to be lead in the teachings of the Bible or the Koran, or the Torah, then those books along with their respetive teachings would have at least been mentioned in the writings of the country. Fact is a Theocracy is a system of governance in which laws are based on religion, America is a representative Democracy.

As the Quakers and Puritans lost political power in the US so did the idea that America would be run by a religious doctrine. As a Christian I disagree with the idea of same sex marriages, but I am also aware enough to recognize that America is based on freedoms, of religion, of speech, and inherent in that is the freedom of choice.

But by demanding that all even those who refuse to accept the teachings of Jesus Christ live and die by those words, you will inevitably create more hatred, more violence, and more division (which is totally contrary to the word of God).

I disagree with the entire idea that President Bush has sent men and women to die in the name of "freedom" or Capitalism, yet simultaniously he's claiming to be a Christian. Jesus consistantly advocated non-violence, and turning the other cheek, even in the face of danger. George Bush pretends that God lights his path, I ask, what God? Not the God of Abraham who dictated the ten Commandments. Never once does the Bible say "Thou shall not kill...unless directed by an elected official, superior officer, unless you're a peace officer, unless you or your families life is in danger etc.....". It clearly says "Thou shall not Kill".

And in Deuteronomy 4:2 "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall you deminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you." Which means don't add to or subtract from the commandments to suit you're want's.

Understanding that Christianity isn't, picking and choosing passages of the Bible, is the first step to becoming a Christian. George W. Bush kills in the same vein as Pontious Pilot and at the same time pretends to wear the wool of the lamb. This is a direct example of the definition of hypocricy.

Hypocrisy-
1. The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.

Creating a Christian Thocracy is one thing but pretending that the U.S. is one is a complete other. Laws to restrict ones freedoms have historically been frowned upon, and are routinely over turned. I suspect if this Amendment passes it will also.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1883-2004Feb24.html

O-Plain

It's easy to mostly agree with your post; the reference to the quakers and puritans notwithstanding as in my judgement the colonial religious groups were inaccurately represented in the history books and the jury is still out concerning their integrity.

Anyway, this would be the first time the constitution has been ammended to remove a right in lieu of installing a right. Possibly the 18th would be the exception if drinking alcohol is seen as a right. Regardless, the 21st fixed that one. Thank god.

What concerns me is the wording of the ammendment. It will not just ban gay marriages but also ban any form of civil union. What that means precisely is not known until we see the wording of the ammendment. Will GLBT's be arrested and charged with federal crimes (remember -- this bill nullifies states rights). Will their next stop be Gitmo? Will they be put to death as some christians advocate? Will they be hunted down in the streets with bounty on their heads or will they be allowed to coexist with hetero's as long as they keep their sex in secret?

For GLBT's this has to be a very scary time.

A second thought comes to mind. That being the other ammendment that will more than likely be working it's way through at the same time -- the 'Arnold' ammendment which will allow foreign born citizens to hold the office of president. What happens if these 2 bills collide and horse trading begins or worse yet they result in a crisis and a constitutional convention is called, similar to May, 1787 when the constitution was framed.

Would such a crisis not put the entire constitution at risk or at least put it up for grabs with the stronger of the sides getting to change whatever they please? How would such a crisis be resolved?

There should be little wonder why ammendments are rarely considered but I sadly report that this will probably boil down to the same old thing 'either you're with us or your against us' and anyone that votes against the ammendments will be labelled either terrorists, traitors or un-american.

See ya in the streets.

Dop

enough with the dramatics already, every thing has to be such a freaking tragedy with you man. you took an proposed ammendment and in a few short hours turned it into genocide and imprisonment in concetration camps and the end of the country as we know it you need to relax. A very scary time for GLBTTP, LMAO. I said long ago the gay "pride" would do nothing but get them nothing. everyone agreed that they should get all the benefits of a married couple, but they didnt want that, they had to have the word "marriage", they were to good to use civil union or anything else. now they have gotten everyone sick and tired of it and they will wind up getting jack shit. pride never helps, it only hurts.

and what do you mean see you in the streets? waht are the gays fgoing to rise up agaisnt us and slap us around? why are you so hopped up for a revolution? you always talk like that. trust me, you dont want a violent revolution in this country

travh, I don't even know where to begin. by taking away people's beasic rights this country is totally going against everything it ever stood for. I'm not sure how much more unamerican ne can get. I also don't understand where your views about homosexuals come from. gay pride is extremely important, because there are so many peole out there who harass homosexuals based soely on their sexual orientation. just because a group of people share a sexual orientation doesn;t mean that they have identical views on everything. there are some gay people who don't want marraige becasue they think of it as a religious or heterosexual institution. saying that all gay peole think that is like saying all jews are liberals, or that everyone in the south is anti-abortion. it's completely generalizing. I doubt I can talk sense into you, but please atleast try to not to generalize and stereotype, it will get you nowhere.

please dont try to talk sense into me whammybar, I ahve about had it up to here with people doing that. everyone is so sure how it should be, and how to get there, it really is getting old. Its like we hear if we just allow the gays to get married, that s all they want. we all know thats a line of bull. no one ever stops wanting things. once they win this struggle, a new one will begin. have you ever felt like you had to just stop giving ground and take a stand for what you believe in? why am i a biggot and need sense talked into me becasue I disagree with you? I am getting offended by the generalization that anyone against gay marriage is some hick hillbilly who doesnt know any better. we are people who know right from wrong as well as you do. the thing that upsets people the most is the arrogance of the gay movement and their air of superioritiy over the lowly christians who are an outdated dinosaur compared to them. it is pathetic and sad.

I am getting offended by the generalization that anyone against gay marriage is some hick hillbilly who doesnt know any better. we are people who know right from wrong as well as you do. the thing that upsets people the most is the arrogance of the gay movement and their air of superioritiy over the lowly christians

I am convinced that you are most deinitely an ass. I'm sorry to resort to name calling, but you've proved it this time.

I suspect that you have no meaningful friendships with any GLBT as they would not want to sink to your level. I also suspect that if given the chance, they would pound the living crap out of you. It is narrow-minded, arrogant, "living in a box" people like you that brought on the black movement, the women's movement, and the GLBT movement - not to mention others. Quite frankly, who could resist rising up against people like you? The arrogance alone is stifling.

Times change and people change. Get over it. Your view on "right vs. wrong" obviously doesn't encompass everyone. It strikes me that the very things that I perceive to be RIGHT in this situation (love, compassion, civil rights for all, non-judgmental views, commitment, etc.) are the same things that you perceive to be WRONG.

If GLBT want to have "marriage" vs "civil union" then let them. Is it affecting you? Is it threatening you? Does is jeopardize your lifestyle? If you're worried about what your kids think later on, then teach them YOUR views. Perhaps they'll grow up to realize what kind of person you really are.

wow, the ultra tolerant and enlightened gay movement strikes again. excuse me if I do not agree with everything you say oh mighty one, and please, dont let the gays pound l the living crap out of me, that doesnt sound very pleasant.

I have a question. If GLBT stand for Gay, Lesbian, Bi, and Trans-gendered...does that mean the word gay should only be used for men? Or do we have a redundancy here with gay and lesbian? Not starting anything, just asking a question.

I dont know but it seems like every year a new letter is added to the list

Trav - what do you do all day? It seems you are always on here. Not trying to start anything - just asking.

Well maybe you should have asked him in a personal message if you were not starting anything.

HE MUST BE ON HERE ALL DAY LONG TO TO KNOW i AM ON HERE ALL DAY LONG

Originally posted by Travh20
HE MUST BE ON HERE ALL DAY LONG TO TO KNOW i AM ON HERE ALL DAY LONG
OK TRAV I THINK I UNDERSTAND.

Originally posted by Travh20
please dont try to talk sense into me whammybar, I ahve about had it up to here with people doing that. everyone is so sure how it should be, and how to get there, it really is getting old. Its like we hear if we just allow the gays to get married, that s all they want. we all know thats a line of bull. no one ever stops wanting things. once they win this struggle, a new one will begin. have you ever felt like you had to just stop giving ground and take a stand for what you believe in? why am i a biggot and need sense talked into me becasue I disagree with you? I am getting offended by the generalization that anyone against gay marriage is some hick hillbilly who doesnt know any better. we are people who know right from wrong as well as you do. the thing that upsets people the most is the arrogance of the gay movement and their air of superioritiy over the lowly christians who are an outdated dinosaur compared to them. it is pathetic and sad.


you're talking about homosexuality as if it';s a disease, or a nationality to be looked down upon. it's just a normal group of people, like anyone else, excpet their bodies happen to be genetically programmed to fall in love with people of the same sex as them. if this was the fifties would you be saying that about the civil rights movement? that "those blacks" will just keep demanding more and more? I really hope not. I'm not stereotyping anything about you. the only thing I know about you is what your views are, and that's all I'm attacking. I never mentioned anything besdies that your views betray you as an extremely biased and closed minded person. I'm not sure why you're getting so defensive. I really can't see how someone who denies other human beings rights knows right from wrong. how owuld you fel is homosxuality was the norm and you were being denied the right to marry becasue you were straight? sesne needs to be talked into you becasue you are biased. it's just not right to look down on other people the way you seem to be doing. just be nice, it's a really simple thing to do.

Whammy, I hate to say it, but that post is looking down on Trav quite a bit. Otherwise, I like it.

i dont give a crap what 2 people do in their own time! I could care less if larry and jerry plug each other, so what. just dont try and use the word marriage.

Originally posted by Travh20
i dont give a crap what 2 people do in their own time! I could care less if larry and jerry plug each other, so what. just dont try and use the word marriage.


that's your only problem with it? the name?


Borg: I'm a stuck up elitist liberal. and proud of it :D

yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! have you not read any of my posts??? I have said I dont care, jsut dont vall it marriage, and that is waht a majority of people who think like me beliieve. you can have all teh rights, privledges nad responsibilites of a man/woman marriage, just call it something else.

Originally posted by Travh20
you can have all teh rights, privledges nad responsibilites of a man/woman marriage, just call it something else.

Nope. Sorry, I'm not interested in defining my relationship in lesser terms than yours.

lesser terms? get off it already pagan. its not our fault you have an inferiority complex. obviously the name is more important to you than the beneifts, which proves this is a big bunch of shit from the get go. you obviously are not being to hurt by it if you can turn it down and demand more. this is nothing more than politics to you it seems. lesser terms, WTF?

Originally posted by HaVoK
I have a question. If GLBT stand for Gay, Lesbian, Bi, and Trans-gendered...does that mean the word gay should only be used for men? Or do we have a redundancy here with gay and lesbian? Not starting anything, just asking a question.

The opinions on this question are varied. I think the term "gay" can properly be applied to homosexuals of either sex, but some women will disagree. The gay movement prides itself on being "inclusive" but it is not as unified as Trav and others like him would have you believe. Some lesbians would be offended at the term "gay" being applied to them and would insist on being referred to as lesbians. These are often the same females that prefer the term "womyn" because it doesn't have the word "men" in it. There are some lesbians that are strongly anti-male for whatever reason. Indeed it has been my experience as a gay man, that lesbians are welcomed far more often in a gay men's bar than gay men are welcomed in a lesbian bar. As far as the term GLBT goes it's just an acronym that is used by gay publications and organizations to illustrate their "inclusiveness", and is not neccessarily illustrative of the situation as a whole in the gay community. For a while we were being referred to as lesbigays but in an effort to include the transgendered individuals it became GLBT's. Not an easy word to pronounce and it doesn't roll trippingly off the tongue.

So what are our choices? My own personal opinion is that I don't much care for the word "gay" but I'm willing to live with it because it has come into the common usage. I think the word makes us all sound a little frivolous, and makes it easier for people to not take us seriously. On the other hand "homosexual" is a bit to clinical for everyday use. "Fag" and "queer" are right out. "Fudge-packing, limp-wristed, nancy-boy" is too cumbersome and doesn't lend itself to polite conversation. "God-cursed sodomite" is inappropriate for an atheist to use, as it would be somewhat hypocritical in any case, to admit the existence of a deity that you dont believe in. So for now I think I'll stick with "gay". :D

sounds like you run a real tight ship there pagan :rolleyes:

I think that gays should be allowed to marry,despite what the church,bush and all the others idiots that are anti-gay are sayin. I seriously think the definition of marriage needs to be changed,and it should be "the joining of two people in holy matramony" well, i am an atheist,but i could agree with that definition. I won't name names,but some ppl in here need to pull their head outta their patriotic ass. (LOL I CAN'T SPELL TODAY!). Marriage is a beautiful thing period,no matter who is getting married.