John Sidney McCain III is not a “war hero”.

John Sidney McCain III is a victim.

John McCain is a victim of torture and a broken man who has demonstrated repeatedly that he is willing to sell out his principles for political power.

That is the frame that Democrats and progressives need to aggressively push if they want to win in November. That is how they need to redefine McCain.

It is not even dishonest like the “Swift boat” attacks were; it is the absolute, documented truth. Right now John Sidney McCain III is running around the country touting his “war hero” image and getting a free pass by the media, who appear too busy buying him his favorite doughnuts to ask any tough questions.

I have written in other essays about framing and how it is the most vital skill Democrats and progressives need to learn in order to win in modern politics. One of the most key elements of framing in politics is to define your opponent and define yourself in the public’s mind. Democrats have a very bad habit of buying into Republican frames and thus allowing Republicans to define themselves, their opponents and the entire debate in the public’s mind. This is why we have the common media narrative of Republicans as ‘macho’ and Democrats as ‘weak’ even though the facts do not match the story. It is a testament to how good cons have gotten at framing and to the inherent bias by the conservative corporate media.

John Sidney McCain III is no more of a hero than every other soldier who actually did go fight in Vietnam.

John McCain is a victim of torture, a victim of bad policies that put him in Vietnam in the first place and ultimately a victim of his own hubris that comes from his elite status in society as the son of an Admiral.

There is a difference between feeling really sorry for someone and considering him or her a “hero”.

Sure there is some argument to be made that everyone who goes to war at all is a “hero” in some sense of the term. But no one can expect that to be enough to warrant the title “war hero” when running for national political office, yet John McCain is trying to do it based on his story that he got shot down in Vietnam, taken prisoner and held captive for five years.

What exactly is a “Hero” anyway?

The root of the word is the Greek word “Heros” which in Greek mythology was someone who was blessed by the gods.

The dictionary says a hero is:
a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.
a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal: Generally a hero has come to mean someone who as the second definition states, “performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal”.

Martin Luther King, Jr. for example, is rightly considered a hero for his non-violent approach to civil rights and his unwavering courage in sticking to his message in the face of threats that ultimately were fulfilled.

So what exactly is John McCain’s story?

John Sidney McCain III is the son of a Navy Admiral and Grandson of a Navy Admiral. He was born into moderate wealth but great power and ultimately married into great wealth with his mistress-turned-second wife, Cindy.

According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain):

“John McCain’s capture and imprisonment began on October 26 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_26), 1967 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967). He was flying his 23rd bombing mission over North Vietnam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Vietnam), when his A-4E Skyhawk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-4E_Skyhawk) was shot down by a missile over Hanoi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanoi). McCain fractured (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone_fracture) both arms and a leg, and then nearly drowned when he parachuted into Truc Bach Lake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truc_Bach_Lake) in Hanoi. After he regained consciousness, a mob attacked him, crushed his shoulder with a rifle butt, and bayoneted him; he was then transported to Hanoi's main Hoa Loa Prison (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoa_Loa_Prison), nicknamed the "Hanoi Hilton".”

Wikipedia also notes this about John McCain’s time in the Hanoi Hilton:

“In August of 1968, a program of severe torture began on McCain, at the same time as he was suffering from dysentery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysentery), and McCain made an anti-American propaganda "confession". He has always felt that his statement was dishonorable, but as he would later write, "I had learned what we all learned over there: Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine."”

What does being broken do to a person’s psyche? How long can the effects from a traumatic experience like that last? A lifetime? How much of John McCain’s infamously unstable temper comes from his experience as a victim of torture? Is that a person we really want with his finger of the nuclear button?

Ok, now I feel very bad for McCain and he has my deepest sympathies for what he experienced, but that does not qualify him for status of “hero”. Especially when McCain just recently voted against banning torture!

If we are supposed to consider John McCain a hero by virtue of him being held captive and tortured until he was broken then what are we supposed to think about all the people we are doing that to now? Are they also heroes? What does that say about us now that we are doing it to others?

Getting shot down, captured, and tortured and being broken both physically and mentally does not strike me as someone “blessed by the gods”. Neither does bombing runs on villages or creating propaganda videos for the enemy strike me as particularly “noble” and it certainly is not something I think should be regarded as a “model or ideal”.

Now lets look at the story of another Vietnam veteran who shares his first name, John Kerry. This is just one story of how he earned one of his medals in Vietnam. Also from Wikipedia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kerry)

“Eight days later, on February 28 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_28), 1969 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969), came the events for which Kerry was awarded his Silver Star. On this occasion, Kerry was in tactical command of his Swift boat and two others. Their mission included bringing a demolition team and dozens of South Vietnamese soldiers to destroy enemy sampans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampan), structures and bunkers. Running into an ambush, Kerry "directed the boats to turn to the beach and charge the Viet Cong positions" and he "expertly directed" his boat's fire and coordinated the deployment of the South Vietnamese troops, according to the original medal citation (signed by Admiral Zumwalt). Going a short distance farther, Kerry's boat was the target of an RPG round; as the boat beached at the site, a VC with a rocket launcher jumped and ran from a spider hole. While the boat's gunner opened fire, wounding the VC on the leg, and while the other boats approached and offered cover fire, Kerry jumped from the boat and chased the VC and killed him, capturing a loaded rocket launcher.”

So what I want to know is, if John Kerry’s war record was not above reproach, why do Democrats act as if John McCain’s is? The one thing that Karl Rove was right about was the tactic of taking your opponent’s strength and turning it into a liability. John McCain’s war record is his greatest strength and it is the reason the media is treating him with kid gloves. If Democrats want to win this they are going to have to take off the kid gloves and bring up the hypocrisy of someone who was broken by torture turning around and voting against banning the same behavior by Americans. They are going to have to bring up the fact McCain cooperated with the enemy and made anti-American propaganda for them.

John McCain’s low moral standards and questionable judgment have been repeatedly shown by his behavior. From the fact he was one of the infamous “Keating Five” to the fact he is breaking his own campaign finance laws right now by taking public financing and then going over the spending limits and by using his wife’s corporate jet for free, we have seen examples again and again of a man who is willing to sell out his principles for political convenience.

Hypocrisy is also a serious issue with John McCain. His record as a Senator shows a pattern of opposing Veteran and POW/MIA issues.

John Sidney McCain III opposed the Missing Personnel Act and the POW/MIA Rescue Act, which would have granted political asylum to any Southeast Asian national who brought a living American POW to freedom.

How can a former POW oppose that?

John McCain disagreed with the findings of the 1990 Senate Foreign Relations Committee, which concluded that our government had indeed abandoned some of our men when the war ended.


John McCain then went on to single handedly undermine the Senate Select Committee created to investigate the issue.


“During the course of their several month-long investigations, they heard unbelievable testimony from hundreds of people. No less than four former Secretaries of Defense testified that men were left behind. National Security analysts testified that they tracked the movements of our men long after the war ended. Radio transcripts of American POWs being moved in Laos were recorded in the early 1980s:

There were satellite photos of pilot distress signals taken as recently as 1992, complete with pilot name and authenticator code numbers. Former Soviet Commanders testified that they debriefed our men in the Soviet Union, and even Boris Yeltsin admitted American POWs had been transferred there.

No less than four committee investigators provided the Senators of their estimates ranging from a low of 150 to as many as 600 men who they believed were still alive and in captivity. This doesn't even include the testimony they heard behind closed doors that supposedly endangered our national security.

The conclusions of this committee was that "no credible evidence was provided to support the possibility that Americans were still alive and in captivity," This, despite documents from Soviet Archives that showed that the Vietnamese were holding more than 1,200 American POWs, and released less than 600, John McCain signed his name on this incredibly flawed report.”

John McCain opposes Senator Jim Webb’s New GI Bill, which would become the military’s greatest recruiting tool, because he says he thinks it would encourage soldiers to leave the military. God forbid they should leave the military to pursue an education! Who would occupy Iraq for 100 years if they do that?

John Sidney McCain III is not a hero by any standard of measure. He is an old, rich elitist with an infamously explosive temper and very questionable morals, which he has a record of selling out for political convenience. John McCain is a victim of torture, a victim of crimes against humanity, a victim of war crimes and a victim of bad policies and poor judgment that put him in that position in the first place. Probably worst of all, John Sidney McCain III is a victim of his own hubris.

That is a person I feel very sorry for, but I do not admire that person and I do not think that qualifies that person to be any kind of a leader.

That is not the kind of person we need leading this country at this time in history.

So now you are saying Mcain is not ahero but Kerry still is, I swaer you never cease to amaze me with your crap. Why dont you go to vietnamese prison for 5 years and do us all a favor.

So now you are saying Mcain is not ahero but Kerry still is, I swaer you never cease to amaze me with your crap. Why dont you go to vietnamese prison for 5 years and do us all a favor.

nah, let's at least get something for him in a trade.

I think we could probably manage a 1 course meal straight up.

Dhrama,

I understand you are a political hack... but where do you draw the line? You think that a ex-military P.O.W. was "not a hero"? Anyone that honorably serves in the Armed forces protecting the rights of political hacks like yourself to come on the internet and spew their idiotic bull-shit for their own self-aggrandation is a hero to me.

You on the other hand....

I believe he was in the prison for over five years.

Since his father was an admiral, the Vietmanese told him he could leave the prison. They thought it would be a propaganda coup and a way to demoralize the remaining prisoners.

This was less than a year into his captivity.

He refused to leave unless those who were captured before him could also leave. He remained there for about four more years.

**********

As far as the Kerry comparison goes, I think people like heroes who don't blow their own horn quite so much.
Remember Kerry arriving in Boston for the convention with via a small boat with Swift Boat friends?
Remember "John Kerry, reporting for duty" at the convention?

His medals and short stay were somewhat controversial and his behavior when he arrived home was abominable.
He really should have shut up about the whole thing.

Brooks, I heard that story first from the Vietnam Vets Against John McCain. They talk about it at length in one of their videos.
If it is true, and it was not done out of political opprotunism then it is one small island of courage in a sea of tragedy and cooperation with the enemy.

That also highlights the fact that he would not have survived Vietnam at all if not for his elitist status.

I understand you are a political hack...

I have got nothing on you in that department. :rolleyes:

I have got nothing on you in that department. :rolleyes:


Compare posts/thread starts/etc.

I dare say I pale in comparison to your hackery.

Oh... BTW maybe you and Frannie can start a few more threads bashing ANY Republicans.

Hackmeister.

Compare posts/thread starts/etc.


Yes, lets.

I contribute. You do not.

Making snarky comments in other people's threads like Statler and Waldorf from the Muppets is about the totality of your contributions on here.

Let me know when you can actually address anything I said in the original post in an adult manner, Hackmeister. :thumbs:

I think he has me on ignore, because I called him out like you did OP.. as has like 6 other people on here... he just doesn't want to look in the mirror.

Yes, lets.

I contribute. You do not.

Making snarky comments in other people's threads like Statler and Waldorf from the Muppets is about the totality of your contributions on here.

Let me know when you can actually address anything I said in the original post in an adult manner, Hackmeister. :thumbs:


Ohhh.... feeling your wheaties?

You contribute in your own mind... not to the other posters here. Discuss something relevent (not an attack post, as is your forte), and I'll be happy to discuss it with you. Also, try not to degrade all discussions in which you participate, into a semantics debate when someone hands you your ass.

That adult enough for you there sonny?

That adult enough for you there sonny?

No, it is pretty much exactly what I expect from you.

This piece is relevent to a lot of people.

If you don't want to discuss it nobody is forcing you.

Dhrama: "If it is true, and it was not done out of political opprotunism...."
So you think a young man in his twenties agreed to several more years of torture on the off chance he may run for political office someday?
This is the second dumbest thing I've heard on AllForums since my joining in 2003.

Dhrama: " ....then it is one small island of courage in a sea of tragedy and cooperation with the enemy."
Funny, back when the left's feelings were more anti-Bush than anti-McCain, there were threads on how horrible it was that the Bush campaign started a whisper campaign about McCain's cooperation with the enemy without any evidence.
I'm glad the left has gotten over their outrage.

Dhrama: That also highlights the fact that he would not have survived Vietnam at all if not for his elitist status.
Then there must have been many other elitists who survived along with him.
Like one of those country club prisons I suppose.
If a prison tortures "elitists" I can't even imagine how the average man would be treated.

So you think a young man in his twenties agreed to several more years of torture on the off chance he may run for political office someday?

Assuming the story is true for a moment, you said before it was very early on, possibly before he was being tortured.



Funny, back when the left's feelings were more anti-Bush than anti-McCain, there were threads on how horrible it was that the Bush campaign started a whisper campaign about McCain's cooperation with the enemy without any evidence.

Did you even read this article?
McCain himself admits he did cooperate with the enemy.




Then there must have been many other elitists who survived along with him.

How many sons of admirals did they have in captivity?

Assuming the story is true for a moment, you said before it was very early on, possibly before he was being tortured.
So are you saying he stayed because he predicted it would help him in future elections?

McCain himself admits he did cooperate with the enemy.
Well you got me on that one then. But still, I'm glad it is now a topic the left wants to discuss and not the source of outrage it was when Bush's people my have brought it up.

How many sons of admirals did they have in captivity?
According to your theory that he survived because of his "elitist" status, all the survivors must have been.

Well you got me on that one then. But still, I'm glad it is now a topic the left wants to discuss and not the source of outrage it was when Bush's people my have brought it up.

As I recall the outrage was over the fact that Bush's campaign claimed he had a black child out of wedlock when really he and his wife had adopted a child from india.


According to your theory that he survived because of his "elitist" status, all the survivors must have been.

It isn't a theory. He was gravely wounded and the other prisoners did not think he would survive until the Vietnamese found out he was the son of an admiral. The Vietnamese called him an "elite" captive and only gave him medical treatment because of who his father was. He only survived because of his status as an elistist.
Q.E.D.

1. As I recall the outrage was over the fact that Bush's campaign claimed he had a black child out of wedlock because he and his wife had adopted a child from india.

2. The Vietnamese called him an "elite" captive and only gave him medical treatment because of who his father was. He only survived because of his status as an elistist.
Q.E.D.
1. Among other things:
"In 2000, McCain operatives in SC accused Rove of spreading rumors against McCain, such as “suggestions that McCain had committed treason while a prisoner of war, and had fathered a child by a black prostitute,” according to the New Yorker."
http://www.bartcopnation.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=8&topic_id=522


2. A lot of ejected pilots were "gravely wounded" and survived.
Anyway, this is from another article:
"As a prisoner of war at the "Hanoi Hilton," he was denied necessary medical treatment and often beaten by the North Vietnamese. He still has a limp and disabilities in the arms. Once the Vietnamese discovered his father's identity they offered to release him, but he refused and was finally freed in January, 1973, with all the other American prisoners."
http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/John_McCain

"

A lot of ejected pilots were "gravely wounded" and survived.


Were they only given medical treatment because of who their fathers were?

Do you have a point Brooks?

Were they only given medical treatment because of who their fathers were?

Do you have a point Brooks?
Yeah this. I'm sorry bright red was the only color I had available:
""As a prisoner of war at the "Hanoi Hilton," he was denied necessary medical treatment and often beaten by the North Vietnamese."

This disagrees with your special-treatment claim.

You have to learn how to read the WHOLE thing Mr. Brooks.

" Only when the North Vietnamese discovered that his father was a top admiral did they give him medical care."

Brooks, I'm curious... What's the first dumbest thing you've seen on Allforums?

Dhrama, this is low, even for your already low standards. Are you calling Mcain a privledged traitor for accepting medical attention from his captors based on who his father was? That is what I read into it. If not, what exactly is your point to all of this? No bullshit or dancing, just tell us what the point of posting this is. Because for someone who denounced the swiftboaters so loud, I find it hard to believe you would have such a lack of dignity to turn around and do it yourself. Of course with your track record of unabashed, shameless partisanship I guess it really should be no suprise.

Good post there Dharma!

It isn't a theory. He was gravely wounded and the other prisoners did not think he would survive until the Vietnamese found out he was the son of an admiral. The Vietnamese called him an "elite" captive and only gave him medical treatment because of who his father was. He only survived because of his status as an elistist.
So what? Who cares?

Thanks afinertouch!
This is part of a presentation on framing I will be giving to Democratic and progressive groups here in Michigan, starting at the policy summit next month.

Why on earth does it matter if McCain received medical attention?

He was an elitist, and a future republican presidential candidate, clearly he deserved to die.

Why on earth does it matter if McCain received medical attention?
If we are to take Dharma at face value, McCain should have denied medical attention to show solidarity with his comrades. In other words, bullshit.

Of course, Dharma's case here is not that, but rather a counter to the popular conception of Obama as an elitist. While I think that calling Obama such a thing is equally unwarranted, the way Dharma goes about posting (fighting fire with fire) only compounds the problems I have with contemporary politics, and makes me sicker and sicker of this stupid campaign about non-issues. It'd be nice if we could focus on important things rather than flag pins, pastor endorsements, and Vietnamese medical attention.

Brooks, I'm curious... What's the first dumbest thing you've seen on Allforums?
Someone quoted an Israeli spokesman and Echo2 said
"I'm beginning to have a better understanding of Hitler".

If we are to take Dharma at face value, McCain should have denied medical attention to show solidarity with his comrades.

Bullshit. That is not what I said.

If you have to exaggerate what I say... You know the rest. :rolleyes:



Of course, Dharma's case here is not that, but rather a counter to the popular conception of Obama as an elitist. While I think that calling Obama such a thing is equally unwarranted,

That was not my point but now that you brought it up, it is pretty ironic that John Sidney McCain III, the son of an Admiral who owns eight houses called Barak Obama, who was raised by a single mother in small town Kansas an "elitist".

Notice how dharma completely dodged Trav's question....

*chirp.. chirp***

That was not my point but now that you brought it up, it is pretty ironic that John Sidney McCain III, the son of an Admiral who owns eight houses called Barak Obama, who was raised by a single mother in small town Kansas an "elitist".

Yes, I am sure jap dive bombers and depth charges delibratly avoided Admiral Mcains submarine because he was "elite". You sir are a jackass.

Yes, I am sure jap dive bombers and depth charges delibratly avoided Admiral Mcains submarine because he was "elite".

That has nothing to do with anything we are talking about.

the old "dharma shuffle".. you had him pinned, Trav, and now it's to semantics, and backing out like a bride with cold feet... priceless.

That has nothing to do with anything we are talking about.

Well you managed to forgot to mention Mcains father served on a submarine in both theatres in WW2, but somehow managed to recall the hard times Obamas mom went through, as if how hard your parents life has anything to do with whether you are an elitist or not.

Thanks afinertouch!
This is part of a presentation on framing I will be giving to Democratic and progressive groups here in Michigan, starting at the policy summit next month.
And you call me a hack?

I'm actually a registered Democrat where I live, and do not/will not participate in either parties political bullshit. I will state my views on allforums and to those whom I choose to discuss issues with face to face.

I'm not a McCain fan, of course you think that anyone that dares to disagree with any of your partisan diatribes and propaganda... must be a Republican hack. I just call bullshit on your inane posts that try to turn anything into a conservative bash-fest (or to draw attention away from your prefered candidate's shortcomings).

Post REAL debate issues and I'll gladly discuss them... but until you quit the disingeuous crapola... I'll only be a pain in your posting ass.

And you call me a hack?


Only because you behave as one.

Don't blame me because you are too lazy to get involved.

Only because you behave as one.

Don't blame me because you are too lazy to get involved.
Examples?

...or just trying to get the last word again?

LOL! Lazy? I have worked 50+ hrs/week as an Engineer/General Manager for 25+ years, helped raise 2 children (coached ball, scouts, dance, etc), maintain a house and 6 acres, and still have time to piss you off. :)

Hack.

Examples?
Ok...

I'm actually a registered Democrat where I live :rolleyes:, and do not/will not participate in either parties political bullshit
Hackmeister.

:thumbs:

This is part of a presentation on framing I will be giving to Democratic and progressive groups here in Michigan, starting at the policy summit next month.
Does anyone else here ever wonder how many times this kid was pummeled in high school? I mean, seriously - what a moron.

Does anyone else here ever wonder how many times this kid was pummeled in high school? I mean, seriously - what a moron.
often.

You guys really need to lighten up and get out of your parents basements more often. :)

You guys really need to lighten up and get out of your parents basements more often. :)
Yeah... maybe we could all go spend five years as POWs and see how WE handle the situation.

Yeah... maybe we could all go spend five years as POWs and see how WE handle the situation.

Agreed.

Yeah... maybe we could all go spend five years as POWs and see how WE handle the situation.

and if you break and cooperate with the enemy, would you expect to be considered a hero?

and if you break and cooperate with the enemy, would you expect to be considered a hero?

you are such a dickhead. I dont even know where to begin with your stupid ass. You make me want to puke you piece of shit. Ban this worthless som of a bitch now, he is worthless.

you defend John Kerry and his 4 month gilligans island tour but call mcain a coward for breaking under 5 years of torture in Hanoi? you should just go get bent you shithead. you are now in the same league as Mr shaman and dop and all the other washed up left wing has beens of Allforums past.

and if you break and cooperate with the enemy, would you expect to be considered a hero?Wow. Refresh my memory again dharma. How did you obtain your vast knowledge of military matters again? Which branch were you in?

and if you break and cooperate with the enemy, would you expect to be considered a hero?

ok..you are taking it too far. Just being disrespectful now.

you defend John Kerry and his 4 month gilligans island tour but call mcain a coward for breaking under 5 years of torture in Hanoi?

No, you lying hack.

I never called John McCain a "coward".

You are yet again putting words in my mouth.

By the way John McCain spent a total of 20 hours in combat before he got shot down. Talk about a "gilligan's island tour".

ok..you are taking it too far. Just being disrespectful now.

No, actually I am not. It is a serious question.

Why should someone who cooperated with the enemy and made Anti-American propaganda expect to be considered a hero?

Seriously.

No, actually I am not. It is a serious question.

Why should someone who cooperated with the enemy and made Anti-American propaganda expect to be considered a hero?

Seriously.

He was there for 5 years. Nobody knows how a person would react under those kinds of circumstances.

He was there for 5 years. Nobody knows how a person would react under those kinds of circumstances.
He has my deepest sympathy for what he went through, but that does not make him a hero.

If being held for 5 years and tortured makes one a hero, what does that make all the people we are doing it to now?

What does that make us?

By the way John McCain spent a total of 20 hours in combat before he got shot down. Talk about a "gilligan's island tour".

Before 5 years in a POW camp?

Blow it out your ass, Dhrama.

Do us all a favor and take your bullshit elsewhere. I heard Code Pink is looking for a few good she-men.

Wow...

No, actually I am not. It is a serious question.

Why should someone who cooperated with the enemy and made Anti-American propaganda expect to be considered a hero?

Seriously.

Because he was a P.O.W. and you do what they tell you if you have any interest in staying alive.

I'd love to see badass dhrama stickin' it to the man by not cooperating if he was captured and had to worry about living.

Because he was a P.O.W. and you do what they tell you if you have any interest in staying alive.


That makes him a victim, not a hero.

That makes him a victim, not a hero.

According to you. Are soldiers who get killed in action heroes, or are they merely victims?

and if you break and cooperate with the enemy, would you expect to be considered a hero?
Again, Bush's people say this in 2000 - bad.

I say this now - good.

Because he was a P.O.W. and you do what they tell you if you have any interest in staying alive.

I'd love to see badass dhrama stickin' it to the man by not cooperating if he was captured and had to worry about living.

:lolhit:

Dhrama cooperates with the enemy sitting right there in his cozy little office! But only if you consider socialism an enemy of democracy. I have no doubt he'd sell out this country in a heartbeat if promised an extra grain of rice for himself.

Bless his little warped heart.

:thumbs:
SMW

No, actually I am not. It is a serious question.

Why should someone who cooperated with the enemy and made Anti-American propaganda expect to be considered a hero?

Seriously.

It is hard to believe that someone who is against torture because it can result in false statements even has to ask that question. Seriously, just stop already, you are crossing over into the hated side of things. even the other left wingers are calling you out.

It is hard to believe that someone who is against torture because it can result in false statements even has to ask that question. Seriously, just stop already, you are crossing over into the hated side of things. even the other left wingers are calling you out.
Dharma's massive fail in this thread is causing him to lose whatever credibility he may have had. If we just stay quiet a teensy bit longer, he may completely self-destruct and we'll have quite the fireworks show on our hands.

It is just incredible that he is serious about whether Mcain should be considered a hero or not for breaking under 5 years of imprisonment in a North Vietnamese prison camp. The sad thing is he probably sees nothing wrong with Kerry's anti war activitys or those of Jane Fonda, but Mcain, well he just went over the line! How dare he make anti american statements from North Vietnam! Such partisan jack-assery I have never witnessed, and after 6 years on this forum that is saying something.

Dharma's massive fail in this thread is causing him to lose whatever credibility he may have had. If we just stay quiet a teensy bit longer, he may completely self-destruct and we'll have quite the fireworks show on our hands.


http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t33/texrose752/idiot-1.gif

I've always contended that Dhrama should be banned. He's utterly useless here (and that's NOT taking his "politics" into consideration).

Again, Bush's people say this in 2000 - bad.


Says who?

It is just incredible that he is serious about whether Mcain should be considered a hero or not for breaking under 5 years of imprisonment in a North Vietnamese prison camp.

It is really incredible that so many people are unwilling to even question the corporate media's standard frame for McCain as a "hero", especially after we saw how much respect a Democratic war hero recieved and still recieves.



The sad thing is he probably sees nothing wrong with Kerry's anti war activitys

Thanks for illustrating my point for me you flaming hypocrite.
You are correct, I see nothing wrong with criticizing the war he fought so bravely in. He, more than most, earned the right by going there and fighting in it.


How dare he make anti american statements from North Vietnam!

Good question. If he were a Democrat you would have been asking this for months already.


Such partisan jack-assery I have never witnessed, and after 6 years on this forum that is saying something.

Bullshit. As your comments above prove, you embody partisan jack-assery.
I have never called McCain a "traitor" a "coward" or any of the other "dhramatic" lies I have seen thrown around on here by people over-reacting to something they clearly did not read.

It is really incredible that so many people are unwilling to even question the corporate media's standard frame....
This is so tired.
You're on a corporate computer, wearing corporate clothes, you drive a corporate car, eat corporate food, occasionally use corporate soap and talk on a corporate phone.

Yeah, the media wants to make a profit. The cat's out of the bag.

Lets not change the subject, ok Mr. Brooks?

dharma, how does one become a hero, in your opinion?

dharma, how does one become a hero, in your opinion?

Jesus Christ!

Did anyone even read the fucking article??

(pardon my language)

It is really incredible that so many people are unwilling to even question the corporate media's standard frame for McCain as a "hero", especially after we saw how much respect a Democratic war hero received and still receives.
It has never crossed your mind that maybe you are wrong about Kerry and Mcain?




Thanks for illustrating my point for me you flaming hypocrite.
You are correct, I see nothing wrong with criticizing the war he fought so bravely in. He, more than most, earned the right by going there and fighting in it.
This is where the problem lies, with the statement "more then most". He did not do more then the millions of other guys who were there. In fact, it is the opposite, he did less. He left early for wounds that didn't amount to a band aid. Other guys got shot to shit and went back their units, to their comrades. Kerry saw a loop hole and took it, to hell with his men, good luck to them! And in the grand scheme of things that would not even matter. The fact he grandstanded and made a big deal out of his less then stellar "tour" is what irks myself and so many other veterans. he is some big hero who we should all bow down to when he pretty much ran out of there the first time he saw a way out. Then came back here and started talking shit! I can see why you like him, he is a bum like you.




Good question. If he were a Democrat you would have been asking this for months already.
Wrong again. As I said earlier, i would have had no problem with kerrys service if he didn't pull all of those stupid stunts like taking the boat across Boston Harbor and saluting and saying "Reporting for duty", what a crock of shit. The guy didn't even finish his tour, when he was perfectly capable of doing so.



Bullshit. As your comments above prove, you embody partisan jack-assery.
I have never called McCain a "traitor" a "coward" or any of the other "dhramatic" lies I have seen thrown around on here by people over-reacting to something they clearly did not read.
SO I guess by implying he was weak and turned on his country you were not calling him a coward and traitor Whatever did you mean then? And of course you had to kick him in the guts when he was down and throw in elitist! Not only does he break under pressure and turn on his own country, he is also an elitist! Of course you didn't say any of that :rolleyes:

I'm asking for your opinion, not one from an article.

dharma, how does one become a hero, in your opinion?

By fighting in 1917 against the Tsar, some would say................

As I said earlier, i would have had no problem with kerrys service if he didn't pull all of those stupid stunts like taking the boat across Boston Harbor and saluting and saying "Reporting for duty", what a crock of shit. The guy didn't even finish his tour, when he was perfectly capable of doing so.

I'm curious to hear your take on Mr. Bush's jet flight from the coast of San Diego to a carrier 30 miles offshore, wearing a flight suit with a wad of socks in his panties and saluting our soldiers as if he'd actually fought anywhere OR finished his tour of duty (which he was perfectly capable of doing, but uh ... didn't).

http://www.defendamerica.mil/images/photos/may2003/index/ii050103j.jpg

I'm curious to hear your take on Mr. Bush's jet flight from the coast of San Diego to a carrier 30 miles offshore, wearing a flight suit with a wad of socks in his panties and saluting our soldiers as if he'd actually fought anywhere OR finished his tour of duty (which he was perfectly capable of doing, but uh ... didn't).

http://www.defendamerica.mil/images/photos/may2003/index/ii050103j.jpg

And here comes CHANGE THE SUBJECT FRANNIE!

(you sure you and Dhrama aren't the same person?)

I'm asking for your opinion, not one from an article.

I wrote the article.

I'm curious to hear your take on Mr. Bush's jet flight from the coast of San Diego to a carrier 30 miles offshore, wearing a flight suit with a wad of socks in his panties and saluting our soldiers as if he'd actually fought anywhere OR finished his tour of duty (which he was perfectly capable of doing, but uh ... didn't).

http://www.defendamerica.mil/images/photos/may2003/index/ii050103j.jpg

What do I think about it? Nothing. He is already the president, and we are talking about men who would become president and the use of their prior service as some sort of show of preparedness for CIC. If I recall Bush never used his NG time as a platform for his readiness to be the CIC.
If President Obama wants to go out and fly around in a flight suit more power to him. If I was the leader of the finest military the world has ever known you can bet I would be taking flights in jets and tanks as often as I could.

I wrote the article.

Is the title on your blog, "Rantings of a Desperate Democrat?"

:lolhit:

I wrote the article.

Oh god, no wonder. Good luck with having anyone but the most radical left wing of the democrat party buying into that idea. It is political suicide. The only reason it worked against John Kerry is because it was true. Try that against Mcain and say bye bye White House.

dharmabum,
If you want to take the "hero" label away from John McCain then go right ahead. Just know that you will effectively be doing the same to a lot of other people who went through similar experiences, many of whom weren't lucky enough to survive.

Oh god, no wonder. Good luck with having anyone but the most radical left wing of the democrat party buying into that idea. It is political suicide. The only reason it worked against John Kerry is because it was true. Try that against Mcain and say bye bye White House.


Everything I have said about McCain is true.

Your "dhramatic" overreaction does not change anything.

And for your information, this has been VERY well recieved within the party so far.

dharmabum,
If you want to take the "hero" label away from John McCain then go right ahead. Just know that you will effectively be doing the same to a lot of other people who went through similar experiences, many of whom weren't lucky enough to survive.

The same was said about John Kerry and it wasn't true then either.

And for your information, this has been VERY well recieved within the party so far.

Yeah? Do tell... you have one comment posted on your blog:

comments:
Green Eagle said...
Here is John McCain's war record. This son and grandson of admirals was admitted to Annapolis, where he graduated in the bottom 10 of a class of over 700. He was then trained as an aviator, flying A4's, which were ground attack planes. McCain flew 23 missions, totaling 20 hours of flight time, before being shot down. That's this great hero's war record: a grand total of 20 hours in combat. 20 HOURS! John Kerry spent that long in combat on many days.

And as for McCain's time in prison, if spending 5 years in a cage qualifies someone to be president, please let me know, as I am thinking of running my parrot.

Maybe it woulda helped if you didn't have a misspelled word in the TITLE.

For anyone who's interested... Dhrama's Blog (http://thesarcasticcynic.blogspot.com/2008/04/lifestyles-of-rich-and-fameous-mccains.html)

By the way John McCain spent a total of 20 hours in combat before he got shot down. Talk about a "gilligan's island tour".This comment alone shows how supremely ignorant dhramabum is. Five minutes of combat feels like a lifetime. The article i read says he went out on 23 missions.

Have you ever even had a fistfight in your life dhrama? Measurements of time is all about perspective, in case you dont know.

For anyone who's interested... Dhrama's Blog (http://thesarcasticcynic.blogspot.com/2008/04/lifestyles-of-rich-and-fameous-mccains.html)

Outside of the Politburo, I can't think of ANYONE interested.

Five minutes of combat feels like a lifetime.
So where was the outrage when trav called John Kerry's time in combat a "gilligan's island tour" (3 hours)?

Outside of the Politburo, I can't think of ANYONE interested.
FYI, her link is wrong.

This is my blog. (http://thesarcasticcynic.blogspot.com/)

I don't see how it is relevent though, since I have not posted this article to my blog.

(http://thesarcasticcynic.blogspot.com/)

FYI, her link is wrong.

This is my blog. (http://thesarcasticcynic.blogspot.com/)

I don't see how it is relevent though, since I have not posted this article to my blog.

(http://thesarcasticcynic.blogspot.com/)

LOL... my link goes to the same place as yours, Dickhead.

:bike:

The same was said about John Kerry and it wasn't true then either.
So the fact that they did it to John Kerry means it's ok to do it to McCain. Alrighty then.

I think if you're going to use something as a political tool, then it's fair game for people to criticize you on it. Not that I'm condoning a smear campaign or anything like that. However, McCain's record deserves scrutiny. The same would be true of a candidate that uses the fact that he was a CEO as credentials. The public has a right to know what went on inside that company.

Unfortunately, people get a too carried away, which makes the attackers vicious and the defenders paranoid. Honest criticism is hard to come by.

Just my 3 cents.

So the fact that they did it to John Kerry means it's ok to do it to McCain.
Does it?

My point was that the consequences you mentioned never materialized when they were lying about Kerry, so they are not going to happen just because someone challenges the media's frame for McCain.

I think if you're going to use something as a political tool, then it's fair game for people to criticize you on it. Not that I'm condoning a smear campaign or anything like that. However, McCain's record deserves scrutiny. The same would be true of a candidate that uses the fact that he was a CEO as credentials. The public has a right to know what went on inside that company.

Unfortunately, people get a too carried away, which makes the attackers vicious and the defenders paranoid. Honest criticism is hard to come by.

Just my 3 cents.
Honest criticism is boring. Our media's primary focus is profits, so they only give us infotainment, scandal, sensational propaganda and outrageous personalities.

Honest criticism would necessitate some kind of requirement that they provide programming in the publics' service.

So where was the outrage when trav called John Kerry's time in combat a "gilligan's island tour" (3 hours)?You really want to compare 5 years of torture in a Vietnamese POW camp to Kerry using his scratches as a get out of jail free card? Come on man, think about it.

FYI, her link is wrong.

This is my blog. (http://thesarcasticcynic.blogspot.com/)

I don't see how it is relevent though, since I have not posted this article to my blog.

(http://thesarcasticcynic.blogspot.com/)

Some would say that nothing you post is relevant, but far be it from ME to use such harsh, harsh words, and ...well......whatever.

I ain't reading your blog. If I want propaganda, I'll read The Communist Manifesto.

You really want to compare 5 years of torture in a Vietnamese POW camp to Kerry using his scratches as a get out of jail free card? Come on man, think about it.

It is a bigger stretch for you to call 3 shrapnel wounds "scratches" than for me to call John McCain a victim.

I ain't reading your blog

Nobody asked you to.

I was just setting the facts straight.

Nobody asked you to.

I was just setting the facts straight.

Then why did you post the link?
Unless you want all of ours' computers to explode?

I never took you for the violent type, dharma.......

Then why did you post the link?

I don't normally repeat myself, but I will make an exception for you because I like you.


I was just setting the facts straight.

It is a bigger stretch for you to call 3 shrapnel wounds "scratches" than for me to call John McCain a victim.Well i agree with that drama, but that isnt what i was saying.


Of course John McCain was a victim of torture. Of course John McCain was a victim of being imprisoned and abused for years. The fact that he refused to leave his fellow prisoners when offered the chance is what makes his actions different from the norm, or what others would call "heroic". Are you intentionally being obtuse?