Ya' hear Porky Limbaugh talkin' about strife, within the Democratic Party.....while he's (at the same time) ignoring Conservative-ire with Lil' Dumbya's smaller-government!! (http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20031229-113614-7963r.htm)

"I'm hearing a lot of anger," says Richard Viguerie, the guru of conservative political direct mail. "I'm beginning, for the first time, [to hear] people talk about 'it would not be the worst thing in the world if Howard Dean were president,' because the size of government would stay still rather than increase 50 percent under a second Bush administration."

howard dean MAY win 1 state, so keep copying and pasting and believing, someone will come along and uncover you when its all over.

Originally posted by Travh20
howard dean MAY win 1 state, so keep copying and pasting and believing, someone will come along and uncover you when its all over.
LOL, Trav, your Bush-loving goes all the way into delusion. One state? I think Dean may do slightly better than that, don't you?

ok, 2 states then

Originally posted by BorgHunter
LOL, Trav, your Bush-loving goes all the way into delusion. One state? I think Dean may do slightly better than that, don't you?

He might, but no one will ever know because he'll put it all under seal.

Originally posted by Travh20
howard dean MAY win 1 state, so keep copying and pasting and believing, someone will come along and uncover you when its all over.

Jeez! You're resorting to re-heated conservative-rhetoric?

That was the same line-of-thinking.......about Clinton......in '92!

Although the deficit is certainly a problem - it is due to several valid reasons

- Recession due to collaspse of 90's false promise
- 9-11 => 2 wars and homeland security

Dean is rather scary - he said he would reverse tax cuts - what a great idea - NOT ! We can be thankful he hasn't got a chance.

The dems are slinging so much mud at Dean that there are a bookfull of quotes that Bush can use against him come campaign time. Lets hope he wins the nomination - so Bush can win a landslide victory in 04

Originally posted by Mr. Shaman
Jeez! You're resorting to re-heated conservative-rhetoric?

That was the same line-of-thinking.......about Clinton......in '92!

Clinton didnt run on the blame America-anti war-hard left platform either, he made promises that leaned to the right to get in, then went left once he got into office. Remember his first big "victory"? Dont ask dont tell, ya, that changed america :rolleyes:

"Don't ask, don't tell" is bubba klinton's personal motto.

Originally posted by DrewM

Dean is rather scary - he said he would reverse tax cuts - what a great idea - NOT ! We can be thankful he hasn't got a chance.



What's wrong with eliminating tax cuts for the wealthiest americans? They can afford to pay a lot more than they do.

"The top 1% of the population in this country owns almost 25 times as much wealth as the bottom 20% of the population"- Bushwhacked, Molly Ivins & Lou Dubose -p. 40

They can certainly afford it, but why force them to dump more money onto government than they do already? Face it, you want higher taxes.

The top 1% of the population pays a great deal of the total tax in this country, as Ivins and Dubose would likely point out.

so much for no discrimination. I guess its OK to discriminate against people who make a lot of money.

Originally posted by DrewM
Although the deficit is certainly a problem - it is due to several valid reasons

- Recession due to collaspse of 90's false promise
- 9-11 => 2 wars and homeland security.

Ah, yes! But, we can all sleep better, each nite, knowing Halliburton, Bechtel, Cheney and the Bush-oil conglomerate are all getting-by!!!

Originally posted by Travh20
Clinton didnt run on the blame America-anti war-hard left platform either, he made promises that leaned to the right to get in, then went left once he got into office. Remember his first big "victory"? Dont ask dont tell, ya, that changed america :rolleyes:
The big difference was......Clinton KNEW what he was doing (http://www.businessweek.com/1999/99_32/b3641059.htm).......and, electing him payed-off BIG TIME!!!!!!! (http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/09/27/clinton.surplus/index.html)

What really pisses-off Republicans, is........they were soooooooooooooo sure they'd saddled him with inescapable (i.e. well-done) debt.........and, he STILL succeded!!!!!!!! (http://news4florida.tripod.com/indexfraud.html)

Sooooooooooooooo.......we're comin'-up on (the end) of 4 years!!!! Has Lil' Dumbya done HALF of what Bill Clinton accomplished?????? (http://clinton5.nara.gov/WH/Accomplishments/eightyears-01.html)

NEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by psamtik071
Face it, you want higher taxes.

Face it, that's not what I said at all. I think the wealthiest americans did not deserve to be the beneficiaries of a tax CUT.
They already enjoy tax benefits unavailable to poor and middle class americans.

Mr. Bush also wants to eliminate ALL taxes on stock dividends.
This income from stocks is UNEARNED income. That means that people who already have a pile of money sitting around will be able to give it to a broker who can make that pile bigger and they will pay NO taxes on that income.

I.E. the rich will get richer and the poor and middle class can sit and watch it happen, without being able to participate in this tax break themselves.

I know, it's agood thing for the economy to have people invest their money in stocks, but somehow i don't think the rich will stop investing in the stock market just because their dividend income is taxed.

Originally posted by Travh20
Remember his first big "victory"? Dont ask dont tell, ya, that changed america :rolleyes:

BTW........Bill Clinton's first legislation was The Family Leave Act (http://www.bizjournals.com/washington/stories/1996/10/21/focus4.html)........another one o' those cataclysmic-moves that was destined to KILL capitalism, as we know it (per all the conservative-predictions)!!!

This all probably happened when you were still throwing stones at little girls, during recess, so it's not surprising you'd missed it.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
What's wrong with eliminating tax cuts for the wealthiest americans? They can afford to pay a lot more than they do.

.....And, the ones who aren't blinded by their greed, don't mind SAYING as much!!!!!!! (http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1009597/posts)

Originally posted by Vilepagan
What's wrong with eliminating tax cuts for the wealthiest americans? They can afford to pay a lot more than they do.

"The top 1% of the population in this country owns almost 25 times as much wealth as the bottom 20% of the population"- Bushwhacked, Molly Ivins & Lou Dubose -p. 40

I guess it's a personal viewpoint - each to his own, but I fundamentally disagree with the logic that wealthy people should pay at a much steeper rate.

People who earn more already DO PAY MORE - not only because it's a %, but also because the rate increases.

So, a tax cut - will automatically give them a greater $ benefit - but they still pay more. That is the way it should be - it should not be only poor people get tax relief.

Remember - that our system is driven by a system of market based reward - if you create something that has value to others you get rewarded for it. Why then treat the citizens that actually create wealth in the society as if they were criminals to be punished with unfair treatment?

Now of course there is the whole issue of social disadvantage and that is a valid issue, but taking money from people that earned it & giving it to people who didn't earn it is not the way to fix such problems. Communism doesn't work.

Originally posted by Travh20
so much for no discrimination. I guess its OK to discriminate against people who make a lot of money.

Nope.....just the greedy pricks who feel they got some Divine Right to everyone else's pension-funds, as well!!!

Yes but that is a small bunch of people - there are always criminals in every social level.

There is this underlying liberal thinking that if you have money you somehow must have cheated to get it. It's quite possible to be very well off and have never screwed anybody to get there. In fact this is the norm.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Mr. Bush also wants to eliminate ALL taxes on stock dividends.
This income from stocks is UNEARNED income. That means that people who already have a pile of money sitting around will be able to give it to a broker who can make that pile bigger and they will pay NO taxes on that income.

That was part of Sweet Stevie Forbes' campaign-promises (during his Presidential-campaign)......that a flat-tax would only apply to direct-income......and, all capital-gains would be tax-free!!!!

Yeah......that'd be quite the perk for folks trying to get-by on entry-level wages.........while their taxes are needed to subsidize those poor folks cashin' in on stock-sales!!!!

Originally posted by DrewM
Remember - that our system is driven by a system of market based reward - if you create something that has value to others you get rewarded for it.

So......where do these (same) folks think they're gonna GO, after they've (financially) driven our system into-the-ground??

You'd think they'd be prone to be a little more gracious about being born-into such a system!!!

Originally posted by DrewM
There is this underlying liberal thinking that if you have money you somehow must have cheated to get it.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh.......that's what we're thinkin', huh?

How fortunate you conservatives must feel......you know......due to your psychic-abilities, and all!!

But that is such a false notion. You work hard you get rewarded - it's that simple. It doesn't have to be emotive or racked with guilt and it doesn't mean the system is driven into the ground. To the contrary - the system has created the best living conditions year upon year - where even the poor people live like kings compared to much of the earths population. The success of the US didn't happen by accident or random good luck.

Nobody should be ashamed of success and the rewards it brings. Being wealthy is a very good thing indeed, not a disgraceful situation. Wealthy people also pay more taxes - a lot more. Who is paying for all the social services in this country? It sure ain't the people who have no abilities other than wait for handouts.

A lot of anti-wealth views are not only driven by a sense of miss-placed social responsibility, a lot of it is just pure jealousy.

In terms of what you are thinking - I did not single you out, I said an underlying liberal thinking. It can't be denied.

We can all see who the logical one is here.

Originally posted by DrewM
A lot of anti-wealth views are not only driven by a sense of miss-placed social responsibility, a lot of it is just pure jealousy

Liberals think everyone should sacrifice for the common good - as long as someone else sacrifices more than them.

Originally posted by Mr. Shaman
The Family Leave Act

And how much do you really know about FMLA? As a manager it's the bane of my existance. You have absolutely no idea how much time I, and the HR people, and the benefits people, and our insurers, etc. etc. waste on that. The intention was a good one, but as usual, the law itself is so f**ked up it becomes unworkable. Get this - if one of my employees does anything that might imply a long term illness, I have to drop everything and see that they get all of the necessary FMLA paperwork. OK, that's not a problem. But if I don't, suddenly I'm civilly liable for my oversight. And it's not like they have to tell me they're sick, either. I have to read their mind!

As usual, the democrats worked under the assumption that corporations are evil and that they won't possibly do anything nice for their employees unless severe penalties are imposed.

Originally posted by Mr. Shaman
BTW........Bill Clinton's first legislation was The Family Leave Act (http://www.bizjournals.com/washington/stories/1996/10/21/focus4.html)........another one o' those cataclysmic-moves that was destined to KILL capitalism, as we know it (per all the conservative-predictions)!!!

This all probably happened when you were still throwing stones at little girls, during recess, so it's not surprising you'd missed it.


actually I was sweating my ass off as an infantryman on the horn of africa during operation Restore Hope when clinton came into office. shows what you know you condenscending prick.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
And how much do you really know about FMLA? As a manager it's the bane of my existance. You have absolutely no idea how much time I, and the HR people, and the benefits people, and our insurers, etc. etc. waste on that.

Hmmmmmmm.......let's see.........

" Nationally, the Family and Medical Leave Act has met with acceptance by employers.

Buck Consultants of Seacaucus, N.J., a worldwide employee benefits, actuarial and compensation consulting firm, conducted a national survey earlier this year and concluded "that the growing prevalence of work and family benefit programs appears to be having a favorable effect on employers, especially those with predominantly female workers." The survey examined how employers are handling Family and Medical Leave Act requirements.

"Employers are recognizing that implementing work and family programs can have a positive impact on their employees, and often contributes to lower absenteeism, reduced tardiness and less turnover," said Suzanne Kidd, a principal at Buck Consultants. "

Maybe your problem is less-than-adequate managment-skills.:rolleyes:

Originally posted by DrewM
To the contrary - the system has created the best living conditions year upon year - where even the poor people live like kings compared to much of the earths population.

Yeah.......you really sound like someone who's lived that life.:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Travh20
actually I was sweating my ass off as an infantryman on the horn of africa during operation Restore Hope when clinton came into office. shows what you know you condenscending prick.

Gee.........another Bush.......another (attempted) oil-grab...........

I'm shocked............. (http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Project%20Censored/CensoredNews_1993.html)

Originally posted by Mr. Shaman
Maybe your problem is less-than-adequate managment-skills.:rolleyes:

I guess that's why I keep getting those raises and promotions. :)

Your problem is that you don't know a damn thing about anything. You have no opinions of your own. You substitute insults for debate. And on top of it, you think you're a genius. How do you support yourself? What skills do you have besides the ability to parrot what other people say? I see no point in ever responding to any of your posts, and I fully encourage everyone else to ignore you as well.

In response, I assume you will declare victory and assume that you have proven yourself the intellectual superior to everyone else here. Probably by linking to a website that offers "proof." Fine, I don't give a rat's ass anymore.

Originally posted by Mr. Shaman
Yeah.......you really sound like someone who's lived that life.:rolleyes:

Like - what has that got to do with anything? - Beyond the fact that you don't know jack shit about anything to do with my life - where was I stating anything other than plain fact? I can appreciate that you have trouble with facts.

The bottom line for you Mr Shaman is your "borrowed ideas" suck and you obviously can't back them up with a single intelligent thing to say - I guess that chip on your shoulder is weighing you down too much :D

I'm afraid of who is going to be in the Whitehouse be it Bush, Dean or the fairy god mother. Repubs, like to make it better for big business because they ARE big buisness. The want the poor to stay poor while the rich get richer. Hell, if they had anything to do about it they wouldn't let people who make less than $75,000 a year vote.

On the contrary - the Democrats want the poor to stay poor - that way they'll keep voting Democratic. Big business has an incentive to make everyone rich because then everyone will buy more stuff.

dont be so logical hutz, you may destroy their fantasy world where republicans poison water, hold down the poor, enrich the rich and attack innocent countrys who are no harm to anyone. meanwhile, democrats are on a constant fight (for the last 50 years) to rescue the minoritys from poverty, clean up the environmnet and get everyones vote counted. LMAO

Originally posted by DrewM
You work hard you get rewarded - it's that simple.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah.........sure...........unless you're The Idiot Son!!!!!!!!!! (http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#insider)

Originally posted by DrewM
Like - what has that got to do with anything? - Beyond the fact that you don't know jack shit about anything to do with my life - where was I stating anything other than plain fact?

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh......so, when you said the system has created the best living conditions year upon year - where even the poor people live like kings compared to much of the earths population.......it was plain fact......but (as usual) you're unable to come-up with those facts. Pardon me. I thought this was the first instance where you weren't falling-back on bullshit, conservative-rhetoric.:rolleyes:

I guess the fact America's poor live so well was (simply) what they say, huh.......another one o' those little everyone knows-gems, huh?

hey, even the idiot son had his bright moments...

Originally posted by LionelHutz
Big business has an incentive to make everyone rich because then everyone will buy more stuff.

Ah, yes........the thing that makes America great; the ability to buy more stuff!!!!!!!!!

I guess that's where we get all our morality-coupons!!!!!!!!:rolleyes:

Originally posted by silverbulletkc
hey, even the idiot son had his bright moments...

That's true.........but, lucky (for him)......and his Daddy's fat bank-account.......he wasn't convicted for any of them!! (http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm)

Shaman's baaa, baaaa, baaaaing & not saying anything.

Shaman - I challenge you to make a post with more than a stupid comment plus a link

i second that challenge...along with adding something REAL to debate about

I don't know why you bother responding to him at all . . .

Looks like Lil' Dumbya's smaller-government is STILL putting-on weight!!!!!! (http://usatoday.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?action=cpt&title=USATODAY.com+-+Conservatives+simmer+as+spending+mushrooms+under+ Bush&expire=&urlID=8709516&fb=Y&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usatoday.com%2Fnews%2Fwashing ton%2F2004-01-05-bush-spending_x.htm&partnerID=1660)

"While Bush has emphasized repeatedly the need to rein in spending, overall federal expenditures have grown to an estimated $2.31 trillion for the budget year that started Oct. 1. That is up from $1.86 trillion in President Clinton's final year, a rate of growth not seen for any three-year period since 1989 to 1991.

What has vexed conservatives most is the 31.5% growth since Bush took office in discretionary spending. That is the one-third of the budget lawmakers approve annually for defense, domestic security, school aid and everything else except Social Security and other benefits.

Such spending grew by an annual average of 3.4% during Clinton's eight years.