Now here is one topic that I still don't understand! That is, how someone can honestly say that they think Jesus was just a great teacher or philosopher. Or that he was the perfect example of one who has reached enlightenment, or maybe even the greatest level of humanistic capabilities.
If one reads the Bible and teachings of Jesus, there is absolutely 100% no mistake that he claimed to be God incarnate. By Jesus making these statements, he heavily narrowed down our options of what we can call him. If anyone hasn't read "More than a Carpenter" by Josh McDowell, I highly recommend it.
First, one must understand the difference between an objective and subjective statement. If someone claims to be God, they are making an objective statement. Jesus CANNOT be God to some people and not God to others. Someone can't be God and not God at the same time. You're either God or you're not, making that claim from Christ an objective statement. Either Jesus is God or he is not, and it is our job to find out the truth. Both sides can't be right (those who claim he is God and those who claim he is not God)! One of these sides has to be mistaken.
In knowing this now, you're left with the two choices. Either Jesus is God or he is not. If Jesus was not God and KNEW that he was not God, that would make him a liar. Yet this man suffered the cruelest torture known to man. Many of his followers died in the same way. Who would be willing to die for a lie? I doubt that he was lying! Well now, maybe he was not God and DIDN'T KNOW that he wasn't God. Well, this would make him a Crazy man. Making the claims he did and he didn't even know, that makes him a lunatic. Most lunatics don't even last more than a month without breaking down or giving in. They show clear and consistent signs of their lunacy. When someone is crazy, it's clearly visible. Yet professional psychologists have studied Jesus' words, his actions, his passion, and the manner in which he died, the way he interacted with people. Professionals have admitted that Jesus shows absolutely no signs of lunacy or being crazy. Infact, they actually think he acted the most sane of anybody from his time. Being a liar or a lunatic totally covers everything he would have been if he was not God....there's nothing left to consider, except....
That this man who lived 2,000 years ago actually was who he said he was. He was the son of God. Jesus and the father are one. That's the only option left to consider of the three. So please tell me, how do people justify simply calling him a great teacher yet they ignore his blatant claims of deity?

Ah, but is the true question not, "Does the Bible even tell the truth?"?

Of all the texts of Antiquity, including the "great" philosophers and other religions, stories from cultures and so on...The Bible stands alone as the most valid of them all based on how soon the text was written after the events actually happened, and the amount and size of the original text recovered, AND the character of the people that actually wrote these things down.
The world, even other religions don't question that much that Jesus existed or any character of the Bible existed. The question that remains is, like you said, did the events that were written about actually happen? There are many more manuscripts other than the Bible that point to the stories in the Bible. Word spread about Jesus quite quickly. If I recall correct, I think even the Chinese have an ancient text that talks about a man from the west who could perform great healings and miracles around the exact time Jesus walked the Earth. These men who wrote the Bible had no incentive to lie or make up stories. Christians were brutally persecuted beyond anything we've seen today. By these authors being so open about their faith and spreading the good news about Christ, they were basically signing away their lives and handing them over to a cruel death. The world did not take to Christians very well. What incentive did these men have to make up stories and not just that, but defend their stories in the face of extreme torture and death? One must remember the times and what could have motivated these authors to say the things they said. Something happed to these men and they experienced something that changed their lives to the point where they were no longer afraid of a cruel death.
If I recall correctly, the Bible has some 24,000 original manuscripts that have been translated with extreme accuracy. From all the texts of antiquity, I believe the next one in line is something from Aristotle with only about 850 original manuscripts. The Bible clearly outweighs any text of its time based on amount recovered. Also, out of any text, the letters in the Bible were written VERY shortly after the events actually happened in comparison with other texts of the past. The Bible stands alone as the most valid and reliably checked book from the past. If one were to question the Bible authenticity, they would HAVE to question every single text from antiquity, and if they don't, they are showing extreme bias. Our world does this today. How come we marvel and honor the philosophers and great thinkers of the past, when their writings as far as authenticity goes don’t even compare to that of the Bible? Some of these numbers are based on my memory, but I do have the text with all the information in it, I just don't have it with me at the moment. I borrowed it to a friend, but I can assure you, the numbers are that drastic. The Bible stands alone when it comes to authenticity. You don't believe me? That's Fine! Then I challenge you to do the research yourself and see! May I suggest a book called "The Case for Christ" written by Lee Strobel. <<Check the spelling on the last name, I'm not sure! Blessings...

Either Jesus is God or he is not, and it is our job to find out the truth.

Perhaps the truth is that the man called Jesus never existed anywhere but in the stories of the Bible, in which case he is neither man nor god.

I find it curious that of all the Greek, Roman, and Egyptian writings from the period that Jesus was supposed to have lived, and that have survived from antiquity, none mention this man who was supposed to have caused such political and cultural upheaval in the land of Judea.

Originally posted by Otis33
Of all the texts of Antiquity, including the "great" philosophers and other religions, stories from cultures and so on...The Bible stands alone as the most valid of them all based on how soon the text was written after the events actually happened, and the amount and size of the original text recovered, AND the character of the people that actually wrote these things down.
The world, even other religions don't question that much that Jesus existed or any character of the Bible existed.

The events discussed in the Bible from the creation to the time of Jesus cover about 4 thousand years...how could you possibly state that these events were written down soon after they occurred?


If I recall correctly, the Bible has some 24,000 original manuscripts that have been translated with extreme accuracy. From all the texts of antiquity, I believe the next one in line is something from Aristotle with only about 850 original manuscripts.

There are zero "original" manuscripts of the Bible in existence.


The Bible stands alone as the most valid and reliably checked book from the past.

Horse hockey...since many of the stories and events written about in the Bible appear in no other printed work, how were they "checked" for verification?

If one were to question the Bible authenticity, they would HAVE to question every single text from antiquity, and if they don't, they are showing extreme bias.

Completely illogical, you might as well say that since one ancient book is correct they must all be correct, or if one statement is true in the bible all statements are then rendered truthful.

The Bible stands alone when it comes to authenticity. You don't believe me? That's Fine! Then I challenge you to do the research yourself and see! May I suggest a book called "The Case for Christ" written by Lee Strobel. <<Check the spelling on the last name, I'm not sure! Blessings...

Your arguments are based on false assumptions and supported by flawed logic, and if Mr. Strobel makes his "Case for Christ" in the same way it will be equally unpersuasive.

The fact is 95% of what we know about "Jesus" today is the "literary" Jesus. This is not only from the bible, but from every literary piece that existed which described Jesus, fictional or not, which cascaded and influenced each other throughout history. The biological Jesus, the physical Jesus--which requires biology, archaelogy, field anthropologist...etc effort to get to know more about--we still have only very very limited knowledge today. To me, that means the person who should know the answer you look for is the person who has perused all of human literature, even then, he can only claim to know absolutely who the "literary Jesus" is.

Before you go into "what" Jesus was/is you need to find out "if" Jesus was.

{1} what was his real name?

{2} what year was he born?

{3} what day was he born?

{4}How long did he live, age?

{5}what was is age when he died?

{6} what year did he actually die?

These questions are all unanswered, I have heard this, that, and the other, but no proof. So if he really was the son of God why did the writters do such a bad job of writting who he was? Could it be possible this story was just another to help gain power? Back then religion was the source of power, not like today were money is the source. The Bible has many stories and they do hold some truth but they are not 100%. If Jesus walked this earth and was who he claimed, then why did it take so long for Emperor Constantine to claim his birthday? Lets not forget Constantine never even met "Jesus", but he did get power by using the name.

Jesus Arrendondo is one of the guys working for the lawn service along with Manuel Gonzales and Pedro Menchaca.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Your arguments are based on false assumptions and supported by flawed logic, and if Mr. Strobel makes his "Case for Christ" in the same way it will be equally unpersuasive. [/B]

I would very much like to know where you got your information from. Is this all coming from your imagination, why couldn't you leave some valid sources that show you did research? Don't challenge me...Challenge yourself, that was my goal for you. Mr Strobel was an anti-christian himself. He used to make the same statements all of you are making. He doubted and would never take anything as valid. He decided to question the Bible cover to cover. He visited expert after expert on the Bible, he visited preachers and historians and professors. He traveled all around the country trying to DISPROVE the Bible, trying to find a flaw. Every question he came up with, I'm hearing on this page. I'm no expert, don't challenge me, and then support your beliefs on my inability to prove such matters. Even though, I do not need proof to say I believe, such matters require a little faith as well. Go to the experts with these questions. Come to me about matters of faith. I know and can honestly say that God is real. When you believe, he reveals himself to you. Lee Strobel asked about the validity of the gospels, when they were written, how can we be sure who wrote them. I strongly urge you to take the time and read it, you never know it may answer a lot of your questions. This man thought Christianity was a hoax, he thought whoever believed in it was foolish, until he spent years of trying to disprove it and in the end he couldn't disprove anything. He learned how valid it actually was and now he believes in something that only a few years ago, he thought was completely rediculous. Order the book....it's filled with facts that are backed up with experts opinions and many sources. Take the time to do the research!

Who are these so called experts? Were they alive while Jesus was here? What makes them any more of an expert then anyone who found out different?

Noah's Ark is impossible
The bible talks of rabbits having 'hooves'
There are many instances where God is described as omniscent and omnipotent.
1. Why did it take 6 days to make everything
2. Why did he have to rest.
3. Why is he ever disappointed or happy? If he knows everything then he should know what people are going to do, but besides that HE MADE US!!! He knew what Adam and Eve would do so why was he angry and surprized when it happened?

Did the atoms change when we turned from clay into humans? How is that possible?

Look I could go on forever with questions that you can't answer. So with a subject you can't defend except with 'have faith' or 'God works in mysterious ways', why do you still follow this religion?

Originally posted by Otis33
don't challenge me, and then support your beliefs on my inability to prove such matters.

You were the one making the extraordinary claims that the Bible is the most verifiable ancient book, that there are 24,000 "original" manuscripts of the Bible, and that the events written about in the Bible were set down on paper "shortly" after the events occured, to name just a few of the wild claims you made. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. I have no beliefs to support. Do you support your "beliefs" with your inability to prove such matters?


Even though, I do not need proof to say I believe, such matters require a little faith as well.

You have every right to "believe" whatever you wish, but when you make unsubstantiated claims about the existence of manuscripts, and the verifiability of the bible without explanation of how that verification took place, you can expect thinking people to question your veracity. Does it require "faith" to believe in the existence of these 24,000 "original" manuscripts, or do they really exist? If so, where were they found? Who wrote them and when?

Order the book....it's filled with facts that are backed up with experts opinions and many sources. Take the time to do the research!

Book sales a little slow are they? Your name wouldn't happen to be Lee Strobel now would it?

Of course people can come on here and ask questions about God that nobody knows. Just because I believe in him doesn't mean I know why it took him 6 days to create the world or why he has emotions. Those things are for the most part don't matter as much as other things. The numbers I spat out came from that book. You'll never believe me or check up on anything I say because you don't want to. What about the other factors, like prophecy. 30% of the Bible is prophetic; none of these prophecies have been disproved. If you can find one that has, please tell me. Look at the Middle East situation between Israel and the rest of the Arab world. All this conflict is prophetic in the Bible. No other religions have prophetic statements. Israel being broken and the people scattered all across the planet...and then coming together as a nation again, which happened in the past 50 years. All this fuss over tiny little Israel, all that is prophetic. Read Psalm 22, David writes a song...if you read the first words, those are the exact words Christ said on the cross...the description in that passage talks about crucifixion and describes exactly what Jesus went through on the cross. How could David have known this? This passage was written like 1,000 years before Christ even walked the Earth. David describes crucifixion...saying "They pierced my hands and my feet” at this time, crucifixion wasn't even invented yet. How did he know this was going to happen? It's through prophecy.

Let me ask you some questions! You talk about little things like how could God create this earth in 6 days? Who are we to question God? What do you believe in?Evolution? Evolution has more holes in it then any religion of today. How do you explain life? The camera was designed and modeled after how the human eye works; yet no camera will ever be as high tech as the human eye. Everything on this planet that's man made took years of design...The greatest minds had to come together and analyze and design and test over and over again to make the camera or a watch or an engine or how to harness electricity. It took many years and brilliant minds to construct these things...it took great design, yet people that believe in evolution say something as miraculous as Earth and life on Earth happened by random chance? How do you explain that? You have an inferior camera that took years of design just to make. There no way it could have existed without design, yet a human eye just happened on accident with no designer? You said, how could the atoms change and that that was impossible. It's not impossible for a God that's not bound by science like we are. How do evolutionists say life came from non-life? NOW THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE! That makes no sense. How in the world, could you get a beautiful planet that so complex beyond anything ever created by man without a designer? How? Life just doesn't come from non-life? I'd think just seeing the nature around you would be proof enough to see a designer. The apostle Paul wrote in Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.


And no, I am not Lee Strobel...LOL...good one though! I just thought I'd suggest it. It has a lot of good thoughts that are worth taking a peek at if you seek answers to these questions.

You seem to have a misconception of what evolution is. It doesn't pretend to know what there was before life (yet), rather it tells that organisms evolved from common ancestors. There is enough evidence to prove this.

As for the Bible, what version did you use? Let me guess: a King James Version, right? An edited version (as all are) to serve the church of the time's needs.

Originally posted by Otis33
You'll never believe me or check up on anything I say because you don't want to.

I have no interest in spending good money ordering a book from you or your organization, if this book is going to be full of the same unsubstatiated claims that you make in your posts.
[
What about the other factors, like prophecy. 30% of the Bible is prophetic; none of these prophecies have been disproved. If you can find one that has, please tell me.

Again, your logic is flawed. How can you "disprove" a prophecy that has no definite timescale attached to it? There are no prophecies in the Bible that say that they will occur at a certain time, and even Christians argue about whether certain prophecies have or have not already been fulfilled.


Read Psalm 22, David writes a song...if you read the first words, those are the exact words Christ said on the cross...the description in that passage talks about crucifixion and describes exactly what Jesus went through on the cross. How could David have known this? This passage was written like 1,000 years before Christ even walked the Earth. David describes crucifixion...saying "They pierced my hands and my feet” at this time, crucifixion wasn't even invented yet. How did he know this was going to happen? It's through prophecy.
So you're saying that the Bible says in one passage that David had a vision, and then the Bible says in another passage that this vision came true, and according to you this "proves" that biblical "prophecy" is true? A rather weak example of "proof" and somewhat circular reasoning, IMO.

Evolution has more holes in it then any religion of today.

You obviously have no understanding of science, the scientific method, or evolution.

...it took great design, yet people that believe in evolution say something as miraculous as Earth and life on Earth happened by random chance? How do you explain that? You have an inferior camera that took years of design just to make. There no way it could have existed without design, yet a human eye just happened on accident with no designer? THAT makes no sense.

Evolution is not random chance. Natural selection is one of the mechanisms by which evolution takes place. random mutations occur and when one of these mutations produces a survivable trait, natural selection ensures that this trait lives on in future generations.

How in the world, could you get a beautiful planet that so complex beyond anything ever created by man without a designer? How? Life just doesn't come from non-life? I'd think just seeing the nature around you would be proof enough to see a designer.

Complexity doesn't neccessarily imply design, or intelligent manipulation. Ants and termites build very complex structures yet individually they are extremely unintelligent creatures. It's entirely possible that life came here in the dust of a comet or riding on a meteor from someplace else, or it was the natural result of chemical and radioactive energy on the primordial earth. just because we don't yet understand where or how life originated on this planet doesn't mean we have to ascribe it to a supernatural deity.


The apostle Paul wrote in Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Well, I understand that the Bible says that God created everything but you really can't use the Bible to prove the Bible. Is there any "proof" in nature that God created everything?

Christians believe that Jesus was the son of God and Mary.

Jews believe that Jesus was the son of Joseph and Mary. They consider him to have been a great teacher (Rabbi means teacher).

The New Testament, which was written after the death of any of Jesus' contemporaries, talks of all the miracles including the resurrection.

I think it would be easier to have faith in the Christian belief.

Jews believe people live on in others whereas Christians believe there is a heaven. I think I'd like to go to heaven, but I don't think it exists.

Is there any Christian who can explain to me why you believe Jesus was born of God and not his mother's husband, Joseph? Is there anyway to do this without quoting scripture? In other words, is is all taken on faith?

Thank you.

Dark Star I claim to be Christian and I have been a true Christian mystic since I was five years old. Relative to science a woman can't have a virgin birth that is a son because she has no Y chromosome. This requires a male somebody. Now genetically speaking if God can father a male child from a human woman then God has to be male and human in some sense, at least in theory relative to science. And the male offspring of this union should be able to do miracles beyond normal people's ability. In theory. The truth is we don't really know what happened. We just know what has be handed down to us from the past. There is a book called the Book of Thomas that didn't make it into the Bible.

This book talks about Jesus as a child and it seems to indicate that Jesus was a handful. A couple of examples: One day Jesus as a child was being picked on by a bully. Jesus withered up the bully's body. The bully somehow made his way home and complained to his parents that Jesus did this to him. The bully's parents went to Jesus's parents and complained about what Jesus did to their son. Jesus's parents went to Jesus and told Jesus to heal the bully, now! So Jesus healed the bully, except for one of the bully's little fingers. This He left withered and He said to the bully, "You deserved what you got."

One day Jesus was making clay birds out of mud on the sabath, kids will be kids. He got cought by some high temple mucky mucks and they went to Jesus's parents and complained about Jesus working on the sabath. When the temple folk and Jesus's parents showed up to get this mess streightened out, Jesus just looked at them. Then He turned the mud birds in to living birds and these birds just flew away.

I don't know Dark Star. The only way we are going to find out if this stuff is real is if somebody who is not fathered by God tests this stuff. Welcome to my life and so far things are very interesting. I am not Jesus but I am beginning to understand what He was trying to do as a gift to mankind. And as a footnote: Jesus brought, if nothing else, an end to human and animal sacrifice as a way to appease God. No other Master, whoever Jesus was, has ever been able to do this. acaveyogi

Originally posted by acaveyogi

And as a footnote: Jesus brought, if nothing else, an end to human and animal sacrifice as a way to appease God. No other Master, whoever Jesus was, has ever been able to do this. acaveyogi

Where and when did Jesus bring an end to human sacrifice?

Acaveyogi, what's a Christian "mystic?"

Originally posted by acaveyogi
Dark Star I claim to be Christian and I have been a true Christian mystic since I was five years old. Relative to science a woman can't have a virgin birth that is a son because she has no Y chromosome. This requires a male somebody. Now genetically speaking if God can father a male child from a human woman then God has to be male and human in some sense, at least in theory relative to science. And the male offspring of this union should be able to do miracles beyond normal people's ability. In theory. The truth is we don't really know what happened. We just know what has be handed down to us from the past. There is a book called the Book of Thomas that didn't make it into the Bible.

This is all very kewl if you ain't funnin' me, however, you remind me of the other book called the Book of Rufus that, according to the movie "Dogma", also didn't make it into the Bible. (you see, Rufus was this black disciple and there was prejudice and...) :D

Dark Star I am not funning you. I am real. And thanks for the cool! I have alot of knowledge about alot of different ancient science stuff. Some of it is from my genetics and from past lives, the rest is from a higher source. I suspect that there are alot of Christians that would not consider me a Christian. But then they don't consider anybody a Christian who does't believe exactly like they do, so I don't feel too bad about it. Truth is I have the knowledge of the "Life Witches" the folks that were before the druids. And the science of the Green and Brown Druids (but then they were an off shoot of the "Life Witch" folks). It turns out that you can play in God's library, that sidetracked me for years. :) And you would be supprised about how many message borads that I have been run clean out of. You have to find out what kind of things it is that people don't want to talk about and then you don't talk about them. But in the meantime while you are finding out what they don't want to talk about you can get into alot of trouble :) I love that part! acaveyogi

Lionel: What is a Christian mystic? Humm. Mysticism is: any doctrine that asserts the possibility of attaining knowledge of spiritual truths through intuition aquired by fixed meditation. And Jesus is my Master. It is amazing what you can learn through fixed meditation. All it takes is patience, persistance, and a good question. :) acaveyogi

Vilepagan: On the stake somewhere in the holy land. Once you sacrafice the son of God everything changes. Human and animal sacrifice was a way of life for most of the world back before Jesus. One roman fella wrote that when he visited a sacred druid oak grove that their were people and animals hanging from the trees like ripe fruit. They use to stick you in a box and stuff it with straw, give you a message to the gods, and then torch you. Ah yes the good old days when pagans were real pagans. acaveyogi

Originally posted by acaveyogi

Vilepagan: On the stake somewhere in the holy land. Once you sacrafice the son of God everything changes. Human and animal sacrifice was a way of life for most of the world back before Jesus. One roman fella wrote that when he visited a sacred druid oak grove that their were people and animals hanging from the trees like ripe fruit. They use to stick you in a box and stuff it with straw, give you a message to the gods, and then torch you. Ah yes the good old days when pagans were real pagans. acaveyogi

Are you stating that human sacrifice to the gods ended worldwide after Jesus was crucified in the holy land?

Vilepagan yep I am. You are after me because I claim to be a Christian. I don't want to run war with you. You have obviously been persecuted by so called Christians. Along with a lot of other people. I don't care if you are a pagan as long as you don't sacrifice animals and people to appease God. Not all pagans did this you know. Most pagans went along with Christianity to get the idiots off their back. They didn't like their loved ones and themselves hauled off to appease the gods. And then Satan (the power folk) got their hands on Christianity and turned it into something not Christian. This is what we are dealing with. Am I a Christian? I claim to be. But Jesus did say this: "You worked miracles in my name and I know you not!". Am I really a Christian? Evil/satan, whatever that is, is going to have to be buried/imprisoned for a thousand years before we are going to find out. :) ,if the bible is real, and we don't really know about this either. We are in a state of unknown here. I don't care if you are a pagan, alot can happen in a thousand years, sh*t ain't serious yet. But I do injoy a challenge, not because I am a true Christian, Who knows? I am just a wild cave yogi with no social programming. Argg! Counting my unexpected moments in this message board :) Hugs and Love, acaveyogi