Are you intentionally being obtuse?
Lemme assure you, he has absolutely no choice in the matter.

Does it?
No, it doesn't. I was being sarcastic.

My point was that the consequences you mentioned never materialized when they were lying about Kerry, so they are not going to happen just because someone challenges the media's frame for McCain
Who's talking about consequences? My point is that by saying John McCain is not a hero, you're implying that a lot of other people regarded as heroes also are not.

Who's talking about consequences? My point is that by saying John McCain is not a hero, you're implying that a lot of other people regarded as heroes also are not.
Just curious, Jester, but do you consider John Kerry a "hero"?

Just curious, Jester, but do you consider John Kerry a "hero"?
I know this will sound like a cop out, but it's not my place to judge heroism -- that's up to all of you.

I know this will sound like a cop out, but it's not my place to judge heroism -- that's up to all of you.

very well said jester.:thumbs:

What do I think about it? Nothing.

Interesting.

You give Bush a pass for playing soldier, but condemn Kerry for actually being one.

That dog don't hunt, Trav, but regardless, I didn't post that pic just as a tool to question people's definition of "hero."

Today is the fifth anniversary of Mr. Bush's notorious 30-mile jet flight and his Mission Accomplished: Major combat operations in Iraq have ended speech.*

How easily and quickly they forget.







* 3,924 American soldiers have died since Mr. Bush landed on the deck of the USS Abraham Lincoln. Tens of thousands of Iraqis have been killed (the true number may never be known, since the Iraqi government does not record tallies of the dead), and millions have been displaced from their homes. Even more astounding, there are currently more U.S. troops in Iraq than there were when we first invaded, and there's no end in sight. How anyone can give Bush a pass for anything - after all he's done to destroy our military, our economy, our national honor, and our Constitution - is beyond me.

Interesting.

You give Bush a pass for playing soldier, but condemn Kerry for actually being one.



So your quick to judge GW's war time contribution..... whats your opinion on Bill clinton? do you consider John Kerry a hero? What about John McCain?....

Well i agree with that drama, but that isnt what i was saying.


Of course John McCain was a victim of torture. Of course John McCain was a victim of being imprisoned and abused for years. The fact that he refused to leave his fellow prisoners when offered the chance is what makes his actions different from the norm, or what others would call "heroic". Are you intentionally being obtuse?

I could ask you the same thing. If that were all that John McCain did while in captivity, you would have a point and he would be a hero. But the fact is, he cooperated with the enemy and made Anti-American propaganda.

He has my deepest sympathy for what happened to him in Vietnam, but that doesn't make him a hero.

My point is that by saying John McCain is not a hero, you're implying that a lot of other people regarded as heroes also are not.

Nonsense. John McCain's story is unique.

Nonsense. John McCain's story is unique.

But probably not as unique as your story, Dhrama. What would a supposedly grown man be doing posting to the internet at 3:30 am?

You really should get a life for yourself, shitstirrer. You lost any iota of credibility you had when you started this garbage thread.

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t33/texrose752/shitstirrer.gif

It is a bigger stretch for you to call 3 shrapnel wounds "scratches" than for me to call John McCain a victim.


Where is my purple heart? I got a shrapnel wound too. Oh ya, I wasnt allowed to writre up my own awards like Kerry was. I got a field dressing on it and was told to drive on. That is the beauty of being the only officer in a unit that operates independently. If you want to embelish wounds, actions, or anything else, who is going to stop you?

I could ask you the same thing. If that were all that John McCain did while in captivity, you would have a point and he would be a hero. But the fact is, he cooperated with the enemy and made Anti-American propaganda.

He has my deepest sympathy for what happened to him in Vietnam, but that doesn't make him a hero.

What does make a hero then? A (D) next to your name?
I guess in your world "dissenting" on some internet blog is real bravery. It is the highest form of patriotism you know. Mcain sold his country out, right?

He has my deepest sympathy for what happened to him in Vietnam, but that doesn't make him a hero.
Durr, yes, it does.

Don't bother napster, the terms "hero" associated with a Republican probably fry's a few circuits in his little pea brain. It does not compute, therefore it must be wrong.

So your quick to judge GW's war time contribution.....

GW's "wartime contribution?"

George Bush was (briefly) a member of the Texas Air National Guard. He never saw combat and never served active duty. Enlisting in the Guard was one way to beat the draft and avoid being sent to Vietnam, and Mr. Bush even admitted in a 1994 Houston Chronicle interview that "I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to Canada."

whats your opinion on Bill clinton?

I thought we were discussing "heroism" in the military... Bill Clinton never served in the military.

do you consider John Kerry a hero?

Yes.

What about John McCain?....

Yes.

So if Bush was a coward for joining the NG to get out of Vietnam what does that make Clinton?

Shit, say what you will about W, but the guy did learn how to fly a supersonic jet fighter for crying out loud.

So if Bush was a coward for joining the NG to get out of Vietnam what does that make Clinton?

Trav, we were talking about "heroism" in the military. Bill Clinton didn't serve in the miltary.

Now back to the question I asked earlier. You stated that:

i would have had no problem with kerrys service if he didn't pull all of those stupid stunts like taking the boat across Boston Harbor and saluting and saying "Reporting for duty", what a crock of shit. The guy didn't even finish his tour, when he was perfectly capable of doing so.

Coincidentally, you asked that question five years to the day that Mr. Bush pulled his own stupid stunt of taking jet fighter on a 30-mile trip out to sea so he could jump out in a flightsuit with an inflated codpiece on the deck of an aircraft carrier to salute those who have actually reported for duty. Bush never saw combat. He never saw active duty. The guy didn't even finish his tour, when he was perfectly capable of doing so.

So I asked you why you give Bush a pass for playing soldier, but condemn Kerry for actually being one.

Still wondering about that, Trav.

Shit, say what you will about W, but the guy did learn how to fly a supersonic jet fighter for crying out loud.

Oh, well I guess that makes him our most heroic president EVAR! :thumbs:

Trav, we were talking about "heroism" in the military. Bill Clinton didn't serve in the miltary.
Wel if a guy who served in the military can be a coward and not do his total duty what does that make guy who never went in at all? he must be a total loser.

Now back to the question I asked earlier. You stated that:



Coincidentally, you asked that question five years to the day that Mr. Bush pulled his own stupid stunt of taking jet fighter on a 30-mile trip out to sea so he could jump out in a flightsuit with an inflated codpiece on the deck of an aircraft carrier to salute those who have actually reported for duty. Bush never saw combat. He never saw active duty. The guy didn't even finish his tour, when he was perfectly capable of doing so.

So I asked you why you give Bush a pass for playing soldier, but condemn Kerry for actually being one.

Still wondering about that, Trav.
I am not giving him a pass. Yes, it was a stupid publicity stunt, he looked like an idiot, are you happy? Last I checked though he did not do that during an election stop though. This si about men who would be president, Kerry and Mcain, not stupid stuff presidents do while in office. and what is with you and your fascination with is inflalted codpiece?


Oh, well I guess that makes him our most heroic president EVAR!
Yes, that was my point, you are dead on :rolleyes: You sure seem to be quick to judge who served honorably and who did not, what exactly was your role in the military? Some kind of commisar?

you defend John Kerry and his 4 month gilligans island tour but call mcain a coward for breaking under 5 years of torture in Hanoi?

No.....I never called John McCain a "coward".

.....John McCain spent a total of 20 hours in combat before he got shot down. Talk about a "gilligan's island tour".

Bravo.

You make an excellent point in this thread.

No wonder all the little ConservaZombie whiners are gnashing their teeth and wailing so.

_____________________

If you think that spending five years in a cage actually qualifies one to be president, let me know, would you? I’m thinking of running my parrot.

I am sure if you added up all the hours spent by B-29 crews over Germany it wouldnt add up to much either. Will you call them cowards too? Counting hours in combat for pilots if about as ignorant an thing as you can do. They go by missions, not hours.
I am sure if you counted up Kerrys hours in actual combat they would ammount to about 2. Combat itself does not last long.

Where is my purple heart?

If you really were wounded you should have gotten one.

Nonsense. John McCain's story is unique.
He's not the only one who's gone on combat missions, shot down, taken POW, or tortured. Hell, that still happens today.

Like I said, if you want to claim that John McCain is not a hero then go ahead. I just hope you realize the implications of that claim.

What does make a hero then?

If you read the article you would not need to keep asking questions that were already explained in detail.

If you really were wounded you should have gotten one.
You don't always get the awards that you deserve. Trust me on that one.

Durr, yes, it does.

You think that everyone you feel sorry for has earned the title "hero"?

Thats a pretty wide net.

Will you call them cowards too?

I have not called anyone a coward.

You are tilting at windmills again Mr. Quixote

You don't always get the awards that you deserve. Trust me on that one.


and some people get more then they deserve. That is just how it is.

If you really were wounded you should have gotten one.

At the time I did not consider myself to be wounded, but seeing the descriptions of Kerry's "wounds" I would say now I was. I want my purple hert damnit. Maybe kerry can send me one of his.

You don't always get the awards that you deserve. Trust me on that one.
And if you do get them and you happen to decide to run for public office you can expect some yahoo is going to claim you don't deserve them.

Welcome to American politics.

You sure seem to be quick to judge who served honorably and who did not

Well there you go. Thanks for showing me the error of my ways. :thumbs:

Well what experience do you have in such matters?

You think that everyone you feel sorry for has earned the title "hero"?


no one's calling you a hero.

And if you do get them and you happen to decide to run for public office you can expect some yahoo is going to claim you don't deserve them.

Welcome to American politics.
that yahoo was the doctor that treated him. when you pull shrapnel from a 40MM, from the only man that had one, it doesn't take Gil Grissom to figure out that it was a self-inflicted wound.

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t33/texrose752/DEMOCRAT2.jpg

If you think that spending five years in a cage actually qualifies one to be president, let me know, would you? I’m thinking of running my parrot.
You're gonna nominate Dharma!?!?

You're gonna nominate Dharma!?!?


:lolhit: :worship:

no one's calling you a hero.

Nobody is calling you one either, but you and I are not the topic of conversation.

:thumbs:

that yahoo was the doctor that treated him.

No, he signed off on the medal. I was talking about Trav.

You're gonna nominate Dharma!?!?
that was priceless!:lolhit:

that was priceless!

It would have been funny if FT and I didn't disagree so often and so publicly.

that was priceless!:lolhit:Actually, it was kind of sleazy -- falsely attributing a quote to FT that was made by someone else.

Might even be against the rules.

I understand it was done for comedic effect but that's stooping a little low.

But the fact is, he cooperated with the enemy and made Anti-American propaganda.Every POW in Vietnam cooperated with the enemy. Every single one of them confessed to war crimes. They did so after enduring all the torture they could possibly bear, but still they did. Each of them could have avoided torture by confessing immediately, but they didn't. Ask yourself why someone would undergo torture when they don't have to, when they know in the end they will confess anyway.
He has my deepest sympathy for what happened to him in Vietnam, but that doesn't make him a hero.You're close to having a point here. My father doesn't consider himself a hero, nor does he consider most of his fellow prisoners to be heroes. But he does consider John McCain a hero. When McCain was offered the chance to leave the living hell to which he'd been condemned he said 'No'. We who were not there can not imagine how badly each of the prisoners would rather have been somewhere else. McCain chose to stay. That's heroism, end of story.

Politically, I think it's a bad idea to try and go after McCain in this way. For one thing you're climbing into bed with the likes of "B-1" Bob Dornan and his wacko friends. For another, as this thread has shown, you will alienate far more people than you will attract. McCain would like nothing better than for this campaign to become a referendum on his war record. That's an election he will win every single time.

Nobody is calling you one either, but you and I are not the topic of conversation.

:thumbs:
i don't want to be-there's no such thing as a living hero.

i don't want to be-there's no such thing as a living hero.

Yes, there is, Mike.
They introduced him before the Super Bowl a few years ago. (the one Presidents Bush and Clinton attended.)

This gentleman had won the Congressional Medal of Honor at Iwo Jima.
Both former presidents saluted this heroic gentleman.

i don't want to be-there's no such thing as a living hero.

I would say the subway guy (not Jarod) is a living hero.

Actually, it was kind of sleazy -- falsely attributing a quote to FT that was made by someone else.

Might even be against the rules.

I understand it was done for comedic effect but that's stooping a little low.
I don't think there's any rule against it, per se, but I agree that that was a bit low.

Politically, I think it's a bad idea to try and go after McCain in this way.
I disagree, if Karl Rove was right about anything it is that the tactic of taking your opponents greatest asset and turning it into his greatest liability works. We have seen it happen enough times to know it.

Of course the candidates are not going to be as overt as I am here, but the point is not the charges, it is the frame. It is defining McCain in a certain way by looking at him that way yourself, even if you don't say it out right. Someone else makes the most hard hitting, controversial charges that set the discussion. The politicians just talk about the person in that frame even if they don't come out and say it overtly themselves.

For example, I say:
Barack Obama only hurt himself when he opened a speech in Ohio with “John McCain is a great American hero.”

What he should have said was “John McCain has my greatest sympathy for what happened to him in Vietnam, but his policies are bad for America.”
The kinds of things which politicians can bring up that backup that image of McCain as damaged goods are the more current substantive issues with his record, such as:
John Sidney McCain III opposed the Missing Personnel Act and the POW/MIA Rescue Act, which would have granted political asylum to any Southeast Asian national who brought a living American POW to freedom.

How can a former POW oppose that?

John McCain disagreed with the findings of the 1990 Senate Foreign Relations Committee, which concluded that our government had indeed abandoned some of our men when the war ended.
John McCain then went on to single handedly undermine the Senate Select Committee created to investigate the issue.

Actually, it was kind of sleazy -- falsely attributing a quote to FT that was made by someone else.
I didn't make it up. He said it. Actually, I think he deleted the post, but whatever.

Trav, do you remember him saying that, or has my 'quote' function gone haywire here????

I didn't make it up. He said it. Actually, I think he deleted the post, but whatever.See post #83 (http://www.allforums.net/showpost.php?p=477980&postcount=83) in this thread.

The quote is from someone named Green Eagle posting on dharma's blog.

I didn't make it up. He said it. Actually, I think he deleted the post, but whatever.

Trav, do you remember him saying that, or has my 'quote' function gone haywire here????
http://www.allforums.net/showthread.php?p=478368&highlight=parrot#post478368 : He did say it, though as sedan points out, he was quoting Dharma's blog.

http://www.allforums.net/showthread.php?p=478368&highlight=parrot#post478368 : He did say it, though as sedan points out, he was quoting Dharma's blog.Ah, so that's what happened.

My apologies, Prae.

http://www.allforums.net/showthread.php?p=478368&highlight=parrot#post478368 : He did say it, though as sedan points out, he was quoting Dharma's blog.
Well, in light of that, I hope the confusion was understandable.

Actually, it was kind of sleazy -- falsely attributing a quote to FT that was made by someone else.

Might even be against the rules.

My fault. Sorry.

I should have attributed the quote, but could not remember where I read it.

It is such a fantastic comment that I thought it ought to be disseminated.

_________________________

""...if spending 5 years in a cage qualifies someone to be president, please let me know, as I am thinking of running my parrot.""_______Green Eagle

I disagree, if Karl Rove was right about anything it is that the tactic of taking your opponents greatest asset and turning it into his greatest liability works. We have seen it happen enough times to know it.
It can work, but it's very risky. Try doing that to Eisenhower in '52.

It can work, but it's very risky. Try doing that to Eisenhower in '52.

McCain is no Eisenhower.

Yes, there is, Mike.
They introduced him before the Super Bowl a few years ago. (the one Presidents Bush and Clinton attended.)

This gentleman had won the Congressional Medal of Honor at Iwo Jima.
Both former presidents saluted this heroic gentleman.
do you remember which one it was? half of the CMH winners on Iwo Jima received it posthumously.

McCain is no Eisenhower.
and you're no James Carville.

and you're no James Carville.

Never claimed to be. :thumbs:

Never claimed to be. :thumbs:
good, now that we have that cleared up-you realize from now to the end of time, i'll be calling you Jim Jr.?:thumbs:

good, now that we have that cleared up-you realize from now to the end of time, i'll be calling you Jim Jr.?

Ok, as long as you realize I will laugh in your face every time you say it because it makes you look like a complete moron after you just said I am no James Carville.

[When McCain was offered the chance to leave the living hell to which he'd been condemned he said 'No'. We who were not there can not imagine how badly each of the prisoners would rather have been somewhere else. McCain chose to stay.
You'd think that fact would have ended this debate on Page 1.

Ok, as long as you realize I will laugh in your face every time you say it because it makes you look like a complete moron after you just said I am no James Carville.
it's a joke you ninny!

it's a joke you ninny!

Sorry, I was still running on my pre-coffee sense of humor.

When McCain was offered the chance to leave the living hell to which he'd been condemned he said 'No'. We who were not there can not imagine how badly each of the prisoners would rather have been somewhere else. McCain chose to stay. That's heroism, end of story.


As opposed to Kerry, who left willingly once he recieved his 3rd purple heart in 3 months. Amazingly, the number needed to get out of there, if one so wanted to. Also amazing is how he took routine boo boo's and made them into purple hearts. I bet if there was not a 3 and out rule he would not have taken the time to do the paper work neccessary to get an award for such trivial "wounds". The second he reached some arbitrary milestone on bullshit wounds he left his men hanging.

Again, none of this would matter if Kerry did not try and tell us he was some sort of super soldier better then al the other guys who went. He would have just been another joe trying to stay alive. Instead he is a bullshitter.

because I like you.

Don't.

Just-----don't.

At least Kerry didn't make propaganda videos for the enemy.

At least Kerry didn't make propaganda videos for the enemy.
John Kerry wasn't tortured to do it-he did it all on his own:slap:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vYU-tW37Dc

John Kerry wasn't tortured to do it-he did it all on his own

Kerry killed the enemy.
McCain cooperated with them. :slap:

Kerry killed the enemy.
McCain cooperated with them. :slap:
the only person John Kerry is known to have even wounded is himself.:lolhit:

the only person John Kerry is known to have even wounded is himself.

Even you know that is a lie.

Kerry killed the enemy.
McCain cooperated with them. :slap:
Just get it over with, and ban him.

Kerry killed the enemy.
McCain cooperated with them. :slap:
Probably because Kerry wasn't held POW and tortured. I'm willing to bet that Kerry would have cooperated with the enemy just as much as McCain did if he was in a similar situation.

Even you know that is a lie.
you would be the expert on the subject...don't you have some packing to do? we wouldn't want you to miss Christmas in Cambodia.:bike:

Probably because Kerry wasn't held POW and tortured. I'm willing to bet that Kerry would have cooperated with the enemy just as much as McCain did if he was in a similar situation.

Maybe. We will never know.

The gist here is that someone who is tortured will do or say anything to make it stop, correct? That makes it pretty worthless for gathering information.

So why does John McCain refuse to ban torture by Americans?

So why does John McCain refuse to ban torture by Americans?
On the outside chance of you finding your way to GITMO.

you would be the expert on the subject...don't you have some packing to do? we wouldn't want you to miss Christmas in Cambodia.

As usual, when you are caught in a lie you revert to your ten year old personality. :slap:

As usual, when you are caught in a lie you revert to your ten year old personality. :slap:
what lie? who has Kerry wounded besides himself?

what lie? who has Kerry wounded besides himself?Well he did break a lot of hearts when he lost the election. :lolhit:

what lie? who has Kerry wounded besides himself?
See post #1. (this time try reading it :thumbs:)

See post #1. (this time try reading it :thumbs:)
why? did you edit it so it wouldn't look like a kamikaze attack?

dharmadumb is right, John Kerry did kill someone in Viet Nam. He shot and killed an unarmed kid. Thanks for the reminder, dharmadumb.

You know, dharmadumb, you really are a grade A douchebag. John McCain was tortured for years by the North Vietnamese. He was beaten by a mob, bayonetted, almost killed and subjected to terrible torture.

John Kerry put himself in for all of his Purple Hearts, none of which were for being wounded by the enemy.

You insult John McCain, a man who risked his safety to help other POWs and praise a self aggrandizing phony who got a Purple Heart for a scratch.

I have less respect for you than I do for any other poster in Allforums. I would vote that you be permabanned but for two things, I am against banning and, you should be kept around as an example of the shallowness and idiocy of the left.

why? did you edit it so it wouldn't look like a kamikaze attack?
I don't get it.

Anyway, the answer to your question is in post #1.

Here is part of it.

Kerry jumped from the boat and chased the VC and killed him, capturing a loaded rocket launcher.

Maybe. We will never know.

The gist here is that someone who is tortured will do or say anything to make it stop, correct? That makes it pretty worthless for gathering information.

So why does John McCain refuse to ban torture by Americans?
If that's your issue with McCain then address it. Denigrating his military service does nothing for that argument.

If that's your issue with McCain then address it. Denigrating his military service does nothing for that argument.

That is part of my argument, as I explained in post #1.

That is part of my argument, as I explained in post #1.
It might be ironic (a torture victim voting against banning torture), but it has nothing to do with whether or not McCain was a hero in Vietnam.

It might be ironic (a torture victim voting against banning torture), but it has nothing to do with whether or not McCain was a hero in Vietnam.
I respect and welcome your opinion, but I disagree with you on that.

You are welcome to your opinion. I disagree with you on that.
It has nothing to do with opinion. Logically, how does a recent vote in the Senate have any relation with his actions 40 years ago?

Jester, did you even read post #1?

Jester, did you even read post #1?
Yeah. Perhaps you'd like to answer my question now, because post #1 didn't.

The point of the post was never to link his actions from 40 years ago to a recent vote. The point of the post is framing and defining the candidate.

The point of the post was never to link his actions from 40 years ago to a recent vote.
Yet you tried to do just that, on this very page.

Yet you tried to do just that, on this very page.

And since he received such a warm response from his poison-pen article here, he also posted it on his blog (http://thesarcasticcynic.blogspot.com/).

I'm not complaining, though. It's people like him who will get John McCain elected. I think he should convince the DNC to use his words for their convention platform. Final nail in the coffin, if you please.

I don't get it.

Kamikaze attack-suicide attack with little hope of success or intended effect

Anyway, the answer to your question is in post #1.

Here is part of it.
that depends on which of the citations (http://johnkerry-08.com/war/citations.php) you believe.

Yet you tried to do just that, on this very page.
Negative.

Jester misinterpreted the point of my argument in his post #184. I refered him back to post #1 because the point of that post was framing the candidate, not simply "denigrating his military service".

This is what he said:
If that's your issue with McCain then address it. Denigrating his military service does nothing for that argument.
He was claiming I was using my point about McCain's hypocrisy to support the negatives about his military service and that is simply not the case as anyone can plainly see if they actually bothered to read post #1.

Kamikaze attack-suicide attack with little hope of success or intended effect

You also seem to be completely missing the point.

You also seem to be completely missing the point.
do you have a point besides the one on the top of your head?

http://static.crooksandliars.com/2008/05/carrot_for_president.jpg

And since he received such a warm response from his poison-pen article here, he also posted it on his blog (http://thesarcasticcynic.blogspot.com/).

I'm not complaining, though. It's people like him who will get John McCain elected. I think he should convince the DNC to use his words for their convention platform. Final nail in the coffin, if you please.
:lolhit:

I love watching the people who never read it try to act as if they have any clue what it is about.