Apparently, conservatives are at fault for arranging a bake-sale that illustrates how wrong affirmative action is. Basically, they sell cookies at different prices depending on what race you are (For example, Whites have to pay a dollar for a cookie and blacks have to pay 50 cents). When other students started literally attacking the protesting students, the students were faulted for putting up such an offensive protest. I swear I'm beginning to wonder if the world is upside-down without my realizing it.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=519&e=15&u=/ap/20031224/ap_on_re_us/campus_controversy_2

Sounds like a good idea to me, though 25¢ sounds a bit too extreme. More like 50¢ would be more accurate.

Seems to point out the fallacy of affirmative action.

I don't understand why anyone would have a problem with someone selling cookies to whites for a dollar and blacks and hispanics for 50 cents. This is especially ironic since it took place on a college campus, a place where blacks and hispanics are given scholarships strictly based on their race while whites don't get any.

That's the way the cookie... grumbles... I guess...


;)

Oh yeah, because whites don't get any privilage in this country.

Our own president went to Yale based on a legacy. Are people here advocating to removing that type of preference from these organizations?

Are you saying because some whites are privleged, all whites should be suppressed?

Originally posted by Leper
Are you saying because some whites are privleged, all whites should be suppressed? Of course he/she is.


Also, isnt that the prevailing attitude of most "people of color" these days?

No, not some, but most whites are privileged. Where are all whites suppressed?

Allowing a few scholarships to strengthen diversity in schools does not equal suppression.

How many blacks are in the Fortune 500? How many blacks are in the US Senate? They make up 13% of the population in this country, but make up a fraction of the university population.
What's wrong with trying to even things out a bit?

Originally posted by HaVoK
Of course he/she is.


Also, isnt that the prevailing attitude of most "people of color" these days?

Don't assume things you do not know.

Allowing a few scholarships to strengthen diversity in schools does not equal suppression.

College really isn't about diversity. It's about giving an education to the people who the university thinks can handle the workload the best. It's not fair if they give a scholarship to a minority that is not, by the university's standards, as capable instead of to a white person who is better suited for college.

Why do you assume that a white person is always better suited for college?

There are thousands and thousands of scholarships out there, and the majority of them are still going to white students.

What about legacies? Do you think it's ok to accept a student because one of their parents went there? G W Bush was a C student, yet he got into Yale because his father went. Affirmative action for rich people.

Originally posted by Pepper
What about legacies? Do you think it's ok to accept a student because one of their parents went there? G W Bush was a C student, yet he got into Yale because his father went. Affirmative action for rich people.

No - frankly it pisses me off. When I was applying to schools it really bothered me that some schools asked if I was related to an alumnus (obviously they didn't want to piss off potential donors). But that's done on the basis of money, not race.

Admitting someone just because they're a minority doesn't do anyone any favors. According to this week's Newsweek, only 1 in 5 Michigan students comes from a household with an income lower than $50,000. I also had a black professor that went to UMich and said he got a full ride scholarship because he was an intelligent black kid. But he was also firmly middle class and had two college educated parents. So clearly many schools go for numbers-based diversity over actual diversity of backgrounds. They don't care whether a black student comes from Compton or Beverly Hills - they only care that he's black and they can claim him on their stats.

Admitting a minority student on the basis of race to a school he's not qualified to attend doesn't do him any good anyway. If he's not prepared to compete at UCLA he'll eventually drop out or get kicked out and he'll find himself with no college degree and thousands of dollars in student loans. If he goes to a school that better matches his abilities he's more likely to graduate and get a good job and pass on his knowledge to his children, who will be better placed to attend UCLA themselves. You can't consistently jump from high school education to Berkeley grad in one generation. Note that in California since they put an end to race-based admissions minority admissions at UCLA and Berkeley are down.

minority admissions (http://aad.english.ucsb.edu/docs/may1.html)

But the overall number of minorities graduating from the UC system as a whole is up:

grad rate (http://sanjose.bizjournals.com/sanjose/stories/2003/11/10/daily37.html?jst=m_ln_hl)

In other words, minorities do better when well-meaning liberals aren't trying to help them.

Originally posted by Pepper
Why do you assume that a white person is always better suited for college?

There are thousands and thousands of scholarships out there, and the majority of them are still going to white students.
This is quite possibly the most ignorant stance on affirmative action I have ever seen. Sure the majority of scholarships go to Caucasians...it's not a product of racism in 99.9% of the cases. It's because that, yes, blacks were not treated fairly until VERY recently, namely somewhere in the 60's, when affirmative action was introduced. We've made great strides since then, nearly eradicating racism in this country. But, affirmative action has served it's purpose; it has no place in a non-racist society. Should a scholarship go to a less-qualified person who is, say, Hispanic over a more-qualified person who happens to be white? No. The more-qualified person deserves it, in ALL cases. Simply being a minority does not make one more qualified for a job, unless the job happens to be an actor portraying MLK or something.

If a particular white person is better suited for college than a particular black person, then that's simply the way it is. It also goes the other way, if a black person is better suited than a white person. SKIN COLOR DOES NOT MATTER, I thought we had already learned that lesson? Affirmative action is racism that just goes the opposite direction.
Originally posted by Pepper
What about legacies? Do you think it's ok to accept a student because one of their parents went there? G W Bush was a C student, yet he got into Yale because his father went.
No, that's not right either. The only thing that should be looked at is QUALIFICATIONS, not racial quotas or family ties.

I don't think the second article makes a clear cut case that eliminating Affirmative action is responsible for higher graduation rates.

It does not go into details on the gains, just that they happened. If minority enrollment continue to decline, how does the next generation fare?

Why do you assume that the minority is less qualified?

We all carry racist thoughts, and sometimes we act on them without really understanding it. Affirmative action is a way to counter these views and give people who have traditionally been on the low end of the stick a chance to make their lives better.

If our country invested more in education, instead say war, we could afford to send everyone who wants an education to college. But as university costs increase, lower income people (of all backgrounds) suffer. Minorities tend to make up a bulk of those low income people, through institutional racism, and thus suffer more as a people. And so 30 years after the civil rights movement, and 140 years after the civil war we have only ever had 2 black senators.

I'll end with a quote.

"Whenever this issue of compensatory or preferential treatment for the Negro is raised, some of our friends recoil in horror. The Negro should be granted equality, they agree, but he should ask for nothing more. On the surface, this appears reasonable, but it is not realistic. For it is obvious that if a man enters the starting line of a race three hundred years after another man, the first would have to perform some incredible feat in order to catch up."
Martin Luther King Jr.

Why do you assume that the minority is less qualified?
I assume that there are some minorities in the U.S. that are less qualified than some whites. Is that a false assumption? Are ALL minorities more qualified to go to college than ALL whites?

Originally posted by Pepper

"Whenever this issue of compensatory or preferential treatment for the Negro is raised, some of our friends recoil in horror. The Negro should be granted equality, they agree, but he should ask for nothing more. On the surface, this appears reasonable, but it is not realistic. For it is obvious that if a man enters the starting line of a race three hundred years after another man, the first would have to perform some incredible feat in order to catch up."
Martin Luther King Jr. And i answer that with one:
Two wrongs dont make a right.

No matter the cause.......you cannot correct discriminatory practices from the past with discriminatory practices in the present. The only people who would argue that this opinion is incorrect are the ones who benefit by the current state of affairs.

I don't think the second article makes a clear cut case that eliminating Affirmative action is responsible for higher graduation rates.

No, I'm making that argument. I'm just posting two articles that have facts that I'm referencing. What is your interpretation of the data?

It does not go into details on the gains, just that they happened. If minority enrollment continue to decline, how does the next generation fare?

But it's declining at only two schools - in the entire UC system minority enrollment is up! That's a good thing, right? Or, like many people, would you rather see the numbers stay the same at UCLA and Berkeley than see more minorities get a quality education? In other words, are you more interested in looking like you care about educating minorities, or actually educating minorities?

Why do you assume that the minority is less qualified?

The same reason you assume they need help. Why are you afraid to admit the truth? Why is it racist to tell the truth? The truth of the matter is that more minorities than whites suffer from poor educations. We can argue as to the cause of that, but that's the fact. And before you bring it up, I'm not saying that there aren't poorly educated white or that all minorities are poorly educated.

We all carry racist thoughts, and sometimes we act on them without really understanding it. Affirmative action is a way to counter these views and give people who have traditionally been on the low end of the stick a chance to make their lives better.

So you're saying that acting on racist thoughts subconsciously is bad, but acting on racist thoughts consciously is good?

Minorities tend to make up a bulk of those low income people, through institutional racism, and thus suffer more as a people. And so 30 years after the civil rights movement, and 140 years after the civil war we have only ever had 2 black senators.

I don't buy into the institutional racism argument. Many minorities seemed to do better for themselves when overt racism was the accepted norm. I think (many) minorities are in the position they're in now because instead of becoming self-reliant they're being told that they can't possibly succeed without the help of the Democratic party. Face it - if minorities ever broke the circle of poverty, the dems would lose a hugely loyal voting block.

I don't buy into the institutional racism argument. Many minorities seemed to do better for themselves when overt racism was the accepted norm. I think (many) minorities are in the position they're in now because instead of becoming self-reliant they're being told that they can't possibly succeed without the help of the Democratic party. Face it - if minorities ever broke the circle of poverty, the dems would lose a hugely loyal voting block.

In a word, handouts.

If our country invested more in education, instead say war, we could afford to send everyone who wants an education to college.

That is exactly the problem. We already overspend on public education, and most of the money goes to the bureaucrats in Washington. Do you realize that Washington D.C. schools are the worst in the country, yet the dollar amount per student spent in these schools is the highest in the country, about $14,000? Some of the highest ranked schools in the country are located in Utah and Wisconsin, where they spend only $4,000 per student.
Obviously the problem is mis-management of federal education funds, not the lack thereof.

Aside: Does anybody know why in college applications you have to provide parental information, like occupation and education, as if the status of your parents is somehow responsible for your getting into the school?

An ideal application would deal with the applicant only, with ONLY his/her personal merit be the qualifications for acceptance into a college or university. But, dammit, we don't live in an ideal world.

The true color of prejudice is Green.
If you do not have the "Green" you are second class citizen anywhere.:D

Originally posted by Pepper
No, not some, but most whites are privileged. Where are all whites suppressed?

Allowing a few scholarships to strengthen diversity in schools does not equal suppression.

How many blacks are in the Fortune 500? How many blacks are in the US Senate? They make up 13% of the population in this country, but make up a fraction of the university population.
What's wrong with trying to even things out a bit?

"What's wrong with trying to even things out a bit"? I ask you this: What's wrong with giving an engineering scholarship to the kid with the better math scores? Which makes more sense? I really don't see why race plays a role in this? Whites and Asians make better math scores, blacks play better basketball. This is a product of cultural differences, not racism. Deal with it and quit trying to blame the people who deserve to be where they are.

It seems to me the only way there can be a system that is really unbiased, is a screening process with nothing in it except the grades the students recieved, teachers comments, and other important info. Leave everything else out.

Exactly.

But that will never happen.

You don't buy institutional racism?

In New York City caucasions are the minority. They make up less then 27% of the city population. They make up 94% of the firefighters.

But there is no racism.

This stuff goes on and on. Anybody paying attention to what's going on with Ambercrombi and Fitch? How many white people have Cincinatti Police "accidently" killed in the past 5 years?

We do not spend enough on education. It is a lie to say anything else. Just this past year university rates went up 14%. How many people are still paying off college loans? Education should not end with high school.

High school performance is not a predictor to how someone is going to do in college. THere are a multitude of factors that decide if a student is qualified for college. Afterschool activities, volunteering, sports, work, what languages one speaks, to just name a few. Does this discriminate against students who went to schools with no afterschool activities?

If being black is such a great thing in this country with all these handouts, then I ask, how many of you would give up your whiteness and be a black person?

400 billion in hand outs to military and big business, but god forbid somone needs a few thousand for college.

I would like to see all people have access to education. It used to be a lot easier to get a college degree. Ask your parents how much they had to pay to go to college? I started in 1992, at a community college, I was spending $1200 a semester.

Quite honestly I think the Affermative action debate is just a smoke screen to keep us all quarrelling over the crumbs the truely wealthy drop for us.

We live in a democracy, a representation of the people. When Universities and government proportionatly reflect the makeup of this country I will be happy. SHit I'll be happy if even we even reach half that number.

No one lives in a bubble, we are all influenced by our surroundings. In South Bronx education spending per child is around 9,000 a year. (Education comes from taxes, if you are in a poor area, you have a very limited tax base) If you live in the rich suburbs out on Long Island, spending per child is as high as $21,000 a year.

WHo has the advantage?

You don't buy institutional racism?

In New York City caucasions are the minority. They make up less then 27% of the city population. They make up 94% of the firefighters.

But there is no racism.

Let me see if I follow your logical string here. Blacks are statistically disadvantaged in many areas. Therefore institutional racism exists. By that same logic the NFL and NBA are institutionally racist against whites. Of course no one would make that claim because it's ridiculous on its face. You make a claim that can't be proved, but insist that it's true because it can't be proven false.

This stuff goes on and on. Anybody paying attention to what's going on with Ambercrombi and Fitch? How many white people have Cincinatti Police "accidently" killed in the past 5 years?

A&F pick sales associates that represent the ideal in the minds of their customers. Their customers are mostly young white teens. Yeah, it's quite sad that they resort to such silly marketing techniques, but again, to assume racist intentions is silly. I don't see white people in FUBU ads. And since you're obviously completely ignorant on the Cincinnati police issue, I won't spend a lot of time on it. Let's just say that when a black man jumps into the car of an officer, grabs her weapon, and starts shooting her, it wasn't racism that led her wrestle her weapon back from him and kill him.

We do not spend enough on education. It is a lie to say anything else. Just this past year university rates went up 14%. How many people are still paying off college loans? Education should not end with high school.

The increasing tuition costs would seem to bely your accusation that we don't spend enough on education. And it absolutely, positively is not a lie. Locally the city of Cincinnati easily spends more per student than any of the suburbs and yet achieves far less. And recently voters in the city approved an approximately $1 billion bond issue to build/improve schools. That's institutional racism? The real problem is that a whopping 25% of the parents didn't even bother to make sure that their kids went to school the first day of classes.

If being black is such a great thing in this country with all these handouts, then I ask, how many of you would give up your whiteness and be a black person?

Who said it was great? But the problem lies with parents that don't encourage their kids to get an education, with leaders that tell their followers that they can't possibly succeed because racism will always beat them in the end, and with a Democratic party that tells that (and this is the real racism) that they can't possibly succeed in life without the help of white Democrats.

We live in a democracy, a representation of the people. When Universities and government proportionatly reflect the makeup of this country I will be happy. SHit I'll be happy if even we even reach half that number.

Good, as soon as universities hire more conservative staffs to offset the hugely liberal staffs they have now, we'll both be happy.

No one lives in a bubble, we are all influenced by our surroundings. In South Bronx education spending per child is around 9,000 a year. (Education comes from taxes, if you are in a poor area, you have a very limited tax base) If you live in the rich suburbs out on Long Island, spending per child is as high as $21,000 a year.

WHo has the advantage?

Spending in my suburb is around $5500 per student, and it's consistently rated the best in the state. Cincinnati spends over $7000 per student is consistently rated the worst. There's something more besides money going on there.

We live in a democracy, a representation of the people. When Universities and government proportionatly reflect the makeup of this country I will be happy. SHit I'll be happy if even we even reach half that number.

If everything were proportional, that 27% of white people in NYC would be bumped up to 75%, meaning that minorities would be taken from their homes and kicked out to be replaced by white people. This is exactly what affirmative action does, but to a lesser extent. It replaces the people who have earned a spot in the university with some one who hasn't.

As I mentioned earlier these racist thoughts aren't always intentional, but to say they don't exist at all is a misnomer.

Every black man that was shot was reaching for a gun? You think Cincinnati is the only place where cops are killing young black men?

When you ride the subway in New York you see all sorts of different backgrounds employed, when you see transit cops (parking tickets and the like), you see all sorts of different colors, when you see police and fire fighters you see white people. (Granted the police are much better then the nepotism that exists in the fire department).

It goes further then just not allowing people to work. It degrades the quality of life in the community. That fire fighters salary helps the local economy. It's a way for people to enter the middle class. When all of that money is going to white neighborhoods you further depress poor, usually minority, communities, reduce the tax base and makes it harder for schools to get money.

And I'm sorry but it costs a lot more to live in NYC then it does to live in Cincinnati.

Paying for education goes beyond high school. This U.S. government used to subsidize all levels of education ALOT more then it does now. Now any higher education is going to go to anyone who can afford it.

Even with Headstart, a very very successful government program, the funding for this is only reaching help half of the qualified children in this country.

[B]As I mentioned earlier these racist thoughts aren't always intentional, but to say they don't exist at all is a misnomer.

They absolutely exist - I just don't think it exists at anywhere near the level you seem to think it does. Everyone's got their own biases. I just don't think that they're restricted to one race, nor do I think those biases are restricted to just the topic of race.

Every black man that was shot was reaching for a gun? You think Cincinnati is the only place where cops are killing young black men?

I was going to ask you the same thing. Cincinnati didn't even make the list of the top 50 cities where people have died at the hands of the cops. But that's not the point. Black people die at the hands of cops all of the time all over the country. My point is that when you look at the big cities where the high crime neighborhoods are almost exclusively black, it's not too surprising to learn that most of the violent criminals the police have contact with are also black. That's not racism - that's just the way it is. The two issues that arise from that are why crime is so high in that area and how did some neighborhoods become so racially segregated (which is where I suspect past racism had so much of an impact).

Again, this isn't the point of the debate here, but if you're curious:

summary of Cincinnati police shootings (http://www.cincypost.com/2001/apr/10/fiftn041001.html)

When you ride the subway in New York you see all sorts of different backgrounds employed, when you see transit cops (parking tickets and the like), you see all sorts of different colors, when you see police and fire fighters you see white people. (Granted the police are much better then the nepotism that exists in the fire department).

I think where we differ is in how much evidence we want to see before blaming racism as the cause. It seems that you're happy with just raw numbers, whereas I see them as a starting place. the NYPD and NYFD don't have very good statitics, so that's when someone needs to start looking at the cause. Nepotism (which I dislike) certainly seems to be one of them. I can't say that I'd be surprised if racism was involved, I just want more proof.

It goes further then just not allowing people to work. It degrades the quality of life in the community. That fire fighters salary helps the local economy. It's a way for people to enter the middle class. When all of that money is going to white neighborhoods you further depress poor, usually minority, communities, reduce the tax base and makes it harder for schools to get money.

Absolutely no disagreement here. The benefits to society would be enormous.

And I'm sorry but it costs a lot more to live in NYC then it does to live in Cincinnati.

I wasn't attempting to compare the costs of educating students in Cincinnati and NY, rather I was comparing the costs of educating students in the suburbs of Cincinnati to the city of Cincinnati. My point was that money alone isn't necessarily the answer. For all of the additional money spent by Cincinnati, they're achieving nothing. A Taj Mahal type school with free laptops for every student isn't going to help the students that don't bother to show up.

Now any higher education is going to go to anyone who can afford it.

The cost of higher education is getting to be outrageous, and it seems to be fueled by nothing more than the easily availability of student loans and the egos of university presidents that want to slap up more buildings with their name on it. Meanwhile fewer and fewer professors can get tenure and more and more part-time and adjunct faculty are being used. Why this isnt' more of a scandal, I don't know.

I knew an interracial couple in NYC who would not go out driving at night because it was almost guarenteed they would get pulled over by a police officer. The fact is if you overwhelmingly target any group, teachers, corporate executives, caucasions, blacks you will eventually stumble onto some criminal behavior. In the larger scheme of things if every city is doing it, you look like you have a national trend.

I know as a white person, I have rarely in my life been pulled over (Speeding and headlights were usually the only reason). I can't say I would have the same luck if I were black. And then think about it, if you were a black man in that situation and you were aware of the shootings and beatings that go on around this country, how would you react? "If you're gonna die, die with your boots on"

Prevention is the only key to success. Redistribution of wealth would certainly help. We can't keep building more prisons and expect crime to drop. It would also help if the news didn't just report on the day to day horrors and offer no solutions on how average people can effect change for the better.

Parents are working more hours for less money. In the 1950's one income was enough for a family of 4. Now my partner and I with two reasonable amounts of income can't even afford a home, let alone a child. Thank god we don't have a child. I honestly don't know how so many people do it.

If being black is such a great thing in this country with all these handouts, then I ask, how many of you would give up your whiteness and be a black person?

I'm going to do it. From now on, when I am asked my race, I will check the Negro/African-American/Black box. I will also do the same for my kids. Enough of this stupid affirmative action crap. If we're going to make stupid rules that are strictly based on race, I'm going to screw the government and everyone else that tries to use it. Thank you.

Redistribution of wealth would certainly help.

What, more handouts? If I were a rich man (what I'm not), why should I give up my hard-earned money just to help some people that choose not to work? This is a big facet of communism...

We live in America, not the Soviet Union. People of all races and backgrounds can achieve anything they set their minds to, if only they are willing to work hard to achieve their goals. Look at Asian-Americans (a group I am proud to represent) in general. For many years, this minority was persecuted by the racist establishment. Why aren't they filling up the prisons today?

Now I'd admit that Asians did not go through hundreds of years of slavery at the hands of whites, but we live in the year 2003, just about to go into 2004. Stop bitching about the mistakes of the past!

The fact is if you overwhelmingly target any group, teachers, corporate executives, caucasions, blacks you will eventually stumble onto some criminal behavior. In the larger scheme of things if every city is doing it, you look like you have a national trend.

My reply to that is actually LionelHutz's:

My point is that when you look at the big cities where the high crime neighborhoods are almost exclusively black, it's not too surprising to learn that most of the violent criminals the police have contact with are also black. That's not racism - that's just the way it is. The two issues that arise from that are why crime is so high in that area and how did some neighborhoods become so racially segregated (which is where I suspect past racism had so much of an impact).

I am sure that if we could go back to square one, and Monday morning quarterback, all race relations would be different.
What I believe we need now is equal treatment of all races and gender based on qualifications.
We need less people,media included,stirring up the past to prove a point,gain money,votes,or support of a particular group.
Equality will be hard to obtain unless we stop being reminded of the differences.
Prejudice will always be present. Fat people,short people,physically impaired people or anyone seeming "different" have all felt its sting at one time or another.
All we can do is work toward equality of all people,its a hard battle and probably will take many more generations to overcome.
Believe me,being raised in South Georgia many years ago, I have seen many positive improvements. What we are told at home as children effects our basic views. In law inforcement I detested the person that told their child something along the lines of "see that policeman.If you don't mind me he will lock you up".
True equality can not be legislated. It begins by example. Until that time we must have laws to protect the rights of all Americans.
Slavery still exists in many parts of the world today. Education seems to weaken the hold of the masters.
Support global education when ever you can.

Slavery is 150+ years distant. Yes, it was a terrible thing. But, it's long gone. Some blacks just cannot let go of it. I resent being held "somehow" responsible-be that financially or personally culpable- for something that occured before my ancestors arrived on the shores of this great nation.

Originally posted by psamtik071
Why aren't they filling up the prisons today?

Now I'd admit that Asians did not go through hundreds of years of slavery at the hands of whites, but we live in the year 2003, just about to go into 2004.

You answered your own question. 150 years is not that long ago. It took 100 years just to get the concept of Civil rights enacted in this country, do you honestly think that 50 years later every thing is well and good? How many blacks were removed from the 2000 voter rolls in Florida compared to whites and asians? Stop living in a box.

There are people that are alive today that had parents in the civil war. People have been on this planet for over 10,000 years. It is not that long ago.

As for handouts, I really don't think you know what you are talking about. This government gives out billions in handouts to Ford, McDonalds, Disney, General Moters, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, etc etc etc. All these companies post profits, and give out huge dividens to CEO's. The rich are getting richer in this country, It's time we stop allowing Bill gates to make billions while other people starve. That money came from somebody, it didn't just grow out of thin air.

I've worked with some of these Executives, they are not worth what they are getting paid.

Can you survive on $5.35 an hour? I sure as heck can't and i am not a spendy person.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
Education seems to weaken the hold of the masters.
Support global education when ever you can.

Very good point. Thank you.

But don't forget the past can unlock many secrets we are dealing with today. Do not be so quick to forget it.

Originally posted by es347fan
Slavery is 150+ years distant. Yes, it was a terrible thing. But, it's long gone. Some blacks just cannot let go of it. I resent being held "somehow" responsible-be that financially or personally culpable- for something that occured before my ancestors arrived on the shores of this great nation.

You benefit with your privilage.

This nation would not be where it is today without the hard laborous work blacks did in this country. There are still corporations that exist today that can trace their profits back to the 1800's. If they profited, they should pay. We ask the same for German companies who used Jews as slave labor.

yes, the past is a guide for our future, remember that next time you want to appease a dicator just to buy a little "peace". Remember, just becasue there is no war doesnt mean that there is peace.

Originally posted by Travh20
yes, the past is a guide for our future,

I didn't say that.

Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it.

Originally posted by Pepper
You benefit with your privilage.

This nation would not be where it is today without the hard laborous work blacks did in this country. There are still corporations that exist today that can trace their profits back to the 1800's. If they profited, they should pay. We ask the same for German companies who used Jews as slave labor.

Change the word "blacks" to Irish or Chinese (to name but two) and you come up with the same statement. Virtually every ethnic group in this country has had their share of trials & tribulations.

True ethnic groups have suffered great indignity in this country, and continue to do so today, but no race was wholely subjecated and forced into slavery as blacks were.

There weren't boat loads of Irish chained against their will, in the bottom of ships and sold on the market.

Nobody is denying that what the blacks went through - first at the hands of their own countrymen who sold them to the slave traders - was a terrible ordeal. This is, however, the 21st Century, and you're talking about something that ended during the mid 19th Century. Time to turn the page on that series of events & move on.

Originally posted by Pepper
But don't forget the past can unlock many secrets we are dealing with today. Do not be so quick to forget it. History is propoganda at its best. Anyone can say anything about the past and it cannot be disproved.

Here's my basic problem with the entire argument of institutional racism. It keeps people from trying and it gives them an easy excuse when things don't work out. When some white kid goes to a job interview in a dirty shirt and baggy pants, everyone knows he didn't get the job because he doesn't know how to dress for an interview. If a black kid doesn't get the job, wearing the same clothes, it's "institutional racism." You're not helping people if you're not telling them the truth. And, if companies are the money-grubbing profit-obsessed entities I so frequently hear people on this board say that they are, they're going to back damn sure that they don't do anything that even seems racist.

Originally posted by Pepper
This nation would not be where it is today without the hard laborous work blacks did in this country. There are still corporations that exist today that can trace their profits back to the 1800's. If they profited, they should pay. We ask the same for German companies who used Jews as slave labor.

You're right - all of the people that get laid off, all of the people that lose retirement benefits, all of the people who's 401(k) and retirement funds lose value - they don't matter one bit. Punishing corporations is a nice idea, but except for the occasional closely held or family owned corporation, punishing corporations usually equals punishing employees that aren't responsible. (I'm not saying corporations shouldn't be punished, I'm just pointing out the reality of the situation.)

Originally posted by Pepper
This nation would not be where it is today without the hard laborous work blacks did in this country. There are still corporations that exist today that can trace their profits back to the 1800's. If they profited, they should pay. We ask the same for German companies who used Jews as slave labor. Pay who? You looking for a handout? Are you 150 years old and sufferered the oppression of slavery? Were your mother or father slaves? I cant wait for the day when white people wake up and realize that you cannot assuage guilt they are told they should have over slavery, with a monetary payment. This is just more bullshit that keeps our nation from healing from issues that should be over and done with. Im starting to think "people of color" dont really want to be equal at all. They want preferred status.

Hell, my ancestors had their land stolen from them and those that didnt like it were slaughtered. But i guess there are not enough of us out there crying that we deserve a handout for anyone to remember. I wonder why this country doesnt have an American Indian history month? After all, we are indigenous to America and no one studies our history. I think its fucking hillarious that white people have so much guilt over having owned slaves but you never hear anyone showing remorse over massacring american indians. Maybe they would if we would learn to cry louder.

Originally posted by Pepper
I didn't say that.

Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it.

yes, I know what you are saying. thats why people who wanted to keep giving saddam chanvces are the chamberlains and petans of today, willing to sacrafice all security for a little peace.

Originally posted by HaVoK
Pay who? You looking for a handout? Are you 150 years old and sufferered the oppression of slavery? Were your mother or father slaves? I cant wait for the day when white people wake up and realize that you cannot assuage guilt they are told they should have over slavery, with a monetary payment. This is just more bullshit that keeps our nation from healing from issues that should be over and done with. Im starting to think "people of color" dont really want to be equal at all. They want preferred status.

I don't think this was ever about handouts. It is about holding organizations who are still around today, and can trace their profits to the selling of human beings, accountable for their complicit behavior. These profits can be used in urban renewal projects, scholorships, and other sources that can help promote a more equal society.

Hell, my ancestors had their land stolen from them and those that didnt like it were slaughtered. But i guess there are not enough of us out there crying that we deserve a handout for anyone to remember. I wonder why this country doesnt have an American Indian history month? After all, we are indigenous to America and no one studies our history. I think its fucking hillarious that white people have so much guilt over having owned slaves but you never hear anyone showing remorse over massacring american indians. Maybe they would if we would learn to cry louder.

No guilt here, just wishing things were more equal. I'm tired of seeing white people in high places. I want some mix in there. It can be a cornacopia of color and background and we can all benefit from it.

Unfortuntely, there are too many white people who don't want to give up their privilage.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
Here's my basic problem with the entire argument of institutional racism. It keeps people from trying and it gives them an easy excuse when things don't work out. When some white kid goes to a job interview in a dirty shirt and baggy pants, everyone knows he didn't get the job because he doesn't know how to dress for an interview. If a black kid doesn't get the job, wearing the same clothes, it's "institutional racism." You're not helping people if you're not telling them the truth. And, if companies are the money-grubbing profit-obsessed entities I so frequently hear people on this board say that they are, they're going to back damn sure that they don't do anything that even seems racist.

I don't think your example grasps the nature of institutional racism. In NYC You don't see medical waste incinerators on Park Ave, you find it in the South Bronx. You don't see gas power plants on the west side, you find them strategically placed in some of the poorest neighborhoods in NYC. Try finding a supermarket in a poorer neighborhood. Many big name chains (offering cheaper prices) avoid poor area's because the profit isn't there. They make much more $$$ in big suburb or other affluent areas. Walk around Madison avenue, and then 125th st in Harlem, and tell me which has more military ads?

Racism is never that overt, it's usually very subtle. But it's impact can go far and deep.

Privelege? I look around my workplace and see minorities that get hired STRICTLY based on race, getting hired over whites that have better qualifications. Is that not good enough for you? Or what about the COMPLETELY racist Supreme Court decision that upholds scholarships STRICTLY based on race? I worry like hell about my 2 year old boy's future. Apparently, it is not going to be enough for him to make good grades. He will have to overcome a society that for some god-forsaken reason, believes that it has to give hand outs to black and hispanics (not asians for some odd reason!) before rewarding people fairly.

Again, if I think that I can get away with claiming that I am black, I will be doing so. White privelege? It is now white handicap. Congrats to black and hispanics for getting something for nothing!!!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pepper


Racism is never that overt, it's usually very subtle. But it's impact can go far and deep. [/QUOTE}

Puhlease explain to me why Asians aren't suffering from this racism that is supposedly keeping other minorities from succeeding. Maybe you think whites and Asians are in cahoots? No, the reality is that black and Mexican culture doesn't endorse education like white and Asian culture.

In my old high school (20% black), anyone could sign up for honors courses. But there were a total of 3 black students of 100ish students that ever took any of my high school honors courses (only 1 was a regular...and no, he wasn't a victim of racism. He was well-liked and popular.) On the other hand, there was a disproportionate number of Asians in my classes. The problem at my school was that blacks were not educating themselves by choice, not racism.

Furthermore, I"ve NEVER seen a racist act by a white in my entire life, although I have witnessed two completely bogus claims of racism against whites (Once, as a basketball official, a team accused me of calling fouls on black players...yeah right. And the other time I saw a white CD store clerk go outside to make a cell phone call and a black customer ridiculously accused the clerk of checking his license plate because of his race. The black customer cancelled his purchase and left the store because of this "incident").

Now, I acknowledge that my personal experience is not necessarily representative of the entire nation, but it does serve to verify why blacks are statistically worse off than whites and Asians. And what my personal experience tells me is that contemporary racism is not what's responsible for the statistical differences.

How about taking a look at the real problems minorities face, such as their disproportionate number of violent criminals, substance abusers, and single parent homes? Or are white people to blame for those problems too?

From Pepper
I'm tired of seeing white people in high places.

What do you have against caucasians who work hard to succeed?
Imagine had a white person said that about jews, asaians, or any other ethnicity or race.

Originally posted by Pepper
I don't think your example grasps the nature of institutional racism. In NYC You don't see medical waste incinerators on Park Ave, you find it in the South Bronx. You don't see gas power plants on the west side, you find them strategically placed in some of the poorest neighborhoods in NYC. Try finding a supermarket in a poorer neighborhood. Many big name chains (offering cheaper prices) avoid poor area's because the profit isn't there. They make much more $$$ in big suburb or other affluent areas. Walk around Madison avenue, and then 125th st in Harlem, and tell me which has more military ads?

The thing of it is, there are non-racist explanations for everything you're pointing to as racist. Why does the military advertise more in the black part of town? Because rich people don't join the army in as great a number. I bet the army advertises more in Motor Trend than in Architectural Digest for the same reason. No supermarkets in poor neighborhoods? High crime rates and more people on food stamps that reduce the amount of profit you can get. Which is exactly what you said, and yet you still say that the cause is institutional racism. And power plants, incinerators, and other noxious things tend to go where land is cheap and people don't have the desire or ability to use political means to stop it. Yes, this means inner cities. It also means rural mostly white areas as well. Racism? No, just the way things work.

And again, I'm not trying to say that racism doesn't exist, but if you're hypersensitive, you'll think you're seeing it everywhere. Just the other day we were walking our dog and came across a black guy with a huge pit bull. We gave them plenty of room. Within a minute we came across a white family with a collie and we let our dog sniff their dog. Right now that guy or someone like you could be posting on the internet somewhere about how this is an example of institutional racism, when in fact it's an example of me not wanting my wimpy dog to get his face chewed off.

Racism is hardly a black and white issue...



...bein' as how it's practiced by pretty much every color of humanity on this planet...



That said, I believe affirmative action is still needed... up to a point... I remember the bitterness of a white youngster I wuz talkin' to once... He wuz quite CERTAIN he'd been rejected fer a fireman's job because "fire departments ONLY hire unqualified and incompetent minorities these days"...

I hardly think so... The next time ya look at a passin' fire truck, ask yerself if ya see mostly non-white firemen mannin' it? I usually see one or two, while the rest are caucasions... Why is that too much to ask for? And as fer bein' incompetent and unqualified, I very much doubt it... The qualifications fer a great many jobs commonly exceed what is actually needed to properly perform a vast number of jobs out there. In my view, anywayz...

The fireman example parallels that found in many professions... I've hit a closed door myself when a non-white snatched a job I wuz after... That most certainly does NOT make me hate minorities! The problem isn't THEM! The problem is there ain't enuff JOBS to go around! And that's prob'ly gonna get worse, before it ever gets better... IF it ever gets better!

:(