You're the one opening the door regarding discussion of the Jews.
" ... a) stop your support to "israel" ... ".

Ever seriously considered a peaceful resolution? Apparently not. If it weren't for the Jews, who would the Muslims hate? Ever savage & barbaric.

i didnt start i replied to someone about this issue.....The land of Palestine was inhabited by Palestinian Arabs. In 1850 these consisted of approximately 400,000 Muslims, 75,000 Christians, and 25,000 Jews. For centuries these groups had lived in harmony: 80 percent Muslim, 15 percent Christian, 5 percent Jewish...during this time there was no hatred or killing of minorities...and we did think of peace solutions, if study a little harder you will see that it was not arafat but barak who ruined the peace talks in camp david..and sharon also ruined the road map...call islam what you like, but we muslims have not massacred millions and millions.....we are not barbaric in fact i can say that a good muslim is cleaner then any non muslim...have you ever had an operation? the instruments used where created by muslims, but we dont brag about it other wise it would have been common knowledge....AND you still have not answered my question will you fight back? YES OR NO? stop posting in here if you are going to post such things....this room says islam answers back not middle east politics

Originally posted by mehmetinoglu
we are not barbaric in fact i can say that a good muslim is cleaner then any non muslim watch it with the insults...we may see if you can take as good as you give if this keeps up

ok i admit it was wrong from me to post that insult, i thought over it and i can see that it was wrong and insulting....

but if someone curses my faith with out having any knowledge about it, i get mad and sometimes i write things i dont mean...so lets all be polite, and stop this political debate....

Originally posted by mehmetinoglu
ok i admit it was wrong from me to post that insult, i thought over it and i can see that it was wrong and insulting....

but if someone curses my faith with out having any knowledge about it, i get mad and sometimes i write things i dont mean...so lets all be polite, and stop this political debate.... Of course i can understand how someone putting your faith down would upset you. And striking out is only a natural response. You're also right that we should try to keep politics as much out of this discussion as we can. But maybe you do not fully understand the perception of Islam here in the United States. Its hard to seperate the religion from the political for us because a lot of us only know Islam from what we see and hear on the news. And most of that is about suicide bombers blowing up women and children on buses or cafes. So when you are posting about your religion and you bring up the subject of hate, you are only reafirming some peoples already negative opinion of Islam. (or at least Islamic fundamentalists) Not trying to keep the political discussion going, just giving you a little perspective on some of our views.

a muslim who becomes a khafir (disbeliever) if one of these things take place the muslim has said/done/thaught (see page 3 for explanation)...the khafir must immedeatly reenter islam, to anguish his sin and promise never to do it again...if he doesnt know that he is a khafir then it is a muslim duty to advice him to become a mulim again...if he doesnt reenter islam after the muslims has adviced him, the khilafa can execute him, providing he has the testemonies from two ^Adl (meaning very very good muslims who live entirely according to islam), or the confession of the disbeliever...when a muslim becomes a disbeliever, these things will be canceled...the fast, the cleaning, the marriage before and after intercource,, his marriage does not end with a muslim wife or non muslim wife if he reenters islam with in a certain amount of time (the time limit is according to the woman, the limit ends if the woman has more then 3 periods and the man has not reentered islam, or if the woman is pregnant and the man still has not reentered islam after she gives birth), it is forbidden to eat from the animal he has slaughtered, he doent get anything from a the will of a dead family member, he doesnt recieve the prayer for the dead, nor does his body recieve the washing for the dead or clothed in the cloth for the dead, he doesnt get buried in a muslim graveyard und his proberty will be used for muslims after he died

Originally posted by mehmetinoglu
i have posted before and i will post it again, that while saddam was bad it is not your problem, the people of iraq would have gotten rid of him, just like the people of iran got rid of their dictator...

This is where you're wrong. If Sadaam took over the Middle East, he would control a very large portion of the worldwide oil exports. Since the U.S. and much of the rest of the world is dependant on oil imports, this would be a HUGE PROBLEM for the U.S. and the rest of the world.

As for depending on the people of Iraq to overthrow him, you are being unrealistic. There are many instances in history where the civilian population has been unable to overthrow a dictator. You can not reasonably expect the U.S. to sit idly by and hope that happens. There are HUNDREDS of countries that agreed with that position.

america and the west needs oil, yes but your not dependant on it (seriously you and i and every other sane person knows that we will not die if we couldnt get oil or something similar)...and you are not dependant on oil from muslim lands, your own country, russia and the scandinawian countries and other countries (countries in central asia) produces enough oil together for the needs of the western countries....and no matter what reason the americans had to invade and occupie Iraq, there is no justfication of the death of the iraqi people that could have been avoided...lets end this debate here, as this is not a political section

Originally posted by mehmetinoglu
america and the west needs oil, yes but your not dependant on it (seriously you and i and every other sane person knows that we will not die if we couldnt get oil or something similar)...and you are not dependant on oil from muslim lands, your own country, russia and the scandinawian countries and other countries (countries in central asia) produces enough oil together for the needs of the western countries....and no matter what reason the americans had to invade and occupie Iraq, there is no justfication of the death of the iraqi people that could have been avoided...lets end this debate here, as this is not a political section

You are the one who started making rash accusations against the U.S., so don't try and act like this is off topic now. So you would have the U.S. just junk everything it has built upon it's dependence on oil trade to protect Sadaam Hussein? That is nothing short of just plain idiotic.

And the deaths of the Iraqi people COULD NOT be avoided. When Sadaam invaded Kuwait, many, many, many innocent people were going to die, no matter what. You need to place blame where it belongs: on Sadaam Hussein.

The REAL problem is that countries of the Middle East cannot establish a political system that protects against tyranny and injustice, which is probably due to the prevelance of your prejudiced, senseless, and cruel religion.

Don't you ever wonder why the people of the Middle East constantly live among poverty and violence, while America, Europe, and Asia live in relative stability?

i did not accuse, i responded....and i dont accuse with no information... and i said you could get your oil from other countries (did you even bother to read what i posted?).. i doubt you ever been to the middle east cause the countries there are not some poor countries, but countries with a rich civilisation..many educated people....so say what you want about saddam and us muslims and fell free to think that your goverment did us muslim a favour by dropping bombs and sanctioning our lands, thats your oppinion...but let the political talk stop here, since obviously we cant agree....

every responsible muslim must anguish/regret immedeatly, and to promise never to them again.
if you have sinned in something you must do, you must do what ever it was, for example fasting, again after you have regreted the sin. If the sin is connected to a person, you must ask for forgivness to that person and try to make it up to him.

here is an example on how to deal according to islam

it is unlawful (haram) to do, consume, take, write down, or be a witness to usurious gain (riba). The riba comprises the following...

1. Selling gold for silver and silver for gold, gold for gold; or silver for silver--whether coined or not, made into jewelry, the ore itself, or other than that--with the condition of postponing the payment;
2. Selling the aforementioned items with the buyer or seller leaving one another before exchanging the payments;
3. Selling gold for gold or silver for silver with inequality in weight;
4. In the case of selling food for other food: It is not lawful to sell one type of food for another, such as wheat for barley, if one includes the condition of postponing the payment or if the buyer or seller leave one another before exchanging payments. in the case of similar types of food, such as wheat for wheat, one must avoid the aforementioned two conditions along with inequality. Hence, it is not lawful to sell barley for barley if there is inequality in volume, or the condition of postponing the payment is included, or the buyer and seller leave one another before exchanging payment.

It is unlawful (haram) to sell:

1. What one has not received;
2. Meat for living animals;
3. The debt for another, such as for one to sell what "Zayd" owes him to "^Amr" for a price to be paid after a month.
4. What one does not own or is not authorized to sell;
5. What one did not see. According to a saying of ash-Shafi^iyy, if the merchandise was described, then this selling would be allowed;
6. What cannot be delivered;
7. What has no benefit;
8. What is not owned by one, such as the free person and unowned land;
9. The unknown;
10. The najas-filthy materials, such as blood;
11. Every intoxicant;
12. Unlawful articles, such as the tunbur, (a musical instrument which resembles the lute);
13. The lawful (halal) and pure article to whom you know will disobey Allah with it, like selling grapes to the one who will make alcohol out of them and a weapon to the one who will assault people with it;
14. Intoxicating substances;
15. The defective article without showing its defects.

The selling by and to the non-accountable is invalid, so the selling by the insane and non-pubescent is invalid. According to the school (madhhab) of Imam Ahmad, the selling by and to the child who attained the age of mental discrimination (mumayyiz) is allowed (if permitted by his guardian).

According to some scholars, it is also invalid to sell anything without exchanging an appropriate verbal format from both parties. According to others, the mutual consent of both parties is enough.

Useful information:
It is invalid to divide the inheritance of a deceased person or to sell the inheritance until the debts and the will have been fulfilled. Something may be sold to pay off a debt or fulfill the will. The expenses of performing Hajj and ^Umrah on behalf of the deceased must be taken out if the Hajj and ^Umrah were obligatory on him and he did not perform them. The inheritance is like a collateral held for that purpose. This is similar to the case of a slave who stole an amount of one-sixth of a dirham (daniq); selling him is invalid until what is due on him has been paid--unless the creditor gives permission to sell him.
After establishing the price, it is unlawful (haram) for one to weaken the desire of the buyer or the seller with the purpose of selling to the buyer or buying from the seller. If this act is done after the contract has been conducted and during the period of choice of canceling the sale, it is more sinful.
It is unlawful (haram) to buy food when it is expensive and needed in order to hoard it and sell it later for a higher price.
It is unlawful (haram) to bid a higher price for an article in order to deceive another.
It is unlawful (haram) to separate the female slave from her child before the child is at the age of mental discrimination (mumayyiz).
It is unlawful (haram) to lie, cheat, or betray in measuring articles by volume, weight, arm length, or count.
It is unlawful (haram) to lend money to the buyer with the condition to sell him cotton, for example, at a higher price for the sake of the loan. It is unlawful (haram) to lend money to the tailor or any other hired person with the condition to hire that person for less than the going rate for the sake of that loan. It is unlawful (haram) to lend money to the farmers with the condition the farmers sell the loaners their harvest at a slightly lower price.
Many other dealings of the people of this time, are also unlawful (haram) i.e., they are Islamically illegal. Hence, the one who seeks the reward from Allah, subhanah, and his safety in the Hereafter and in this life, must learn what is lawful (halal) and what is unlawful (haram) from a scholar who is pious, sincere, and caring for his Religion. Seeking the lawful (halal) is obligatory upon every Muslim.

Did Mohammed speak of finding the inner-self as a pathway to heaven.

yes he did...
the prophet Muhammad (saws) spoke of the great Jihad, thats in everybody, the Jihad in yourself...the smaller Jihad is the phsyical fighting against your enemies, the greater Jihad is the battle against evil in yourself...one who wins the great Jihad has a better chance to enter paradice then ones who doesnt win..(very few people have garanties to enter paradice or hell, only Allah (st) can decide who will enter paradice and who will enter hell, except those who Allah (st) has decided before judgement day)...

Thanks

The one who is solvent is obligated to support his poor parents and grandparents even if they were able to earn their living. He is also obligated to support his descendants, i.e., his children and grandchildren who are poor and cannot earn their living or who are non-pubescent or who are unable to earn their living because of some ailment.

The husband is obligated to support his wife and pay her marriage payment (mahr). If he divorces his wife without a reason from her, he must give her a gift (mut^ah).

The owner of slaves and animals must support them, must not charge them with more work than they can bear, and must not beat them unjustly.

Obligations of the Wife...

The wife is obligated to obey her husband in allowing him to enjoy her body except in what is not lawful. Without her husband's permission, she cannot fast the optional fasting or leave his house.

I have another question about Islam now. Are there many people who convert to Islam from other religion or from having no religion to start with? It seems to me most of Muslims have always been Muslims, is that correct?

In Christianity as far as I know, people are constantly being converted to it, and at the same time many Christians stop believe in Christianity and leave the religion. Basically, everyday a lot of people get into it and equally lot of people get out of it.

yes there are many reverts to islam (in islam we are thaught that all people are born as muslims, but later has the choice to either follow islam or leave islam when they reach the age of understanding), in fact when islam is the fastest growing religion not only by birthrate but also by reverts, personally I know four reverts...it is very very rare that a muslim leaves his fate, since the typical muslim put islam first..i will give you site where people who reverted to islam tells their story

http://www.thetruereligion.org/converts.htm

bear in mind that i dont want to shove islam to other peoples throat, so read it with a clear mind

Originally posted by mehmetinoglu
a muslim who becomes a khafir (disbeliever) if one of these things take place the muslim has said/done/thaught (see page 3 for explanation)...the khafir must immedeatly reenter islam, to anguish his sin and promise never to do it again...if he doesnt know that he is a khafir then it is a muslim duty to advice him to become a mulim again...if he doesnt reenter islam after the muslims has adviced him, the khilafa can execute him....

No one ever leaves Islam, eh? I wonder why? Maybe it's because you believe he should be subject to execution if he does.

This policy kindof reminds me of an ancient cure for headaches that was said to always work.....That is, if someone had a headache, bash their head in. Oddly, this cure always cured a society of headaches.

In much the same, idiotic way, your religion has found a cure for disbelievers.

Face it, mehmetinoglu, your religion as you describe it will always produce a society full of fear, despair, and poverty.

The above just led me to ask the following question: I wonder if there is any at least fairly well known religion other than Islam that states a disbeliever "should be executed." I personally don't know of any.

my religion will always make the followers live in fear and poverty?
have you ever been to a country that is islamic? i think not, other wise you would not have written these silly things...go and find a history book and see how the barbaric arab countries become civilised countries through islam..also you should find some information about about malaysia or the untied arab emirates...in my homecountry (Turkey) noone locks their doors and strangers are often invited to tea, over here in Denmark, and in Germany (where i stayed for a couple of years) none of my neighbors invited me for coffe or tea, and they all lock their doors, who is more afraid then? you talk with nothing to support your silly statements

well christinaty had the inqusition and they also burned lots of women and men accusing them for sorcery...i dont know about other religions, but in europe in the old days lots of people where killed in the name of christianity

yes, Mehmet is right on that point. In Europe during the Renaissance there have been lots of people killed for their religion.

I have a question for you, Mehmet : are you shiite or sunnite ?

I meant to ask "today". I wonder what well-known religion today executes people (or has the power to legally do so at all).

Capitalism, communism.

The owner of slaves and animals ....and must not beat them unjustly.

It's OK to beat them, but not unjustly!?!?

Where do I sign up for this religion. :rolleyes:

That would be comical if it weren't so sad.

On a more serious note. A lot of these rules are not dissimilar to the type of nonsense you see in cults. They are about limiting contact with the outside world. Many of these rules may have been more appropriate 1000 years ago. Much like the rules regarding kosher (ironic isn't it how similar these two people are yet they can't get along). They are trying to preserve a world and lifestyle that no longer exists. If followed precisely it actually impedes their advancement. In order to deal with the advances created by science and commerce they are forced into convoluted rationalizations.

That's not to say that Islam is bad. There are many good and worthwhile things in these rules too. Just not my cup of tea.

Thx mehm for the info.

i am a muslim who follows the sunnah, meaning sunni

i dont know any other religions who executes.....

Performing Hajj and ^Umrah once in a lifetime is obligatory upon the Muslim who is free, accountable, and can afford to reach Makkah and return to his homeplace. This includes that one has in excess of his debts, appropriate lodging and clothing, and what he is obligated to spend on those whom he must support from his departure until his return.....

The integrals of Hajj are:

1. To have the intention to be in a state of pilgrimage (Ihram), i.e., to say in one's heart: "I now enter into the actions of Hajj" or the like;
2. To be at ^Arafah sometime between the start of Dhuhr on the 9th of Dhul-Hijjah and the dawn (fajr) of the following day.
3. To circumambulate the Ka^bah (tawaf);
4. To walk between the mounts of as-Safa and al-Marwah seven times from one border line to the other;
5. Cutting the hair by shaving or trimming (halq or taqsir);
6. The order in most of the integrals.

All of these are integrals of ^Umrah except to be at ^Arafah. These integrals have requisites (wajibs) and conditions that must be observed.

Among the conditions of tawaf is to circumambulate the Ka^bah seven times starting at the Black Stone and back to it while keeping one's left shoulder towards the Ka^bah without facing or turning one's back to it; to cover the unlawful nakedness (^awrah); and to be pure.....

It is unlawful for the one who has intended to enter into the actions of pilgrimage (Hajj or ^Umrah):

1. To wear perfumes;
2. To anoint the head or beard with oil, melted grease, or melted honey wax;
3. To remove fingernails, toenails, and hair;
4. To perform sexual intercourse or its inviting actions;
5. To conduct marriage and if done, the marriage is invalid;
6. To hunt any Islamically edible wild animal;
7. In the case of a man: to cover the head or wear clothes that are sewn, felted, or the like, to surround the body ;
8. In the case of a woman: to cover the face and to wear gloves.

The one who does any of these unlawful matters has sinned. An expiation (fidyah) is obligatory for committing these matters with the exception of conducting marriage and looking lustfully. In the case of sexual intercourse; one's Hajj is invalidated, but one is obligated to complete this invalidated Hajj and re-perform it immediately, i.e., the one who invalidates one's Hajj by performing sexual intercourse continues with the Hajj, does not interrupt it, then makes it up in the coming year if he is able.

It is a requisite for the one who has intended to enter into the actions of pilgrimage (Hajj or ^Umrah):

1. To have the intention of ihram before crossing the site prescribed for it (miqat). The miqat is the place the Messenger of Allah specified as the starting site of the intention of ihram such as the land called Dhul-Hulayfah for the people of al-Madinah and those who take the same route to Makkah;
2. To stay at night in Muzdalifah and Mina during Hajj. This is according to a saying of ash-Shafi^iyy. However, it is not a requisite according to another saying of ash-Shafi^iyy;
3. To throw pebbles at the station of Jamrat-ul-^Aqabah on the day of the Feast of Adha (^Id-ul-'Adha);
4. To throw pebbles at the three stations of jamrahs during the days of Tashriq;
5. To perform the farewell circumambulation before leaving Makkah (tawaf-ul-wada^) according to a saying in the school (madhhab) of ash-Shafi^iyy.

The one who does not fulfill these six matters does not invalidate one's Hajj, although one is sinful and must perform an expiation (fidyah). This is different from the one who does not perform an integral, because if one leaves out an integral of Hajj then one's Hajj is not valid and slaughtering an animal will not compensate for it.

It is unlawful for one whether or not he is in a state of ihram to hunt the animals of Makkah and al-Madinah, or to cut or pick their plants. If this was done in Makkah, then the obligation of performing the expiation (fidyah) is added. There is no expiation (fidyah) due for hunting the animals or cutting the plants in al-Madinah, i.e., the area between Mount ^Ayr and Mount Thawr.

Originally posted by mehmetinoglu
my religion will always make the followers live in fear and poverty?
have you ever been to a country that is islamic? i think not, other wise you would not have written these silly things...go and find a history book and see how the barbaric arab countries become civilised countries through islam..also you should find some information about about malaysia or the untied arab emirates...in my homecountry (Turkey) noone locks their doors and strangers are often invited to tea, over here in Denmark, and in Germany (where i stayed for a couple of years) none of my neighbors invited me for coffe or tea, and they all lock their doors, who is more afraid then? you talk with nothing to support your silly statements

Lol, I wouldn't invite you over for coffee or tea either since you'd want me executed for being a "nonbeliever". The Germans and Danes were the smart ones for keeping a disease like you out of their homes.

And I didn't say "followers" would live in fear and poverty. It's the "followers" of your faith that would be making everyone else live in fear and poverty.

Originally posted by Leper
Lol, I wouldn't invite you over for coffee or tea either since you'd want me executed for being a "nonbeliever". The Germans and Danes were the smart ones for keeping a disease like you out of their homes.

And I didn't say "followers" would live in fear and poverty. It's the "followers" of your faith that would be making everyone else live in fear and poverty.

Well Leper, you'd better burnish your chainmail and sharpen your broadsword in preparation for the next crusade against the Muslim hordes... :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Well Leper, you'd better burnish your chainmail and sharpen your broadsword in preparation for the next crusade against the Muslim hordes... :rolleyes:
Leper must get his chainmail from Blib.

...seriously, he makes chainmail!

Originally posted by BorgHunter
...seriously, he makes chainmail!

Oh my.:@@:

i guess you did not look up the history books...well i will give you some more details look up the history of spain when it was under muslim rule for over 700 years, see if the non muslims lived in poverty like you said....

unlike you the danes and the germans have a way better understanding of islam, in the city where i stayed in germany, Bremen, they even had a week dedicated to islam for a better dialoge....in denmark they even have a tv show where people of other religions answer question from phone callers, these people the germans and christians have known muslim during war times and peace times i think they have a better idea what islam is then you think they have....

It is obligatory to perform five prayers throughout the day and the night. These are:

The Noon Prayer (Dhuhr). (Four (4) rak^ahs): Its time begins when the sun has declined westward from the middle of the sky and remains until the length of the shadow of an object becomes equal to that of the object per se, in addition to the length of the shadow of that object when the sun was at its zenith.
The Mid-afternoon Prayer (^Asr). (Four (4) rak^ahs): Its time begins after Dhuhr ends, and remains until sunset.
The Sunset Prayer (Maghrib). (Three (3) rak^ahs): Its time begins after sunset, i.e., when ^Asr ends, and remains until the disappearance of the redness in the western horizon.
The Nightfall Prayer (^Isha'). (Four (4) rak^ahs): Its time begins when Maghrib time ends and remains until the appearance of the true dawn (Fajr Sadiq).
The Dawn Prayer (Subh). (Two (2) rak^ahs): Its time begins after ^Isha' time and remains until sunrise (Shuruq).
These obligatory prayers must be performed in their due times by every Muslim who is pubescent, sane, and pure. Without an excuse, it is unlawful to perform these prayers ahead of their times or to delay performing these prayers until after their times have passed. If something prohibitive, such as menses, occurs after a time which was enough to perform the prayer, then one must make up that missed prayer. In the case of incontinence of urine, if the prohibitive thing occurs after a time which was enough to perform the prayer and its purification (taharah), then one must make up that missed prayer. If, on the other hand, the prohibitive thing terminates and time enough to say 'Allahu akbar' is left, then one must make up that prayer and the one before it if they are combinable; so if the prohibitive thing terminates before sunset while there is enough time to say 'Allahu akbar', then both ^Asr and Dhuhr must be prayed. If it terminates before Fajr begins while there is time enough to say 'Allahu akbar', then both ^Isha' and Maghrib must be prayed.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Well Leper, you'd better burnish your chainmail and sharpen your broadsword in preparation for the next crusade against the Muslim hordes... :rolleyes:

I get your point. I should be more tolerant of the belief that people like me (and you for that matter) should be executed and slavery should be condoned. Good idea.

Maybe while I'm at it, I'll have a celebration for KKK advocates, skinheads, and gaybashers. We aren't openminded enough toward such groups.

Originally posted by Leper
I get your point. I should be more tolerant of the belief that people like me (and you for that matter) should be executed and slavery should be condoned. Good idea.
The Bible condones slavery and pointless executions just like the Qur'an.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
The Bible condones slavery and pointless executions just like the Qur'an.

It does?

What happened to thou shalt not kill?:(

Tolerance - the big issue.
I think that it should apply to people but not to dangerous ideologies or religions.
The problem for Islam is that, while some of its aspects are clearly unpleasants (as most religions have unpleasant aspects), most muslims in fact do not put the emphasis upon these aspects.

It is obligatory upon the guardian of a child who reached the age of mental discrimination (mumayyiz) to order him to perform prayer, to teach him the rules of prayer after he has completed seven lunar years, and to hit him for not performing prayer after ten lunar years of age. The same is done in the case of fasting--if the child can bear fasting. Moreover, the guardian must teach the child what is obligatory and what is unlawful of the basic beliefs and rules, the rewardability of the toothstick (siwak), and congregational prayers (jama^ah); and must order him accordingly. It is obligatory upon every Muslim to order his family to perform prayer. It is obligatory on the Muslim rulers to kill the person who out of laziness does not pray, if he does not repent; the judgement of such a person is that he is a Muslim. It is obligatory on every Muslim to order his family and everyone else he is able to order with prayers if they do not pray.

Originally posted by waldo
It does?

Yes Waldo it does...
Slavery:
Exodus 21
1 Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.
2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.
4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

Execution:
Leviticus 20
10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

What happened to thou shalt not kill?:(

It's a fine sentiment, unfortunately it's uttered all too infrequently in the Bible.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Yes Waldo it does...
Slavery:
Exodus 21
1 Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.
2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.
4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

Execution:
Leviticus 20
10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.


It's a fine sentiment, unfortunately it's uttered all too infrequently in the Bible.

The difference is that Christians today don't espouse those portions of the Bible, with near the frequency of "Thou shallt not kill." I'm not criticizing the Quran nearly as much as I'm criticizing the Islamic faith as met endorses it.

Originally posted by astrapol2
Tolerance - the big issue.
I think that it should apply to people but not to dangerous ideologies or religions.
The problem for Islam is that, while some of its aspects are clearly unpleasants (as most religions have unpleasant aspects), most muslims in fact do not put the emphasis upon these aspects.

I agree with this sentiment.

Using the same or similar logic, I don't believe mehmetinoglu derserves the tolerant attitude you guys present to him. Some ideologies are facially immoral and evil, and I think his clearly is.

I mean, if it were Charles Manson (sp?) in here telling you who should die and be enslaved, would you respond with ridiculously nice responses like "Please tell us more about your belief system." and "Thank you for sharing your views." The friendly response mehmetinoglu is getting makes me gag.

It's the same sort of response you hear from Palestinian sympathists (Typically liberals). No matter how you cut it, intentionally blowing up civilians is grossly immoral and shouldn't be tolerated, just as mehmetinoglu's beliefs are immoral and shouldn't be tolerated.

Originally posted by Leper
I agree with this sentiment.

Using the same or similar logic, I don't believe mehmetinoglu derserves the tolerant attitude you guys present to him. Some ideologies are facially immoral and evil, and I think his clearly is.

I mean, if it were Charles Manson (sp?) in here telling you who should die and be enslaved, would you respond with ridiculously nice responses like "Please tell us more about your belief system." and "Thank you for sharing your views." The friendly response mehmetinoglu is getting makes me gag.

It's the same sort of response you hear from Palestinian sympathists (Typically liberals). No matter how you cut it, intentionally blowing up civilians is grossly immoral and shouldn't be tolerated, just as mehmetinoglu's beliefs are immoral and shouldn't be tolerated.

Mehmet has said that the murder of innocent civilians is wrong. There is nothing wrong with thanking Mehmet for coming here and sharing his views, after all he didn't have to do it he is sharing his views voluntarily. I will also point out that he has made no attempt to convince you, that you should be a Muslim. You don't have to share his beliefs or even understand them to respect his right to believe them. You may believe that his beliefs are immoral and I might even share that belief about some aspects of his religion, but neither one of us has been appointed moral arbiter of the world.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Mehmet has said that the murder of innocent civilians is wrong. There is nothing wrong with thanking Mehmet for coming here and sharing his views, after all he didn't have to do it he is sharing his views voluntarily. I will also point out that he has made no attempt to convince you, that you should be a Muslim. You don't have to share his beliefs or even understand them to respect his right to believe them. You may believe that his beliefs are immoral and I might even share that belief about some aspects of his religion, but neither one of us has been appointed moral arbiter of the world. However, this forum is for opinions. I dont see Leper trying to say Mehmet shouldnt be able to post here. He just said it makes him ill to see people bending over backwards to be "overly" nice for no reason. His religion teaches intolerance of anything that is not muslim. It is my(and Leper's) right to say that i find his teachings abhorrent.

Come on Vile, i dont see you defending my religion when it is attacked on this forum. And i am not accusing you of doing so either. YOu have been fairly tolerant of christianity in general. But for some reason you seem to feel you have to defend Mehmet's beliefs. :confused:

Originally posted by HaVoK
However, this forum is for opinions. I dont see Leper trying to say Mehmet shouldnt be able to post here. He just said it makes him ill to see people bending over backwards to be "overly" nice for no reason. His religion teaches intolerance of anything that is not muslim. It is my(and Leper's) right to say that i find his teachings abhorrent.

While Leper didn't say that mehmet should not be allowed to post here he did say this:

No matter how you cut it, intentionally blowing up civilians is grossly immoral and shouldn't be tolerated, just as mehmetinoglu's beliefs are immoral and shouldn't be tolerated.

My point is that I can thank Mehmet for sharing his beliefs without endorsing those beliefs in any way.

Come on Vile, i dont see you defending my religion when it is attacked on this forum. And i am not accusing you of doing so either. YOu have been fairly tolerant of christianity in general. But for some reason you seem to feel you have to defend Mehmet's beliefs. :confused:

Again I'm not defending his beliefs, just his right to have them. I personally feel that all fundamentalist religious thought is a curse upon humanity, whether it be Muslim, Christian, Hindu or whatever. Fundamentalism breeds intolerance, hatred, and violence, all in the name of one God or another. I don't like fundamentalist religious thought, but I do believe it is a person's right to have their opinions. I've never suggested that Christians don't have a right to express their opinions, and when Leper said that Mehmet's beliefs "are immoral and shouldn't be tolerated" I had to disagree.

His religion teaches intolerance of anything that is not muslim.
Same thing with the bible. I'll quote from what Vile quoted!
"2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing."
What about Samaritans? Or people who aren't Hebrew. It was extrapolated later to include christians as hebrews, and anybody else a slave for life. As seen with the treatment of English servants in America compared to slaves.
Just letting you know that it isn't only the Muslim religion.

I mean, if it were Charles Manson
Hey, he's an intelligent man!

"You can take a pile of rocks and use them to build a house, or you can take the same pile and start a war. Tell children not to throw rocks, make rules against picking up rocks, and then make them mad. Keep projecting what not to do and you make the thought in their brains of what can and will be done."
Charles Manson, in an open letter to President Reagan, 198

"You can convince anyone of anything if you just push it at them 100% of the time. They may not believe it completely, but they will still use it to form opinions, especially if they have nothing else to draw on."
Charles Manson

"You know, a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy."
Charles Manson

"You made your children what they are.... These children that come at you with knives, they are your children. You taught them. I didn't teach them. I just tried to help them stand up.... You can project it back at me, but I am only what lives inside each and every one of you. My father is your system.... I am only what you made me. I am a reflection of you. You made your children what they are.... These children that come at you with knives, they are your children. You taught them. I didn't teach them. I just tried to help them stand up.... You can project it back at me, but I am only what lives inside each and every one of you. My father is your system.... I am only what you made me. I am a reflection of you."
Charles Manson

"If they scared of ya and they say that you're big and your bad and your tough and you got guns, they all wanna be like you, you're just a wonderful human being"
Charles Manson

"Be yourself. Exactly what you are. Take away the hate, take away the fear, take away the frustrations. And you probably lie everyday in your fucking life, but there's one person you dont lie to, and that's yourself. You can't lie to yourself, and I'm more yourself than you realize, nahahaha"
Charles Manson

"Beleive me. If I started murdering you people, there'd be none of you left."
Charles Manson

"When you go to war, against an enemy, you go to war for god and country, and you give your life to that cause."
Charles Manson

"Stop cutting the children out of their life. And telling them, get off the phone, don't do this, you can't hear that. You hide it from them, hide that from them. They gotta find it sooner or later, one way or another. You did, didn't you, and you found it to be so god damn miserable when it got you here because someone had hid it from you. Thats why you got in the mess you're in, somebody hid the truth."
Charles Manson

"They don't have any intelligence to change, once you get them 'huh!' they go 'huh!' for the rest of their lives. 'huh! huh!' They'll do that for a paycheck, 'huh! huh!'. You tell them dont do that no more, and they go 'huh?' Theres no communication, you tell them like stop doing htat 'huh! huh!'. I said stop it, and they'll go 'huh!' until you cut through their fucking throat and throw blood in their faces and they're going 'huh! huh!'. See you know what I'm saying, no intelligence man."
Charles Manson

"If you're gonna do something, leave something with you. If you're gonna do something, do it well. Leave somthing with you, leave a sign for the world to know you were there."
Charles Manson

My quote collection from him :D. I have lots of quotes, hehe, yay for me. He's only slightly crazy. :lolhit:

Says a lot about what type person you are to be reverently quoting a scumbag who ordered a baby to be ripped from its mothers womb. I dont know which of you is the bigger piece of shit.

Wow Blib, what an interesting bunch of quotes from a psychopath.

Says a lot about what type person you are to be reverently quoting a scumbag who ordered a baby to be ripped from its mothers womb. I dont know which of you is the bigger piece of shit.
Reverently quoting? You misunderstand, I don't admire him at all, I said he was intelligent, nothing more. And I have a bunch of quotes, some funny, some require thinking. The man was crazy, obviously, but he was also a genius. Same with that one other serial killer who was a super genius, the one who escaped from jail a couple of times, was only caught when he wanted to die.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Says a lot about what type person you are to be reverently quoting a scumbag who ordered a baby to be ripped from its mothers womb. I dont know which of you is the bigger piece of shit.
Reverently quoting? You misunderstand, I don't admire him at all, I said he was intelligent, nothing more. And I have a bunch of quotes, some funny, some require thinking. The man was crazy, obviously, but he was also a genius. Same with that one other serial killer who was a super genius, the one who escaped from jail a couple of times, was only caught when he wanted to die.

Not sure what Charles Manson has to do with the topic at hand or religion either for that matter...

Ablution (Wudu') is one of the conditions of prayer.

Integrals of Ablution (Wudu'):

The integrals of ablution are six:

1. To have the intention of purification (taharah) for prayer--or any equivalent intention--when the water first touches the face, according to Imam ash-Shafi^iyy. However, according to Imam Malik, it is enough if the intention preceded washing the face by a short time;
2. To wash the whole face, from the normal hairline to the chin and from one ear to the other including the hair and skin, but not the inner part of the man's beard when the hair therein is thick;
3. To wash the hands and the forearms up to and including the elbows and what is on them;4. To wet wipe the head or part of it--even if it is only one hair--within the boundary of the head;
5. To wash the feet with the ankles included, or else to wet wipe the footgear (khuff) when the conditions of the footgear are fulfilled;
6. To observe the aforementioned order.

Invalidators of Ablution (Wudu'): Ablution is invalidated by:

1. The emission of anything from the eliminatory outlets, except maniyy;1
2. Touching the penis, vagina, or anus of a human with the inside part of the bare hand;
3. Touching the skin of the marriageable woman who attained to an age at which she is normally desired;
4. Losing consciousness, except if one is sleeping with his buttocks firmly seated.

what does marilyn manson have to do with islam???

Originally posted by mehmetinoglu
what does marilyn manson have to do with islam???
And you call youself a Muslim. No virgins in heaven for you! :D

Originally posted by BorgHunter
And you call youself a Muslim. No virgins in heaven for you! :D Thats kind of harsh Borg. :(

Originally posted by HaVoK
Thats kind of harsh Borg. :(
Harsh? Okay then, he can have one. :drinktoth

i wrote a mistake what i meant to write is what does charles manson have to do with islam???
and what are trying to imply borghunter? that i should drink beer?

Istinja' is obligatory after the emission of any wet material from the eliminatory outlets, except maniyy. Istinja' is performed with water by rinsing the soiled area until it becomes pure, or else one must wipe the soiled area thrice or more until the area is clean (although a trace that can only be removed with water may be left), with an uprooting, pure, solid, and unrespectable material such as a stone or paper. Istinja' may be performed in this way even if water is present provided the wet filth (najasah) is not displaced or dried before cleaning it or else water must be used.

Originally posted by mehmetinoglu
and what are trying to imply borghunter? that i should drink beer?
I'm just making a joke. A rather bad one at that. Carry on. :)

Originally posted by BorgHunter
I'm just making a joke. A rather bad one at that. Carry on. :) You seem to make a lot of inopportune comments when religion is involved. Maybe you're just uncomfortable with anyone who has a belief system, considering you dont have one. Just a thought.

Originally posted by HaVoK
You seem to make a lot of inopportune comments when religion is involved. Maybe you're just uncomfortable with anyone who has a belief system, considering you dont have one. Just a thought.
No, I just make jokes in general at moments when I shouldn't. It's a personality trait that's offended a few people (unintentionally), but I don't expect everyone to have my twisted sense of humor. I make fun of myself all the time too.

By the way, a belief system does not necessarily indicate religion. For example, I believe abortion is not murder. (No one take that as an invite to threadjack this into an abortion debate, please.) That and lots of other beliefs make up my belief system, which includes a lack of belief on a spiritual level. Make sense? Perhaps I'm being overly concerned with semantics, but I still felt the need to distinguish between the two.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
No, I just make jokes in general at moments when I shouldn't. It's a personality trait that's offended a few people (unintentionally), but I don't expect everyone to have my twisted sense of humor. I make fun of myself all the time too.

By the way, a belief system does not necessarily indicate religion. For example, I believe abortion is not murder. (No one take that as an invite to threadjack this into an abortion debate, please.) That and lots of other beliefs make up my belief system, which includes a lack of belief on a spiritual level. Make sense? Perhaps I'm being overly concerned with semantics, but I still felt the need to distinguish between the two. Considering that this IS the religion forum, i assumed you would understand i meant lack of belief system to pertain to religion.

Originally posted by HaVoK
Considering that this IS the religion forum, i assumed you would understand i meant lack of belief system to pertain to religion.
I've seen threads in the Religion forum go from atheism to Mopo fighting bears. It's happened a lot, actually. This is Allforums, remember, home of the meandering threads. :)

Now let's stop threadjacking mehmetinoglu's thread, who is only trying to educate us on the religion of Islam...in particular how to wipe your ass...dammit there I go again! :D

Among the conditions of prayer is purification from the state of major ritual impurity (hadath akbar) by performing the purificatory bath. Dry purification (tayammum) is performed when one cannot perform ghusl. One is required to perform the purificatory bath after any of these five things occur:

1. The emission of maniyy;
2. Sexual intercourse;
3. Termination of menses (hayd);
4. Termination of postpartum bleeding (nifas);
5. Childbirth.


Integrals of the Purificatory Bath (Ghusl)

The integrals of the purificatory bath are two:

1. To have the intention to clear oneself of the state of major ritual impurity (hadath akbar) or a similar intention;
2. To wash the whole body with water, including the skin and the hair even if it is thick.

The conditions of purification (taharah) are:

1. To be Muslim;
2. To be at the age of mental discrimination (mumayyiz);
3. To remove anything which prevents water from reaching the part to be washed;
4. To let the water flow on the part to be washed;
5. To use purifying water, i.e., water that has not changed by being mixed with a pure material, such as milk or ink, from which the water can be shielded. If the water changes because of its mixing with something in such a way that it is not called water anymore, then this water is not good for purification. However, if the water changes because of its mixing with things which are in its original place or its pathway or the like, and from which this water cannot be easily shielded, then this does not affect the purifying property of this water. Moreover, the water must not have changed because of its contact with a najas-filth even if the change was inappreciable. If the water was less than two qullahs,1 an unexempted najas-filth must not have contacted it even if it does not change the water, and it must not have been used already in clearing someone of a ritual impurity (hadath), and it must not have been used to remove a najas-filth.

If one needs to pray but he is in a state of ritual impurity (hadath), and one cannot find water or would be harmed upon using it, one performs dry purification (tayammum). Tayammum is performed after the time of prayer sets in and after the unexempted najas-filth is removed. Tayammum is performed by using unmixed soil, which is purifying and dusty. One strikes the soil with the inside part of the hands and makes the intention of performing tayammum while transferring the dust of the soil from the ground until it is wiped on part of the face. One wipes the entire face and then strikes the soil a second time to wipe the hands and forearms.

The one who invalidated his wudu' is prohibited to perform prayer, circumambulate the Ka^bah, and to carry or touch the Book of the Qur'an (Mushaf). However, the child who has reached the age of mental discrimination (mumayyiz) and is studying in the Book of the Qur'an is allowed to carry it and touch it without wudu'.

It is unlawful for the person who emitted maniyy (junub) to do the aforementioned, and also to recite the Qur'an, or stay in a mosque.

It is unlawful for the menstruating and postpartum-bleeding women to do all the aforementioned actions, to fast before the cessation of bleeding, and to allow the husband or the master to enjoy the area between their navel and knees before they have performed the purificatory bath (ghusl). Some scholars said anything other than sexual intercourse is allowed.

Among the conditions of prayer is to be clear of najas-filth in one's body, clothes, place of prayer, and what one carries in prayer, such as a bottle carried in one's pocket. If a najas-filth contacts one or what one carries, one's prayer is invalidated unless the najas-filth is dry and one throws it away immediately, or it is an exempted najas-filth like the blood of one's wound. One must remove an unexempted najas-filth with purifying water by removing the najas-filth and its properties, i.e., the taste, color, and odor.

The najas-filth without discernible characteristics (najasah hukmiyyah) is the najas-filth the color, taste, or odor of which cannot be detected, and it is removed by pouring water on it. The najas-filth of a dog or a pig is removed by washing the najas-filthy area seven times--one of which should be mixed with purifying soil. The washes which remove the physical presence of the najas-filth are deemed one wash even if they were numerous. In the case of using little water for removing the najas-filth, i.e., less than two qullahs, it is required to pour the water on the najas-filth. However, putting a najas-filth in an amount of water which is two qullahs or more will not make the water najas-filthy unless it changes it.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Mehmet has said that the murder of innocent civilians is wrong. There is nothing wrong with thanking Mehmet for coming here and sharing his views, after all he didn't have to do it he is sharing his views voluntarily. I will also point out that he has made no attempt to convince you, that you should be a Muslim. You don't have to share his beliefs or even understand them to respect his right to believe them. You may believe that his beliefs are immoral and I might even share that belief about some aspects of his religion, but neither one of us has been appointed moral arbiter of the world.

Actually, the way he's going on I think it's about some penance that he has to perform. Preach to the heathen until they won't listen any more.

i am not preaching anything, but telling about my religion which for some reason has been misunderstanded...
if you do not like what you read then dont read it, pure and simple...

Among the conditions of prayer are:

1. To be Muslim;
2. The setting in of the prayer time;
3. To direct one's chest towards the Qiblah;
4. To be at the age of mental discrimination (mumayyiz), i.e., at the age which the child understands when addressed and answers when asked;
5. To know this prayer is obligatory;
6. Not to deem any of the integrals of the prayer recommended (sunnah1);
7. To cover the whole body of the free woman, i.e., to conceal the skin and hair and its color, except for the face and hands, and to cover the area between the navel and the knees of the male and of the female slave from all sides except from underneath.

Originally posted by mehmetinoglu
i am not preaching anything, but telling about my religion which for some reason has been misunderstanded...
if you do not like what you read then dont read it, pure and simple...

NO need to worry about that. I stopped reading after learning that it was OK to beat your slaves :rolleyes:. That and Muslims view about dealing with non-Muslims (discrimination at its finest) and your belief that all Muslims problems are caused by Americans. (Why have Asian muslims propered why Arabic ones regressed? If the US is truly subverting muslims around the world how did that get by the radar screen? And there are any number of successful muslims in the US, why is that?) I could go on ad nauseum about your skewed view of history and the world but there are only so many hours in the day.

Hey, apparently not all of your co-religionists are not getting the message about suicide bombers (see Madrid most recently), now they are even sending children out with bombs.
There seems to be something seriously wrong with the way your religion is practised by a significant number of people.

Hej Mehmet... rart at se andre danskere herinde!
Just greeting in our common language.

I would just like to share my view on religion and being religious in genral. I was born into the danish protestant church, and like many (or most, rather) danes i have not practised "my religion" actively during my adult life.
As a result of this maybe, my relationship with religion is a somewhat indifferent one... meaning that i consider no religion to be more right or wrong than any other. Religion is an individual choice and whatever the reason for believing may be I respect it fully. I do not base my impression and opinion of other people on their religion.

Hope many of you respect and share my opinion...

COMMENT TO WALDOS POST:

There seems to be something seriously wrong with the way your religion is practised by a significant number of people.

exactly...! the PRACTISE of religion decides wether people are wrong in their beleifs or not. You said yourself that there are a lot of successful muslims all around the world, so why should a few peoples (few meaning in relation to the total number of muslims worldwide) actions stamp all muslims to be dangerous and even evil?

Originally posted by mehmetinoglu

7. To cover the whole body of the free woman, i.e., to conceal the skin and hair and its color, except for the face and hands, and to cover the area between the navel and the knees of the male and of the female slave from all sides except from underneath.

I've yet to hear the rationale for this one that has one iota of logic in it. Maybe you could enlighten us.

Are muslim men so weak willed that the mere sight of a woman's skin causes them to lose control of all mental faculties and force them to do things they wouldn't do otherwise?

Are muslim women so lascivious that they cannot resist the urge to lure muslim men into iniquity?

What is the basis for this rule?

If there's one common thread running through the conservative practioners of all the major religions, it's that they think everything leads to sex.

muslim men and women are not weak, but humans can easily be tempted by inlis (satan) and the jinns, to think thoughts that could lead to lust, if a husband and wife wants to run around naked they can do it in the privacy of their home (all though running around naked with out a good reason is a sin) the basis of this rule is for the male and female muslim to be pure and keep their dignity, and to be judged but their intellegens and love to their faith, and not to be judged as an object like i see non stop here in the west...
why muslims hate your goverment? islam is like a brotherhood and sisterhood, the muslim in indonesian feels for the his brother in palestine and thats why they condemn and hate the us goverment...if you cant understand that then you dont know the true meaning of the word unity...

hej maros velkommen her i islam answers back...

if you have any question feel free to ask, providing they are not insulting

Prayer is invalidated by:

1. Uttering even two letters or one meaningful letter unless one forgets and it is little;
2. Performing many moves, which according to some scholars are as many as what would last for the duration of one rak^ah. According to other scholars three consecutive moves invalidate the prayer. The first saying, however, has a stronger evidence;
3. Performing an excessive move;
4. Adding an extra integral which involves action;
5. Performing one move with the purpose of playing;
6. Eating and drinking except if one forgets and it is little;
7. Intending to interrupt prayer;
8. Making an intention to interrupt prayer contingent on the occurrence of an incident;
9. Hesitating about interrupting prayer;
10. The completion of an integral while the doubt about one's intention of the opening saying of Allahu akbar (taharrum) is still persisting or doubting for a long time about this intention.

Originally posted by mehmetinoglu
why muslims hate your goverment? islam is like a brotherhood and sisterhood, the muslim in indonesian feels for the his brother in palestine and thats why they condemn and hate the us goverment...if you cant understand that then you dont know the true meaning of the word unity...

Can't brothers and sisters disagree? If my brother was to commit a crime I would argue towards him being right in his actions, but I would still love him as my brother.

Originally posted by mehmetinoglu
muslim men and women are not weak, but humans can easily be tempted by inlis (satan) and the jinns, to think thoughts that could lead to lust, if a husband and wife wants to run around naked they can do it in the privacy of their home (all though running around naked with out a good reason is a sin) the basis of this rule is for the male and female muslim to be pure and keep their dignity, and to be judged but their intellegens and love to their faith, and not to be judged as an object like i see non stop here in the west...

Trying to prevent temptation? Temptation is a natural state of humanity. It is what we all struggle with in various forms. It is through that struggle that we have evolved (hopefully for the better). We, in the west, make rules like the above for children who often have a difficult time controlling themselves. Trying to legislate against temptation is like trying to hold back the tides.


why muslims hate your goverment? islam is like a brotherhood and sisterhood, the muslim in indonesian feels for the his brother in palestine and thats why they condemn and hate the us goverment...if you cant understand that then you dont know the true meaning of the word unity...

That doesn't answer the question. I asked:
Why have Asian muslims propered why Arabic ones regressed? If the US is truly subverting muslims around the world how did that get by the radar screen? And there are any number of successful muslims in the US, why is that?

It would be instructive if you could answer that question.

What happened(s) in Palestine started long before the US ever came on the scene. You really ought to study your history if you want people to take your opinions on the issue seriously.

why muslims hate your goverment? islam is like a brotherhood and sisterhood, the muslim in indonesian feels for the his brother in palestine and thats why they condemn and hate the us goverment...if you cant understand that then you dont know the true meaning of the word unity... Being american is akin to a brotherhood or a sisterhood. We fight like hell among ourselves and call each other terrible names. However, when something catastraphic happens, such as 9/11, you see how we react. THAT is the true meaning of unity.

So if you want to hate the us government, and by extension you must also hate the citizens of the us, because of percieved favoritism over the palestine/israel situation....then you must understand why so many americans are so distruful and angry at people of your faith. Is that right? DO you understand? See, its easy to sit around pointing fingers and spouting hatred.

Also, is this the Condemnation (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/03/26/iraq.main/index.html) you mentioned earlier? Is this the type of hatred you have for the US?

off course they can dissagree, it too disagree what some of my brothers do, but i still feel their pain, and love them and hate those who do injust against them

the answer is pretty simple...
colonial times ended about 50 years ago in most arab countries, which left them in ruins...
also most arab countries doesnt produce something that can help their income...
and the demographic is also a problem...

yes i understand, but let me ask you this how come in the european countries they have tv documentaries and speak with imams and some even have a week dedicated to understand islam, where as everytime i turn cnn i see some so called middle east expert telling the americans so many wrong things about islam that even my 5 year old nephew could correct him, how can you distrust my faith when you know so little about it?

about the article:

so are you telling me i should not hate the americans when they kill iraqis?
or are you saying that i should not hate the americans because sheihk ahmad yassin (i have allready told what i think of suicide bombings, but if not i will tell it again, suicide bombing goes against islam)

In addition to what has been mentioned, prayer is rewardable by Allah, subhanah, if the following are satisfied:

1. One performs the prayer seeking Allah's reward only;
2. One's food, clothing, and place of prayer are lawful;
3. One's heart has feared Allah for at least a moment during the prayer.

One's prayer is valid but no reward is granted if these three conditions are not met.

Originally posted by mehmetinoglu
yes i understand, but let me ask you this how come in the european countries they have tv documentaries and speak with imams and some even have a week dedicated to understand islam, where as everytime i turn cnn i see some so called middle east expert telling the americans so many wrong things about islam that even my 5 year old nephew could correct him, how can you distrust my faith when you know so little about it?

about the article:

so are you telling me i should not hate the americans when they kill iraqis?
or are you saying that i should not hate the americans because sheihk ahmad yassin (i have allready told what i think of suicide bombings, but if not i will tell it again, suicide bombing goes against islam) I know your religion teaches you its ok to hate (as long as they are not muslim). You throw that word around (hate) very casually. It is this casualness that helps me to understand all i need to know about your religion IMO. I see parts of your religion taking part in suicide bombing. I see other parts of your religion expressing happiness that 3000+ of my fellow countrymen died for no reason other than a few of your fellow muslims wanted to make a statement. I see you also on here expressing the same hate with no regard for the loss of innocent human life of my fellow countrymen and women. SO WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE IN THIS THAN WHAT I ALREADY THOUGHT OF YOUR RELIGION?

As far as hating americans for ahmad yassin, go ahead. Its not like we bombed his ass but you muslims seem to be looking for any reason to hate americans these days anyway. Thank you for helping to reafirm my beliefs of your religion.

Colonial times may have ended 50 years ago but that has nothing to do with the US. Your beef should be with the Europeans. The only US interference in the ME was with Iran and they dealt with that.

Arab countries don't have any natural resources other than oil and that's the US's fault? Neither does Japan, who don't have any oil. Look what the Japanese have achieved.
What happened to the leadership of those countries being responsible for the situation the ME finds itself in. Why not blame Assad, Hussein, House of Saud, Ghadaffi, Nasser, Mubarak, et al for the problems.
Heck if WWII is an an example the ME should be begging for more US intervention. If Iraq gets back on its feet within the next generation the ME will be a vastly better place for all the world.
Their demographics are a problem. Again what does the US have to do with that?

Originally posted by waldo
Colonial times may have ended 50 years ago but that has nothing to do with the US. Your beef should be with the Europeans. The only US interference in the ME was with Iran and they dealt with that.

Arab countries don't have any natural resources other than oil and that's the US's fault? Neither does Japan, who don't have [B]any oil. Look what the Japanese have achieved.
What happened to the leadership of those countries being responsible for the situation the ME finds itself in. Why not blame Assad, Hussein, House of Saud, Ghadaffi, Nasser, Mubarak, et al for the problems.


I understand your position Waldo, and I agree that we were not a colonial power in the Middle East, but we have been a major influence in the region precisely because of oil. To suggest that we are blameless for what has happened there is to ignore the practices of companies like Standard Oil, and others who gladly made deals with the powers that be in the region with little or no regard for the people themselves. The leaders in those countries were enriched by american dollars, and this allowed them to strengthen their military forces and thus maintain more control over their people. In some cases, the US supported coups to replace unfriendly governments with ones that would be more favorable to the US. These practices in addition to our unwavering support of Israel has not made us the friend of the average middle eastern citizen.

Two points,
What Standard Oil, Exxon, Royal Dutch... did has little to do with US gov't policy. They were businesses conducting business within the context of the times and situation. Trying to make those companies somwhow responsible for social justice is silly. Trying to make them some sort of instrument of US policy is nonsense.

The only coup that i am aware of that the US engineered was Iran in the 50's. Everything else is the Europeans or the indigenous people. US support for some of these regimes needs to be looked at in the context of the world as it existed at that time. There was a global struggle between capitalists and communists. Both employed tactics which we all wish they hadn't.

Trying to make the US a punching bag for their own short-comings is victimization at a new level. SE Asia had many of the same problems yet they have been overcome (and not due natural resources.)

In thinking further about this issue I was struck by the fact that Turkey, the most secular nation in the ME is also the most advanced economically, politically, and socially of the region. Why is that? Especially given Europe's disdain for them. Food for an interesting discussion.

Originally posted by waldo
Two points,
What Standard Oil, Exxon, Royal Dutch... did has little to do with US gov't policy. They were businesses conducting business within the context of the times and situation. Trying to make those companies somwhow responsible for social justice is silly. Trying to make them some sort of instrument of US policy is nonsense.


If you think that the oil companies went over to the middle east and conducted business without the aid and blessing of the US government, I think you are naive. I fail to see how saying that they were just conducting business in the "context of the times and situation" absolves them of their responsibility. It's not silly to suggest that they knew they were dealing with despots and preffered it that way because despots are easier and cheaper to bribe than democratic governments, or fundamentalist theocracies. You made the point that we interfered in the politics of Iran by supporting the Shah, do you really think that was an isolated incident?

you dont seem to understand...i will give you an example...
usbekistan is country runned by a dictator and he opress his people the U.S is as far as i know not responsible to this, so the U.S is not responsible for it....but when the U.S starts to drop bombs on a muslim country all muslims where ever they are situated will view america as their enemy....

also i said that most arab countries dont produce enough to help their income, where in my post did i mention oil? so be a gentleman and dont put words in my mouth...
and there are some rich arab countries, maybe you would notice that i wrote most and not all...many of the arab leaders are weak and corrupt yes, but that still dont gives the U.S the right to interferre..

and i will also point this out in my entire life, all the things i heard from all the people i have known, has noone absolutly noone begged or thought that the U.S should help our countries....in other stay out of our affairs...

please find the post where i have said that i was happy about the death of the americans in september 11th..

cause i cant recall i haver ever written that...

i have no remorse when it comes to your invading/occupying soldiers yes, but i do not approve the killing of civilians...

The Congregational Prayer (Jama^ah) is a communal obligation (fard kifayah) upon the free, residing, pubescent, and unexcused males.

In the Friday Prayer (Jumu^ah), to pray in congregation (jama^ah) is a personal obligation (fard ^ayn) upon the free, pubescent, and unexcused male inhabitants if they were forty and living in buildings, not tents.

The Friday Prayer is also obligatory upon the men who intend to stay in the town of Jumu^ah for four whole days, not counting the two days of entry and exit, and upon those who reside out of the town but can hear the resounding call of a person who is standing at its edge closest to him

Originally posted by Vilepagan
If you think that the oil companies went over to the middle east and conducted business without the aid and blessing of the US government, I think you are naive. I fail to see how saying that they were just conducting business in the "context of the times and situation" absolves them of their responsibility. It's not silly to suggest that they knew they were dealing with despots and preffered it that way because despots are easier and cheaper to bribe than democratic governments, or fundamentalist theocracies. You made the point that we interfered in the politics of Iran by supporting the Shah, do you really think that was an isolated incident?

If you have some examples outside Iran feel free to offer them.

This just in, US companies, beleive it or not, don't represent US foreign policy. Do you think the US gov't at that time could have prevented them from doing business in the ME?

The notion that companies prefer dealing with despots and dictators is stupid. What advantage do they offer that a democracy doesn't? The downside of such an arrangement far outweighs any benefit. When the d/d gets tossed do you think the next gov't is going to honor any arrangement or allow them to do business going forward? Companies want to deal with stable gov'ts.



Your concern about dealing with d/d is made with the benefit of hindsight and judged in the current context and current morality regarding the issue. It's like scolding your oeverweight grown up child for eating too much chocolate when he was a kid.

Originally posted by mehmetinoglu
you dont seem to understand...i will give you an example...
usbekistan is country runned by a dictator and he opress his people the U.S is as far as i know not responsible to this, so the U.S is not responsible for it....but when the U.S starts to drop bombs on a muslim country all muslims where ever they are situated will view america as their enemy....

Clearly something is lost in translation here. Outside of Afghanistan, and Libya in the 80's, what Muslim countries has the US dropped bombs on? Afghanistan was in response to the Taliban's unwillingness to surrender those who claimed responsibility for the the WTC attack. Libya was in response to the attack on the German discoteque that killed US military personnel and German civilians.

also i said that most arab countries dont produce enough to help their income, where in my post did i mention oil? so be a gentleman and dont put words in my mouth...

No you didn't. But the question remains, why don't they, can't they produce enough to help their income?

and there are some rich arab countries, maybe you would notice that i wrote most and not all...many of the arab leaders are weak and corrupt yes, but that still dont gives the U.S the right to interferre..

and i will also point this out in my entire life, all the things i heard from all the people i have known, has noone absolutly noone begged or thought that the U.S should help our countries....in other stay out of our affairs...

I wouldn't disagree. I would also point out that you surely don't talk to eveyone and that there actually maybe people/gov'ts who have asked for US assistance.
Can you point out where the US has interfered in Syria, Ethiopia, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Eygpt, Morocco...?

first of all the taliban wanted proof that osama bin laden did it, your goverment said they had the proofs but refused to show it to the taliban, also the taliban wanted to give up osama bin laden near the deadline but your goverment did not take the offer...

if the U.S drops bombs on just one muslim country wether it be arab or not, we would still wiev them as our enemies..

now to the resourcess, most arab countries dont have many natural resourcess,like gas iron ect... their primary income is farming which today doesnt bring in such money as it used, the industry is mostly factory work for big foreign companies, and the service sector is mostly low...therefor if a country is like that in todays world you can not earn enough income to become a high income land...

the us has not interferred with saudi arabia becuase of its buisness ties (the saudi royal family has invested more then 700 billion dollar in american buisnessess)

the US is planning on sanctions against syria...

if i am not mistaking the Us have troops deployed in Yemen, which is an insult to us muslims

i will tell you this the goverments innmost muslim countries dont represent their people

now these are the countries i know of i dont have a list in my head which countries the us interferres with....

The conditions of the Friday Prayer are:

1. The setting in of Dhuhr prayer time;
2. The aforementioned forty inhabitants must hear the two speeches (khutbahs) during the time for Dhuhr prayer and before praying the Jumu^ah Prayer;
3. The Jumu^ah Prayer must be performed in congregation by the aforementioned forty inhabitants;
4. Another Jumu^ah Prayer must not be performed simultaneously in the same town. If the opening Allahu akbar (tahrimah) of one prayer preceded that of another, the former would be valid and the latter would be invalid. This is true if the people were able to meet in one place. If it was hard for them to meet in one place, then both Jumu^ah prayers would be valid--the former and the latter.

Threat? Arent we off and rolling. Typo, sure hope so. People should communicate openly.:rolleyes:

Originally posted by mehmetinoglu
first of all the taliban wanted proof that osama bin laden did it, your goverment said they had the proofs but refused to show it to the taliban, also the taliban wanted to give up osama bin laden near the deadline but your goverment did not take the offer...

They didn't take the offer? If you could provide a news story from a credible news organization that would go a long way toward proving your point. Absent that it's fantasy.

if the U.S drops bombs on just one muslim country wether it be arab or not, we would still wiev them as our enemies..

So muslims can attack the US but the US can't respond? Nonsense.

now to the resourcess, most arab countries dont have many natural resourcess,like gas iron ect... their primary income is farming which today doesnt bring in such money as it used, the industry is mostly factory work for big foreign companies, and the service sector is mostly low...therefor if a country is like that in todays world you can not earn enough income to become a high income land...

How does a country like Singapore succeed? They economy is virtually all service related. Same with Hong Kong. Manufacturing does exist in the ME. Most of the ME nations have built and developed an integrated oil industry. With help from the US in the form of financing and technology. (But let's not talk about all the ways in which the US might have helped the ME. That would destroy the myths.) Why haven't Arabic countries been able to develop more manufacturing? Many SE Asian nations have done so.

Why is the educational system on a par with the lowest in the world.


the us has not interferred with saudi arabia becuase of its buisness ties (the saudi royal family has invested more then 700 billion dollar in american buisnessess)

that's good. What about the other countries I mentioned?

the US is planning on sanctions against syria...

This is almost comical. The US interferes if it doesn't trade with a country?

if i am not mistaking the Us have troops deployed in Yemen, which is an insult to us muslims

On what basis? Because you don't like it? There is democtatic gov't in place that has clearly invited them if they are there. There are about 12 different political parties in Yemen which represent a variety of views including muslims. The president of the country is from the the Islamic Reform Group party. Don't try to tell us that this is an insult. The facts are entirely different. The facts indicate that your view of the world is uninformed.

i will tell you this the goverments innmost muslim countries dont represent their people

That may indeed be the case. What does this have to do with the US? The US is advocating greater democracy in th ME. That gov'ts be more responsive to their peoples needs. If anything the US is attempting to be positive about the situation, trying to help make it better. This attitude that you espouse, that muslims don't need any help, is very reflective of the rules you've posted. The rules are very insular. Designed to keep outsiders out and insiders in. That somehow if you just folllow the rules the world will be a better place. Unfortunately, again, the facts prove how utterly wrong that philosophy is. The 'muslim' nations of SE Asia have dropped those rules and attempted to join the modern world. The results are clear to all. Economies that can provide for its people. An education system that is as good as anywhere else. A tolerance for a diversity of views that contributes to the above. The results are clear, as should be the choice.

now these are the countries i know of i dont have a list in my head which countries the us interferres with....

It seems that you have a mixture of fact and fiction in your view of the world. Can you point to one country in the world which has such an insular view of the world as you espouse that has been half as successful? Why has Iran, which has a wealth of resources and been ruled largely according to the rules you've outlined been so deeply unsuccessful? Their economy has declined since the mullahs took over. Economy in a shambles, unrest in the street. If this is the paradigm you seek to have implemented....:confused:

At what point should Arabic muslims take responsibility for their situation? You can't blame others forever.