here is a quote from John Kerry made very recently

In a letter to Bush, Kerry wrote: "As you well know, Vietnam was a very difficult and painful period in our nation's history, and the struggle for our veterans continues. So, it has been hard to believe that you would choose to reopen these wounds for your personal political gain. But, that is what you have chosen to do."

now I ask you, who is the one who every 5 minutes reopens these wounds for his personal political gain by reminding us he was in vietnam?

Once again, to the anti war leftists the mere presence of somebody in vietnam automatically makes them some great national defense genius. nevermind all the harm they did to the defense structure with their votes in the senate. now we are suposed to listen to the same people who spit on the boys coming home from vietnam and believe that participation in the very cause they hated the most, the war in vietnam, is the greatest assest the president can have. how can these double talking bafoons expect the american people not to pick up on this?


then Kerry tires to make it appear that bush is attacking all vietnam veterans. "I don't know what it is that all these Republicans who didn't serve in Vietnam are fighting a war against those of us who did," the Massachusetts senator said. I am sure there is not one republican who ever served in vietnam Senator. In fact, from what I hear you were probalby the only guy over there.:rolleyes:

story (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040222/D80S2RDO1.html)

Originally posted by Travh20
......now we are suposed to listen to the same people who spit on the boys coming home from vietnam and believe that participation in the very cause they hated the most, the war in vietnam, is the greatest assest the president can have. how can these double talking bafoons expect the american people not to pick up on this?
<Yaaaaaawwwwwwnnnnnn...>

Now.......you're falling-back on fairy-tales???? (http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/article/?id=350&hilite=spitting)

How amateurish. :rolleyes:

Bush & Rove are liars & cowards. Learn to live with it.

Where the f*ck do you get 'anti-war leftists' crap. I can show you many right wingers opposed to this slaughter of iraquis, a-stans and americans. Open your eyes and look around. You may be standing alone.

Dop the scumster.

So I suppose people who said they got spit on were lying shaman? how come everything that goes against what you say is a lie or myth? is it impossible for you to ever be wrong about anything? typical democrat elitist. And dop, I am anti war as well, I dont like it, its no fun, and the thought of people being killed is a bad thought. its easy to just hide behind the WAR IS BAD story and never have to make a hard decision. to understand war is bad but unfortunatly necesary in a human world is an unpopular but realistic view.

Originally posted by Travh20
So I suppose people who said they got spit on were lying shaman?
Sounds like it!!!!!!! :p

how come everything that goes against what you say is a lie or myth?
Awwwww, jeeeezzzzz.......'cause REAL combat-vets say so???????? :p

NEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shaman, as usual, you're talking about experiences you never witnessed or had yourself. I've been the recipient of plenty of physical & verbal abuse while in uniform, while traveling to or from my 1st , 2d and 3rd tours. At the time, I was doing nothing more than standing in an airport waiting for my next flight. It happened in Chicago, it happened in Philadelphia. Don't try and convince anyone that incidents did not occur.
You don't know diddly when it comes to discussing anything about Vietnam, so just shut your pie hole.

there goes all of shamans tough talk in one fell swoop. I guess he still doesnt realize a thousand web sites full of lies wont equal one piece of truth.

Trav, parrots are never able to figure things out like that.

Originally posted by Travh20
who is the one who every 5 minutes reopens these wounds for his personal political gain by reminding us he was in vietnam?
I believe you are missing the point of trying to get elected. You put forth your good qualities and qualifications, but how is he reopening wounds by reminding us that he served our country? What he is responding to is Bush attacking his military service in Vietnam. THAT is a low blow, to strike at an honorable military combatant, saying that he was not. Bush on the other hand deserves this, because it is not clear that he did serve when he was supposed to.

nevermind all the harm they did to the defense structure with their votes in the senate.

Damn straight, you still don't realise that we dont need more military spending. The military budget needs to be cut.

now we are suposed to listen to the same people who spit on the boys coming home from vietnam and believe that participation in the very cause they hated the most, the war in vietnam, is the greatest assest the president can have.
You seem to be a little confused here, let me explain this;
To have the honors of 3 Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star and a Silver Star, Kerry must have made a difference and showed that he deserved them. No matter what war it was, he deserved it. Whether or not the war was right, he recieved honors for his actions. The war was a failure and it was not justified. Yes I believe that the war was wrong, but NOBODY is spitting on the vets coming back. Don't ever say that, if someone did that they should get their ass beat right then and there.

Wind

Absolutely right ... anybody that spit on a vet would have had their asses handed to them in a heartbeat. If it did happen it was a rare occassion and people that believe these wild stories are just showing either their ignorance or their age which is too young to have been there to see for themselves.

Spitting on a vet -- that's beyond laughable. In my hood that could get you seriously messed up -- I mean seriously like in you might not even know your own name when the vets get done pounding your ass. LMAO BWAhahahahahahahahahha

Dop

Why on earth would you want to cut the defense budget??? I do believe that is how we got into this whole terrorism mess.

Why was the war a failure??? Because people died? WELL GUESS WHAT, PPL DIE IN WARS. good people die, bad people, die, and innocent people die. War is not a pretty thing, but just because something isnt pretty doesnt mean it has no purpose.

Why would a distinguished record in Vietnam automatically make someone a good leader? I have no doubts that Kerry could lead a group of men into battle and fight brilliantly. But leading a country into war is totally different.

windwip, do you live on the same planet as I do? show me where once Bush attacked Kerrys military service. and dont go and get something someone else said and say bush made him say it, if you do that then every every single thing anyone says bad about bush will have magically come from Kerrys mouth, and I am sure you dont want Kerry having said bush knew about 9-11 and all that BS.

as far as reopenng the wounds, dont you think by brining up vietnam every 5 minutes in a stump speech, regardless of your intent, is reopening the wounds? and it is jsut plain stupid to think that anything Kerry did is off limits becasue he was in a war. having a few medals (that he actually threw away anyway) doesnt make you immune to criticism, especially in a presidential election! anytime anyone from the republicans criticizes Kerry from now on are they going to be accused of atacking his war record as a way to attempt to silence them> WTF? maybe if he cant take it he shouldnt be running for president. I have military decorations as well, can I now criticize kerry for his voting record?

Originally posted by Evil Homer
Why on earth would you want to cut the defense budget??? I do believe that is how we got into this whole terrorism mess.
Our military budget would not prevent sept 11. You must understand this first.
I have argued our military budget many times on this site but here goes again;
US has 6 times the next runner up for military spending (Russia).
US spends more than the next 20 countries combined.
The US spends 37 TIMES the amount of the rouge nations (Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan and Syria)

We can easily defend ourselves with a fifth of our current budget.



Why was the war a failure??? Because people died? WELL GUESS WHAT, PPL DIE IN WARS.
I am glad you are so enlightened as to realize that, but do you remember the purpose of that war? I could give you the entire history, I know the purpose for the war and I know we did not succeed. Not only that, but the purpose of the war was (in my mind) not valid. It was a failure because we did not accomplish what we went in there to do. Here let me be a little more clear;

failure - The condition or fact of not achieving the desired end or ends

Why would a distinguished record in Vietnam automatically make someone a good leader? I have no doubts that Kerry could lead a group of men into battle and fight brilliantly.
It is one of the qualities of a good leader, his political career is also a good quality and qualification to be president.

his political career is also a qualification to be president? so a guy who wants to gut the military, sees vietnam as a total failure and waste of time puts military experience above actual political credentials. now I have heard it all.

Travh, I am fine with people criticizing Kerry. Actually I encourage all criticism of a president or political figure as long as it is not slander and as long as it is valid.

show me where once Bush attacked Kerrys military service.
Alright, I misspoke. It was an accusation of coming from Bush. Here is the exact statement from your article;
Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry accused President Bush on Saturday of using surrogates to attack his military service in Vietnam and his subsequent activism against that war.

The reason I tend to believe this is because Bush ran push polls in the 2000 S. Carolina primary saying, “Would you think less of John McCain if you knew he had fathered an illegitimate black child?” Though John McCain had not of course.

it is jsut plain stupid to think that anything Kerry did is off limits becasue he was in a war That was not my intent. I believe that invalid criticisms should not be presented as well as slander, which this undoubtly was.

Originally posted by Travh20
his political career is also a qualification to be president? so a guy who wants to gut the military, sees vietnam as a total failure and waste of time puts military experience above actual political credentials. now I have heard it all.
I don't know how you misunderstood, but let me repeat it a little more clearly;

Yes his political career is a qualification to be president. He was senator of Massachusetts. That is a qualification.

Vietnam WAS a failure. I described it above.

Who said he put military experience above actual political experience, I believe he is called Massachusetts Senator John Kerry in the democratic caucus'.

Everyone is puting his military carrer over his politics, thats the point! by deflecting scrutiny away form his politics and basking him in the light of heroism he gets a free pass. they re trying to tell us "never mind he is pro abortion, pro gay marriage, pro UN control over American affairs, he was in a war" then they can use the never ending coverage of his war record to deflect criticism, becasue anyone who says anything bad against him is disputing his war record or his patriotism. its a fucking scam. do you know how many people served in vietnam? millions. why is this clown any better than any of them? the answer is he is not. in reality he is worse, becasue he came home and stabbed his "comrades" in the back by calling them baby killers and decapitators and all taht other crap. he threw his friends decorations ovr the fence and saved his so he could ride them later in his political carrer. the guy is a scumbag. I dont care what you say about me or how I am disrespecting his brave war record. he disrespected it himself by selling out his brothers in arms for political gain. the son of a bitch is using his participatiojn in a war he said was genocide and pure evil to get his goals. is that OK with you?

Here's what Kerry said today (my paraphrase)

"I don't know what it is about what these Republicans who didn't serve in any war have against those of us who are Democrats who did."

I don't see any of the chickenhawks coming forward with a rebuttal. It must be a bitch to have your 35-year-old draft dodging past come back to haunt you.

A boil on his ass?? am I hearing this right? LMAO

Dop

i dont what it is about a guy who constantly brings up vietnam accusing someone else of opening up old wounds by talking bout vietnam. followed by his ham handed attempt to insinuate republicans dont fight wars, and mearly criticize those who do. kerry is insane, he brings us vietnam constantly, then gets all bent out of shape about it in the next sentance. this vietnam thing is going to haunt kerry. its prety sad when your main selling point is something you fought against so hard.

Originally posted by Travh20
Everyone is puting his military carrer over his politics, thats the point!
Kerry isn't

they re trying to tell us "never mind he is pro abortion, pro gay marriage, pro UN control over American affairs, he was in a war"
Abortion is a labeling game, I will argue with you on that topic in another thread. For the most part I agree with abortion.
Gay marrage should be legal, but again I will argue with you in another thread.
The UN should be in power and have the power to control all counties in a just and fair manner.

No one is saying to disregard his political standpoints, only you are.

why is this clown any better than any of them? the answer is he is not. in reality he is worse, becasue he came home and stabbed his "comrades" in the back by calling them baby killers and decapitators and all taht other crap.
Your pulling in crap now. He is better suited for being the president because of his POLITICAL career and standpoints. Have you not noticed that??? You talk more than anyone about his days in vietnam.
Pray tell, when did he call his comrades baby killers and decapitators? You are falling into the extremist sites again and taking their word as truth.

the son of a bitch is using his participatiojn in a war he said was genocide and pure evil to get his goals.
Yes it is OK with me. Whether or not the war was right HE EARNED THE RIGHT TO HAVE THOSE HONORS. Are you not even reading what I am writing??? The war was wrong, but HE proved himself when he was over there! He was not in charge of attacking Vietnam ok? Can you understand this? Would you rather have him go AWOL right before the war? Would that raise your opinion of him?

Originally posted by WindWip
Kerry isn't

ya, I have never heard Kerry talk about his time in vietnam:rolleyes:


Originally posted by WindWip Abortion is a labeling game, I will argue with you on that topic in another thread. For the most part I agree with abortion.
Gay marrage should be legal, but again I will argue with you in another thread.
The UN should be in power and have the power to control all counties in a just and fair manner.

abortion is a lableing game. millions of babies have been butchered in a lableing game then. you dont have to tell me you are pro abortion and pro gay marriage, I already knew that. I guess now its time for you to yell at me for putting thoughts in your head right? and as far as the UN goes, it is sad that you would have the UN in power of your own country. you do know that the UN does NOT have the United States best interest in mind right? yet another case of good intentions and politically correct idea winning out over common sense. tell me one thing good the UN has done lately. I mean actually done, not talked about or passed a resolution about it, but actuallly done.


[i]Your pulling in crap now. He is better suited for being the president because of his POLITICAL career and standpoints. Have you not noticed that??? You talk more than anyone about his days in vietnam.
Pray tell, when did he call his comrades baby killers and decapitators? You are falling into the extremist sites again and taking their word as truth

No, I have not noticed that. all I have noticed is bush getting railroadeda bout a non issue with this national guard thing that turned out to not even be true, and a very "serious charge" about kerry completly ignored. the same cahrge agaisnt bush would have been on the news in 5 seconds and we would be hearing about conspiracy and cover ups till we were blue in the face. kerrys denies it, the woman denies it and its all neatly resovled and packaged away. everyone has a big laugh and teh campaign rolls on. he called his comrades and baby killers in front of congress becasue he is a coward. he didnt try to stop the genocide while he watched it, he waited until he got back to toot his own horn in front of congress with some big dumb dramatic speech. I think all you democrats are so awe struck with haveing a big bad war hero who served 4 month in vietnem on your side for once you try to get all the mileage you can out of it, and wind up beating eeryone over the head with t until war hero no longer means anything becasue all you see is john kerry ugly face next to the word day after day. the guy insists on injectign vietnam into EVERYTHING, nd I mean everything.


[/B][/QUOTE] Yes it is OK with me. Whether or not the war was right HE EARNED THE RIGHT TO HAVE THOSE HONORS. Are you not even reading what I am writing??? The war was wrong, but HE proved himself when he was over there! He was not in charge of attacking Vietnam ok? Can you understand this? Would you rather have him go AWOL right before the war? Would that raise your opinion of him? [/B][/QUOTE] :rolleyes: ok General Patton

Originally posted by Travh20
ya, I have never heard Kerry talk about his time in vietnam
Yes he talks of it, but that doesn't mean that he puts it over his political career. You were trying to say that everyone puts his military career over his political career.
abortion is a lableing game. millions of babies have been butchered in a lableing game then.
When are they considered to be alive? They cannot die before they are alive so an abortion before they are living is not a problem. If you really want to go into it, every time you have sex or masterbate you are killing millions of potential babies, just as a woman kills them every time she has her period.
you do know that the UN does NOT have the United States best interest in mind right? yet another case of good intentions and politically correct idea winning out over common sense.
The main reason is because they have so little power, but you believe that they should have invaded Iraq? Especially in search of WMD?
If the US took over the world in one fell swoop would it be a better place?
No, I have not noticed that. all I have noticed is bush getting railroadeda bout a non issue with this national guard thing that turned out to not even be true, and a very "serious charge" about kerry completly ignored.
They did not prove that Bush served his time, all they proved was that he made it up later.
As for Kerry, the whole thing was denied by everyone. No one believes it. There is no reason to, the author of the story made an apology already. Get with the times.
he called his comrades and baby killers in front of congress becasue he is a coward.
WHEN? When did he call them these things. Give me something to go on besides your word.

Originally posted by WindWip


When are they considered to be alive? They cannot die before they are alive so an abortion before they are living is not a problem. If you really want to go into it, every time you have sex or masterbate you are killing millions of potential babies, just as a woman kills them every time she has her period.

oh please. look at it this way, if it growing and developing in the place designed for just such a thing one second, and the next it is a bloody mass being tossed away, you have killed it. just becasue its not wearing a diaper and screaming bloody murder for food desnt mean its not a little human being. masturbating or having a period does not include something growing or developing. when the 2 come together they start a chain reaction that ends with someone like you. if you stop that you have killed whoever it was that that person was to become.

as far as the rest of your post, I am really growing tired of this topic. if you havent read the speech Kerry made before congress upon his return from vietnam look it up, you will see what I was talking about. if you refuse to look it up and continue to imply I am making it up I will do it for you.

Originally posted by es347fan
You don't know diddly when it comes to discussing anything about Vietnam, so just shut your pie hole.
Yeah......whatta drag I've only got access to public-records, huh???? (http://hnn.us/articles/1802.html) :confused:

it is a shame a half baked jackass such as yourself has access to a computer, much less anyone records.

Not quite cut and dry as that Travh. After the two have begun the process of life, there are often natural abortions that happen if the egg is deformed in a way which would hinder it's chances of survival. If the woman does not treat herself well the chances diminish yet again. Would you blame the would-be mother of killing her child because she did not eat well or because she took a drug that she was not supposed to during pregnancy?
It is only that the doctor is a sure thing for an abortion, that seems to be your issue with the whole deal. Are you against the morning after pill as well? What about condoms? They prevent the possibility of a child being born, just as those pills do.

As it stands though, in the beginning of the process of life, the cells have a chance of becoming life. Before when the would-be parents are attempting to concieve, another step back, it is also a chance of becoming life, though less of one. Why do you draw the line at when the egg is fertilized? Why not later? There are clear lines further away as well.

When the child can survive on his own is a common definition of life. The other common definition you have already described. This is what I mean by a labeling game. You will never be able to prove me wrong or prove yourself right and vice versa.

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

Seems to me you are overstating what he said. It appears that he recounted what others had said that they had done. That is entirely different from him saying that they had done those things. You are distorting the truth yet again Travh.

As usual, Shaman, your link has nothing to do with what I posted.

Kerry leads Bush in character ratings.

That's another way of saying people think Kerry is honest.

http://gallup.com/content/?ci=10780

Dop

damn dop its funny you didnt start posting polls ata ll until they started favoring your guy, befoe that they were never seen. but now, every single post refers to some poll.

anyway, windwip, I am not against condoms or birth control, as i feel that is the best way to go. I am agaisnt people who use abortion as birth control. I know you think every single abortion is to "protect the woman", but its not. believe it or not, these so called medical reasons we always hear about include mental health. there are harldy any reasons a woman would need an abortion to save her life. as you said yourself, most of these defective pregnancys take care of themselves. if you hear the words medical reasons and abortion, it is more than likely a bunch of horse shit.

I agree completely. Abortion is used as birth control to a large extent when it should not be. But I also believe that a cell that has no thought process should not be tied to a woman for the rest of her life for a mistake she made when she was 17.

How could a 17 yr old care for a baby, pay her bills and get an education for a better job than working at McDonalds.

Your right about the medical reasons for abortions, thats why I try not to argue that point at all. I don't argue the rape factor either because it just does not cause pregnancy.

ever hear of adoption? there are thousands of couples who desperatly want babies but cant have thier own, thousands! there are lines around the block to get a newborn. why saddle the young girl with the guilt of killing her own baby because it was more convienient?

The majority of folks wanting to adopt want a fair haired, fair skinned infant, or nearly so, who is without major medical problems -- in other words - a trophy kid. Kids resulting from blended relationships, or those with any disabilities need not apply. Those kids wind up being cared for by funded agencies.
Adoption is expensive. The adoption process is very intrusive, and lengthy. You don't just go to the kid store and pick one up.
Without legal abortions these predominantly young women would be forced onto the black market seeking abortions. Simply outlawing abortions won't make them go away, no more than making marijuana illegal makes it go away.