The fact that old women and children can cross into El Paso on a daily basis just to pan handle tells me that the US obviously isn't very serious about stopping illegal immigration. Why is this? Have citizens not been vocal enough or making this a big enough issue in Washington? Has our voting been unclear in some way?

Border Patrol lets some illegals go



EL PASO, Texas - Josefa Gonzalez Loya has sneaked across the Mexican border at least 128 times in the past eight years. And each time, the Border Patrol has been nice enough to give her a lift home.

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Gonzalez and a group of other women and children — all Indians from the southern Mexican state of Oaxaca — have no interest in staying in the United States. All they want to do is panhandle outside El Paso businesses, using the children as lures.

At the end of a productive day, they wait for the Border Patrol to come pick them up and drive them back to the border.

Little dramas like this play out day after day, accounting for thousands of arrests but hardly any prosecutions in the past several years.

The Oaxacan immigrants fall under a loophole that gives border agents discretion to keep some adults and children together and out of jail.

"They do qualify for jail and prosecution," Border Patrol spokesman Ramiro Cordero said. "However, we've got to look at the humanitarian factor first if we are going to have to separate the family."

Nearly 500 Oaxacan (pronounced wah-HAH-ken) women and children in colorful serapes have been rounded up since the fiscal year began in October, accounting for thousands of arrests.

The middle-aged Gonzalez and some of the others make a mad dash across the Rio Grande with the help of a guide. Occasionally they get caught trying to slip across, but evidently they are good at evading the Border Patrol, even though they use the same general area over and over. Sometimes, authorities realize they have arrived when they see the little footprints the diminutive immigrants leave along the banks of the Rio Grande.

Once she makes it across, Gonzalez, who speaks only a language common among Indians in Oaxaca, catches a bus to a strip mall a few miles away from the border, just far enough into El Paso to evade agents on patrol. There she starts begging for spare change.

Border agents say when she and her entourage are ready to go home, they muster in front of a store. Then they wait, knowing their presence will create enough of a nuisance that agents will come pick them up. When they do, the beggars' mugshots are taken and their fingerprints checked. Then they are walked back across the border.

"Half the time when you see them, they're ready to go," Cordero said.

Gonzalez has been arrested 128 times. Despite a crackdown on illegal immigration along much of the border, she and most of her tribal members have never been jailed.

Most illegal immigrants cannot count on the goodness of immigration officials' hearts. Unlike the Oaxacans and other Mexicans caught near the border, illegal immigrants arrested in the U.S. interior are routinely separated from their children, with some youngsters placed in foster care while their parents are deported.

Cordero said agents have the authority to "look at the totality of the circumstances" when deciding if an illegal immigrant should be prosecuted.

"They are coming to beg. They are not trying to further their entry into the United States," Cordero said.

He said it is impossible to say how much each arrest costs the taxpayers.

Gonzalez and her crew seem well-aware of the law. The women all claim the children as their own, but that would mean women obviously in their 50s and 60s have just had babies. Often the same child is claimed by different women on different days. And still, the agents err on the side of keeping the self-proclaimed "families" together.

"We're pretty sure they are family units or at least close-knit groups," Cordero said.

Even David Hensley, manager of an El Paso department store, gives the panhandlers a few dollars before calling the authorities to take them away.

"It's good to see that the Border Patrol is showing some common sense in dealing with the reality that is life on the border," said Ruben Garcia, who runs a shelter in El Paso that sometimes houses some of the Oaxacans. "Nothing is served by locking these people up."

The fact that old women and children can cross into El Paso on a daily basis just to pan handle tells me that the US obviously isn't very serious about stopping illegal immigration. ."

These people are not trying to immigrate here. The US has i am willing to bet tens of thousands of people begging in the streets on any given day. I dont think this is an immigration issue at all. these groups of people are not trying stay here. The sad fact they can make more money in a border town begging,than working 10 miles away in their home city.

Why is this?.."
they are abusing a system I agree,but you can only abuse a system if it is set up for you to.


Have citizens not been vocal enough or making this a big enough issue in Washington?
what? the issue of pan handling?


Has our voting been unclear in some way?

did I miss a key vote on a bill that was anti begging? i am not sure what you mean here.

If you mean anti immigration i think it is clear a majority of people think this is a serious issue,but cannot agree on what needs to be done. Until we the voters get one somewhere close to the same page,Washington isn't going to budge one way or the other,except with words during elections years.

I don't really care about little old ladies coming in the morning to panhandle and leaving in the afternoon...

I don't really care about little old ladies coming in the morning to panhandle and leaving in the afternoon...

Well you should. Ya dont know how the waiting may turn out, if ya know what I mean.

Why do some of you make a distinction about illegal entry into our country? Wrong is wrong.

These people are not trying to immigrate here. The US has i am willing to bet tens of thousands of people begging in the streets on any given day. I dont think this is an immigration issue at all. these groups of people are not trying stay here. The sad fact they can make more money in a border town begging,than working 10 miles away in their home city. Who cares what their reasons are for ILLEGAL entry into our country? The reasons are certainly not benefical to Americans in any way.





they are abusing a system I agree,but you can only abuse a system if it is set up for you to. And the first step to repairing the problem is to bring attention to the problem.














If you mean anti immigration i think it is clear a majority of people think this is a serious issue,but cannot agree on what needs to be done. Until we the voters get one somewhere close to the same page,Washington isn't going to budge one way or the other,except with words during elections years.The majority has been screaming at the top of their lungs to get illegal immigration stopped. No one in washington is listening, plain and simple.

Why do some of you make a distinction about illegal entry into our country? Wrong is wrong.

Ofcourse it is wrong. It is a flagrant abuse of a system that has some loopholes. But this isn't an immigration issue. They are not trying to immigrate. They know they do not belong here and whether it is for right of reason or for benefiting circumstances they have no interests in staying here.

They are not hurting our economy,they are not draining government services like welfare,and food stamps,they are not trying to have babies on US soil,so their off spring can become Americans.

I do agree the 30 minute round trip it takes for the border control econo van to pic these people up,process them,and drop them off home is the only draw back. I am sure it is alot cheaper than prosecuting them,incarcerating them,caring for them while in the system,and releasing them some timer later....only to wash rinse and repeat.

Who cares what their reasons are for ILLEGAL entry into our country? The reasons are certainly not benefical to Americans in any way.. Show me how it hurt a typical american




And the first step to repairing the problem is to bring attention to the problem... I agree,,,,, the second step would be to find a cost effective,humane solution.














The majority has been screaming at the top of their lungs to get illegal immigration stopped. No one in washington is listening, plain and simple.

The problem of illegal immigration has alot more complex components,than ranting and raving for it to stop. No one wants four more problems to present themselves as a result of a sloppy fix of another.

I am not pro illegal immigration. I am not sure many people can say they are. However I am definitely against some half assed,half crocked plan that in the end is going to put us in a worse spot then before we even got out of the gate.

it is a delicate balance. Rounding up all the illegals and tossing them back across whatever border they came from is not a plan,nor is it the solution.
I feel the first order of business should be to prevent any more from coming over,then we work on the issue of the ones what are here,and the last part would be to work on a real working system for all future people from ANYWHERE that want to come here.

As Dharma once said,,,,we cant even begin to have an honest conversation about illegal immigrants until we look on how corrupt their own governments are to begin with.

Show me how it hurt a typical american.
Show me how stealing money from a federally insured bank "hurt a typical American".
I am not pro illegal immigration.
Boy-o-boy, it sure looks that way from where I'm sitting.
As Dharma once said,,,,we cant even begin to have an honest conversation about illegal immigrants until we look on how corrupt their own governments are to begin with.
WTF does one have to do with the other, and why should their obvious deficiencies as a nation become OUR problem? The way you prefaced that statement should've been reason enough to disregard the comment in it's entirety.

Show me how stealing money from a federally insured bank "hurt a typical American". .

show me how one has to do with the other. robbing a bank is a federal crime,pan handling isn't.

Boy-o-boy, it sure looks that way from where I'm sitting.. maybe you should stand up then,because you got it all wrong

WTF does one have to do with the other, and why should their obvious deficiencies as a nation become OUR problem?.
Again you should probably stand up,because you have it all wrong. Never said it was our problem,but i guess when you want to point fingers vs solving something you can see the fault in anything. To understand something so complex as the correct way to solve a problem like illegal immigration,one needs to understand all of the components. How are you going to solve something with exploring the root of it to begin with.

The way you prefaced that statement should've been reason enough to disregard the comment in it's entirety.

Says who? You?

Says who? You?
As well as the vast majority of posters here, but whatever.

I can see I wasted my time. Sorry for bothering you. :)

As well as the vast majority of posters here, but whatever.

I can see I wasted my time. Sorry for bothering you. :)

ahhhh come on....dont be that way.....

what i find funny as hell, the euros came to this land, raped , stole, lied, and turned the entire land into whiteyville (sorry, i see this word as funny, not offensive). and then BAM, america is slowly turning browner. and the main people who worry about "illegals"? they're white.
yesterday there was a mexican guy bumming change while i was sitting in the car waiting for the wife to go in and get a gallon of milk. he said, in a bad accent," sorry, my family is hungry. i need $5 to go to MacDonalds. " he was standing outside of a grocery store. he claimed to be peurto rican. i looked at him and said, liar. he walked away.

what i find funny as hell, the euros came to this land, raped , stole, lied, and turned the entire land into whiteyville (sorry, i see this word as funny, not offensive).You know what i find funny? It looks as though you're more pale than most white people i know, looking at your picture. Why do you hate yourself so?





and then BAM, america is slowly turning browner. and the main people who worry about "illegals"? they're white. )Funny how that works out that way when the majority is white. Go figure.




yesterday there was a mexican guy bumming change while i was sitting in the car waiting for the wife to go in and get a gallon of milk. he said, in a bad accent," sorry, my family is hungry. i need $5 to go to MacDonalds. " he was standing outside of a grocery store. he claimed to be peurto rican. i looked at him and said, liar. he walked away.No offense, but i honestly doubt you pop chops in real life the way you do on this board. Someone would have called your bluff by now.

While it may not be an illegal immigration issue it is a border control issue. Our borders should not be porous enough to allow someone to enter the country illegally 128 times. The members of the border patrol should not be rewarding such illegal behavior by drifving the woman back to the Mexican border. By doing so they are condoning the breaking of the law they are sworn to enforce. They are forcing the American taxpayer to pay for this breaking of the law.

The women should be arrested for illegal entry and placed in jail overnight. A second offense should call for two nights in jail, a third for three and so forth. Poor Mexicans should be Mexico's problem, not ours.

Allowing non-citizens to enter the country without documenting that entry (even if it's just for the purpose of panhandling for a few hours) is, first and foremost, a security issue. For that reason, we're complete fools for not putting full and complete stop to illegal entry into this country.

What's galling is the fact that Mr. Bush et al have harped so long and so loud about "homeland security" - even going so far as to create an enormous new government department - yet they've done absolutely nothing to seal our borders against illegal entry/invasion by unknown individuals.

:rant:

Allowing non-citizens to enter the country without documenting that entry (even if it's just for the purpose of panhandling for a few hours) is, first and foremost, a security issue. For that reason, we're complete fools for not putting full and complete stop to illegal entry into this country.

What's galling is the fact that Mr. Bush et al have harped so long and so loud about "homeland security" - even going so far as to create an enormous new government department - yet they've done absolutely nothing to seal our borders against illegal entry/invasion by unknown individuals.

:rant:Quoted entirely for truth.

Dont you people know that the next attack if any will come from a bomber who will fly in from Europe, have a fortnites holiday in Florida,then disappear.

Or at least thats the impression Homeland Security give.

Allowing non-citizens to enter the country without documenting that entry (even if it's just for the purpose of panhandling for a few hours) is, first and foremost, a security issue. For that reason, we're complete fools for not putting full and complete stop to illegal entry into this country.

What's galling is the fact that Mr. Bush et al have harped so long and so loud about "homeland security" - even going so far as to create an enormous new government department - yet they've done absolutely nothing to seal our borders against illegal entry/invasion by unknown individuals.

:rant:
You're 110% on target, Fran. Sad as it is, it's the truth. :(

Dont you people know that the next attack if any will come from a bomber who will fly in from Europe, have a fortnites holiday in Florida,then disappear.

Or at least thats the impression Homeland Security give.
if you think that's bad, wait until you get on the big silver bird to go home.

i don't hate white. but i find that most people who are up in arms about "illegals" are always white.
i may look white dude. but genetically, i am part white, black, and american indian. my whole family is a mish mash of the world. i have 2 cousins who are part white and part korean. 4 cousins who are part white and american indian. 3 cousins who are part semitic (father is a non-practicing jew).
take my bluff? eh, believe what you want.

Allowing non-citizens to enter the country without documenting that entry (even if it's just for the purpose of panhandling for a few hours) is, first and foremost, a security issue. For that reason, we're complete fools for not putting full and complete stop to illegal entry into this country.

What's galling is the fact that Mr. Bush et al have harped so long and so loud about "homeland security" - even going so far as to create an enormous new government department - yet they've done absolutely nothing to seal our borders against illegal entry/invasion by unknown individuals.

:rant:


you can only seal the borders of this country if you do a nazi germany or old soviet thing. i don't think a lot of people will go for that. well, like franklin said? those who give up freedom for security usually get neither.
the more you step on someone the more likely they'll hurt you back in some way.
i don't think security in this country is worth losing freedoms all because of paranoia.

i don't hate white. but i find that most people who are up in arms about "illegals" are always white.
i may look white dude. but genetically, i am part white, black, and american indian. my whole family is a mish mash of the world. i have 2 cousins who are part white and part korean. 4 cousins who are part white and american indian. 3 cousins who are part semitic (father is a non-practicing jew).
take my bluff? eh, believe what you want.
maybe because most ppl in the U.S. are white?

you can only seal the borders of this country if you do a nazi germany or old soviet thing. i don't think a lot of people will go for that. well, like franklin said? those who give up freedom for security usually get neither.
the more you step on someone the more likely they'll hurt you back in some way.
i don't think security in this country is worth losing freedoms all because of paranoia.
it doesn't take a fence to seal the borders, it doesn't take a 100,000 more border patrol agents, it just takes enforcing the laws we already have, then the border patrol and DEA can concentrate on the odd truck sneaking across the frontiers.

probably the most easiest way to make most of it work, is for people here to stop hiring illegals. if they don't make money, they won't come here. but how are you gonna get greedy nickel pinching until it bleeds capitalist to stop that?
DEA is easy, just legalize it, a whole bunch of money being wasted can go to helping people here who really need the help. or it'll just go to a war. eh.....
i don't think the demographic numbers on most people here being white is a the key. most whites, deep down inside, are afraid of people who are darker.
i'm not blowing smoke up your ass. i'm not a racist. i hang out with anybody. even my racist asshole neighbor. i know it takes time and patience to get through that kind of paranoia. you don't beat them over the head. just be yourself.
the last crew i worked with had two nazis in it. both were whitepower. one had the tattoes on him. he ASSUMED i was like him, because i look white, and look like somewhat your typical redneck, sort of, i was nice to him, everything, and then he found out i'm not a racist, and didn't hate him for being one. the look in his eyes changed. a lot. and he started following me around. asking advice about this and that.
i SEE white people who don't seem to be racist tighten up when a person of another skin color gets closer to them. it is apparent. but i love this one, "oh, i have blacks friends." as they are talking to black people. you have to trynot to laugh. it is that nervousness that is in the subconscious that paranoid people have IN THEM. why it is there? who put it there?
most racist people don't even know they are.
people are just paranoid.

probably the most easiest way to make most of it work, is for people here to stop hiring illegals. if they don't make money, they won't come here. but how are you gonna get greedy nickel pinching until it bleeds capitalist to stop that?
DEA is easy, just legalize it, a whole bunch of money being wasted can go to helping people here who really need the help. or it'll just go to a war. eh.....
i don't think the demographic numbers on most people here being white is a the key. most whites, deep down inside, are afraid of people who are darker.
i'm not blowing smoke up your ass. i'm not a racist. i hang out with anybody. even my racist asshole neighbor. i know it takes time and patience to get through that kind of paranoia. you don't beat them over the head. just be yourself.
the last crew i worked with had two nazis in it. both were whitepower. one had the tattoes on him. he ASSUMED i was like him, because i look white, and look like somewhat your typical redneck, sort of, i was nice to him, everything, and then he found out i'm not a racist, and didn't hate him for being one. the look in his eyes changed. a lot. and he started following me around. asking advice about this and that.
i SEE white people who don't seem to be racist tighten up when a person of another skin color gets closer to them. it is apparent. but i love this one, "oh, i have blacks friends." as they are talking to black people. you have to trynot to laugh. it is that nervousness that is in the subconscious that paranoid people have IN THEM. why it is there? who put it there?
most racist people don't even know they are.
people are just paranoid.
i can't remember the last job i had that didn't make me fill out an I-9 and produce documents that proved i was allowed to work in the U.S...and there's no mistaking me for an alien.

i have 2 cousins who are part white and part korean. 4 cousins who are part white and american indian. 3 cousins who are part semitic (father is a non-practicing jew).


And you believe this somehow makes you unique.

I have a cousin who is black, three cousins who are half black/half white/ an aunt and five cousins who are Jewish and my youngest son's father-in-law is Jewish. My youngest brother is dating a Turkish Muslem woman.

Such diverse family trees are quite common in America.

Ya think thats bad-Ive an English brother-in-law :D

Imagine how he feels, Paul, he's got an Irish brother-in-law.:lolhit:

Imagine how he feels, Paul, he's got an Irish brother-in-law.:lolhit:

Ya know, I never thought of that. Just a lucky Brit I guess.

Bwahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i SEE white people who don't seem to be racist tighten up when a person of another skin color gets closer to them. it is apparent. ... it is that nervousness that is in the subconscious that paranoid people have IN THEM. why it is there? who put it there?
most racist people don't even know they are.
people are just paranoid.
Yeah, they're paranoid because their chance of getting robbed, raped, or beaten just increased by a factor of 4. Don't believe me? Consult a criminal stats book. You wanna know why our paranoia's "there"??? They instilled it. :rolleyes:

Ya think thats bad-Ive an English brother-in-law :D
Trust me, Paul, it could be far worse.

I remember Jesse Jackson saying he tightened up when a group of male, black teens approached him. I guess that makes him a racist.

And I don't blame him, for he's done more harm to the black community than any 10 'gangstas' could ever dream of doing. He's an asshole of Andrew Dice Clay-like proportions, who pimps "po, stupid" black people for his own gain. All in all, if I were black, I'd kill his ass.

I remember Jesse Jackson saying he tightened up when a group of male, black teens approached him. I guess that makes him a racist.


no, a classist. he's spent too much time watching tv like most upper class people and see young black guys in a group dressed a certain way and he locks up.
white people have a tendency to lock up around any black people until they get to know them, but of course, most won't. that COULD be racist or classist.
tv drug of a nation.

And I don't blame him, for he's done more harm to the black community than any 10 'gangstas' could ever dream of doing. He's an asshole of Andrew Dice Clay-like proportions, who pimps "po, stupid" black people for his own gain. All in all, if I were black, I'd kill his ass.



don't let the color of your skin stop you prae.

There's plenty of blame to go around where illegal immigration is concerned. Anyone who thinks the Bush admin hasn't TRIED to address the issue is mistaken. Point the finger at your own elected representatives in the Senate and Congress for failing to pass the President's bill.

Immigration bill suffers major defeat in Senate (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19475868/)

Legislation falls 14 votes short, despite Bush's big push to rally support
The bill's supporters fell 14 votes short of the 60 needed to limit debate and clear the way for final passage of the legislation, which critics assailed as offering amnesty to illegal immigrants. The vote was 46 to 53 in favor of limiting the debate.

Senators in both parties said the issue is so volatile that Congress is highly unlikely to revisit it this fall or next year, when the presidential election will increasingly dominate American politics.

A similar effort collapsed in the Congress last year, and the House has not bothered with an immigration bill this year, awaiting Senate action.

The vote was a stinging setback for Bush, who advocated the bill as an imperfect but necessary fix of current immigration practices in which many illegal immigrants use forged documents or lapsed visas to live and work in the United States.

Finding a solution that will make EVERYBODY happy is the problem. If all else fails, current laws COULD be enforced, but don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen.

Personally, I think the border patrol who gives them a ride back should be commended for their portrayal of American humanitarianism. Even if Frogger does think we should line all the little ole ladies up against the wall and shoot 'em! The nerve of them to come into this country and beg for pennies to feed their families!!

There's plenty of blame to go around where illegal immigration is concerned. Anyone who thinks the Bush admin hasn't TRIED to address the issue is mistaken.

Sure. He "tried to" address the problem by granting amnesty to the millions of people who've entered our country illegally.

And here's the part of the article you didn't quote:

It was a victory for Republican conservatives who strongly criticized the bill's provisions that would have established pathways to lawful status for many of the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants. They were aided by talk radio and TV hosts who repeatedly attacked the bill and urged listeners to flood Congress with calls, faxes and e-mails.

It appears that you have your conservative friends to blame for the failure of Mr. Bush's brilliant immigration bill.