I have not had a lot of interaction in my life with atheists. Most everyone i know has a belief in something . That something could be a deity, (God if you will, yaweh,etc.) I know a few people who believe that each of us are individual life forces whose essence (or souls) never die but are re-incorporated into the living universe as somthing else after we die. My cousin does not believe in God. But he doesnt label himself an atheist. He says he is an agnostic. I can understand being an agnostic, but i cannot understand being an atheist. Im not trying to start a flame war, im honestly trying to understand what reasoning is behind being an atheist.

To me, when you are an atheist, you are stating that you know beyond any doubt that there is absolutely no chance of there being a creator. I dont understand how anyone can say that there are ANY absolutes in this world, much less there is absolutely no God. What proof do you use, as an atheist, to affirm your non beliefs?

Another thing i've always wondered is what do atheists have to lose by simply being an agnostic as opposed to an atheist? Agnostics simply believe there is no way to ever prove or disprove the existence of God. So, in essence they are basically keeping all their options open. What if, just for the sake of debate here at AFN........ what if the only way that God would not let you in to heaven in the afterlife (assuming there is one) was if you openly denied the possibility of his/her very existence? What if you condemn yourself only through this one action? Wouldnt you feel, as atheists, that you are gambling with you very souls because you cannot understand or want to aknowledge the concept of faith? This thread is specifically directed toward Borg and Vilepagan as they are the only openly atheists on the board that i can recall, but i would appreciate any other atheists perspective on my post.

I think an atheist is someone who believes that there is no god, just as deists believe a god exists. It's all a matter of belief. No one can 100% guarantee what they believe is absolutely true. Agnostics, on the other hand, leave the possibility of a diety in their beliefs, but neither wholly accept nor reject it.

For me, I believe an intelligent, all-powerful God exists outside the periphery of human imagination, and controls the workings of the universe using unknown forces completely foreign (or perhaps integral) to science as we observe it. I also believe that atheists are materialists, which means they stake their claims in the physical universe, the universe as observed by the senses. This is a rational viewpoint, since nowadays this culture is fairly popular. Atheists can justifiably (in today's standard for logic) entertain possibilies of a godless universe, just as deists use faith as their mechanism for belief.

I found this online, Havok, maybe it will help:

Most of the North American public defines an "Atheist" is a person who believes that no deity exists: neither a God, nor a Goddess, nor a pantheon of Gods and Goddesses. This definition is reflected in American dictionaries -- not just because most publishers are Christian, but because it is the purpose of dictionaries to follow the public's word usage. Some individuals who consider themselves Atheists mesh well with that definition. But they are probably in the minority. Most Atheists simply have no belief about deity. For them, Atheism is not disbelief in a deity or deities; it is simply a lack of belief.

Okay, Havok, a lack of belief. That pretty well describes me, and most atheists I know. I probably have some very agnostic beliefs, such as I do not believe it is possible to prove or disprove a god, but still I call myself an atheist.

Btw, sputnik and astrapol are also atheists.

Originally posted by BorgHunter


Okay, Havok, a lack of belief. That pretty well describes me, and most atheists I know. I probably have some very agnostic beliefs, such as I do not believe it is possible to prove or disprove a god, but still I call myself an atheist.

Btw, sputnik and astrapol are also atheists. Thanks for the response Borg. One question. Since you say you do not believe that God can be proven nor disproven, why do you label yourself an atheist as opposed to being an agnostic? How is it possible to be an atheist when you views seem to be agnostic? Also, as i asked above, what would be the harm in keeping your options open to the possiblity of there actually being a god?

See, to me, being a christian or an atheist is absolute. It means you either have faith in God as a christian, or facts of his/her non existence as an atheist. Again, these are just my opinions as i am admitedly ignorant on the subject of atheism.

Or maybe i am missing your point entirely. Are you saying that atheists have faith that there is no God?

When I choose to tell people I am agnostic, it's because:

1.
I am open-minded about religions. I don't choose and follow one. I like to compare them, learn about them, and study the effects of religions on humans and societies.

2.
I don't feel the need to have a spiritual guidance, a sense of purpose in the world, promise of a favorable life after death. I don't view the world as purely scientifical or factual either. I view the world as a combination of human perception and infinite possibilities.

3.
The notion of god only has meaning as long as one is willing to believe it, and through believing it it affects how they see the world. God's existence and non-existence cannot be treated as something that's provable. In my opinion, god is a state of mind that has a powerful influence on the way humans behave.

4.
Even though there might be other terms that describe my views better, agnostic is a pretty accurate term which people are familiar with.

Would one use the term athiest to describe such a person? No, I think it would make very little sense. So, when someone calls themselve an athiest, what does this tell me?

1.
The need to distinguish between a godly and a godless universe. Don't want an uncertain universe--you want it either godly or godless.

2.
Strong belief that there is no god, especially the god as described within the Chrisanity frame. As far as other spiritual stuff out there is concerned, I have to assume very little about your view.

3.
Maybe you are an agnostic, you just don't know it.

Originally posted by Dio Seijuro
Maybe you are an agnostic, you just don't know it.
Could very well be. :)

Does an atheist believe they can have an after life? Maybe not with a God but just as an electrical force?

i call myself an atheist because i don't believe in a god. i could never come straight out and say "there is no god" because i don't know that for sure. but i doubt that there is a god, since i've never met anyone who could offer me proof other than "only god can show himself to you." so i call myself an atheist, even though i am really somewhere between an atheist and an agnostic.

in reality, we're all agnostics, since none of us REALLY knows the truth for sure no matter how much we would like to think we do. you just gotta guess at what you think it is.

Originally posted by mad dog
Does an atheist believe they can have an after life? Maybe not with a God but just as an electrical force?
I've never known anyone who believes that...I certainly don't.

Originally posted by HaVoK

To me, when you are an atheist, you are stating that you know beyond any doubt that there is absolutely no chance of there being a creator. I dont understand how anyone can say that there are ANY absolutes in this world, much less there is absolutely no God. What proof do you use, as an atheist, to affirm your non beliefs?
I am not speaking for all atheists, but I believe in reason and rational. I believe there is no God because I have not seen evidence that I believe is valid. I think you might try answering that question yourself as a theist.

Another thing i've always wondered is what do atheists have to lose by simply being an agnostic as opposed to an atheist?
Well it's a belief your talking about there. Im not going to say that I believe there's a chance for God to exist when i don't. I don't believe I have anything to lose, but let us pretend that there is a God for a moment. If he chose not to show himself all this time, then why should he punish us for using reason, which he gave us since he created us.

I believe that is beyond human comprehension.

Originally posted by HaVoK
I have not had a lot of interaction in my life with atheists. Most everyone i know has a belief in something . That something could be a deity, (God if you will, yaweh,etc.) I know a few people who believe that each of us are individual life forces whose essence (or souls) never die but are re-incorporated into the living universe as somthing else after we die. My cousin does not believe in God. But he doesnt label himself an atheist. He says he is an agnostic. I can understand being an agnostic, but i cannot understand being an atheist. Im not trying to start a flame war, im honestly trying to understand what reasoning is behind being an atheist.

I call myself an atheist simply because it involves (usually) a lot less explaining. I also choose this label because I'm uncomfortable with people who profess to "know" the answer to the question that is perhaps the oldest question in the world, namely; where did the universe and everything in it come from? I don't presume to know the answer to that question, and I'm willing to admit that perhaps that makes me more of an agnostic than an atheist. I don't really consider the distinction all that important, to me at least.

To me, when you are an atheist, you are stating that you know beyond any doubt that there is absolutely no chance of there being a creator. I dont understand how anyone can say that there are ANY absolutes in this world, much less there is absolutely no God. What proof do you use, as an atheist, to affirm your non beliefs?

I can understand your definition of an atheist, and if it's an accurate one then there can be no "true" atheists because I feel that it would be impossible to "prove" that God does not exist. From a scientific standpoint proving a negative is generally considered to be impossible. You can "conclude" that a negative proposition is true due to a lack of evidence for it's existence, but that is as close as you can come to "proof".

Another thing i've always wondered is what do atheists have to lose by simply being an agnostic as opposed to an atheist? Agnostics simply believe there is no way to ever prove or disprove the existence of God. So, in essence they are basically keeping all their options open. What if, just for the sake of debate here at AFN........ what if the only way that God would not let you in to heaven in the afterlife (assuming there is one) was if you openly denied the possibility of his/her very existence? What if you condemn yourself only through this one action? Wouldnt you feel, as atheists, that you are gambling with you very souls because you cannot understand or want to aknowledge the concept of faith? This thread is specifically directed toward Borg and Vilepagan as they are the only openly atheists on the board that i can recall, but i would appreciate any other atheists perspective on my post.

I myself don't look at the atheist vs. agnostic question in win/lose terms. I choose to call myself an atheist because I feel it likely that "God", at least how the deity is represented in Christian terms, does not exist. I don't believe in the idea of a God who watches over us, who has a "plan" for us, who will send us to heaven or hell, or any of the other traditional Christian ideas associated with him. I also don't believe that I can truthfully deny the "possibility" that a divine being exists. So again, perhaps that makes me an agnostic rather than a "true atheist" but from a Christian perspective I might as well be an atheist .

I don't believe that I'm gambling with my soul because the whole idea of some punishment or reward in the afterlife I find well...amusing.

I will say this about religion in general...I think religion is a natural response to man's curiosity about two burning questions A. Where did we come from? and B. What happens to us when we die? The answers to these questions have eluded us since the beginning of time but yet we keep seeking to solve the puzzle. Although I think religion is a natural outgrowth of that search I am dismayed that it can also stifle and obstruct that search.

When man concludes that he has found the answers to those questions, perhaps he will stop looking. I think this would be a very sad day indeed. So when I see a man say "but the answers are all right here in the Bible" I pity him that he has lost his curiosity and sense of wonder, but I also hold him in contempt for proffessing to know what is in my opinion, unknowable. I don't think the answers to those questions define us as a species, I do believe that the search is what it's all about. I respect people who have "faith" and have no problem with Christians as a group. If I come across that way it's due to my lack of expressiveness. I do have a problem with "the Church" because they exist only to exercise influence and control over peoples lives and perpetuate their own existence. So enjoy your faith HaVok, I respect you for it. Just don't insist I join in your faith, as I have my own outlook on life and I'm very comfortable with it. :)

Originally posted by Vilepagan

So enjoy your faith HaVok, I respect you for it. Just don't insist I join in your faith, as I have my own outlook on life and I'm very comfortable with it. :) Thanks for the great responses everyone. Like i said, i have no examples in my life to draw from when it comes to atheism. I think i better understand how atheists feel when they are confronted by a fundamental christian type. No one wants to have religion or any types of beliefs shoved down their throats. Well, i feel the same way as you guys do also. I dont want anyone making me feel like im an idiot for believing in God. I know i dont have the answers, and i do not try to act like i do.

Oh yeah, and Vile, im learning a new found respect for other peoples beliefs daily it seems. And thanks for the encouraging words.

Originally posted by HaVoK
... I think i better understand how atheists feel when they are confronted by a fundamental christian type. No one wants to have religion or any types of beliefs shoved down their throats. Well, i feel the same way as you guys do also. I dont want anyone making me feel like im an idiot for believing in God. I know i dont have the answers, and i do not try to act like i do.

Oh yeah, and Vile, im learning a new found respect for other peoples beliefs daily it seems. And thanks for the encouraging words.

You're very welcome for the encouraging words, HaVok. Thank you for asking my opinion.

I'm glad you feel you're learning new respect for other people's beliefs HaVok...I think your God would like that :D

Originally posted by Vilepagan
[B] I will say this about religion in general...I think religion is a natural response to man's curiosity about two burning questions A. Where did we come from? and B. What happens to us when we die? The answers to these questions have eluded us since the beginning of time but yet we keep seeking to solve the puzzle. Although I think religion is a natural outgrowth of that search I am dismayed that it can also stifle and obstruct that search.

Vilepagan

I disagree with your statement, religion is alot more then will I go on or were did I come from. Of course it would be interesting to have this info, this is not why I am where I am. I do believe I will go on, but whats more important to me is the "now". I believe in spirits, and also believe we can learn from them, this is complicated so I'm not going to go into it. My religion tries to interact with the other world, and the miss understood. It's not a matter of follow this set of rules so you can live on in peace for eternity. I hope when I pass I will have an important job maybe control the wind, water, etc.... I know I'm sounding kind of off the wall, but wouldn't it get boring if all you had to do all day was sit around and be happy? I also agree God gave us life, but he is not around to baby sit us. I also believe that spirits can help if the quest is important for all(or many) not just for selfish needs. I do not believe in these folks that say they prayed and went to church, that is why they are rich and have money. I honestly believe God could care less about the so perfect dollar.

I have a question why is your name Vile -pagan? Do you believe in a certain pagan way?

Originally posted by mad dog
Vilepagan

I disagree with your statement, religion is alot more then will I go on or were did I come from. Of course it would be interesting to have this info, this is not why I am where I am. I do believe I will go on, but whats more important to me is the "now". I believe in spirits, and also believe we can learn from them, this is complicated so I'm not going to go into it. My religion tries to interact with the other world, and the miss understood. It's not a matter of follow this set of rules so you can live on in peace for eternity. I hope when I pass I will have an important job maybe control the wind, water, etc.... I know I'm sounding kind of off the wall, but wouldn't it get boring if all you had to do all day was sit around and be happy? I also agree God gave us life, but he is not around to baby sit us. I also believe that spirits can help if the quest is important for all(or many) not just for selfish needs. I do not believe in these folks that say they prayed and went to church, that is why they are rich and have money. I honestly believe God could care less about the so perfect dollar.

I have a question why is your name Vile -pagan? Do you believe in a certain pagan way?

I didn't mean to suggest that the mystery of the origin of the universe, or the question of an afterlife were the only reason man has religious feelings. I do think that they are perhaps two of the biggest questions that brought these feelings out in man. Excavated Neanderthal graves show that they buried flowers and other artifacts with their dead suggesting that they had ideas about an afterlife. Many of the world's religions contain within their mythology (no offense intended) stories describing the creation of the universe. So I chose those two examples as reasons why man has developed many different religions throughout his history. Basically, I believe man first came up with religion in an attempt to explain things in the world that he could not understand. This idea was best expressed by Voltaire "If God did not exist, it would be neccessary to invent him".

As to my name "Vilepagan"...No I don't follow a specific pagan belief system, indeed I guess when it comes to religion I'm an agnostic/atheist/freethinker. To be honest I chose that name on the spur of the moment, I didn't really intend that it would have any particular significance. I guess I hoped it would prevent bizarre fundamentalist christians (like Sarah Rose) from attempting to convert me.:D

I noticed your other thread this question probably should go there?? What if man of the past did have a higher understanding of the spirit world? Lets face it, today most people are more worried about the color of their hair then they are about what's happening around them. Are folks of today able to see past all the materialistic crap they have/own/want? Maybe it's not so much of how things got explained, but more towards our (modern man) ignorance?

Originally posted by Vilepagan
I guess I hoped it would prevent bizarre fundamentalist christians (like Sarah Rose) from attempting to convert me.:D

Are you kidding?? That just attracts them like flies!

Originally posted by LionelHutz
Are you kidding?? That just attracts them like flies!

I didn't say it was working. :(

Originally posted by Vilepagan
I guess I hoped it would prevent bizarre fundamentalist christians (like Sarah Rose) from attempting to convert me.:D
This is an interesting statement because it sort of parallels my theory about atheists: I believe most convert to atheism as a method of defense against one or more overbearing and overzealous Christians. I could be wrong, but it seems most atheists around today actually started out as Christians. At some point in their life, one of two things happened:
a) The fellow Christians in their congregation were very pushy and strict about obeying the rules of the bible; right down to criticizing you and telling you you’re going to hell if you don’t… or
b) They watched too much television and let the TV producers fill their head with all sorts of doubt about religion (especially Christianity).
Either way, the belief that there is absolutely no living being or entity in the entire universe that is superior to humans sounds a bit irrational to me, and maybe even a bit arrogant. We, as humans, are so accustomed to being the dominant life form here on earth that it is sometimes difficult to accept the fact that we might not be at the very top of the pyramid. This is where the “open mind” comes in; despite the limitations of what you can physically see with your own eyes, you must always remember that anything is possible.

Originally posted by Mopoloton
This is an interesting statement because it sort of parallels my theory about atheists: I believe most convert to atheism as a method of defense against one or more overbearing and overzealous Christians. I could be wrong, but it seems most atheists around today actually started out as Christians. At some point in their life, one of two things happened:
a) The fellow Christians in their congregation were very pushy and strict about obeying the rules of the bible; right down to criticizing you and telling you you’re going to hell if you don’t… or
b) They watched too much television and let the TV producers fill their head with all sorts of doubt about religion (especially Christianity).
Either way, the belief that there is absolutely no living being or entity in the entire universe that is superior to humans sounds a bit irrational to me, and maybe even a bit arrogant. We, as humans, are so accustomed to being the dominant life form here on earth that it is sometimes difficult to accept the fact that we might not be at the very top of the pyramid. This is where the “open mind” comes in; despite the limitations of what you can physically see with your own eyes, you must always remember that anything is possible.

Well, for myself Mopoloton I don't believe I "converted" to atheism because I would have had to be a christian first. While I was baptized shortly after birth and attended sunday school for a couple of years until about the age of six, I don't believe that a person can be classified as an adherent or believer of a religion unless they make a concious, and intelligent decision to follow one faith or another. Personally I think six years old is too young to make a decision of this kind. (I hope ugababe doesn't see this). At the age of seven my parents gave myself and my two older siblings the choice of whether we wanted to attend church or not, and we chose not to attend. My atheism comes from what I have learned about the universe since then. I think if most atheists started out as christians it's because often a child is not given the choice that I was, and is forced to attend church until they may be beyond the point of easily learning a new outlook, or they simply are brought up in an environment where atheism is discouraged, and it is not until they gain some independence that they make the decision to be atheists. After all, no one is born christian, it is something you are taught.

My memories of sunday school are pleasant ones, we were read stories based on the bible, probably the typical stories that most children are read at that age, The Good Samaritan was my favorite as I recall. We also had to memorize short Bible passages and recite them at a christmas service. I have no unpleasant memories of christians from my childhood that I remember now and since I have some memories going back to the age of three, I feel that my memory isn't faulty.

I watched television as a child sure, but I don't recall any particularly christian or anti-christian messages that were on, so I'd have to say that TV's influence on my atheism is minimal at best. There wasn't a lot of controversial stuff on TV for kids in the late 60's.

I never said I believed that there was no life in the universe more intelligent or superior to man. Indeed I think it's highly probable that there is, but that doesn't mean that this other life must be in any way "supernatural" or "divine". I believe I do have a reasonably "open" mind about most ideas, and I hope that if you encounter something that you don't understand you would not assume it must be "supernatural" or "divine".

Originally posted by mad dog
I noticed your other thread this question probably should go there?? What if man of the past did have a higher understanding of the spirit world? Lets face it, today most people are more worried about the color of their hair then they are about what's happening around them. Are folks of today able to see past all the materialistic crap they have/own/want? Maybe it's not so much of how things got explained, but more towards our (modern man) ignorance?

I'm not sure if you were addressing this question to me Mad Dog, but if you were please post it in the other thread, and if you do, could you perhaps rephrase the question as I'm not really sure what you're asking. I think you were referencing my comment about the Neanderthals but I'm not sure. :)

Yes I was asking you, but anyone could answer. I will reword it and post a new thread :)

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Well, for myself Mopoloton I don't believe I "converted" to atheism because I would have had to be a christian first. While I was baptized shortly after birth and attended sunday school for a couple of years until about the age of six, I don't believe that a person can be classified as an adherent or believer of a religion unless they make a concious, and intelligent decision to follow one faith or another. Personally I think six years old is too young to make a decision of this kind. (I hope ugababe doesn't see this). At the age of seven my parents gave myself and my two older siblings the choice of whether we wanted to attend church or not, and we chose not to attend. My atheism comes from what I have learned about the universe since then. I think if most atheists started out as christians it's because often a child is not given the choice that I was, and is forced to attend church until they may be beyond the point of easily learning a new outlook, or they simply are brought up in an environment where atheism is discouraged, and it is not until they gain some independence that they make the decision to be atheists. After all, no one is born christian, it is something you are taught.

My memories of sunday school are pleasant ones, we were read stories based on the bible, probably the typical stories that most children are read at that age, The Good Samaritan was my favorite as I recall. We also had to memorize short Bible passages and recite them at a christmas service. I have no unpleasant memories of christians from my childhood that I remember now and since I have some memories going back to the age of three, I feel that my memory isn't faulty.

I watched television as a child sure, but I don't recall any particularly christian or anti-christian messages that were on, so I'd have to say that TV's influence on my atheism is minimal at best. There wasn't a lot of controversial stuff on TV for kids in the late 60's.

I never said I believed that there was no life in the universe more intelligent or superior to man. Indeed I think it's highly probable that there is, but that doesn't mean that this other life must be in any way "supernatural" or "divine". I believe I do have a reasonably "open" mind about most ideas, and I hope that if you encounter something that you don't understand you would not assume it must be "supernatural" or "divine".
Well, I don’t know what you learned about the universe, but my knowledge of it actually helps strengthen my faith. The orbit of each planet, the Earth’s rotation around the sun, ect. It all just seems too controlled to me to be entirely coincidental. Any continuous action that is left entirely to chance has about a 90% probability of eventually failing. That’s why I just don’t think it’s coincidental that the Earth has remained in perfect orbit for so many centuries; if this had been left entirely to chance, something would’ve gone wrong by now.

When you say you don’t believe there is any “divine” or “supernatural” being anywhere in the universe, my first question is what you consider to be divine or supernatural. You can watch an anthill all day without the ants ever knowing they’re being watched, and even if you make your presence known, they still don’t know what you are. Compared to ants, we are divine beings. Who’s to say we’re at the very top? It is quite possible there is a higher level of consciousness out there that can see us even though we can’t see it. It’s simple probability really.

Originally posted by Mopoloton
Well, I don’t know what you learned about the universe, but my knowledge of it actually helps strengthen my faith. The orbit of each planet, the Earth’s rotation around the sun, ect. It all just seems too controlled to me to be entirely coincidental. Any continuous action that is left entirely to chance has about a 90% probability of eventually failing. That’s why I just don’t think it’s coincidental that the Earth has remained in perfect orbit for so many centuries; if this had been left entirely to chance, something would’ve gone wrong by now.

When you say you don’t believe there is any “divine” or “supernatural” being anywhere in the universe, my first question is what you consider to be divine or supernatural. You can watch an anthill all day without the ants ever knowing they’re being watched, and even if you make your presence known, they still don’t know what you are. Compared to ants, we are divine beings. Who’s to say we’re at the very top? It is quite possible there is a higher level of consciousness out there that can see us even though we can’t see it. It’s simple probability really.

I'm sure that what you and i have learned about the universe is very similar. We just differ in our interpretations of that knowledge. I'm glad that you can reconcile your scientific knowledge with your faith with such equanimity. When you speak of the orbits of the planets I would like to make two points. First the orbits of the planets in our solar system are far from "perfect". The orbits are not circular, they are elliptical, and not perfect ellipses at that. Every so often we need to adjust our calendars and timekeeping devices to accpount for these slight imperfections. The earth also "wobbles" on its axis of rotation. Second, I'm not sure whether your 90% figure is accurate but for the sake of this discussion let's assume it is. If we have not seen the orbits of the planets "fail' it's because of the enormous time scale of such failures. It takes many hundreds of millions or billions of years for such events to manifest themselves, so it's not surprising to me that in the few hundreds or even thousands of years we have been observing the planets we have seen little variation in their movement. The orbits are also not defined by "chance" they are governed by the natural laws of "orbital mechanics". While the elegant dance of the planets may appear to be controlled, I just don't think it's the case.

Again I don't believe we are the most intelligent or advanced life in the universe. The odds of that being true are staggeringly slim. If all it takes to be considered divine is to be icredibly advanced compared to your observer, then it is likely that there are beings in the universe who could be considered divine. Arthur C Clarke's famous quote "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" if applied to living things might read, "any sufficiently advanced being is indistiguishable from the divine". But I think this is a faulty definition because the definition relies on perspective rather than a factual statement of the differences from one species to another. My definition of "divine" at least how we commonly use the term, would revolve around the belief that "God" created the universe in it's entirety out of nothing. That before there was a universe there was a god who decided to amuse himself by creating something out of nothing. Now I'll admit that the "Big Bang" theory sounds interestingly like the "let there be light" statement in the Bible but I believe there are natural laws that we don't yet understand responsible for the creation of the universe as we see it today, not the intercession of a benevolent deity.

The orbit of the planets in our solar system may not have to be 100% perfect all the time, but they have to be pretty close for our existence here on earth to continue. Most scientists believe the ocean’s tide is controlled by the moon’s gravitational pull, therefore if the moon were to breach from orbit by so much as a few miles, certain continents would be in danger of flooding. There are also some scientists who go as far as to say a shift in the lunar orbit would result in several catastrophic events such as earthquakes and hurricanes. The Earth’s orbit around the sun is also a very delicate one. In South Carolina we often go from 100-degree summers to 30-degree winters, and this is caused by a very slight (at least in universal terms) movement in orbit. It wouldn’t take much to freeze the entire planet or to make it too hot for any lifeform. When you look at it that way, you can quite reassuringly label the orbit of the planets perfect.

My 90% figure doesn’t only apply to planets. Birth and the functions of a human body can also be looked at with the same logic. It takes several months for a fetus to develop and there are plenty of different phases involved in this process. If left entirely to chance, something, eventually, would go wrong. In a human body, the heart, lungs, liver, kidneys, brain, and other vital organs must function in perfect unison for an entire lifetime. If this were left to chance, most people wouldn’t live more than a year. I don’t know of anything built by science that is quite as reliable and durable as a human body.

Most will probobly disagree with me on this but I believe unlike most that our universe is like it is because of pure luck. It seems impossable until you think of the size of space. If our universe was the only one then yeah it would make sence that something made it that way but when you think our universe is only one out of to quote Carl Sagan"billions and billions" then the odds of the perfect situation that it took for our planet to support life seem more and more possable. Just a thought.

I suppose there is a chance that our solar system ended up in such a perfect situation due to pure luck, but it is a very slim one. Also, arriving at such a situation is one thing, but REMAINING in that situation for millions of years can’t possibly be chalked up to luck.

Originally posted by Mopoloton
I suppose there is a chance that our solar system ended up in such a perfect situation due to pure luck, but it is a very slim one. Also, arriving at such a situation is one thing, but REMAINING in that situation for millions of years can’t possibly be chalked up to luck.

First of all Mopoloton, I don't think that you have a true appreciation of time on a cosmic scale. For the situation on a planet to remain relatively unchanged for millions of years, when the life span of the planet is in the billions of years is not that remarkable. And even in the history of the planet that we know about there have been cataclysmic events that would have destroyed most of the life here. Some scientists believe that within the next 100,000 years or so another asteroid or comet will come along and wipe out most everything again. So to say that things on earth have remained unchanged is not really accurate. I don't believe in "luck" but I do believe in random chance, and it certainly would not require a deity to account for the existence of the earth and the life that we see on it.

Rather than view this planet and say 'how remarkable that it is perfectly suited to our existence, a God must be making it so". Perhaps you could look at it the other way and realize that we adapted to our surroundings and developed accordingly. If the planet were substantially different perhaps we would breathe methane, or have an ammonia based chemistry. There is also the possibility that other worlds had life but the changing conditions destroyed that life sooner than on this planet, and we just happen to live on a relatively stable one. Either way it is not neccessary to have the intercession of a deity to explain our presence here. Occam's razor suggests that of the two possibilities, God or chance, chance is the most likely solution.

Originally posted by HaVoK

To me, when you are an atheist, you are stating that you know beyond any doubt that there is absolutely no chance of there being a creator. I dont understand how anyone can say that there are ANY absolutes in this world, much less there is absolutely no God. What proof do you use, as an atheist, to affirm your non beliefs?


Argh, not again. Atheists have a lack of belief in any divinity. An atheist would never say there is absolutely no god...just that there is no evidence for such. Thus, lack of belief is the default.

Originally posted by HaVoK

Another thing i've always wondered is what do atheists have to lose by simply being an agnostic as opposed to an atheist? Agnostics simply believe there is no way to ever prove or disprove the existence of God. So, in essence they are basically keeping all their options open.

Pascals' Wager.

We don't fear hell, loss of heaven, the devil, demons, witches, bogeymen, goblins, dragons or the Tooth Fairy from that one creepy movie...

How can you fear that which you don't believe in? Agnostics...well, I think they're just fence sitters who are more positive about the existence of god than the rest of us.

Do you know heaven exists? Know what to do to get in? You sure? Are you more sure than a fundamentalist muslim, or a buddhist searching for enlightenment? Of course not.

The same reason I don't become agnostic and subscribe to Pascal's Wager is the same reason you don't shave your head and join the Hari Krishnas.

Don't believe in it.

Originally posted by Mopoloton
I suppose there is a chance that our solar system ended up in such a perfect situation due to pure luck, but it is a very slim one. Also, arriving at such a situation is one thing, but REMAINING in that situation for millions of years can’t possibly be chalked up to luck.

Not luck, random chance.

Calling it "luck" would assume that the state of the Earth is some kind of desired result...like rolling a seven or eleven in craps.

It isn't...it's just one possible result of what happened, and is happening.

Ive heard many times in this forum to be open minded about the possability of a god existing. If I were to do that I would also have to be open minded about my little invisible flying gnome which I consider to be poposterous. I am openminded to probable and reasonable theories, or in some cases just the best theory so far. I may not trust it, because sometimes the truth is not known yet. Though now it is becoming less and less often

Would it be open minded for a religious person to think for a moment that there might not be a god, or is that a one way street?

IMO, even the most charismatic among us must at times doubt the existence of a Diety. How many times have we heard, (or perhaps ourselves have said) "how could (a) God let this happen?" or words to that effect, especially when confronted with a catiastrophic event? Even the Bible must at times seem a bit far reaching in its' verse. No, it is not a one way street.

Well, I tell you what............... Live is a dream, my dream and you are all just part of it. Now if you don't behave I'll just dream you away :)

Not luck, random chance.

Calling it "luck" would assume that the state of the Earth is some kind of desired result...like rolling a seven or eleven in craps.

It isn't...it's just one possible result of what happened, and is happening.
Well, after breaking it down to the physics involved, it makes perfect sense. The size of the sun bends space-time enough for other smaller masses to fall into it's bend, you know, kind of like one of those things where you put the coin on, and it spins and spins untill it reaches the end. But the planets bend space and time too, thus sort of leveling it out, but not enough, eventually the planets will fall into the sun(although I think the sun will burn out first). The earth, due to it's mass, fell into a perfect spot and prospered because the temperture was neither to hot nor too cold. Now, the chances of this happening are so rare that I think even the Heart Of Gold would have dificulty causing this improbable event to occur. But looking at the size of the Universe, it makes absolute sense that it should happen here in this odd spot in the universe, and most likely in many others(not to mention of course in many other places in the Whole Sort Of General Mish Mash (WSOGMM)).

(an attempt to bring a thread that isn't a flamewar to the top)

Perhaps you could look at it the other way and realize that we adapted to our surroundings and developed accordingly. If the planet were substantially different perhaps we would breathe methane, or have an ammonia based chemistry.
Hmmm…… beings that can adapt and develop no matter what their surroundings are. Sounds pretty amazing to me, perhaps a little TOO amazing to be written off as luck or random chance.

Also, it really makes no difference how long the earth has existed to this date. Any day, any hour, any minuet a change in orbit could occur. The possible causes for a disruption in our solar system are endless. The fragility of our planet’s rotation and circulation around the sun has been equal to the flip of a coin every second for billions of years. It is impossible for such a thing to thrive if left up to simple chance.

Ive heard many times in this forum to be open minded about the possability of a god existing. If I were to do that I would also have to be open minded about my little invisible flying gnome which I consider to be poposterous.
Many find the evolution theory difficult to believe, yet are endlessly encouraged to be open minded about it. Does that mean this theory is equally as preposterous as your little flying gnome?
We don't fear hell, loss of heaven, the devil, demons, witches, bogeymen, goblins, dragons or the Tooth Fairy from that one creepy movie...
But you DO fear death. Any atheist who says he doesn’t fear death is lying. Take any atheist to the emergency room and let the doctors tell him he’s got six months to live and just watch his reaction.

Originally posted by Mopoloton

But you DO fear death. Any atheist who says he doesn’t fear death is lying. Take any atheist to the emergency room and let the doctors tell him he’s got six months to live and just watch his reaction.

I don't fear death Mopoloton, and I'm an atheist. I don't WANT to die and I'd like to put it off as long as possible. Having had two heart attacks I have come to accept the fact that I don't have a lot of control over the timing of my demise. I accept death as a natural consequence of life.

Why do you say atheists fear death? Are you saying that atheists fear death more than non-atheists?

I think when it comes to fearing death, the fear is not about death itself, but rather a fear of the manner of dying. Everyone fears pain and suffering, and everyone hopes that when it comes time to die that it is as peaceful as possible.

Many find the evolution theory difficult to believe, yet are endlessly encouraged to be open minded about it. Does that mean this theory is equally as preposterous as your little flying gnome?

Well there is no evidence for my flying gnome, especially if I made him reproduce, let say 50000 times a minute with each new gnome having the exact same qualities of the first.
Evolution is all but proven, there is evidence for it almost everywhere. The arguments against it range from trying to disprove carbon dating, all the way to actually manipulating situations (the dates taken from many mammoths and presented as one to disprove carbon dating).

Yes I do fear death as all normal humans should (that or they are dead now). But how does that prove your point at all. I dislike pain and other bad things happening to me, but all that means is that I'm normal. If I believed in a Hell, then I would fear it, but I've looked at it with a critical eye, and it is completely insane to believe in a place designed for eternal torment. First they can make you live forever there, and second they can fit everyone that has died in this Hell. Then they have some means of making you suffer constantly. I would think you would get used to it after a couple million years, but no.

Hmmm…… beings that can adapt and develop no matter what their surroundings are. Sounds pretty amazing to me, perhaps a little TOO amazing to be written off as luck or random chance.
No, stick a person in a methane enviroment, he would die, he would have no kids, end of the line. However, if it started out as methane, the organisms would evolve to such a state. Adapt is a bad word for the situation, adapting is moving from a temperature that is in the 90s to one that is in the 60s and living there for a few years and getting used to it. Evolving is a million year process that is like adapting.

Also, it really makes no difference how long the earth has existed to this date. Any day, any hour, any minuet a change in orbit could occur. The possible causes for a disruption in our solar system are endless. The fragility of our planet’s rotation and circulation around the sun has been equal to the flip of a coin every second for billions of years. It is impossible for such a thing to thrive if left up to simple chance.
Incorrect, the earth is not going to just fly out of orbit, every law of physics states that it is impossible. It doesn't have that chance, it is not a coin flip for the last billion years and chance that it fell on heads. It is the laws of physics, the nature of space-time of why. No god has to hold out his hand everytime it bounces, because it wont, it will move only closer to the sun, not farther away.

Many find the evolution theory difficult to believe, yet are endlessly encouraged to be open minded about it. Does that mean this theory is equally as preposterous as your little flying gnome?
How do you find it difficult to believe? Only because you have belief in a god that created everything. Evolution is logical, god isn't. And evolution has proof, does god?

But you DO fear death. Any atheist who says he doesn’t fear death is lying. Take any atheist to the emergency room and let the doctors tell him he’s got six months to live and just watch his reaction.
I don't fear death. Me, I wouldn't give a shit if my throat was cut and I was bleeding to death(that most likely ties into the fact I am a loser with no friends), now the pain might get to me though. Now if I had a loved one, I would fear death because that would mean leaving them, not for myself. I don't believe in heaven or hell, so it is proposterous to fear life after death, because I don't think it exists. Now the person talking about faires and witches etc., those are believable in a way, only because we have yet to discover every species on the planet. Magic I somewhat believe in because there is scientific explanation for it. Not because god willed it you see.

I'm an athiest and I don't fear death. I'm young, and I would be very very sad if I was told that I was going to die soon, becasue I'm lookoing forward to my life. but it's not the actual death that I have any problems with. I know I'm going to die eventually, it's inevitable, and I can't think of any reason to fear death itself. what I do fear is the pain involved, or, for instance, how my parents would cope if I died now. The only reason someone would fear death would be becasue they think something bad could hapen afterwards, and becasue I don't beleive in an afterlife death doens't scare me.

WhammyBar;

Yes, but there still must be a slight fear of not being any longer.

I'm not scared of death...I know where I'll be when I die...and the pain that might be involved doesn't scare me either.

what can ya do though? it's not really any use to speculate about where we're going afterwards, since only the dead can tell us that and i don't think any of us here are dead. crazy, maybe. but still very much alive. enjoy it while you can. and as to the whole not existing thing, it does freak me out, but i don't know for sure if that's going to be the case after i die. if it is though, it's not as if i'll care, because, well....i won't exist.

Originally posted by mad dog
WhammyBar;

Yes, but there still must be a slight fear of not being any longer.


not really. life will go on after I'm dead, as it did before I was born. I really can honestly say that the only fear I would have would be for my loved ones.

I understand that live will go on and that you love others. But if you die how would you know if life went on? If your dead and don't believe in anything, then why would you care about how others felt, after all your gone? You can care about others now, but if your gone there's nothing there, so in actuallity you wouldn't care. Now I'm confused :confused:

After your gone your not going to care, because you can't. But before you die you will realize that your loved ones will miss you, you care about that before you die.

What if they die at the same time? You would have no way of knowing?

I don't fear death Mopoloton, and I'm an atheist. I don't WANT to die and I'd like to put it off as long as possible. Having had two heart attacks I have come to accept the fact that I don't have a lot of control over the timing of my demise. I accept death as a natural consequence of life.

Why do you say atheists fear death? Are you saying that atheists fear death more than non-atheists?

I think when it comes to fearing death, the fear is not about death itself, but rather a fear of the manner of dying. Everyone fears pain and suffering, and everyone hopes that when it comes time to die that it is as peaceful as possible.
Two heart attacks? God has saved your life twice! I’d be grateful to him if I were you. Anyhow, atheists fear death because they don’t know what to expect afterward. Christians know EXACTLY what will happen to us when we take our last breath, therefore we’re more comfortable with the thought of dying. You’re right about fearing the act of dying rather than death itself; the bible hints that the act of dying is an unpleasant experience, so I’m not looking forward to it.

One of the most displeasing things about the atheists’ beliefs is that when your loved ones pass away you will NEVER see them again. This, in my view, is a very grim and depressing thought. I don’t choose to think like this, and I feel sorry for those who do. I believe there is a heaven and a hell because the bible says both of these places exist. I’ve studied many accounts from people who have had near death experiences (most were non-Christians) and their stories often parallel what is written in the scriptures. Like it or not, at the present time the bible is the most credible source we have on this subject.
Evolution is all but proven, there is evidence for it almost everywhere. The arguments against it range from trying to disprove carbon dating, all the way to actually manipulating situations (the dates taken from many mammoths and presented as one to disprove carbon dating).
There is also evidence of God everywhere, but for some reason you choose to ignore it. Even if the evolution theory is true, I doubt it could have started on it’s own. Just because a planet can support life doesn’t mean life will form.
Adapt is a bad word for the situation, adapting is moving from a temperature that is in the 90s to one that is in the 60s and living there for a few years and getting used to it. Evolving is a million year process that is like adapting.
Still too amazing to be called a coincidence.
Now the person talking about faires and witches etc., those are believable in a way, only because we have yet to discover every species on the planet. Magic I somewhat believe in because there is scientific explanation for it. Not because god willed it you see.
So you don’t believe in God but you DO believe in witches and fairies… need I say more.

do you know, mopo? do you REALLY know? or do you just THINK you know?

"One of the most displeasing things about the atheists’ beliefs is that when your loved ones pass away you will NEVER see them again."

hey, i wouln't see them if i believed in christianity either. they'd all be burning in hell with the rest of the heathens.

"I believe there is a heaven and a hell because the bible says both of these places exist"

how very thoughtful of you mopo. just because the bible says it doesn't necessarily mean it's true. just believing something blindly, in your own words: "is a very grim and depressing thought. I don’t choose to think like this, and I feel sorry for those who do."

Originally posted by Mopoloton
Two heart attacks? God has saved your life twice! I’d be grateful to him if I were you.
Your very quick to give credit here, but there is no evidence for credit being due.
Anyhow, atheists fear death because they don’t know what to expect afterward. Christians know EXACTLY what will happen to us when we take our last breath, therefore we’re more comfortable with the thought of dying.
Well, I know where I'm going. When I die Im not going anywhere, I don't think anymore, my mind is dead and does not function anymore. Your brain is why you think these things in the first place. You should give it the credit it deserves instead of God.
One of the most displeasing things about the atheists’ beliefs is that when your loved ones pass away you will NEVER see them again. This, in my view, is a very grim and depressing thought. I don’t choose to think like this, and I feel sorry for those who do.
Yes it is depressing, but your talking on the lines of "hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil"
You don't like the truth so you change what you believe. I believe this is the reason for a huge number of converts to Christianity. I have faced that I will die someday and I am going to have the best damn life I can. I would NEVER give up so many pleasures in life for a unbacked promise of eternal happiness.
There is also evidence of God everywhere, but for some reason you choose to ignore it. Even if the evolution theory is true, I doubt it could have started on it’s own. Just because a planet can support life doesn’t mean life will form.
What does this describe;
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A being with the power to surpass reason and logic, that knows everything about everyone, that can't be proven in any way, and has not shown himself ever!
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it's santa

I mean come on, you don't believe in santa do you? The only difference between him and God is that there's a (flawed) book on God and that he created everything (though there is a lot of evidence against that).

Originally posted by Mopoloton
Two heart attacks? God has saved your life twice!

Where was God when the 2 heart attacks happened? Sorry but this is bull, if you can give God praise for saving, then where was he when the attack, accident etc.. was happpening? Why diddn't he/she just not let the bad happen in the first place?

Christians know EXACTLY what will happen to us when we take our last breath, therefore we’re more comfortable with the thought of dying.

Christians know as much as a tribe living in the remote jungle, which is nothing. You can believe what will happen but you do not know.

You’re right about fearing the act of dying rather than death itself; the bible hints that the act of dying is an unpleasant experience, so I’m not looking forward to it.

I knew a person that had passed for 4 minutes and he said all he could remember was a peacefull expereince.

Like it or not, at the present time the bible is the most credible source we have on this subject.

That is your opinion, through my beliefs I have a different outlook, the bible is nomore proven then anything else.

Boy guys this seems to be a lively conversation :) Everyone who has ever truly met God says the samething, "God is something that is totally beyond comprehension and what one does comprehend about God there are no words to describe what is comprehended." Some folks claim that God is just a higher version of you , Self Realization sort of stuff. Personally I like to keep God God and me me and Jesus between the two of us. Life after death, nobody really knows. There are quite few stories about advanced students of God leaving life and taking their bodies with them though. And there are quite a few stories about students of God becoming extremely long lived. About Heaven, it turns out, based on my experience, that your mind can be in Heaven (whatever that is) while your physical body is on this planet. It is some kind of level of awareness thing. Some call it an expansion of conscienceness thing. Am I afraid to die? Probably. But then it can also depend on what kind of mood I am in. Not that I ever get angry, because I don't. Nope not me :) Michael

Originally posted by Mopoloton
Two heart attacks? God has saved your life twice! I’d be grateful to him if I were you. Anyhow, atheists fear death because they don’t know what to expect afterward. Christians know EXACTLY what will happen to us when we take our last breath, therefore we’re more comfortable with the thought of dying. You’re right about fearing the act of dying rather than death itself; the bible hints that the act of dying is an unpleasant experience, so I’m not looking forward to it.

I'm with mad dog on the heart attack thing, you have stated in another post that god is all-knowing and all-powerful so if he was going to have to save me in the end why didn't he save himself the trouble of having to save me by not preventing the heart attacks in the first place? I don't know what's going to happen to me after I die but I still know as much as you do on the subject. You believe you know but you could be wrong. As I said I don't fear death so what makes you so sure that you know how I feel better than I do. Does it insult your faith to think that an atheist might be just as comfortable with the thought of dying as you?

One of the most displeasing things about the atheists’ beliefs is that when your loved ones pass away you will NEVER see them again. This, in my view, is a very grim and depressing thought. I don’t choose to think like this, and I feel sorry for those who do. I believe there is a heaven and a hell because the bible says both of these places exist.

First of all, let me say that just because I'm an atheist and don't believe the same things you do about the Bible and Christianity, doesn't mean I don't think there could be an afterlife, or a continuation of existence after death. I think that atheists hold a wide variety of different beliefs when it comes to the afterlife, mostly because they come up with their beliefs themselves rather then have them taught to them by some organized religion. To be honest, I feel sorry for you for believing that your kind and benevolent creator of all things takes some of his creations and sends them to a place of eternal torment called hell. No offense Mopo, but that seems to me to be a story meant to frighten small children.

I’ve studied many accounts from people who have had near death experiences (most were non-Christians) and their stories often parallel what is written in the scriptures. Like it or not, at the present time the bible is the most credible source we have on this subject.

Sorry Mopo, but I don't find the Bible's version of history or the afterlife very credible at all.

There is also evidence of God everywhere, but for some reason you choose to ignore it. Even if the evolution theory is true, I doubt it could have started on it’s own. Just because a planet can support life doesn’t mean life will form.

Indeed we may be a very unusual planet to have life appear here, but that doesn't mean God put us here.

This, in my view, is a very grim and depressing thought. I don’t choose to think like this, and I feel sorry for those who do. I believe there is a heaven and a hell because the bible says both of these places exist.
The first sentence explains EXACTLY why you believe in the bible. Because it is a safety net, you don't want to look at the grim things in life. I understand, Ignorance is bliss? I'm not gonna crush your hopes and dreams of a heaven, but I'm not going to tell you that there is one, because it would be contradicting almost every shred of evidence we have for and against it.

There is also evidence of God everywhere, but for some reason you choose to ignore it.
Where is this "evidence"? Do you mean the fact that we are here? That is a crappy piece of evidence, if you mean the bible, that is even a shittier piece of evidence. Come on, give me scientific style evidence for god.

Even if the evolution theory is true, I doubt it could have started on it’s own. Just because a planet can support life doesn’t mean life will form.
No, a planet that can support life, WILL form life. It may take a long time, but it will.

Still too amazing to be called a coincidence.
That's because it isn't a coincidence. You just happen to be born on one of the planets in the universe that can support life. I don't see it as magical or coincidental at all. It is just the probability odds. The fact that I'm here, is only because my concienceness is here, I'm not on another planet, because I'm here.

So you don’t believe in God but you DO believe in witches and fairies… need I say more.
You misunderstood. I believe in a lot of "magic". Because it isn't magic, it is just science. The auras? "Just" the electromagnetic field that all living things emit(and non-living too). Moving things with your mind? That could possibly(I'm not saying definate), the manipulation of your electromagnetic field that interupts another's. Divination, I still can't quite come up with an explination for that. Witches, wicca? Only an ancient cult older than Christianity that worships the goddess :D. Faires? Could be an evolved form of a human, a cousin of ours, that is quite reclusive. Hey, they found a fish that they thought had been extinct for millions of years, they found a deer like animal in Asia with four nostrals. Why can't the Yeti exist, why can faires exist, why couldn't dragons have actually existed?

Oh, and on the topic of the after-life.

Pulling up all of the research I did on gnosis. They did quite a good job of proving to me that the bible says nothing about heaven as a place, or hell as a place. Remember, Jesus spoke in riddles. Heaven is generally used in a way that looks more like an idea, that heaven is a way you build your life towards. Hell is the opposite, remember Karma? Also, in many places in the bible they mention something that looks more like reincarnation. A lot like the Hindu way, you are born again to continue your quest to enlightenment. Also, one big thing that people seem to overlook. When you die, your body and soul stay in the "ground" until Jesus returns, THEN you are brought to the gates of god's kingdom.

Guys Blibblob is right relative to his/her last post. It has been said that Atheists are very religious people. :) Ah man! We are all baby God's. The question is, and this is the only question, do we want to be of the family of God or do we want to be an independent? Hell is creating your own universe and just you and your minions live there. The final judgement is going to actually be your choice. Now, Jesus was actually talking about physical immortality and bringing the Kingdom of Heaven to earth through you. Physical immortality is actually possible with or without God. Your mind is a thought generator and creation is a manifestation of thought. And your body is a chunk of creatiion. :) Final judgement isn't until after Satan has been confined for a thousand years, and your choice is based on knowledge, not ignorance. What we are playing for now is the first resurrection. The living don't die and the old quit getting old. Welcome to the twenty-first century! See why my wife wants me to get out more! Hugs and love! :) Michael, a cave yogi

First of all, about the heart attack thing, if any of you were true Christians you’d already know the answer to that. God allows these things to happen for several different reasons. One possible reason is to strengthen our faith; when you’re placed in a situation where no one on earth can help you, no doctors, no scientists, no one, and there seems to be no way out, you’re bound to turn to God. You could look at this sort of thing as a wake-up call. When you’re situation is beyond any doctor’s control, the only thing anyone can do is pray. This is when you see a real demonstration of God’s power. Remember, I worked at a hospital, so I’ve seen this a few times, and I’ve had family who were in similar situations. When your condition can’t be helped, and even those close to you have lost all hope, then you pray or someone prays for you and, against doctors’ expectations, you pull out of an otherwise hopeless situation and everything somehow works out, you HAVE to believe in divine intervention. When you had your second heart attack Vilepagan, I’m sure there were plenty of people who thought you weren’t going to make it, and a few of the more blunt individuals probably told you. However, even if you didn’t pray, someone prayed for you, and that’s how you got through it. You may not have become a believer, but you can damn well bet whoever prayed for you has.

That brings up another point: most of the atheists on this forum are under 21. Most likely, they’ve never experienced a situation where they had nowhere else to turn but prayer. Up until now Whammy, Borg, WindWip, sputnik, and blib have had everything handed to them on a silver plate and have no experience in the real world. They have no idea what a hopeless condition feels like. If any of them really gave prayer a try I guarantee they’d begin to change their atheist beliefs.

I also hear a lot of talk about how the bible was written by men. That may be true, but these men only wrote what God told them to write, so technically God was the one who wrote the bible. That’s why every word of it is true.

And as far as proof goes, anyone who cannot see how the complexity and sheer virtue of human beings is proof of God is blind. Life doesn’t begin on it’s own. I’m sorry, but that just doesn’t happen! Something had to start the life cycle, and in order for the life cycle to continue without failing, that something had to be an intelligent consciousness.

I have faced that I will die someday and I am going to have the best damn life I can. I would NEVER give up so many pleasures in life for a unbacked promise of eternal happiness.
The pleasures of the flesh are only temporary. These pleasures aren’t really built to last if you know what I mean; they will gradually decline as you get older, and eventually they will disappear entirely. What will you have then? Will you just rot at home with only your buddy Jack Daniels to keep you company?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mopoloton
[B]Up until now Whammy, Borg, WindWip, sputnik, and blib have had everything handed to them on a silver plate and have no experience in the real world. They have no idea what a hopeless condition feels like. If any of them really gave prayer a try I guarantee they’d begin to change their atheist beliefs.



you're making assumptions here. just becasue I'm a teenager doesn't mean that I'm compltely devoid of feelings and my life is shallow and meaningless. althouh I know I've had an easy life, and very little encounter with the real world. I've felt hopelessness. I was severely depressed at a young age, and I was suicidal when I was younger. I literally wanted to die in fourth grade. it was the most terrible thing in the world, I don't wish it on even my worst enemies. I was hopeless because I had everyhting a person could possibly ever need, and I was never happy anyways. I'm so lucky to have paretns who sent me to a psychologist and helped me get better, but that situation literally helped to make me an athiest. I tries everything back then, including prayer, and nobody's god ever came to help me. to me, if there is a god, that's when someone would find he/she/it. and I didn't. just becasue I'm young doesn't mean that I haven't felt hopeless. I definitely have, and prayer didn't help me. if you've never had severe clinical depression then it's hard to understand this, but living through that made me believe less in god and religion in general. just because you may have become more religious becasue of a situation like that doesn't mean that everyone will, mopo.

yeah, mopo, if i was you i wouldn't be so quick to presume things about people who you have never even met.

and as a new yorker, i thought 9/11 was a pretty desperate situation....

WTF? God wasn't there, his dumbass body just got working again, with the help of doctors, of course. (in reply to heartattack guy post). I can say that i'm an atheist, and proud of it. I have tried prayer before i turned...15 times...i want my five minutes back...and i have gone to church, and have had the collection dude come up to me and ask that i put money in the plate. I told him i didn't have any money,that i didn't expect to need money at church. he got very pissed off and demanded that i give him whatever i had. I told to go F*ck himself right infront of the whole church and left. after a few years of pondering and wondering, i realized that there was no god, that basically all religion are just there to have power over ppl and to have those ppl's give money to them. In fact, religion is the biggest cause of death in the world's history. I can say that religion is something we can do without. The idea that some invisible force is helping us is pitiful. (HELLO, GOD? JESUS? WHERE THE **** R YOU'S?!). Don't try and turn us back... we've made our choice. I believe that when i die, that will be that. No rencarnaction..no afterlife. just peace. I am not afraid to die...when u gotta go, u gotta go. i just hope my death will be fast and painless. peaceful i might add. Another sad thing is that most of the bible's BS is being proven wrong by science. That is all i got to ramble about

Originally posted by Mopoloton
That brings up another point: most of the atheists on this forum are under 21. Most likely, they’ve never experienced a situation where they had nowhere else to turn but prayer. Up until now Whammy, Borg, WindWip, sputnik, and blib have had everything handed to them on a silver plate and have no experience in the real world.
Your right, I am 18. I havn't had a situation where I would turn to prayer. If I was in a hopeless situation I would not pray, because I do not believe in God. I believe in logic, reason and I make judgements based on the experiences I've had and the experiences others have had. God has not fit into my beliefs.

As for a silver platter? You should be more careful what you write; I have not had everything handed to me. I was sent to a boot camp when I was 15, scaled 40 mountains in a 2 month period. I took the lead of 12 other kids on a 5 day trek and to prove my leadership at the end of it, I took a second 7 mile portage to pick up the last canoe that another could not carry. I worked my ass off to prove to my parents that the mistakes I made in the past would not happen again. I am in college right now, I'm paying for it myself working as a lifeguard and I'm setting up internships with a real estate developer to learn the trade I wish to get into. I did these on my own. No one gave any of this to me. My life is my own and I would not take any one elses' no matter how glamorous.

I also hear a lot of talk about how the bible was written by men. That may be true, but these men only wrote what God told them to write, so technically God was the one who wrote the bible. That’s why every word of it is true.
Men are also known to be deceptive, self serving and to lie. The events written in the bible were written years after they happened, which leaves much room for interpretation, exaggeration and for people who just want a part of it.

Life doesn’t begin on it’s own. I’m sorry, but that just doesn’t happen! Something had to start the life cycle, and in order for the life cycle to continue without failing, that something had to be an intelligent consciousness.
Infinite monkeys at infinite typewriters will eventually produce the works of Shakespeare, but in this case it was a couple years and just a few planets.

Originally posted by Mopoloton
That brings up another point: most of the atheists on this forum are under 21. Most likely, they’ve never experienced a situation where they had nowhere else to turn but prayer. Up until now Whammy, Borg, WindWip, sputnik, and blib have had everything handed to them on a silver plate and have no experience in the real world. They have no idea what a hopeless condition feels like. If any of them really gave prayer a try I guarantee they’d begin to change their atheist beliefs.
Try again. My mom died seven months ago, I didn't even feel the need to pray. And I was a Christian just three years ago, and that didn't do much for me either.

And, when my mom was alive, I'd hardly call her the type that handed her kids everything without making them work for it.

That brings up another point: most of the atheists on this forum are under 21. Most likely, they’ve never experienced a situation where they had nowhere else to turn but prayer. Up until now Whammy, Borg, WindWip, sputnik, and blib have had everything handed to them on a silver plate and have no experience in the real world.
Dammit, since my name is on there I feel obligated to reply to your stupidity, even though everybody else already has. When I was younger I was in the same position as Whammy. I was picked on, thrown around, the loser of the school, hardly even the nerds talked to me. Unfortunatly I wasn't so privilaged as whammy, to get a psychologist, or really any assistance through it. My mother handed me a knife to slit my wrists with, I didn't, not in front of her, but later I did, and didn't let them know it. I prayed often during that time, thinking god would be the last one to turn to. Want to know what I learned out of that, nobody is going to help you, nobody, nothing. Especially not in your time of need, have to do it all for yourself. A few years after that was when I gave up religion, just last year. I've prayed, and it is all just a bunch of bullshit.

I also hear a lot of talk about how the bible was written by men. That may be true, but these men only wrote what God told them to write, so technically God was the one who wrote the bible. That’s why every word of it is true.
What about the 40 some odd gospels that Constantine and his magi looked through, finding the ones that allowed them to stay in power. The entire church was built upon fabrications, the bible was never put together, and much of it written, until a Roman emperor got his hands on it, and looked to it attempting to sustain the rule of him and his decendents. The people who indoctrine, are generally the most doctrined in.

Life doesn’t begin on it’s own. I’m sorry, but that just doesn’t happen! Something had to start the life cycle, and in order for the life cycle to continue without failing, that something had to be an intelligent consciousness.
I want you to explain to me why it has to be of something of intelligent consciousness.

By the way, how was God created?
If your answer is 'He always existed' then give me a little backing on it.

I remember my pastor once starting a sermon with the words “do you recall anyone praying for the blind man after he was healed?” Of all the sermons I heard this is the one I remember the most because it hit so close to home. When I first started taking religion seriously is when I suddenly began to encounter some real problems. It was as if converting to Christianity had somehow sparked them, and they all hit me at once. Naturally, I began to question God and wonder why this was happening to me. I was damn close to turning my back on God, but with support from church members, I didn’t. I toughed it out and somehow managed to keep my faith. It was after I pulled through it when I realized my spirituality was a lot stronger than it had been. When I look back now, it all makes perfect sense to me, though it didn’t while it was happening. If nothing bad ever happened to us, we would have no reason to pray. Without evil, we wouldn’t know what good was. This is also a method of testing one’s faith; anyone can stand on a podium and pretend to preach the word of God, but there’s no way to tell if that person is truly faithful unless they prove it. This is how I know my place in Heaven is secure, because I passed the test.

I know exactly what clinical depression is WhammyBar, because I went through the same phase when I was 16, for the same reason: I had everything I wanted. When a teenager gets everything he wants, he becomes spoiled, and therefore gets extremely upset, even suicidal, when something doesn’t go his way. As a teen that has it all Whammy, you’re very prone to making mountains out of molehills. Chances are, when you enter the working world, you’re going to look back on your teenage problems and realize they were all just Childs play compared to true hardships.

Sputnik, were you DIRECTLY affected by the 9/11 attacks, or did you just watch it on the news like the rest of us did?

Windwip, it’s easy for you to say what you would and wouldn’t do in a helpless situation because you’ve never really experienced one. Hearing about it and actually experiencing it are two completely different things. Most likely, your own actions are what caused you to get sent to boot camp. Right?

Blib, did you read what I said to Whammy? The same goes for you. You may think you have the worst problems in the world right now, but when you start living on your own and paying your own bills you’re going to get hit with one hell of a reality check. You may also want to rewrite that last question in your post, it’s a little jumbled up.

Originally posted by cx33
WTF? God wasn't there, his dumbass body just got working again, with the help of doctors, of course. (in reply to heartattack guy post). I can say that i'm an atheist, and proud of it. I have tried prayer before i turned...15 times...i want my five minutes back...and i have gone to church, and have had the collection dude come up to me and ask that i put money in the plate. I told him i didn't have any money,that i didn't expect to need money at church. he got very pissed off and demanded that i give him whatever i had. I told to go F*ck himself right infront of the whole church and left. after a few years of pondering and wondering, i realized that there was no god, that basically all religion are just there to have power over ppl and to have those ppl's give money to them. In fact, religion is the biggest cause of death in the world's history. I can say that religion is something we can do without. The idea that some invisible force is helping us is pitiful. (HELLO, GOD? JESUS? WHERE THE **** R YOU'S?!). Don't try and turn us back... we've made our choice. I believe that when i die, that will be that. No rencarnaction..no afterlife. just peace. I am not afraid to die...when u gotta go, u gotta go. i just hope my death will be fast and painless. peaceful i might add. Another sad thing is that most of the bible's BS is being proven wrong by science. That is all i got to ramble about

I’m not sure what kind of church you went to, but I’ve never heard of one where you HAD to put money into the collection plate. Any church member who gets mad because you don’t put money into the pot has obviously got some serious anger management issues. This, of course, is assuming your story is true and not just made up to discredit Christians. Also, why on Earth did you call Vilepagan a dumbass?

Windwip, it’s easy for you to say what you would and wouldn’t do in a helpless situation because you’ve never really experienced one. Hearing about it and actually experiencing it are two completely different things.
I have not experienced one, but I have a definite belief that there is no God. If I was in a hopeless situation I would try to get myself out of it first, then try to make the best of it. I can promise you that there would be no instance, short of putting a gun to my head demanding me to pray, where I would pray.
Most likely, your own actions are what caused you to get sent to boot camp. Right?
Yes it was my fault I was sent there. I broke into my school 3 times, stole a computer and chemicals (I liked chemistry a lot then, smokebombs, big explosions etc...) then a friend ratted on me. My point was that I did not get life handed to me on a silver platter. It was my fault and I paid for it, 150 hours community service, thousands of dollars, boot camp and the trust of all my family. As of now, I support myself a huge amount and pay for my entire schooling. My parents give me a place to stay and my meals. Even then I help out around the house as much as my parents need me to.

Mopo: You replied to everyone but me. Why?

Is he fighting bears again????????

Mopo: You replied to everyone but me. Why?
Nobody loves you :D.

Blib, did you read what I said to Whammy? The same goes for you. You may think you have the worst problems in the world right now, but when you start living on your own and paying your own bills you’re going to get hit with one hell of a reality check. You may also want to rewrite that last question in your post, it’s a little jumbled up.
Yeah, I read, and that isn't my reason. You'd have to be a loser geek to understand, and if you fall into the same category as me, lucky you, you're one of the few who's life sucked since before pre-school. My parents don't hand me everything on a silver platter, and I'm not spoiled. I've spent more than half my life grounded because my brother lied, I know not fair.

Regardless to that bullshit, my last question was perfectly fine, nothing needs to be changed. Why does it have to be of an intelligent consciousness? And maybe the Raelians are right, maybe it was just aliens. Their religion is more logical than modern christianity.

Originally posted by Mopoloton

I know exactly what clinical depression is WhammyBar, because I went through the same phase when I was 16, for the same reason: I had everything I wanted. When a teenager gets everything he wants, he becomes spoiled, and therefore gets extremely upset, even suicidal, when something doesn’t go his way. As a teen that has it all Whammy, you’re very prone to making mountains out of molehills. Chances are, when you enter the working world, you’re going to look back on your teenage problems and realize they were all just Childs play compared to true hardships.




First of all, I was nine, not a teenager. secind of all, if you think that what you;re descridibing is clinical depression, it's not. when things don't go my way,I work to make the situation as good as possible for myself, and deal. I wasn't depressed becasue I "didn't get my way". I was depressed becasue I'd just moved back from a foreign country and my old freind were spreadinh rumours about me, and making my life asm iserable, and my teachers couldn;t have cared less, and becasue it's a chemical imbalance tat runs in my family. it's hereditry for me to be clinicaly depressed. my life is easy, I admit it, but I realize that the problems I have now aren't so big. but that doesn't make my feelings less valid. I was clincally depressed becasue a bad situation trigered it, and I was laready at risk. it's something that still effects me to this day, and I'm really disgusted that you are trying to devalue it, and make it seem like it;'s my own fault. I don't understand how you could have gone through clinical depression if you treat it in such a harsh manner when it's an extremely sensitive subject.

I don't believe in clinical depression. It is just a way for your psychologist to calm you down, a placebo. It's your fault for getting reactive and actually caring what others think. People can try and twist things around to where it sounds like everybody's fault but theirs, but it can easily be followed back to something stupid they did.

/*end rant on clinical depression
Just don't hurt me for it, I've gotten yelled at too many times for my views on depression that's not your fault */

Originally posted by Blibblob
I don't believe in clinical depression. It is just a way for your psychologist to calm you down, a placebo. It's your fault for getting reactive and actually caring what others think. People can try and twist things around to where it sounds like everybody's fault but theirs, but it can easily be followed back to something stupid they did.

/*end rant on clinical depression
Just don't hurt me for it, I've gotten yelled at too many times for my views on depression that's not your fault */


I beelive in clinical depression, becasue I realized that what made me so depressed wasn't just the circumstances I was in, it was actually chemicals in my head that got screwed, whish was triggered by my situation. it's nobody's fault that I was depressed, including my own, but a combination of cicumstances lined up and I was unlucky enough to go through what I did.It was coming out of depression that made me realize not to give a shit what people thought of me.

I beelive in clinical depression, becasue I realized that what made me so depressed wasn't just the circumstances I was in, it was actually chemicals in my head that got screwed, whish was triggered by my situation.
AHA, I just caught circular logic. "It was actually chemicals in my head that got scread, which was triggered by my situation". Let's reword that, "The situation I was in triggered 'chemicals'". Well then, since we all know that it is chemicals and electrical currents that cause how and what you think, and they are affected by your surroundings, don't you think that it is your surroundings that caused you to get depressed? Chemical imbalance is still due to what occurs around you, it can be affected by genetics, but it has to start somewhere. It is your fault you took heed, and let your brain release a defense mechanism.

Originally posted by Blibblob
I beelive in clinical depression, becasue I realized that what made me so depressed wasn't just the circumstances I was in, it was actually chemicals in my head that got screwed, whish was triggered by my situation.
AHA, I just caught circular logic. "It was actually chemicals in my head that got scread, which was triggered by my situation". Let's reword that, "The situation I was in triggered 'chemicals'". Well then, since we all know that it is chemicals and electrical currents that cause how and what you think, and they are affected by your surroundings, don't you think that it is your surroundings that caused you to get depressed? Chemical imbalance is still due to what occurs around you, it can be affected by genetics, but it has to start somewhere. It is your fault you took heed, and let your brain release a defense mechanism.


took heed? I was a little kid who wanted to fit in and have freinds. is that so terrible? you're making it sound like it's a.) my fauly entirely and b.) really horiible that I letm myself get depressed.

took heed? I was a little kid who wanted to fit in and have freinds. is that so terrible?
Yes. Do realize that much of this comes from my disdain of the human population since I have had one good friend in my lifetime, and that just disapeared one year, a long time ago. Really, that isn't so wrong, as it is human nature. The problem doesn't lie in you wanting friends, it lies in actually caring when they don't want you.

you're making it sound like it's a.) my fauly entirely
That is because it is my firm opinion that it is.

b.) really horiible that I letm myself get depressed.
Happy or indifferent. Why care over such a futile and miniscule affair?

You moved this away from the medical and biological aspect and attempted to move this to emotions. What did you plan to accomplish?

Originally posted by Blibblob
took heed? I was a little kid who wanted to fit in and have freinds. is that so terrible?
Yes. Do realize that much of this comes from my disdain of the human population since I have had one good friend in my lifetime, and that just disapeared one year, a long time ago. Really, that isn't so wrong, as it is human nature. The problem doesn't lie in you wanting friends, it lies in actually caring when they don't want you.

you're making it sound like it's a.) my fauly entirely
That is because it is my firm opinion that it is.

b.) really horiible that I letm myself get depressed.
Happy or indifferent. Why care over such a futile and miniscule affair?

You moved this away from the medical and biological aspect and attempted to move this to emotions. What did you plan to accomplish?


first of all, stop being a jackass. I was depressed, I had good reason to be, I was a litle kid with people, including the adults I had trusted my whole life making me miserable.
I don't know nay nine year olds msture enough to not care what people think about them. there are both chemicals and meotionsi nvovled in depression, which makes it a really sticky issue. and the way you responded to this thread might be a clu as to why you've oinly ever had one good freind. I heard once that sometimes really msart people forget to be nice when giving their isnights into things. remember that you have a heart, along with a brain.

first of all, stop being a jackass.
I've learned to be quite good at it.

I was depressed, I had good reason to be, I was a litle kid with people, including the adults I had trusted my whole life making me miserable.
And why were they making you miserable? And how? Those could be large clues as to reason of the depression. And could better my argument :D

I don't know nay nine year olds msture enough to not care what people think about them.
Neither do I, but why is that?

and the way you responded to this thread might be a clu as to why you've oinly ever had one good freind.
I didn't used to be much of a jackass, ask borg, was I a jackass in middle school? Some said I was annoying. If I was a jackass, it was reactive. I wasn't a jock, I couldn't be agresively a jackass.

blib, i definitely think you ARE being a jackass. whammy was depressed, is it really any of your business to acutally argue over it with her like this? is it called for at all for you to tell her that it's her fault? since when did you consider yourself entitled to judge someone like that?

i don't think you'd care that i think this, but i respected you before and i believe i've lost that respect.

blib...why dont you 3 ladies send each other pm's and keep your little soap opera to yourselves?

Originally posted by HaVoK
blib...why dont you 3 ladies send each other pm's and keep your little soap opera to yourselves?
Agreed...though Blib isn't a lady...I hope...I mean, he looks like one...::dodges swinging fist:: :D

Borg, no fist, pen.

blib...why dont you 3 ladies send each other pm's and keep your little soap opera to yourselves?
:p. All I did was denied the existance of clinical depression, this depression in which it's not your fault, it's these chemicals that just start themselves.

whammy was depressed, is it really any of your business to acutally argue over it with her like this? is it called for at all for you to tell her that it's her fault? since when did you consider yourself entitled to judge someone like that?
If she didn't want her depression brought into it, she shouldn't have brought it in. See what I posted in reply to Havok, I wasn't trying to bring this to a personal level. I'm not judging people, I'm judging scientific processes, this psychological/biological disorder.

Take this off of a singular personal level, let's bring this to a whole. When you're depressed, who do you blame it on? It is human nature to find a scapegoat when something goes wrong. It is human nature to blame all the problems in your life on somebody or something else. I never tried to say that that doesn't happen. All I'm saying is that if you escape this nature, move past it, you'll realize whos fault it is. Humans have the ability to let their minds break free from the bonds of nature, of our reptilian brains. People always get angry when I bring up depression, I got verbally attacked by another group of people when I basically said that suicidal people are a bunch of idiots, they gave up, surrendered to the people that are "ruining" their life. Drop the anger and take a look, I believe that I'm right(logically), and it is your emotion talking.

There, now I'm done. Hate me all you want. Lose your respect, I'm a very unorthodox liberal.

It’s amazing how a topic can do a complete 180-degree turn on this forum.
Originally posted by BorgHunter
Mopo: You replied to everyone but me. Why?
There’s a perfectly good reason why I didn’t respond to you… and I’ll tell you later.

Originally posted by Mopoloton
There’s a perfectly good reason why I didn’t respond to you… and I’ll tell you later.
Now you've piqued my interest, especially with "I'll tell you later".

out fighting bears again?

Keep in mind that I didn’t say how much later. I need to think of the right way to say it without accidentally sounding sensitive.

Originally posted by Mopoloton
Keep in mind that I didn’t say how much later. I need to think of the right way to say it without accidentally sounding sensitive.
Got to keep up that manly, masculine image, eh Mopo?

http://www.sptimes.com/2003/04/12/photos/tb-reward.jpg

:D :D :D :D :D that is GREAT

No bear would ever get that close to me without receiving an imprint of my high school ring on the side of its head.

Followed a few hours later by the bear crapping your ring out of its ass . . .

Originally posted by LionelHutz
Followed a few hours later by the bear crapping your ring out of its ass . . . LMAO Lionel....

Originally posted by LionelHutz
Followed a few hours later by the bear crapping your ring out of its ass . . .

HAHAHAHAHA....that's a good one lionel....:D

Can’t crap if it’s dead.

Originally posted by Mopoloton
Can’t crap if it’s dead.
Probably died of laughter at your girlishly weak attempts to ward it off.

I feel an atheist is just a frustrated agnostic. With all of this crap in the world going on in the name of god or allah or whatever, it doesn't matter they are all technically figments of the imagination thus far of course. It really does get frustrating that so many people let something they can't prove exists in any way whatsoever, never mind how ridiculous some of it sounds run their lives and the lives of others. Can you believe there are millions of people killing each other over nothing more than a glorified fairytale! It's sickening and that is why I think people go to the extreme to call themselves atheists.Total frustration with idiocy!

Dpends on the type of atheist you're talking about, civa. Some people, like me, are technically agnostic but don't want to explain what an agnostic is every five seconds, so just term themselves atheists. Others, also like me, are highly doubtful of a god, not ruling it out, but doubtful, and feel that is a bit too strong for agnosticism.

I completely agree Borghunter. I feel that I'm the same way,but you just never know.