Six teen girls lured another into a house where they beat her for thirty minutes, taping the beating. The victim was knocked unconscious and beaten again when she regained consciousness. She has suffered damage to her left eye and left ear.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/southwest/orl-gagorder1008apr10,0,429198.story


I think the six girls and their two male accomplices should be tried as adults and not allowed to be tried as minors which would mean the maximum they could get would be a short stay in a juvenile detention facility.

I heard about this story. Shoulda put it in the MIND-BLOWER thread... 'cuz it really is one!!

Amazing and disgusting.

Saw that on television. Aren't they a special bunch?

Myspace is the root of all evil.

I heard that one of the girls asked after she got in trouble if that meant she would miss cheerleading practice.

What a twit.

Disgusting and just down right dumb. Some people really need to find things to do.

What do you think would be a fitting punishment for the girls and the two guy lookouts?

Shock treatment!:taser:

What do you think would be a fitting punishment for the girls and the two guy lookouts?

How about some of that Scared Straight stuff they used to do? No doubt there are some pretty scary women prisoners being housed closeby. Maybe those girls should be forced to spend a weekend in the cell next to one? Show 'em how much fun they'll be having in 5-6 years if they continue along the same stupid path.

:taser:

Six teen girls lured another into a house where they beat her for thirty minutes, taping the beating. The victim was knocked unconscious and beaten again when she regained consciousness. She has suffered damage to her left eye and left ear.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/southwest/orl-gagorder1008apr10,0,429198.story


I think the six girls and their two male accomplices should be tried as adults and not allowed to be tried as minors which would mean the maximum they could get would be a short stay in a juvenile detention facility.

They are old enough to do the time REAL time!

What do you think would be a fitting punishment for the girls and the two guy lookouts?

And beat them for 30 minutes!

Six teen girls lured another into a house where they beat her for thirty minutes, taping the beating. The victim was knocked unconscious and beaten again when she regained consciousness. She has suffered damage to her left eye and left ear.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/southwest/orl-gagorder1008apr10,0,429198.story


I think the six girls and their two male accomplices should be tried as adults and not allowed to be tried as minors which would mean the maximum they could get would be a short stay in a juvenile detention facility.



I seen this on the news this morning. Sickening is what it is.
I agree they shouldn't be tried as juveniles,but as adults.

Six teen girls lured another into a house where they beat her for thirty minutes, taping the beating. The victim was knocked unconscious and beaten again when she regained consciousness. She has suffered damage to her left eye and left ear.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/southwest/orl-gagorder1008apr10,0,429198.story


I think the six girls and their two male accomplices should be tried as adults and not allowed to be tried as minors which would mean the maximum they could get would be a short stay in a juvenile detention facility.


man..i just felt sick to my stomach watching that.. I don't think they should be Scared Straight, but infact should do some time for a real crime...

http://www.wftv.com/news/15845521/detail.html

Okay, no doubt this is a crime (assault), but I'm not sure why they should be treated differently from other juvenile offenders. Kids beat each other up all of the time - if we tried all of them as adults, we would seriously be flooding the system.

Now, they're charging the kids with kidnapping, in addition to charging them as adults. I think that's seriously overboard.

They're sixteen - They should be punished, but I don't think this should ruin the rest of their lives.

This reminds me a bit of the Jena 6 case, but that was like a 6-on-1 beating (some of it while the kid was unconscious) and those kids got off much easier than what we're talking about here.

The fact that there's a video doesn't make the crime worse.

Leper, would you feel that way if it was your daughter that got beat up?

They're 16, not 6....they were mean and should pay for the crime, period.

Leper, would you feel that way if it was your daughter that got beat up?



My opinion wouldn't change just because the issue is up close and personal.

They're 16, not 6....they were mean and should pay for the crime, period.

I don't know about you, but most model citizens were not so when they were sixteen. Hell, one of our presidential candidates was searching around for "blow" back at that age.

http://www.wftv.com/news/15845521/detail.html

Okay, no doubt this is a crime (assault), but I'm not sure why they should be treated differently from other juvenile offenders. Kids beat each other up all of the time - if we tried all of them as adults, we would seriously be flooding the system.

Now, they're charging the kids with kidnapping, in addition to charging them as adults. I think that's seriously overboard.

They're sixteen - They should be punished, but I don't think this should ruin the rest of their lives.

This reminds me a bit of the Jena 6 case, but that was like a 6-on-1 beating (some of it while the kid was unconscious) and those kids got off much easier than what we're talking about here.

The fact that there's a video doesn't make the crime worse.

The issue isn't that beating but how it took place and the pre-planning that went into it. I teach at an RTC and we see fights almost daily. But they usually happen quickly and are over just as quickly. This was a violent act that was intended to be cruel and horrible. And why should it not affect the rest of their lives? It will affect the rest of the life of the girl who was beaten.

I heard about this before I left for class this morning. Absolutely unconscionable!

The fact that they are children aside, how can humans do these things to each other?

I don't think that trial as full adults is really the right answer, but it seems to me that the calculated nature of their crime is what makes it more severe than a simple case of kids getting into a fight. It is too bad that our criminal justice system has no intermediate level that doesn't "throw the book" at them like adults, but is harder than juvenile detention center.

Did you see the mother of one of the girls who was involved in the beating?? She thinks that if the girl who got beat up was going to write stuff about someone then she should be able to stand up and back it up...as if the beating was ok.

And some people should never have kids....she's a twit too.

We actually had something like this happen around where I live. About 12 boys beat up a kid here not too long ago. The kid was in pretty bad shape but most of the boys got off with a fine because well they are football players. Talk about sickening. One of the boys (star football player) got into another fight later on for just randomly hitting a 11 year old boy. Of course he didn't get into trouble for that either. Ever seen the movie Varisty Blues? That's where I live. Everything revolves around football. We breed players and they can do no wrong.

The issue isn't that beating but how it took place and the pre-planning that went into it. I teach at an RTC and we see fights almost daily. But they usually happen quickly and are over just as quickly. This was a violent act that was intended to be cruel and horrible. And why should it not affect the rest of their lives? It will affect the rest of the life of the girl who was beaten.

Isn't luring her by false pretense into a place fall under the definition of kidnapping?

-Feetie

My opinion wouldn't change just because the issue is up close and personal.



I don't know about you, but most model citizens were not so when they were sixteen. Hell, one of our presidential candidates was searching around for "blow" back at that age.

I feel the punishment should be the same as they did to her. They knew what they were doing. If they are let off easily, they'll grow into even bigger bitches than they are now...yes, they're teenage bitches.

I feel the punishment should be the same as they did to her. They knew what they were doing. If they are let off easily, they'll grow into even bigger bitches than they are now...yes, they're teenage bitches.

If they get off they will feel they won and what they did is the way to solve problems. How great is that!

-Feetie

I feel the punishment should be the same as they did to her. They knew what they were doing. If they are let off easily, they'll grow into even bigger bitches than they are now...yes, they're teenage bitches.


Amen!

:worship:

The issue isn't that beating but how it took place and the pre-planning that went into it. I teach at an RTC and we see fights almost daily. But they usually happen quickly and are over just as quickly.

Usually. There are a hell of a lot worse crimes committed by juveniles than beating someone up, even for 3 minutes or whatever it was....as "severe" as this beating was, there's not even any blood showing in the video.

Hell, I myself have been in fights where blood was drawn, and I wasn't even in the most misbehaved half of the population.

This was a violent act that was intended to be cruel and horrible. And why should it not affect the rest of their lives?.

Because 90% of the population does stupid things in high school - maybe not as bad, but this isn't the worst of the worst I tell ya.

It will affect the rest of the life of the girl who was beaten.

How so? Emotional distress? Welcome to high school.

Usually. There are a hell of a lot worse crimes committed by juveniles than beating someone up, even for 3 minutes or whatever it was....as "severe" as this beating was, there's not even any blood showing in the video..

So she knows how to cover her head up....good for her,probably saved her alot more injury...


How so? Emotional distress? Welcome to high school.
this girl tried to walk out the door and was stopped and was beaten more.... when that happened this turned into something much worse than a little afterschool scrap.

the fact this was done just to post something on youtube is even worse... it is not like it was over a boy,or something trival. this girl was beatdown for 'ratings'

this girl tried to walk out the door and was stopped and was beaten more.... when that happened this turned into something much worse than a little afterschool scrap.

I agree that that upgraded the seriousness of the beating, but the victim did not make the most convincing effort to get out either.

the fact this was done just to post something on youtube is even worse... it is not like it was over a boy,or something trival. this girl was beatdown for 'ratings'

The motive was not ratings. The motive was the victim was allegedly talking some sort of smack about the other girls - I can't help notice that we haven't heard exactly what the victim did to "deserve" the beating.

I don't know if the alleged defense is true or not, but I do know that if you talk smack about another kid behind his/her back, you can expect a confrontation when the other kid finds out.

Just to repeat, I'm not arguing that there was no wrongdoing; I'm arguing that adult felony punishment is not deserved.

My opinion wouldn't change just because the issue is up close and personal.No offense, but i find this hard to believe.



I don't know about you, but most model citizens were not so when they were sixteen. Hell, one of our presidential candidates was searching around for "blow" back at that age.I personally believe that laws for these "children" should be much tougher than they are. I dont care what your age, an assault is an assault. Lock em up and put it on their record. We the public should be forewarned of there past deeds.

http://www.wftv.com/news/15845521/detail.html

Okay, no doubt this is a crime (assault), but I'm not sure why they should be treated differently from other juvenile offenders. Kids beat each other up all of the time - if we tried all of them as adults, we would seriously be flooding the system.

Now, they're charging the kids with kidnapping, in addition to charging them as adults. I think that's seriously overboard.

They're sixteen - They should be punished, but I don't think this should ruin the rest of their lives.

This reminds me a bit of the Jena 6 case, but that was like a 6-on-1 beating (some of it while the kid was unconscious) and those kids got off much easier than what we're talking about here.

The fact that there's a video doesn't make the crime worse.


Leper,you're a lawyer or a police officer right?
You see all kinds of stuff then and I can understand where you are coming from with this.

But....hear me out on my views here. As a mother of an almost 13 year old,if this happened to my child,I'd be wanting the strongest punishment allowed,if that meant trying them as an adult,so be it. If this were reversed and my daughter was one of those doing the beating,I'd expect the strongest punishment to be handed down.

IMO taking stuff like this and only giving a slap on the wrist is a part of the problem with kids today,they have no respect for the law and wrong doing and feel that no matter what they do they aren't going to do any real time cause their asses are covered by them being a "kid". These "kids" knew what they were doing when they lured this girl into that house with the intent to harm her,they knew what they were doing when they beat her unconcious and then beat her again when she came around and they knew what they were doing when they prevented her from leaving.

First of all, the youngest girl arrested was fourteen, not sixteen. I'd consider that still a child by anyone's standards.

Second of all, since when is juvenile detention a "slap on the wrist"? I have friends who've been there, and I can tell you it isn't exactly a playground. It's a JAIL, just one that's populated by minors. If those girls went to juvie and ran into some of the tougher chicks in there they'd surely get what's coming to them.

All in all I think charging them as adults and sending them to jail for years would cause WAY more problems than it would solve. Such a conviction (as an "adult") would be on their records forever and severely restrict their ability to succeed later in life, making it FAR more likely that they will engage in more criminal acts. A 16 year old's irresponsible decisions should not be made to severely affect the rest of their life if it's not necessary to do so, especially because at age 16 one's brain (especially the "judgment center") isn't fully formed. So basically these young people made a bad decision, using undeveloped decision-making capacity, and you people want them to have a felony conviction on their record forever? There's a reason that we usually expunge juvenile records, and it's a good reason.

that's your opinion and I gave mine.....all I ask if for mine to be respected the way I am respecting everyone elses.


Maybe juvie is different where you have lived DF,but the few people I knew who were placed in it said it was like a country club and they were right back to being in trouble months down the road.

http://www.wftv.com/news/15845521/detail.html

Okay, no doubt this is a crime (assault), but I'm not sure why they should be treated differently from other juvenile offenders. Kids beat each other up all of the time - if we tried all of them as adults, we would seriously be flooding the system.

Now, they're charging the kids with kidnapping, in addition to charging them as adults. I think that's seriously overboard.

They're sixteen - They should be punished, but I don't think this should ruin the rest of their lives.

This reminds me a bit of the Jena 6 case, but that was like a 6-on-1 beating (some of it while the kid was unconscious) and those kids got off much easier than what we're talking about here.

The fact that there's a video doesn't make the crime worse.

Boy, you sure make it obvious that you are a liberal, Leper. Do the crime but don't do the time.

This wasn't two kids fighting after school. It was six people who lured a young girl into a house and visciously beat her for thirty minutes, not three as you stated. She has partially lost the sight of one eye and the hearing in one ear. Rather than being remorseful over what they had down the girls think it was funny.

It is attitudes like yours that are part of the problem. You seem to feel we should coddle people who commit crimes.

As for the kidnapping charge, that is the most serious and it should not be dropped. They dragged her into a car, drove her to another area and threatened to beat her even worse if she dared tell anyone what they had done. Their beating was premeditated and so was the kidnapping.

I really find it hard to believe that someone who is 29 years old still believes that 'talking smack' is worthy of being beaten by a bunch of people.

Frogger, what do you think of the points I brought up? You sure are adamant in saying that 16 year olds aren't capable of fully weighing the decision to have sex, get an abortion, etc. and yet you seem to believe that their judgment skills are on par with an adult's in this situation.

DF,

This was not a couple of kids who allowed childish emotions to cause them todo something wrong on the spur of the moment. This was a group of girls who lured another girl into a house and beat her for thirty minutes and then dragged her into a car and drove her to another site and warned her they would beat her worse if she dared tell anyone.

I have absolutely no sympathy for them. In my opinion they should be tried as adults and sent to prison.

If it was my daughter who had been beaten the only place they would be safe would be in prison.

Personally, I don't see the point of making a legal distinction between juveniles and adults if we try everyone who does something nasty as an adult anyway. I can see the point of looking at each person individually and deciding what their level of maturity is and using that as the basis for deciding whether or not to try as an adult. But no one wants to base it on maturity - everyone wants to base it on the level of the crime, which makes no sense.

And yes, if they beat the crap out of my daughter I'd want them tried as adults too, but that's why we don't let victims decide the punishment of their assailants.

Frogger, what do you think of the points I brought up? You sure are adamant in saying that 16 year olds aren't capable of fully weighing the decision to have sex, get an abortion, etc. and yet you seem to believe that their judgment skills are on par with an adult's in this situation.
they knew good & evil enough to try to hide their crimes by threating the victim with another beating.

Boy, you sure make it obvious that you are a liberal, Leper. Do the crime but don't do the time.

what the? Are you that into the whole lib/repub thing that you can't see past that. Not everything is a lib/conservative thing.

Not everything is lib/cons, but coddling criminals is.

they knew good & evil enough to try to hide their crimes by threating the victim with another beating.

ROFL! They recorded the crime! Do you really think they understood the consequences of their actions?

I can see the point of looking at each person individually and deciding what their level of maturity is and using that as the basis for deciding whether or not to try as an adult. But no one wants to base it on maturity - everyone wants to base it on the level of the crime, which makes no sense.
You're absolutely right.

they knew good & evil enough to try to hide their crimes by threating the victim with another beating.
I never said they didn't know the difference between right and wrong.

I never said they didn't know the difference between right and wrong.
that's the standard for the criminally insane, why not minors?

Those girls are considered mature enough and old enoughto get an abortion without notifying their parents. They should also be considered mature enough and old enough to be treated as adults when they commit a crime.

They will be tried as adults.

http://www.wftv.com/news/15845521/detail.html

As a parent it would take a lot of restraint not to mete out the same to those girls.

Those girls are considered mature enough and old enoughto get an abortion without notifying their parents. They should also be considered mature enough and old enough to be treated as adults when they commit a crime.

So you're basing your support on trying them as adults on a law that I highly suspect you don't agree with?

So you're basing your support on trying them as adults on a law that I highly suspect you don't agree with?
Frogger being snarky? :eek:

They will be tried as adults.

http://www.wftv.com/news/15845521/detail.html

As a parent it would take a lot of restraint not to mete out the same to those girls.

good!

So you're basing your support on trying them as adults on a law that I highly suspect you don't agree with?
I dont agree with them being able to make unguided decisions about abortion either. However, why pick and choose what judgements they are mature enough to make for themselves? If they can choose to abort a child, why the hell shouldnt they be mature enough to stand trial for their felonies?

IMO taking stuff like this and only giving a slap on the wrist is a part of the problem with kids today,they have no respect for the law and wrong doing and feel that no matter what they do they aren't going to do any real time cause their asses are covered by them being a "kid". These "kids" knew what they were doing when they lured this girl into that house with the intent to harm her,they knew what they were doing when they beat her unconcious and then beat her again when she came around and they knew what they were doing when they prevented her from leaving.


As DF said, I don't think juvenile detention is a slap on the wrist. There's a good reason we recognize juveniles as juveniles - their judgment just isn't quite there yet. As a mother of an almost 13 year old, I expect you have some firsthand understanding of that.

Second of all, since when is juvenile detention a "slap on the wrist"? I have friends who've been there, and I can tell you it isn't exactly a playground. It's a JAIL, just one that's populated by minors. If those girls went to juvie and ran into some of the tougher chicks in there they'd surely get what's coming to them.

All in all I think charging them as adults and sending them to jail for years would cause WAY more problems than it would solve. Such a conviction (as an "adult") would be on their records forever and severely restrict their ability to succeed later in life, making it FAR more likely that they will engage in more criminal acts. A 16 year old's irresponsible decisions should not be made to severely affect the rest of their life if it's not necessary to do so, especially because at age 16 one's brain (especially the "judgment center") isn't fully formed. So basically these young people made a bad decision, using undeveloped decision-making capacity, and you people want them to have a felony conviction on their record forever? There's a reason that we usually expunge juvenile records, and it's a good reason.

Exactly.

First of all, the youngest girl arrested was fourteen, not sixteen. I'd consider that still a child by anyone's standards. Im sorry, but actions define who you are, not a number. You're a good example of this.




Second of all, since when is juvenile detention a "slap on the wrist"? I have friends who've been there, and I can tell you it isn't exactly a playground. It's a JAIL, just one that's populated by minors. If those girls went to juvie and ran into some of the tougher chicks in there they'd surely get what's coming to them. My cousin spent about 3 years in juvie. All that did was spare him 3 years in the state pen, where he's been since he was 19, for a crime he should never had the chance to commit in the first place.




All in all I think charging them as adults and sending them to jail for years would cause WAY more problems than it would solve. Such a conviction (as an "adult") would be on their records forever and severely restrict their ability to succeed later in life, making it FAR more likely that they will engage in more criminal acts. A 16 year old's irresponsible decisions should not be made to severely affect the rest of their life if it's not necessary to do so, especially because at age 16 one's brain (especially the "judgment center") isn't fully formed. So basically these young people made a bad decision, using undeveloped decision-making capacity, and you people want them to have a felony conviction on their record forever? There's a reason that we usually expunge juvenile records, and it's a good reason.Not every crime should be charged as an adult. However, if the "bad decision" changes the victims life forever, why shouldnt the criminals life be affected forever also?

Boy, you sure make it obvious that you are a liberal, Leper. Do the crime but don't do the time.

Omg, Frogger, I'm not a L-I-B-E-R-A-L!!!!

I just think this country is too quick to throw people in jail and throw away the key. This is why we have the highest jail population in the country.

The conservative side of reducing the prison population is that it saves money and helps the economy.



This wasn't two kids fighting after school. It was six people who lured a young girl into a house and visciously beat her for thirty minutes, not three as you stated.

Have you seen the video? All I saw was two girls beat her, separately I might add. And for 30 minutes? First I heard of that time frame...the video is about 3 minutes - granted there may be and probably is some stuff off video, but those girls didn't seem worn out in the video - the victim looked very alert and defensive to me.

She has partially lost the sight of one eye and the hearing in one ear.

If that's true, I believe it deserves a harsher sentence as well - I still wouldn't advocate trying them as adults, however.

From seeing the victim's condition in the video, I strongly suspect the claim of lost ears and lost vision are untrue or highly exagerrated.

Rather than being remorseful over what they had down the girls think it was funny.

I don't think it was funny. I'm not sure how you got that impression.

It is attitudes like yours that are part of the problem. You seem to feel we should coddle people who commit crimes.

I'm sorry, but I don't think criminals should be treated unequally just because there is a video posted in the media.

Furthermore, the degree of "coddling" depends on the crime - I believe serious crimes don't get the attention they deserve, and that's largely because we divert so much of our resources to less serious criminals, like these young girls.

As for the kidnapping charge, that is the most serious and it should not be dropped. They dragged her into a car, drove her to another area and threatened to beat her even worse if she dared tell anyone what they had done. Their beating was premeditated and so was the kidnapping.

If that's true, that is serious - but that's the first I'm hearing of this allegation.

I really find it hard to believe that someone who is 29 years old still believes that 'talking smack' is worthy of being beaten by a bunch of people.

That wasn't what I said - I'm saying that juvenile beatings occur over "talking smack" ALL of the time. I still think their actions are criminal.

Just out of curiosity, would you advocate any different treatment if you found out the girls in question had ED?

What what if it was your daughter who did the crime? You can't expect different treatment depending on whether your daughter is the victim or the accused.





As DF said, I don't think juvenile detention is a slap on the wrist. There's a good reason we recognize juveniles as juveniles - their judgment just isn't quite there yet. As a mother of an almost 13 year old, I expect you have some firsthand understanding of that.



Did you miss or just choose to ignore this part of my post:

If this were reversed and my daughter was one of those doing the beating,I'd expect the strongest punishment to be handed down.

And I as said,those I have known that went to Juvenile Detention called it a freaking country club where they sat around and did nothing but wait to get out and cause more trouble. To them,it was a slap on the wrist.

My daughter honestly has a better sense of judgement than most other 13 year olds,but then again,she wasn't brought up a spoiled cheerleader snot who thinks because someone talked some crap about her that gives her a reason beat them unconcious. She's not perfect,but I think I can be assured you won't be seeing her mug shot on the evening news as the ringleader of a group who beat someone.

Did you miss or just choose to ignore this part of my post:


Sorry bout that, I overlooked that part of your response. Consider it deleted. I guess I have trouble believing a mother wouldn't want any mercy for her teenage daughter if she committed a crime.

Sorry bout that, I overlooked that part of your response. Consider it deleted.


It's all good Leper :thumbs:

Sorry bout that, I overlooked that part of your response. Consider it deleted. I guess I have trouble believing a mother wouldn't want any mercy for her teenage daughter if she committed a crime.


We aren't talking about her daughter smacking another kid on the playground. I agree with Michelle. I would want my child punished too. Otherwise what do they learn from this??? In fact I could see these dumb kids going around bragging about how they didn't have to do any real time for this anyway. I wonder how many of them are sorry for what they did...I'm sure they are sorry they are facing criminal charges.

As DF said, I don't think juvenile detention is a slap on the wrist. There's a good reason we recognize juveniles as juveniles - their judgment just isn't quite there yet. As a mother of an almost 13 year old, I expect you have some firsthand understanding of that.

I teach at an RTC. I have worked with this population for 10 years. And trust me 99% of them would tell you if they had had stronger punishments for the things they did they would have not kept down that path. They crave disipline and consequences. And when they see those limits being stretched they lose faith in the system and then they have no morals at all.


-Feets

We aren't talking about her daughter smacking another kid on the playground. I agree with Michelle. I would want my child punished too. Otherwise what do they learn from this??? In fact I could see these dumb kids going around bragging about how they didn't have to do any real time for this anyway. I wonder how many of them are sorry for what they did...I'm sure they are sorry they are facing criminal charges.

I can tell you it is a mind set after a while that it is okay to break the law as long as you don't get caught or don't have to do real time. Most who commit crimes like this are sorry for getting caught not for the act itself.


-Feetie

So you're basing your support on trying them as adults on a law that I highly suspect you don't agree with?

Lionel,

You're either an adult or you're a child. You don't get to pick and choose and say, "I'm anj adult when I want to be and a child when I want to be." The girls involved are considered to have the mental and emotional capacity to decide to get an abortion, something that is an extremely important decision. If they have the mental and emotional capacity to make that decision they also have the mental and emotional capacity to know that what they were doing was wrong.

I still say that a felony conviction on these girls' permanent records would make them far less able to lead a successful life and make an honest living.... Felons continue to be felons because their convictions impede their ability to get a job or a scholarship for school, among other things.

Here's something I want to know. How long would they be put in jail for with the assault and kidnapping charges? Those are very serious charges, and I think that the standard sentences for adults in those situations usually involve at least a decade in jail. Doesn't that sound like a little too much? Putting a 14 year old in jail for 10 years doesn't just affect their life; I would say it totally ruins it. You might as well guarantee that these girls will be lifelong criminals and failures.

EDIT: According to the article that Waldo posted, the kidnapping charge could result in a penalty of life in prison since they are being charged as adults. Is that really justified???

Lionel,

You're either an adult or you're a child. You don't get to pick and choose and say, "I'm anj adult when I want to be and a child when I want to be." The girls involved are considered to have the mental and emotional capacity to decide to get an abortion, something that is an extremely important decision. If they have the mental and emotional capacity to make that decision they also have the mental and emotional capacity to know that what they were doing was wrong.
Frogger, 14 year olds are not allowed to get an abortion without parental permission in any state. One of the girls is 14. You're saying that she should be charged as adult because the other girls are old enough to get an abortion?

Just out of curiosity, would you advocate any different treatment if you found out the girls in question had ED?

Probably under the concept of diminished capacity. Courts take the mental and/or emotional stability of perpetrators into consideration every day.

These young men and women are not suffering from diminished capacity. They are simply young men and women who exhibited animalistic behavior for which they should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. I don't think they should get life in prison but I would be in full agreement of a sentence of at least five years for each of them, inluding the lookouts.

As I pointed out in another thread (http://www.allforums.net/showpost.php?p=471077&postcount=63), this kind of thing is happening all the time anymore.
People used to claim our kids morals were destroyed when they listened to rock and roll music or danced provocatively, but these days kids are beating each other senseless and sometimes murdering people in cold blood.

Frogger, 14 year olds are not allowed to get an abortion without parental permission in any state. One of the girls is 14. You're saying that she should be charged as adult because the other girls are old enough to get an abortion?

I didn't get that out of his post.

I'm guessing he was talking about the girls who were 16.

I just think this country is too quick to throw people in jail and throw away the key. This is why we have the highest jail population in the country.


Highest in the world, actually.
1 out of every 100 Americans is in our prison system (which is increasingly becoming privatized which means it is getting more and more expensive)

[/B]

I didn't get that out of his post.

I'm guessing he was talking about the girls who were 16.
Well he said he thinks they should ALL be charged as adults. If he thinks the 14 year old should get more leniency than the older ones, he hasn't said so.

dharmabum,

I would prefer these people were put in prison and people imprisoned for minor drug offenses were released.

I still say that a felony conviction on these girls' permanent records would make them far less able to lead a successful life and make an honest living.... Felons continue to be felons because their convictions impede their ability to get a job or a scholarship for school, among other things.

I'm not sure how I feel about the "should they be tried as adults" issue, but you seem to be advocating prison terms based on how badly time behind bars might mess up someone's future.

I'm sorry, but that's crazy.

I'm not sure how I feel about the "should they be tried as adults" issue, but you seem to be advocating prison terms based on how badly time behind bars might mess up someone's future.
The future of someone who isn't physically capable of making an informed decision and who hasn't even lived 1/4 of their life.

I don't think it's crazy to think that a 16 year old shouldn't get life in prison for beating someone up.

The future of someone who isn't physically capable of making an informed decision

Do you honestly mean to say that the typical 16-year-old is too immature/ignorant/uninformed/uneducated/immoral/psychotic to know that ganging up with friends and beating the crap out of an unarmed person without provocation is wrong and bad and most likely illegal? You really think they figure such activities are A-OK? Really?

and who hasn't even lived 1/4 of their life.

Granted, it's not an epidemic, but people die before they reach the age of 64 all the time. Is there something that makes these girls so special that they should be guaranteed not only life, but a jail-free life untll their 64th birthdays?

How permanetly damaged is this girl who got beaten? She hasn't the choice to fix her pains. Or if she does she has to pay for them. So why isn't anyone worried about how her life is going to be affected? She will have to live with this horrible event her entire life. Yet we are worried cause prison will mess them up? And as far as convictions impeding the advancement of prisoners that is untrue their choices and actions do that. There are many who pay for their crime and move on. Most however continue the behavior even in prison.

[QUOTE=F. de Marzipan]Do you honestly mean to say that the typical 16-year-old is too immature/ignorant/uninformed/uneducated/immoral/psychotic to know that ganging up with friends and beating the crap out of an unarmed person without provocation is wrong and bad and most likely illegal? You really think they figure such activities are A-OK? Really?

Trust me they understand the deed. They know what they did was wrong! If they can commit the crime they need to accept the punishment!

The future of someone who isn't physically capable of making an informed decision and who hasn't even lived 1/4 of their life.

I don't think it's crazy to think that a 16 year old shouldn't get life in prison for beating someone up.

DF - I'm just curious. Would you HONESTLY feel different about this if you had been the girl who was beat up so bad?

DF - I'm just curious. Would you HONESTLY feel different about this if you had been the girl who was beat up so bad?
Yes. I would say that those girls would be fine going to juvie for 5 years instead of facing a life sentence in prison.

For the record, I'm not worried that prison would "mess them up". I'm worried that prison would turn them into career criminals at the expense of society (not talking about monetary expense). It's not about the girls themselves.

Do you honestly mean to say that the typical 16-year-old is too immature/ignorant/uninformed/uneducated/immoral/psychotic to know that ganging up with friends and beating the crap out of an unarmed person without provocation is wrong and bad and most likely illegal? You really think they figure such activities are A-OK? Really?
The judgment center of a 16 year old's brain is not fully developed. That's just the facts. That doesn't mean they don't know the difference between right and wrong. (I never said that at all, so I have no clue where you got that from.) It means that they are less capable than an adult of weighing the consequences of their actions. Teenagers do a LOT of stupid things, things that they definitely know are wrong (I know I certainly have), and they get caught all the time. What's their explanation? "I wasn't thinking about what would happen."

Teenagers do a LOT of stupid things, things that they definitely know are wrong (I know I certainly have), and they get caught all the time. What's their explanation? "I wasn't thinking about what would happen."

You can say the same thing about adults.

You can say the same thing about adults.
Strangely enough, you picked the part of my post that I added as an afterthought. How about actually addressing my point?

Hey, it was part of your argument. I merely responded.

The judgment center of a 16 year old's brain is not fully developed. That's just the facts. That doesn't mean they don't know the difference between right and wrong. (I never said that at all, so I have no clue where you got that from.) It means that they are less capable than an adult of weighing the consequences of their actions.

You're going to have a hell of a hard time convincing me that, at 16, you would have considered bringing your friends along to beat the crap out of another girl because you had no idea that there would be serious consequences to your actions.

I sure as hell knew the consequences of MY actions at the age of 16. I knew that ditching class for whatever reason meant that I'd have some 'splainin' to do and some punishment to endure. I knew that lying to my parents was sure to get me a swat. I knew that if I didn't show up for work, I'd be fired. I knew that if I stole something from a store, I could be busted for shoplifting. I knew that taking a punch at someone would get my ass in a crack, big time. I knew that bringing a weapon to school to attack someone I was pissed off at would only hurt me in the long run. None of this is rocket science, and while kids these days are certainly less mature and much more self-absorbed than they were when I grew up, I cannot accept that the typical 16-year-old is so blisteringly ignorant as to believe that beating the crap out of someone would not have serious consequences.

Anyone else here who, at the age of 16, would have thought otherwise? Anyone?

Yes. I would say that those girls would be fine going to juvie for 5 years instead of facing a life sentence in prison.

For the record, I'm not worried that prison would "mess them up". I'm worried that prison would turn them into career criminals at the expense of society (not talking about monetary expense). It's not about the girls themselves.


DF,

Being sentto prison messes up almost everyone no matter their age. If your argument is that we shouldn't send them to jail because it might mess up their lives the same argument holds for adults as well as young adults.

Do you think we should not send forty year olds to prison because it might mess up their lives?

How about thirty year olds, twenty year olds, eighteen year olds? Just where do you draw the line?

Being sentto prison messes up almost everyone no matter their age. If your argument is that we shouldn't send them to jail because it might mess up their lives the same argument holds for adults as well as young adults.
Oh come on, Frogger. This is FROM THE POST YOU QUOTED:

"I'm not worried that prison would 'mess them up'"

EDIT: Although if they get the life sentence then that would certainly put an end to my worries. So to prevent the girls from becoming career criminals we should just put them in jail for the rest of their lives. Sound good to you guys?

I'd like to bring up this post again (I've put the most important part in bold):

Personally, I don't see the point of making a legal distinction between juveniles and adults if we try everyone who does something nasty as an adult anyway. I can see the point of looking at each person individually and deciding what their level of maturity is and using that as the basis for deciding whether or not to try as an adult. But no one wants to base it on maturity - everyone wants to base it on the level of the crime, which makes no sense.

With that in mind, I have some questions for those of you who want the girls tried as adults.

Do you think that all 16 year olds should be tried as adults? If not, why just these girls?

Does it really make sense to base that on the nature of the crime? If so, would you want an 8 year old who murdered another 8 year old tried as an adult? How about a 10 year old? A 12 year old?
(Keep in mind that murder is an even more serious crime than assault, and science has proven that children know the difference between right and wrong by age 7.)

Yes. I would say that those girls would be fine going to juvie for 5 years instead of facing a life sentence in prison.

For the record, I'm not worried that prison would "mess them up". I'm worried that prison would turn them into career criminals at the expense of society (not talking about monetary expense). It's not about the girls themselves.


These girls are already messed up/criminals (assault is a criminal offense in this country) and jail time is exactly what they deserve, big time. The girl they beat has permanent eye and hearing injuries! What would it take for you to lock them up? Death?

Prison does not make them career criminals by the way. They get an education (at top colleges), etc., at the cost of the taxpayer. What they do with their time while there is up to them. They get more opportunities to sort themselves out, at no cost, more then most folks who are far worse off then them get from the taxpayer.

Oh come on, Frogger. This is FROM THE POST YOU QUOTED:

"I'm not worried that prison would 'mess them up'"

EDIT: Although if they get the life sentence then that would certainly put an end to my worries. So to prevent the girls from becoming career criminals we should just put them in jail for the rest of their lives. Sound good to you guys?


If you had bothered to read my posts you would have read where I said I don't want them to receive a life sentence. I said I thought five years would be sufficient.

My opinion wouldn't change just because the issue is up close and personal.
No, but I'd be willing to bet your legal tactics would. Counselor. :D

How about thirty year olds, twenty year olds, eighteen year olds? Just where do you draw the line?

Eighteen works for me. A person legally becomes an adult at that age, and we should treat them as juveniles in our justice system until they hit eighteen.

Lionel was right. We try children at progressively younger and younger ages based on the level of outrage their crime generates. That's no way to dispense impartial justice.

Eighteen works for me. A person legally becomes an adult at that age, and we should treat them as juveniles in our justice system until they hit eighteen.

Lionel was right. We try children at progressively younger and younger ages based on the level of outrage their crime generates. That's no way to dispense impartial justice.

IF you do not know right from wrong at the age of 7 you are screwed! This is fact.

By 16 you are LEGALLY able to leave school w/out parents permission, have an abortion, drive, etc., in this country. By 18 you are JAIL MATERIAL as far as I am concerned.

Perhaps they are "trying children at progressively younger and younger ages..." because they are doing adult crimes!

Good grief! In the old days you would have been hung by the neck for this sort of behavior... now we make excuses for them!

Enough. These girls had no compassion, no remorse, etc, for the damage they did to this girl. All they cared about was a movie! These girls are lost causes... if that it all it takes for them to permanently maim another!

IF you do not know right from wrong at the age of 7 you are screwed! This is fact.

By 16 you are LEGALLY able to leave school w/out parents permission, have an abortion, drive, etc., in this country. By 18 you are JAIL MATERIAL as far as I am concerned.

Perhaps they are "trying children at progressively younger and younger ages..." because they are doing adult crimes!

Good grief! In the old days you would have been hung by the neck for this sort of behavior... now we make excuses for them!

Enough. These girls had no compassion, no remorse, etc, for the damage they did to this girl. All they cared about was a movie! These girls are lost causes... if that it all it takes for them to permanently maim another!

Thank you for demonstrating the outrage and anger I was referring to in my post. I understand your outrage, but outrage doesn't have a place in the dispensation of impartial justice. If you're going to tread that path, why not just get a rope?

If you had bothered to read my posts you would have read where I said I don't want them to receive a life sentence. I said I thought five years would be sufficient.
I neither said nor implied that you wanted them to receive a life sentence. I found out from waldo's link that if convicted they could face one. Nothing to do with you at all.

These girls are already messed up/criminals (assault is a criminal offense in this country) and jail time is exactly what they deserve, big time. The girl they beat has permanent eye and hearing injuries! What would it take for you to lock them up? Death?
I do want to lock them up, in a juvenile prison.

Would you care to answer the questions I put forth in this post?:

Do you think that all 16 year olds should be tried as adults? If not, why just these girls?

Does it really make sense to base that on the nature of the crime? If so, would you want an 8 year old who murdered another 8 year old tried as an adult? How about a 10 year old? A 12 year old?
(Keep in mind that murder is an even more serious crime than assault, and science has proven that children know the difference between right and wrong by age 7.)

Since you bring up the fact that 7 year olds know the difference between right and wrong, if a 7 year old commits murder should they be tried as an adult and locked up in an adult prison too?

Thank you for demonstrating the outrage and anger I was referring to in my post. I understand your outrage, but outrage doesn't have a place in the dispensation of impartial justice. If you're going to tread that path, why not just get a rope?

Well,I tend to agree with that poster.
I knew full well in grade school,by the 3rd grade what right and wrong
was.And,by golly,thankfully everyone but the few Bullies and
possible future preverts {hard to predict who'll manifest that in later
life}. I've never bought into this somewhat nouveau kitsch notion
that Kids will just be kids and really don't know right from wrong.
If that was SO,then there would Literally be No Reason for
The Cub Scouts or Brownies and honor or merit badges.
Yer just so pathetically full of Touchy Feely bullcrap,you proilly
don't comprehend to this day,what's actually good,fair and right.

I disagree with what Lionel posted. Whether a person is tried as an adult or not DOES depend on the severity of the crime. I would not try a 16 year old as an adult if he/she stole a bicycle but I would sure as hell try that person as an adult if he/she committed murder or caused serious bodily injury to another person, especially if the injury was caused in concert with others and with premeditation.

The statement by the father of one of the suspects (in bold type) show at least part of the problem with these young people. The father feels the viscious beating of someone is a molehill.


BARTOW, Fla. -- On their own videotape, six Polk County girls laughed in another girl's face as they beat her so badly she was hospitalized. Friday in court, they hung their heads in shame.

Not only will the girls be tried as adults for their videotaped attack, they'll also have a hard time getting out of jail. The judge made a pretty strong statement to the kids Friday. Judge Angela Cowden doubled the normal bond for all eight teens.

Each is now held on anywhere from $31,000 to $37,000 for kidnapping and battery and Friday many of their parents told Eyewitness News they can't afford to get their kids out.

More than one parent came out of the Polk County courtroom sobbing. People like Mary Nichols learned getting her 17-year-old granddaughter Mercades out of jail would now take serious money.

"I don't have the money to bond her out," Nichols said.

The six teenage girls and two boys are accused of orchestrating a videotaped beating of 16-year-old Victoria Lindsay last month. No, they appeared by video in court where a judge decided they should all be held on more than $30,000 bond for battery and kidnapping charges that could carry a maximum life sentence.

Three of the girls are also accused of tampering with a witness, including 17-year-old Brittini Hardcastle, who prosecutors described as one of the most active participants in the beating. Her mother didn't want to talk about it.

"We have death threats on us, okay? Leave us alone," she said.

The victim's parents watched intently in court, but said nothing after it was over.

Eighteen-year-old Stephen Schumaker's father turned his anger to Polk County Sheriff Grady Judd, who decided to release the video and is now under a gag order by the court.
"Grady Judd, our great sheriff, he made a mountain out of a molehill with all these trumped up charges for these kids," he said.

The judge set strict rules if any of the teens comes up with the money to get out of jail. They cannot return to Mulberry High School, use any Internet sites like MySpace or YouTube and there's a strict curfew that essentially keeps them under house arrest.

http://www.wftv.com/news/15858324/detail.html

You're either an adult or you're a child. You don't get to pick and choose and say, "I'm anj adult when I want to be and a child when I want to be." The girls involved are considered to have the mental and emotional capacity to decide to get an abortion, something that is an extremely important decision. If they have the mental and emotional capacity to make that decision they also have the mental and emotional capacity to know that what they were doing was wrong.

The girls weren't the ones that decided to give themselves the ability to get an abortion - that was a group of legislators. It's not the girls' fault legislators create inconsistencies in the law. Now if one of the girls actual had an abortion I think you'd have an excellent argument that she was in fact mature enough to be tried as an adult.

I disagree with what Lionel posted. Whether a person is tried as an adult or not DOES depend on the severity of the crime. I would not try a 16 year old as an adult if he/she stole a bicycle but I would sure as hell try that person as an adult if he/she committed murder or caused serious bodily injury to another person, especially if the injury was caused in concert with others and with premeditation.

You either have the maturity to fully grasp what you're doing or you don't. I don't see how your maturity varies according to how severe the crime you're committing is. And just to be clear, I'm not saying they shouldn't be tried as adults, I'm saying no one here is in a position to judge whether they are or not.

Hey Leper, you're the criminal defense guy - does the prosecution have to prove some level of mental capacity to prosecute a minor as an adult, or is it really completely up the prosecutor and the judge has no say (outside of any adjustments he might make at sentencing)? Can you tell I didn't take crim pro?

The statement by the father of one of the suspects (in bold type) show at least part of the problem with these young people. The father feels the viscious beating of someone is a molehill.


BARTOW, Fla. -- On their own videotape, six Polk County girls laughed in another girl's face as they beat her so badly she was hospitalized. Friday in court, they hung their heads in shame.

Not only will the girls be tried as adults for their videotaped attack, they'll also have a hard time getting out of jail. The judge made a pretty strong statement to the kids Friday. Judge Angela Cowden doubled the normal bond for all eight teens.

Each is now held on anywhere from $31,000 to $37,000 for kidnapping and battery and Friday many of their parents told Eyewitness News they can't afford to get their kids out.

More than one parent came out of the Polk County courtroom sobbing. People like Mary Nichols learned getting her 17-year-old granddaughter Mercades out of jail would now take serious money.

"I don't have the money to bond her out," Nichols said.

The six teenage girls and two boys are accused of orchestrating a videotaped beating of 16-year-old Victoria Lindsay last month. No, they appeared by video in court where a judge decided they should all be held on more than $30,000 bond for battery and kidnapping charges that could carry a maximum life sentence.

Three of the girls are also accused of tampering with a witness, including 17-year-old Brittini Hardcastle, who prosecutors described as one of the most active participants in the beating. Her mother didn't want to talk about it.

"We have death threats on us, okay? Leave us alone," she said.

The victim's parents watched intently in court, but said nothing after it was over.

Eighteen-year-old Stephen Schumaker's father turned his anger to Polk County Sheriff Grady Judd, who decided to release the video and is now under a gag order by the court.
"Grady Judd, our great sheriff, he made a mountain out of a molehill with all these trumped up charges for these kids," he said.

The judge set strict rules if any of the teens comes up with the money to get out of jail. They cannot return to Mulberry High School, use any Internet sites like MySpace or YouTube and there's a strict curfew that essentially keeps them under house arrest.

http://www.wftv.com/news/15858324/detail.html

As the pretty Jeanine Pirro,Former Westchester Co. Judge and also
D.A. who unsuccessfully made a run for Senate against Hillary,
stated,just this Morn.In view of the public good,she believed maybe
3 or 4 years for the Girl or girls directly shown pummeling with
punches.The victim was punched for more than 30 minutes.
The callous and cavalier nature of the beatings and words
uttered has to be extenuating.This was a pre-meditated act of
beating.We're not talkin a few random punches.I'd say,make her
stay in Adult prison,a month for every punch landed.

I disagree with what Lionel posted. Whether a person is tried as an adult or not DOES depend on the severity of the crime. I would not try a 16 year old as an adult if he/she stole a bicycle but I would sure as hell try that person as an adult if he/she committed murder or caused serious bodily injury to another person, especially if the injury was caused in concert with others and with premeditation.
So do you or do you not believe that a 10 year old who kills someone should be tried as an adult?

So do you or do you not believe that a 10 year old who kills someone should be tried as an adult?


There was a case out here in Detroit in the early '90's about an 11 year old who murdered someone and they did try him as an adult. I'll try to find the story and post a link. The kid was sent to a juvenile detention center then when he turned 18 was sent to an adult prison.


I am wondering why these kids are charged with stuff that usually only carries maybe a 20 year sentence and are being told they could get life? Sounds like that county wants to make an example out of them. Even though I do believe they are old enough to face these charges I do not think life in prison is the answer,nor do I believe a cushy detention is the answer. Jail time,yes,but not life for something that if an adult did this,they'd get 20 years max.

So do you or do you not believe that a 10 year old who kills someone should be tried as an adult?

Now you are just getting silly, DF. We are not talking about a ten year old. Why not ask if a five year old should or should not be tried as an adult.


Lionel,

You posted that none of us is qualified to decide whether the people in question should be tried as an adult or minor. Fine, using that criterium none of is qualified to decide most of the issues we discuss. That doesn't stop us, or you from discussing them though. Besides, it wasn't any of us but the judge, a person who is qualified to make that determination who decided they should be tried as adults.

Thank you for demonstrating the outrage and anger I was referring to in my post. I understand your outrage, but outrage doesn't have a place in the dispensation of impartial justice. If you're going to tread that path, why not just get a rope?


Who in their right mind would not be outraged or angered over what these girls did to that other girl? If the victim was your daughter, grand daughter, whatever, would you be happy with trying them as juvienals? So easy to sit on the sidelines and makes the criminals the victims when the real victim is just a face in the news.

They will get impartial justice when they go to trial. They will be judged by an impartial jury of their peers just like any other criminal.

By the way, 18 is way too old these days to be considered an adult. At 16 they have more rights then the parents who are responsible for them by law. Time to make 16 the legal adult age.

There was a case out here in Detroit in the early '90's about an 11 year old who murdered someone and they did try him as an adult. I'll try to find the story and post a link. The kid was sent to a juvenile detention center then when he turned 18 was sent to an adult prison.
That sounds fine to me. At least they didn't put him in with the adults right away. But if these kids were charged as adults would they be put in juvie first or sent straight to an adult prison?


I am wondering why these kids are charged with stuff that usually only carries maybe a 20 year sentence and are being told they could get life? Sounds like that county wants to make an example out of them. Even though I do believe they are old enough to face these charges I do not think life in prison is the answer,nor do I believe a cushy detention is the answer. Jail time,yes,but not life for something that if an adult did this,they'd get 20 years max.
Kidnapping always carries a possible life sentence, especially combined with other crimes (e.g. assault). Of course, most kidnappers do not get life, and I highly doubt that these girls will either. Do you think they should get 20 years? I'm thinking 10 max.

Now you are just getting silly, DF. We are not talking about a ten year old. Why not ask if a five year old should or should not be tried as an adult.
Well you've said these things:
1. You see no problem with determining adult vs. juvenile sentencing based on the severity of the crime rather than the maturity of the criminal.
2. These girls are old enough to know right from wrong.

Since technically a child knows right from wrong at age 7, a 10 year old committing murder should be charged as an adult based on your opinions. As Michelle already pointed out, an 11 year old has been charged as an adult in the past. Would you have said this was wrong?

Well you've said these things:
1. You see no problem with determining adult vs. juvenile sentencing based on the severity of the crime rather than the maturity of the criminal.
2. These girls are old enough to know right from wrong.

Since technically a child knows right from wrong at age 7, a 10 year old committing murder should be charged as an adult based on your opinions. As Michelle already pointed out, an 11 year old has been charged as an adult in the past. Would you have said this was wrong?

I said that punishment should be based on the severity of the crime and that there is a greater likelihood they will be sentenced as adults rather than as minors if the crime is severe. Do you really think a ten year old who runs out of an ice cream shop without paying for his double dip cone will be tried as an adult?

there have been cases in which young people, ages eleven, twelve or so have been tried as adults because of the severity of the crime(s) they committed, almost always crimes resulting in the death of someone.

In 1999, twelve year old, Lionel Tate beat a six year old girl to death. He weighed 170 pounds and tiffany Eunick weighed 48 pounds. When her body was examined she was found to have 35i njuries, including a ruptured spleen, lacerations, and damage to her rib cage, a fractured skull, brain contusions, a partially detached liver and bruises all over her body.

Lionel Tate was not some poor, little boy who made a mistake. He had an 8 year history of bad behavior, including fighting, assault, lying, stealing and fifteen suspensions from school.

Lionel Tate was tried for felony murder with aggravated child abuse. He was allowed to plead to a lesser charge but chose to plead innocent. when he was 14 he bacame the youngest person in American history to be sentenced to life in prison without parole for first degree murder.

He served three years in a juvenile facility (a fact that shows that even if the girls and the two lookouts are tried as adults they need not be sent to an adult prison until they are older). His conviction was thrown out on a technicality in 2003.

So, did Lionel Tate learn his lesson when he was the recipient of leniency from a liberal judiciary? No.

He was releaseds from prison just before his 17th birthday with 10 years probation, a year of house arrest, and was required to wear an electronic monitoring device. Tate took culinary arts classes after his release



Tate returned to his old neighborhood and soon stopped keeping contact with his support groups.

In 2004 he was found carrying a knife and his probation was extended. He waswarned that another violation would result in his being sent back to jail.

In 2005, Tate was charged with one count of armed burglary with battery, armed robbery and violation of probation, in Broward County.

He went to a young neighbor's house and used his phone to order four pizzas. When the delivery man came to the door Tate pointed a 38 calibre pistol at him.

Tate is now back in prison where he belongs.

Wow. We're lucky he didn't kill anyone else while he was out of jail.

Then, prison doesn't exactly teach you how to function in society, either. I'm not surprised he went back to a life of crime. But what to do? Lock them up and throw away the key? Put a child in jail during his formative years, and that's all he'll know. What's he going to do once he gets out? Probably get in with the same crowd he rolled with in jail.