The argument pretty much comes down to four guys, but I am absolutely baffled by what the media has come to a consencus on.

Chris Paul, Lebron James, Kobe Bryant, and Kevin Garnett.

First off, you have to look at WHAT the MVP really means. It's the player that is MOST VALUABLE to their team. If you took that player off their team, the team would suck, or be horrifically worse than what they are.

Unfortunately, it is becoming whoever the best player is on the team with the best record, in the best conference. Conveniently, that would make it go to Kobe Bryant, even though he's not even the most valuable player ON HIS TEAM let alone the NBA.

Do I have a bone to pick with Kobe Bryant? yea, let it be known. The guy is a great scorer, solid defender, and... that's it. His big thing is scoring. Well, Lebron does it better than Kobe, and against tougher defenses. While everyone says the west is just SOOO much better, name a team BESIDES THE SPURS who are a solid defensive team like the Celtics, Pistons, Magic, etc...

But hey, let's look at numbers, and their teams.

Lebron James: 30.0 ppg (48% FG) 7.9 Reb, 7.2 Asts, 1.8 Steals, 1.1 blocks
Kobe Bryant:28.3 ppg (46% FG) 6.3 Reb, 5.3 Asts, 1.8 Steals, 0.5 blocks
Chris Paul:21.0 ppg (49% FG) 4.0 Reb, 11.6 Asts, 2.7 Steals, 0.1 blocks
Kevin Garnett:18.8 ppg (54% FG) 9.2 Reb, 3.4 Asts, 1.2 Steals, 1.2 blocks

Cavs: 45-37
Lakers: 57-25
Hornets: 56-26
Celtics: 66-16

So let's do some analysis:

If you took Garnett off the Celtics, they would still have "big baby", Ray Allen, and Paul Pierce.. they would be in the playoffs.

If you took Kobe off the Lakers, they would still have Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, Bynum, Farmar, and that european guy that hits 3's.. they would be in the playoffs.

If you took Chris Paul off the Hornets, they would have Tyson Chandler and David West, but might be on the outside looking in.

If you took Lebron James off the Cavs, you would have a 20 win team.

Lebron has the best stats, and is the most valuable to his team. It's a No brainer to me. However, the media is mind-fucked into thinking, and repeating, that Kobe Bryant is "the best player on the planet".. which I find to be absolute bullshit. Sure, he's a great athletic scorer, but besides that, Lebron is a better passer, more physical, hustles more.... I am befuddled as to why the media is so set on Kobe being "the greatest" in the NBA.

It might not even be Lebron, I wouldn't mind seeing Chris Paul win it. He surely deserves it. Taking a Hornets team from obscurity to the top of the league. If I had to make a ratings list, it would go:

1. Chris Paul/Lebron James
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Kevin Garnett

Here is the thing... If they don't give it to Lebron James, they HAVE to give it to Chris Paul.. or else it's complete bullshit. Bryant as better players around him, and Chris Paul is a better all around player, and more valuable to his team.

Lakers definitely don't make the playoffs without Kobe...who scores for them? Gasol is good for 20 a game....Odom 15...after that they're hurting. Kobe is my MVP because they finished first in the west, and they've had plenty of injuries of deal with. Not to mention, Kobe is still playing with that hurt finger.

Chris Paul has been absolutely bonkers but it's hard to give it to him when his team has been healthy the whole year. To put it into perspective, they only finished 1 game ahead of Houston who doesn't have their best player.

I have to solemnly disagree with you here Carbon.

The Lakers absolutely do make it to the playoffs. If Bryant isn't bricking 10 fade-away jumpers a game, Gasol becomes a 25-28 ppg scorer overnight. Odom is a great role player who can score and rebound. They have three point shooters and all. They wouldn't be #1, but they would be in for sure.

Meanwhile, The Cavs score about 90-95 points a game.. and Lebron scores 30 of those. AND, he gets 7-8 assists and 8 boards. With all of that, he probably accounts for half of his team's points. No other player in the NBA can say that.

And if the hornets are "only 1 game ahead of houston, who is missing Yao Ming"... then the Lakers are only 2 games ahead of houston, who is missing Yao Ming. Not a very good argument.

And you don't think Lebron has had to put up with injuries? Plus the midseason trade? Plus the beginning of the year holdouts of Sasha and Varajao? It's a NO BRAINER.. but the media has no brains, they want Bryan tto get an MVP

The problem with your logic is that almost none of the best teams in the NBA has less than 2~3 very good players on the team. So you are amplifying a player's MVP legitimacy simply for b being on an otherwise shitty team.

According to your logic, even Michael Jordan shouldn't have gotten any MVP at all, because Pippen alone could've gotten the Bulls into playoffs every year (look, they even had one of the greatest rebounders in NBA history during the second 3-peat run). According to your logic, then, players like Allen Iverson, the pre-Rockets Tracy McGrady, Paul Pierce before this year, and the Toronto Vince Carter, would all have been big MVP candidates, because their team stunk. Consider how ridiculously good Ginobili and Parker are, according to your logic, Tim Duncan would've never won MVP. Neither would Steve Nash. Or Shaq. Or Karl Malone. It would be guys like Lebron every year, who have great individual stats, and have no great teammates. Basically, a great player should forget about running for the MVP as soon as he gets some help. I don't buy that.

I cannot seriously consider a player MVP if their team isn't doing very well.

The best player on the best team should get MVP. Lebron plays on a crap team in a crap conference.

The problem with your logic is that almost none of the best teams in the NBA has less than 2~3 very good players on the team. So you are amplifying a player's MVP legitimacy simply for b being on an otherwise shitty team.

According to your logic, even Michael Jordan shouldn't have gotten any MVP at all, because Pippen alone could've gotten the Bulls into playoffs every year (look, they even had one of the greatest rebounders in NBA history during the second 3-peat run). According to your logic, then, players like Allen Iverson, the pre-Rockets Tracy McGrady, Paul Pierce before this year, and the Toronto Vince Carter, would all have been big MVP candidates, because their team stunk. Consider how ridiculously good Ginobili and Parker are, according to your logic, Tim Duncan would've never won MVP. Neither would Steve Nash. Or Shaq. Or Karl Malone. It would be guys like Lebron every year, who have great individual stats, and have no great teammates. Basically, a great player should forget about running for the MVP as soon as he gets some help. I don't buy that.

I cannot seriously consider a player MVP if their team isn't doing very well.

Bingo. Lebron can't get it because he's in a situation that artificially enhances his statistics. (Cavs stink so he has to do EVERYTHING, which in turn makes him look better) It's the same reason I couldn't stand when Nash won back-to-back MVPs; he's an outstanding offensive PG who was on a team that focused on offense. He was surrounded by shooters (Leandro Barbosa, Raja Bell) and fantastic athletes. (Amare Stoudamire, Shawn Marion) That team ran because of Nash, but it was built for him! How valuable can he be when if he's put on one of the other 29 teams, he becomes half as good?

Chris Paul has been fantastic, but the MVP should go to KG or Kobe.

I still think Kobe should be in prison, not on an NBA playoff team.

Chris Paul should be the MVP, hands down in my opinion. Lebron has had everything handed to him his entire life. Rooting for him to win an MVP is like rooting for the school yard bully to pummel some poor kid at recess.

How valuable can he be when if he's put on one of the other 29 teams, he becomes half as good?

Isn't that the definition of valuable? He's the most valuable player on his team because he team would fall farther if he left.

(I'm just making the argument - I'm not into the NBA enough to say whether he's the MVP or not).

Dio... the Cavs are not a shitty team. They have had injuries, won 45 games, had a mid-season trade, and are the #4 seed in the East. Meanwhile Iverson, Pierce, and those you mentioned were on non-playoff teams or #8 seeds. Big difference.

But the Conference talk brings me to Trav's BS point. You can say the west is better than the east, the results speak for themselves. However, the west has much more wide-open games, scoring way more and a faster-paced tempo. With that in mind, the fact that Lebron James lead the league in scoring with probably much less possessions than Chris Paul or Kobe is amazing in itself. AND you CANNOT dispute that the Celtics, Pistons, and Magic have better D than every team in the west besides San Antonio. Plus, Lebron averages close to a triple double, it's a freakin no brainer.

And I want to know which way it is.. because I hear this excuse for Kobe all the time, but now he's getting MVP votes.

Kobe supposedly "didn't have anyone around him".. which is why his team sucked and got knocked out of the first round every year. Everyone knew he had a bad FG % and jacked up shots for stats.. that's why he wasn't valuable. He made for bad team chemistry... and didn't dish the ball to his teammates.

Now that Kobe has a stacked line-up.. he's an MVP candidate? I thought you had to carry your team to be MVP. Lebron CARRIED the cavs. No Lebron = 20 wins for the cavs. Micheal Jordan CARRIED the bulls. Scottie Pippen blew in Portland and wherever he went after. Dirk Nowitzki was unstoppable last year, and was the vital piece to a 60+ win team. Nash got injured and the suns would go on a losing streak, he'd come back and they'd win again.. that's why Nash got MVP's... he carried the team. He was most valuable.

I don't mind Chris Paul getting the MVP.. but there is NO WAY IN HELL that Kobe should get it. Paul is a better player, and has made more out of his players than Kobe could ever dream of.

the bias of the voting in this MVP thing was so horrid. Lebron James got ONE VOTE... he lead the league in scoring, and is one of only three people to average 30, 7 rebs, and 7 assists.... Kobe won by a freakin LANDSLIDE... it's nice to know that the MVP has become a lifetime achievement award. One that he doesn't deserve either.. what has he ever won without a big man?

I still think Kobe should be in prison, not on an NBA playoff team.

is like rooting for the school yard bully to pummel some poor kid at recess. a sure thing is a sure thing.... james might play for a crap team in a conference,but if jorden can claim to the title when he payed with Pippen.. then James should of gotten it.

.. what has he ever won without a big man?

oh gawd I hope you not talking about fat shaq. He doesnt take away from anything Kobe has done. I agree Kobe might not deserve the MVP,but he is definetly on the top 10 of the greatest players ever in the NBA, I say top 3 from the post Bird/magic era. Fat Shaq is right where he belongs.

I think LBJ should have been ahead of KG.

Think about it. Where are the Celtics without KG and with LBJ? #1 seed in east.

Where are the Cavs without LBJ and with KG? 6th seed? It's not even close.

i dont think KG is ahead of Kobe,or LBJ on anyones list.

oh gawd I hope you not talking about fat shaq. He doesnt take away from anything Kobe has done. I agree Kobe might not deserve the MVP,but he is definetly on the top 10 of the greatest players ever in the NBA, I say top 3 from the post Bird/magic era. Fat Shaq is right where he belongs.

In my opinion.. you are horridly mistaken. While I agree with the negative outlook on shaq, he was the reason why kobe won anything. The only reason Shaq was so dominant was because the refs allowed him to commit 3 offensive fouls every time down the floor. He would just barrel his 345 pounds into whoever and get to the bucket. So, with that in mind, people would double team him right away, giving Kobe wide open jumpers and an arena to gain confidence.

I don't deny that Kobe is a great player. He's a great scorer, solid defender.. and that's about it. However, I would take tons of people over Kobe if you wanted to pick up somebody who you wanted to build your team around.

Lebron, Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki, Steve Nash... as far as a scorer, they are a dime a dozen: Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter, Allen Iverson...

And top players after the Bird/Magic era? There are tons better or right with Kobe. The Bird magic era probably ended around 94. Hakeem was in his prime, David Robinson, Jason Kidd, Kevin Garnett, John Stockton, Tim Duncan, Shaq, Reggie Miller, Dwight Howard, Gary Payton, Shawn Kemp, Steve Nash, Gilbert Arenas/Dwayne Wade are hurt alot but right up there, Manu Ginobli/Tony Parker in the playoffs, Patrick Ewing, Alonzo Mourning, Dirk Nowitzki, LBJ, Chris Webber, Karl Malone... all of those you could make a case that at their best were better than, or are better than, Kobe.

Your saying he's one of the 10 greatest of all time is laughable.. that doesn't even deserve a response. He would be lucky to serve anyone from the top 10 drinks or be their waiter.

Kobe is a top 10 player of all-time. He has 3 rings, (on his way to a fourth) he scored 81 FREAKING POINTS IN A GAME (I don't care if he was ballhogging at the time, that's still completely ridiculous. There's a reason only Wilt is ahead of him) He's always one of the leagues top defenders...he's the most complete player in the league right now.

And top players after the Bird/Magic era? There are tons better or right with Kobe. The Bird magic era probably ended around 94. Hakeem was in his prime OK, David Robinson LOL? He's not even close to Kobe, Jason Kidd In his prime it could be debated since he was a fantastic defender but he's white and he can't play D anymore, Kevin Garnett 0 rings, John Stockton LOL no way, Tim Duncan OK, Shaq OK, Reggie Miller NO WAY, Dwight Howard Maybe down the line, not yet, Gary Payton He was good but not Kobe's level, Shawn Kemp COME ON DECKA YOU SAW HIM IN CLEVELAND!, Steve Nash Plays no D, Gilbert Arenas/Dwayne Wade Neither are on Kobe's levelare hurt alot but right up there, Manu Ginobli/Tony Parker Not on Kobe's levelin the playoffs, Patrick Ewing 0 rings, Alonzo Mourning Cancer derailed career, Dirk Nowitzki He's 7 ft and he cant play in the post, LBJ OK, Chris Webber TIMEOUT!!, Karl Malone 0 rings and an asshole... all of those you could make a case that at their best were better than, or are better than, Kobe.

You are sadly mistaken. I can easily name 25 players better than Kobe all time that are FAR ahead of Kobe....

1. Wilt Chamberlin
2. Bill Russell
3. Michael Jordan
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Jerry West
6. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
7. Larry Bird
8. Magic Johnson
9. Julius Erving
10. Bob Cousy
11. John Havlichek
12. Elvin Hayes
13. George Gervin
14. Hakeem Olajuwon
15. Bob Pettit
16. Nate Thurmond
17. Isiah Thomas
18. Charles Barkley
19. John Stockton
20. Karl Malone
21. Moses Malone
22. Tim Duncan
23. Steve Nash
24. Dave Cowens
25. Shaquille O'Neal

And those are EASY.. players who clearly had, or are having, better careers...

Your "rings" argument is bullshit, because Kobe didn't "win" those, he had Shaq. Shaq was allowed to dominate the inside because refs wouldn't call offensive fouls on him. How many finals MVP's does Kobe Bryant have? ZERO, you guessed it, it was shaq every time. He was the man, and Kobe just road the coattails. And there were also pivotal great role players, like Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Glen Rice, Ron Harper... so don't even try to say that Kobe "won" those championships...

And let me address a few of your ill-conceived notions of certain players I listed.

John Stockton leads the NBA all time in assists AND steals.. nobody else has 60% of his numbers in those two categories...

Jason Kidd in his prime did something often called a TRIPLE DOUBLE, something Kobe doesn't know about.

David Robinson was league leader in scoring, MVP, and most dominating centers in the league throughout the early 90's. He had a QUADRUPLE DOUBLE, and scored 71 points in a game.. oooo oooo!!!!

Oh, and Manu Ginobli and Tony Parker OWN Kobe in the playoffs. They are probably the best guard duo in NBA playoff history. They don't do jack shit in the regular season, but bust out to average like 30 points and 10 assists a game in the playoffs.

I think you, among others, are just obsessed with Bryant because he's flashy, but at the end of the day.. he's a great scorer, solid defender, and that's it. he scored 81 points? big deal, he shot the ball almost every time down the floor that year, and his FG percentage was average at best. Without Shaq, Kobe hasn't proven anything. Look at Anfernee hardaway without Shaq.. look at Dwayne Wade without Shaq... ding dong!

Bryant might be in the top 50 greatest players... but he sure ain't in the top 25.

You are sadly mistaken. I can easily name 25 players better than Kobe all time that are FAR ahead of Kobe....

1. Wilt Chamberlin
2. Bill Russell
3. Michael Jordan
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Jerry West
6. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
7. Larry Bird
8. Magic Johnson
9. Julius Erving
10. Bob Cousy
11. John Havlichek
12. Elvin Hayes
13. George Gervin
14. Hakeem Olajuwon
15. Bob Pettit
16. Nate Thurmond
17. Isiah Thomas
18. Charles Barkley
19. John Stockton
20. Karl Malone
21. Moses Malone
22. Tim Duncan
23. Steve Nash
24. Dave Cowens
25. Shaquille O'Neal

And those are EASY.. players who clearly had, or are having, better careers...

How are you defining a "great" career? You sit here and tell me my rings argument is bullshit but guess what? That's the whole reason people play the game! "You play to win the game! Hello?" If you want to go by numbers, Kobe averaged 35 points a game 2 years ago! This year, he averaged 28/6/5! What criteria are you using? If we were team leaders of a pick-up game, you're going to tell me you'd honestly pick STEVE NASH over KOBE? What the fuck has Steve Nash done? He's at home watching TV by the time June rolls around. He can't defend. You list all these old time players, but guess what...it's a lot harder to get into the NBA now than it was back then. There's simply more people on the planet and we have players from all across the globe trying to make it into the NBA now. And Kobe is easily among the elite in the NBA.

Your "rings" argument is bullshit, because Kobe didn't "win" those, he had Shaq. Shaq was allowed to dominate the inside because refs wouldn't call offensive fouls on him. How many finals MVP's does Kobe Bryant have? ZERO, you guessed it, it was shaq every time. He was the man, and Kobe just road the coattails. And there were also pivotal great role players, like Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Glen Rice, Ron Harper... so don't even try to say that Kobe "won" those championships...

You play to win the game. How many titles has Shaq won by himself? Why did him and Penny Hardaway get swept by the Rockets? This was even before Shaq got fat!

John Stockton leads the NBA all time in assists AND steals.. nobody else has 60% of his numbers in those two categories...

He played a long time, he was very consistent, and he never got hurt. If you're going to use career numbers as a measuring stick then come back and talk to me after Kobe retires and we'll see where his numbers are. Very few players will have better numbers than Kobe will.

Jason Kidd in his prime did something often called a TRIPLE DOUBLE, something Kobe doesn't know about.

Who cares? Jason Kidd can rack up those 12/11/10 triple doubles and I'll take Kobe's 30/5/5. Kobe has a bigger impact on the game, period.

David Robinson was league leader in scoring, MVP, and most dominating centers in the league throughout the early 90's. He had a QUADRUPLE DOUBLE, and scored 71 points in a game.. oooo oooo!!!!

And you know what's more than 71 points? 81! He's no Hakeem, or Shaq, or Duncan. Is he better than Ewing? How many SGs has played in the league at the same time as Kobe and was better than him? Jordan, Iverson (altho, I don't feel right about calling Iverson just a SG since he sort of runs the point as well) and....?

Oh, and Manu Ginobli and Tony Parker OWN Kobe in the playoffs. They are probably the best guard duo in NBA playoff history. They don't do jack shit in the regular season, but bust out to average like 30 points and 10 assists a game in the playoffs.

Kobe's averaging 34/6/6 this year in the playoffs, and he doesn't mail in the regular season. Kobe's All-NBA first team, Manu is third team and Tony isn't on anything. Clearly, Kobe can't hang with either player.

I think you, among others, are just obsessed with Bryant because he's flashy, but at the end of the day.. he's a great scorer, solid defender, and that's it. he scored 81 points? big deal, he shot the ball almost every time down the floor that year, and his FG percentage was average at best. Without Shaq, Kobe hasn't proven anything. Look at Anfernee hardaway without Shaq.. look at Dwayne Wade without Shaq... ding dong!

1. Obsessed with Kobe? I'm simply defending him because he's one of the league's top defenders (he finished third or fourth in defensive player of the year this year) and one of the few players who can actually create his own shot. You seem like you have a grudge against him or something.

2. Your mancrush Steve Nash couldn't win with Shaq. And he had Amare Stoudamire. And Grant Hill. And Leandro Barbosa. I still can't get over that. Steve Nash is better than Kobe? Are you serious?

The Shaq of today and the Shaq of 5 years ago are very different players. Kobe no longer has any superior players on his team, if he can just get this Lakers team to the finals, I think that would qualify him more than the Shaq led Laker teams that Kobe happened to be on.

The Shaq of today and the Shaq of 5 years ago are very different players. Kobe no longer has any superior players on his team, if he can just get this Lakers team to the finals, I think that would qualify him more than the Shaq led Laker teams that Kobe happened to be on.

I was referring to the Shaq of 2 years ago that got handed the NBA trophy on a silver platter by Dwyane Wade, since Decka said the Heat sucked this year because they didn't have Shaq. (They still sucked even when Shaq and Wade both played)

Hey, you take Kobe's 28/5/5.. I'll take Lebrons 30/7/7...

Steve Nash? 2 MVP's, his team victim to a referee betting scandal against the Spurs last year, and has been the best point guard in the league for the past 6 years. 18-20 points, 12 assists... that's monster. For how much Nash shoots, and how much Kobe shoots... Nash is a much more productive player. You damn right I'd take Nash if I were starting a franchise.

Shaq? Dwayne Wade didn't hand him anything... I think Wade went to the line like 20 times a game in that series... I think the refs did plenty of "handing" in that series. One of the worst officiated finals i've ever seen. You can't deny that every team Shaq has ever been on has been to the playoffs... Even though I hate the big douche, he was much more effective than Kobe in his prime.

You obviously are pretty oblivious to NBA history if you don't know how good David Robinson was.

A triple double is more impact on the game than anything Kobe can do... Lebron knows, Kidd knows... Kobe? not so much.

Okay, so you want to say "what the fuck has steve nash done"... yea, this year they played the NBA champions in the first round. They had injuries, a big trade, and a disappointing end to the season. My question is.. what the fuck did Kobe do the last couple of years... lose to the suns? Kobe isn't even the MVP on his own team. Gasol and Odom are what is making that team click. Kobe just lost the game for his team against the Jazz. Even though he wasn't hitting jack, he still took the ball out of other players hands and hauled up 33 shots... way to go. At least Lebron knows not to shoot the ball 33 times when he isn't hitting. Oh yea, and he's more aggressive, has better court vision, and is a better athlete.. but let's just forget about that.. right?

Career stats should be taken into context, but Kobe started playing at like 18, so his might be inflated a bit when he was picking up junk points for the lakers when they would get swept by the Jazz or Spurs in the first round in the late 90's.

I'll give Kobe more credit if he can take a team somewhere. This year he did okay. He didn't even come close to what Lebron had to deal with though.. and Kobe gets 80+ votes and LBJ gets ONE LMAO... A lifetime achievement award indeed, given by the media, to their precious Kobe.

Kobe ain't a team player, so that's why I don't want him on my team. I'd take Nash, Lebron, Nowitzki, Duncan, Howard, Garnett, and Chris Paul over Kobe. Kobe is basically Tracy McGrady but with a better team around him. nuff said.

Hey, you take Kobe's 28/5/5.. I'll take Lebrons 30/7/7...

LoL, okay you got me. Kobe's stats are slightly worse than the best stat-filler in the NBA. Kobe also consistently D's the opposing team's best perimeter player, Lebron doesn't do that until the 4th quarter really.

Steve Nash? 2 MVP's, his team victim to a referee betting scandal against the Spurs last year, and has been the best point guard in the league for the past 6 years. 18-20 points, 12 assists... that's monster. For how much Nash shoots, and how much Kobe shoots... Nash is a much more productive player. You damn right I'd take Nash if I were starting a franchise.

1. The MVP award isn't a good measuring stick. Nash had better numbers in 2007 than in 2006 and yet he didn't get his third MVP...Dirk had better numbers in 2006 than in 2007 and he won it over Nash in 2007! You know as well as I do that makes no sense. Basically they didn't want to give Nash a third MVP award. Here's the list of players with at least 3 MVP awards: Kareem, Russell, Jordan, Chamberlain, Bird, Magic, and Moses. That's the list. I don't care how high you are on Nash, you know he doesn't belong with those players.

2. Nash's stats are inflated because Phoenix is such an offensive oriented team. When you have a lot of shooters, it's pretty easy to rack up the assists. (Chris Paul is another example of this) Think about it this way, what do you think Nash's numbers would be if he was on the Cavs instead of Lebron? How valuable is he when he's distributing the ball to jabronis who can't hit jumpers? His percentages would fall since he'd have to take more shots himself, he'd definitely have less assists. I don't want to sound like a total Nash hater...he is a terrific offensive point guard, but you definitely don't take a 33 year old point guard to start your franchise over a guy who can take over a game like Kobe.

Shaq? Dwayne Wade didn't hand him anything... I think Wade went to the line like 20 times a game in that series... I think the refs did plenty of "handing" in that series. One of the worst officiated finals i've ever seen. You can't deny that every team Shaq has ever been on has been to the playoffs... Even though I hate the big douche, he was much more effective than Kobe in his prime.

Yeah, that was an awful series. Miami is the worst team to win the finals that I can think of in recent memory.

You obviously are pretty oblivious to NBA history if you don't know how good David Robinson was.

He's not better than Hakeem, Shaq, or Duncan. All players that Robinson played against. Just sayin' Kobe doesn't get outmatched at the 2.

A triple double is more impact on the game than anything Kobe can do... Lebron knows, Kidd knows... Kobe? not so much.

Yeah scoring a lot of points when the object of the game is to score more points than the opponent obviously has less impact on the game than rebounding.

Okay, so you want to say "what the fuck has steve nash done"... yea, this year they played the NBA champions in the first round. They had injuries, a big trade, and a disappointing end to the season. My question is.. what the fuck did Kobe do the last couple of years... lose to the suns? Kobe isn't even the MVP on his own team. Gasol and Odom are what is making that team click. Kobe just lost the game for his team against the Jazz. Even though he wasn't hitting jack, he still took the ball out of other players hands and hauled up 33 shots... way to go. At least Lebron knows not to shoot the ball 33 times when he isn't hitting. Oh yea, and he's more aggressive, has better court vision, and is a better athlete.. but let's just forget about that.. right?

1. I feel Odom is a lot like Z in the sense that he's a good player that can definitely be a part of a championship team, but it's not going to happen if he's your second scoring option. He's been playing better this year than the last couple two probably because there's less defensive focus on him and there's less pressure on him. Odom certainly didn't make the team click before Gasol got there. No argument about Gasol, he's a perfect fit for the triangle offense.

2. When have I ever said Kobe is better than LBJ? How many players can say they're as good as Lebron? I think the fact that you hold Kobe up to LBJ's standards is a pretty good indication of how good Kobe really is.


I'll give Kobe more credit if he can take a team somewhere. This year he did okay. He didn't even come close to what Lebron had to deal with though.. and Kobe gets 80+ votes and LBJ gets ONE LMAO... A lifetime achievement award indeed, given by the media, to their precious Kobe.

Same reason why I dismiss Nash's MVP awards.

Kobe ain't a team player, so that's why I don't want him on my team. I'd take Nash, Lebron, Nowitzki, Duncan, Howard, Garnett, and Chris Paul over Kobe. Kobe is basically Tracy McGrady but with a better team around him. nuff said.

I agree with LBJ, Paul, and Howard since they're so young and dominant already, more so than Kobe was at the same stage of their careers. Duncan too since he's the best PF of all time. (fuck you Karl Malone!) I disagree with Garnett but that's splitting hairs...Nash and Dirk I strongly disagree with but I think we're bickering about enough shit as is!

Yea, it might be a bit of an "emotional issue" with me. Why? It's about what MATTERS in basketball.. at least to me. I hear all these analysts and people just say, with no contemplation or conflict, that Kobe Bryant is "the best player on the planet". That is the most flawed statement I've ever heard. He's a great player, but to just blatantly say that pisses me off. He's not. Like i've said, he's a great scorer, probably the second or third best in the league, and a good defender. But "Best player on the planet" he is not. I'm sick of all the "KOBE IS THE GREATEST" crap..

I compare it to Muhammad Ali. The guy went around saying he was the greatest for years, so analysts bit and now he IS "the greatest"... He's a "hero".. even though he got his belt stripped for defecting from the draft, and even though he was a cocky asshole... some hero. I happen to think Mike Tyson would knock him out in 3 rounds if it were Ali at his prime vs. a 20-22 year old Tyson (before Don King and the head problems).



LoL, okay you got me. Kobe's stats are slightly worse than the best stat-filler in the NBA. Kobe also consistently D's the opposing team's best perimeter player, Lebron doesn't do that until the 4th quarter really.

You might have an argument if you want to say that early on in his career, Lebron wasn't a good defender. I don't see why he isn't at least CONSIDERED.. it's almost as if he's recieved a stigma. He has improved greatly in that part of his game.



1. The MVP award isn't a good measuring stick. Nash had better numbers in 2007 than in 2006 and yet he didn't get his third MVP...Dirk had better numbers in 2006 than in 2007 and he won it over Nash in 2007! You know as well as I do that makes no sense. Basically they didn't want to give Nash a third MVP award. Here's the list of players with at least 3 MVP awards: Kareem, Russell, Jordan, Chamberlain, Bird, Magic, and Moses. That's the list. I don't care how high you are on Nash, you know he doesn't belong with those players.

No, I don't think Nash belongs with those players. However, numbers aren't only what define the MVP. In 2005 and 2006, Nash got injured for like 10 games in each year, and each time they would go on a 2-8 stretch.. then he would come back and they would win 10 straight. Nash is what made that team click. Without Nash, Barbosa, Bell, Joe Johnson, Diaw.. all those guys don't get the wide open looks they got over the years. Nash could penetrate and draw defenders.

2. Nash's stats are inflated because Phoenix is such an offensive oriented team. When you have a lot of shooters, it's pretty easy to rack up the assists. (Chris Paul is another example of this) Think about it this way, what do you think Nash's numbers would be if he was on the Cavs instead of Lebron? How valuable is he when he's distributing the ball to jabronis who can't hit jumpers? His percentages would fall since he'd have to take more shots himself, he'd definitely have less assists. I don't want to sound like a total Nash hater...he is a terrific offensive point guard, but you definitely don't take a 33 year old point guard to start your franchise over a guy who can take over a game like Kobe.

I can say the same think about Kobe. Kobe's stats are inflated because he plays in the up-tempo west.. which makes Lebron's stats that much more amazing. Not only can Lebron out-score the "best player on the planet" in his best category in games that end up being 92-87.. but he can just all out dominate a game more than the "best player on the planet".

As for Nash on the Cavs... Nash is a great point guard. Something that great point guards do is get people the ball, in rythm, and on the money. With all that, people shoot a lot better. You forget that the NBA is full of people who can shoot the lights out. I don't care who it is. I played basketball with Bobby Sura when he was in the NBA (he would visit the gym I went to).. and while in the NBA he wasn't seen as a great shooter, he was LIGHTS OUT whenever I played with him. He just didn't miss. If anyone gets the confidence up and gets shots in rythm, things Nash does for ANYONE.. they will become better players. So, I can guarantee that Damon Jones, Wally, Boobie would all shoot the 3 ball a lot better if Nash were on that team... a Nash in his prime that is.

As for taking a 33 year old point guard.. I was referring to if I would take a 25 year old Nash or a 25 year old Kobe.. I'd take Nash every time. He makes people around him better, and is a team player, as well as a very positive player. Kobe really isn't.



Yeah, that was an awful series. Miami is the worst team to win the finals that I can think of in recent memory.

I'm glad we can agree on SOME things Carbon LOL. have you gone back and watched that series??? You weren't allowed to BREATHE on Dwayne Wade. I think the NBA might have capitalized on trying to make a superstar out of D-wade, with the help of a "New Shaq" in Miami, and also wanted to screw Cuban, who they don't happen to like. Look it up on youtube, there was a game when they messed the clock up in the Heat's favor which allowed them to win the game. And also there were times when D-wade would shoot, fall over on his ass, like he does EVERY SHOT, and they would call the foul when there was NO contact AT ALL. That series I think may have been fixed, and I think it was the last major event to be fixed, because of the whole Daughrety scandal... they have cracked down.



He's not better than Hakeem, Shaq, or Duncan. All players that Robinson played against. Just sayin' Kobe doesn't get outmatched at the 2.

If Lebron is playing 2, he's a better player. If T-Mac is at the 2, they are about the same player. A younger Vince Carter is about the same. Don't get me wrong, I'm not denying that Kobe is a great player... he's just not hands down the best.

And David Robinson might not have been "better" than those guys, but he was on their level. He's considered one of the top 10 greatest centers in NBA history, via the 50 greatest players list which had 20 guards, 20 forwards, and 10 centers.. so that is saying a lot.


Yeah scoring a lot of points when the object of the game is to score more points than the opponent obviously has less impact on the game than rebounding.

Okay, we butt heads again. A rebound can turn into 2 points. An assist IS 2-3 points. So if Lebron goes 30-11-10.. you can bet he probably had a hand in or was responsible for 60+ of his team's points. Kobe can only do that if he scores 50+ and has a few assists. Lebron is just a better team player, and a better overall player.. period.



1. I feel Odom is a lot like Z in the sense that he's a good player that can definitely be a part of a championship team, but it's not going to happen if he's your second scoring option. He's been playing better this year than the last couple two probably because there's less defensive focus on him and there's less pressure on him. Odom certainly didn't make the team click before Gasol got there. No argument about Gasol, he's a perfect fit for the triangle offense.

Odom is a solid player. I agree that he isn't a GREAT scoring option, but he has managed to average high double digits for years. Gasol makes that team so much better. He's really the most important piece of the Lakers IMO. While Kobe is the cherry on top... it's the guy who gets 20+ points, 12 boards, and 5 assists, as well as blocking 2 shots and changing 10 others, that makes the difference.

2. When have I ever said Kobe is better than LBJ? How many players can say they're as good as Lebron? I think the fact that you hold Kobe up to LBJ's standards is a pretty good indication of how good Kobe really is.


You never directly said it, but come on.. if you think Kobe is deserving of the MVP, you are saying he is better than Lebron. Lebron outscored Kobe, out assisted Kobe, out rebounded Kobe, had a better shooting percentage... AND he was on an injury riddled team who had half of his roster changed mid season, while being surrounded by players not as good as those around Kobe. People might have "felt sorry" that Kobe hasn't gotten an MVP, even though he's always "been there"... getting in front of the camera and taking glory for championships when he was but a piece of the pie, raping women in Denver, or at least cheating on his wife, demanding trades, being selfish.. Kobe is a media reporter's wet dream. Lebron shuts up and plays. That is no good. That is why Terrell Owens is supposedly "better" than Marvin Harrison, even though we all know that isn't true.


Same reason why I dismiss Nash's MVP awards.


The year Nash won his MVP's.. they were a top team.. and i guess that has SOMETHING to do with it. But that, PLUS what the team did in his absense, made the MVP voting clear. His numbers may have gotten better in 2007.. but the Mavericks won 67 games that year. Dirk was a monster, averaging 25+, 10 boards, a 90+% free throw shooter, a 40+% 3-point shooter... Dirk was no "fill in" MVP, he's the toughest mis-match in the league.. bar-none.

I agree with LBJ, Paul, and Howard since they're so young and dominant already, more so than Kobe was at the same stage of their careers. Duncan too since he's the best PF of all time. (fuck you Karl Malone!) I disagree with Garnett but that's splitting hairs...Nash and Dirk I strongly disagree with but I think we're bickering about enough shit as is!

I'm a huge fan of Nash and Dirk, but not just because what they have done. They have good attitudes, they bring things to their team (Nash more than Dirk). I love dirk because he is a player you have never seen before. A 7 footer who shoots like Reggie Miller. Yea, he's not Anthony Mason down low, but he gets his hands in your face when you shoot. He's not a muscle-buster, but that's not his game. Kobe isn't exactly Charles Oakly in the post or on D either. And by the way, Kobe is a dirty fuck.. remember that elbow on Miller? Or how about that follow through against the spurs in the playoffs? He might be "growing up" now.. but it sure as hell took him long enough.

Carbon, I like the NBA chat.. I enjoy your point of view. I'm sure you can tell that I get pretty worked up about it. I guess sometimes you have to "agree to disagree"...which I can do. I just think each side should know WHY they think what they do. Oh, and it's always fun to throw out who you think is better than who... always a fun debate when you have two different perspectives....

FTW:

Kobe is basically Tracy McGrady but with a better team around him. nuff said.

$$$

I think Lebron has the potential to improve further, and if he does he will be better than Kobe. But at this time, Kobe is a better player. Kobe controls the game and defends better, is a better shooter from the outside and a much better shooter from the freethrow line. You watch Lebron play and you can see he's just not as skilled and fundamentally sound as Kobe. It's a lot of reliance on athleticism. He does have better court vision though. Both are super clutch.

1. Wilt Chamberlin
2. Bill Russell
3. Michael Jordan
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Jerry West
6. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
7. Larry Bird
8. Magic Johnson
9. Julius Erving
10. Bob Cousy
11. John Havlichek
12. Elvin Hayes
13. George Gervin
14. Hakeem Olajuwon
15. Bob Pettit
16. Nate Thurmond
17. Isiah Thomas
18. Charles Barkley
19. John Stockton
20. Karl Malone
21. Moses Malone
22. Tim Duncan
23. Steve Nash
24. Dave Cowens
25. Shaquille O'Neal

Not a bad list. But I would put Kobe Bryant ahead of Dave Cowens, Steve Nash, Nate Thurmond, George Gervin, John Havlicek, Elvin Hayes, and Julius Ervin. Look hard at these people's accomplishments and the actual skills, and put into context when and where they played during their career. You will see that they are not really better than Kobe, and Kobe has still got about 6~8 good years left to go.

As great as Jerry West was, you look at his actual accomplishment it's very similar Kobe. Almost the exact same playing style and skill level. Went to the Finals 9 times with Baylor and Chamberlain, but only one ring. Got a Finals MVP for being on the losing team. I'd say it's for sentimental reasons that he's ranked higher than Magic, Bird, and Duncan. I'd rank him slightly better than Kobe, but by the time Kobe retires I suspect I'd rank Kobe higher.

Also, Charles Barkley and Karl Malone I see more as a "lifetime achievement" that you put up there. Great stat and very dominant, but not the same league and Shaq, Olajuwon, and Duncan. I think I'd take Kobe over these two as well if he continues his level of play for another 5 years.