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LiquidFork
03-30-2008, 01:34 AM
5 Years Later: Pundits Who Were Wrong on Iraq Are Silent

To choose just one example: David Brooks. Exactly five years ago, on the verge of war, he even attacked his current employer, The New York Times, for calling for "still more discussion" before attacking Iraq.

(March 25, 2008) -- Given the current tragedy in Iraq--hell, given the past five years--you would think the many pundits who agitated for an attack on that country, largely on false pretenses, would have take the opportunity of the arrival of the fifth anniversary of the war (or the 4000 dead milestone) to drop to their knees, at least in print, and beg the American public for forgiveness.

With more than 60 percent of their fellow Americans now calling the war a "mistake" and agitating for troop withdrawals--and the president's approval rating still heading south, thanks to their war--it would seem to be the right thing to do. We won't even mention the maiming of more than 20,000 young Americans and tens of thousands of Iraqis.

You can probably name your favorite candidate. Let's take David Brooks of The New York Times, for example, and what he wrote exactly five years ago. He hasn't bothered to revisit his errors in judgement lately. At least Richard Cohen, another favorite whipping boy of antiwar critics, has accepted responsibility for some of his lapses.


Brooks is among those who have long argued that they actually got the war right, but Donald Rumsfeld made it wrong. In other words, war good, Rummy bad. He has emphasized that he and many of his fellow pundits had it right at the time in urging more boots on the ground. They were "prescient," he relates. But Rumsfeld and his crowd "got things wrong, and the pundits often got things right."

He never cites any of his own views at the time, obviously hoping that readers will place him among those pundits that "got things right." And also: please forget that he was a strong supporter of the invasion to start with.

In fact, he bears special blame -- or shame, if you will -- not only for his writing, but for serving as senior editor of the most influential (inside the White House) pro-war publication, The Weekly Standard, headed by Bill Kristol, who has been even more consistently wrong on the war, yet rewarded with a prestigious New York Times slot.

Come to think of it, Brooks got the same reward -- two for the price of two!

Brooks may want you to forget what he wrote five years ago, but here's a trip down memory lane with Our Mr. Brooks.

From his column in The Weekly Standard, March 10, 2003:

"The American commentariat is gravely concerned. Over the past week, George W. Bush has shown a disturbing tendency not to waffle when it comes to Iraq. There has been an appalling clarity and coherence to his position. There has been a reckless tendency not to be murky, hesitant, or evasive. Naturally, questions are being raised about President Bush's leadership skills.

"Meanwhile, among the smart set, Hamlet-like indecision has become the intellectual fashion. The liberal columnist E. J. Dionne wrote in The Washington Post that he is uncomfortable with the pro- and anti-war camps. He praised the doubters and raised his colors on behalf of 'heroic ambivalence.' The New York Times, venturing deep into the territory of self-parody, ran a full-page editorial calling for 'still more discussion' on whether or not to go to war.

"In certain circles, it is not only important what opinion you hold, but how you hold it. It is important to be seen dancing with complexity, sliding among shades of gray. Any poor rube can come to a simple conclusion--that President Saddam Hussein is a menace who must be disarmed--but the refined ratiocinators want to be seen luxuriating amid the difficulties, donning the jewels of nuance, even to the point of self-paralysis.

"But those who actually have to lead and protect, and actually have to build one step on another, have to bring some questions to a close. Bush gave Saddam time to disarm. Saddam did not. Hence, the issue of whether to disarm him forcibly is settled. The French and the Germans and the domestic critics may keep debating, which is their luxury, but the people who actually make the decisions have moved on to more practical concerns. . . ."

From his Weekly Standard column two weeks later:

"The president has remained resolute. Momentum to liberate Iraq continues to build. The situation has clarified, and history will allow clear judgments about which leaders and which institutions were up to the challenge posed by Saddam and which were not.

"Over the past 12 years the United States has sought to disarm or depose Saddam--more forcefully since September 11 than before. Throughout that time, France and Russia have sought to undermine sanctions and fend off the ousting of Saddam. They opposed Clinton's efforts to bomb Saddam, just as they oppose Bush's push for regime change. Through the fog and verbiage, that is the essential confrontation. Events will show who was right, George W. Bush or Jacques Chirac.

"What matters, and what ultimately sprang the U.N. trap, is American resolve. The administration simply wouldn't let up. It didn't matter how Hans Blix muddied the waters with his reports on this or that weapons system. Under the U.N. resolutions, it was up to Saddam to disarm, administration officials repeated ad nauseam, and he wasn't doing it. It was and is sheer relentlessness that has driven us to where we are today.

"Which is ironic. We are in this situation because the first Bush administration was not relentless in its pursuit of Saddam Hussein. That is a mistake this Bush administration will not repeat."

dharmabum
03-30-2008, 10:40 AM
If only William Krystol and Dick Cheney would learn to shut up.

Freethinker
03-30-2008, 12:00 PM
Pundits Who Were Wrong on Iraq Are Silent


Yes, Mr. Brooks is strangely silent now.

The SAME silence that afflicts the huge faction of RightWingers in this country (and that group has many adherents on these very boards) who were, right along with David Brooks, clamoring for this nation to wage war on Iraq.

They remain silent on it when it comes to admitting they were dead wrong.......but they can be heard loudly caterwauling whenever anyone dares to criticize the sainted Rightwing leadership who fomented this war based on lies, when they rise as one to spew forth endless excuses for the war effort having gone so horribly wrong.

TgrFan
04-02-2008, 10:49 AM
I have not posted much, but would like to weigh in on this. I'm recently out of the military and have been against the Iraq War from day 1.

It has been irritating to see so many of the supporters of the invasion keep looking for reasons why the invasion was justified when, at least from where I sit, it was not.

I remember watching the coverage of then- Secretary of State Powell waving the vial of "anthrax" around the UN chambers. It was all about WMD. When WMD were never found, we continued to shift the rationale for the invasion.

Now, I don't expect an Administration-wide mea culpa with respect to the war, but it would be nice to hear some of the hawkish pundits admit that they may have jumped the gun on supporting the invasion, especially given that most of them risked little or nothing in a military invasion.

F. de Marzipan
04-02-2008, 10:56 AM
I have not posted much, but would like to weigh in on this. I'm recently out of the military and have been against the Iraq War from day 1.

It has been irritating to see so many of the supporters of the invasion keep looking for reasons why the invasion was justified when, at least from where I sit, it was not.

I remember watching the coverage of then- Secretary of State Powell waving the vial of "anthrax" around the UN chambers. It was all about WMD. When WMD were never found, we continued to shift the rationale for the invasion.

Now, I don't expect an Administration-wide mea culpa with respect to the war, but it would be nice to hear some of the hawkish pundits admit that they may have jumped the gun on supporting the invasion, especially given that most of them risked little or nothing in a military invasion.

TgrFan, thank you for your service and your honesty. We need more people like you - people who've actually been there and know exactly what's going on (and what isn't) - to speak up and educate the sheeple.

As for any admission of error on the part of the war-hawks, I'm sorry to say you're going to have a long wait.

Decka
04-02-2008, 11:03 AM
Yes, Mr. Brooks is strangely silent now.

The SAME silence that afflicts the huge faction of RightWingers in this country (and that group has many adherents on these very boards) who were, right along with David Brooks, clamoring for this nation to wage war on Iraq.

They remain silent on it when it comes to admitting they were dead wrong.......but they can be heard loudly caterwauling whenever anyone dares to criticize the sainted Rightwing leadership who fomented this war based on lies, when they rise as one to spew forth endless excuses for the war effort having gone so horribly wrong.

Can you please stop spewing your theoretical rhetoric??? I mean... My God!!! (see signature)

TgrFan
04-02-2008, 11:19 AM
TgrFan, thank you for your service and your honesty. We need more people like you - people who've actually been there and know exactly what's going on (and what isn't) - to speak up and educate the sheeple.

As for any admission of error on the part of the war-hawks, I'm sorry to say you're going to have a long wait.

Thanks for your appreciation of my service. It does mean a lot to us, by the way. I love my nation and was proud to serve, even though I didn't really agree with the cause I was fighting for. (But that's a whole other can of worms.)

I think you are correct that the hawks will never speak ill of the war. Which is a shame. Honestly, I just turn the pundits off these days or skip their columns in the paper.

Haven't seen anything new from them in a while, to be sure. It does get irritating, since they (the hawks) seem to have some unique "insight" into the situation that us regular Joes don't. The reality, unfortunately, is that they are often way off the mark.

smartmouthwoman
04-02-2008, 01:35 PM
Thanks for your appreciation of my service. It does mean a lot to us, by the way. I love my nation and was proud to serve, even though I didn't really agree with the cause I was fighting for. (But that's a whole other can of worms.)

I think you are correct that the hawks will never speak ill of the war. Which is a shame. Honestly, I just turn the pundits off these days or skip their columns in the paper.

Haven't seen anything new from them in a while, to be sure. It does get irritating, since they (the hawks) seem to have some unique "insight" into the situation that us regular Joes don't. The reality, unfortunately, is that they are often way off the mark.

I, too, appreciate your service to our country. However, I find it curious how you fought for the cause and have so much "insight" into the futility of the war in Iraq when you served your time in Japan? Insight by osmosis, I suppose?

Good luck with your studies. That nasty ole military is good for something besides keeping us safe, eh?

:)
SMW

TgrFan
04-02-2008, 01:57 PM
I, too, appreciate your service to our country. However, I find it curious how you fought for the cause and have so much "insight" into the futility of the war in Iraq when you served your time in Japan? Insight by osmosis, I suppose?

Good luck with your studies. That nasty ole military is good for something besides keeping us safe, eh?

:)
SMW

Well, just because I was stationed in Japan, doesn't mean that I couldn't be deployed into theater. I actually spent 2006 in Afghanistan. And I was in the Navy, by the way. We (the USN) are sending 12-20,000 sailors a year into CENTCOM to augment the Army and Marine mission. I left my home command in Japan in order to fill a billet that was identified for my particular Naval designator.

Yes, I know Afghanistan is not Iraq, but my job was strategic planning and we were more or less forced to use Iraq war planning strategy for the Afghan mission. So, I studied much of the source documentation for the current situation in Iraq, to include long and short term Situation Reports and documents relating to the strategic vision.

So, no, it wasn't insight by osmosis but rather insight by being there and learning, in depth, how we are fighting both wars at the Campaign level.

Thanks for the good wishes for my studies, by the way. College this time around, though, is on my own dime. (I want to be a Navy Doctor... got that inconvenient Pre-Med and Med School thing before I get to that.)

dharmabum
04-02-2008, 02:08 PM
Tgrfan,

Is that "Tiger Fan", As in Detroit Tigers?

Thank you for your service and good luck pursuing your studies! Doctor is among the most noble of professions and a military doctor arguably moreso because you may also be risking your life in the line of duty. (ER docs in New York City or Detroit may argue that point with me)

smartmouthwoman
04-02-2008, 02:12 PM
Well, just because I was stationed in Japan, doesn't mean that I couldn't be deployed into theater. I actually spent 2006 in Afghanistan. And I was in the Navy, by the way. We (the USN) are sending 12-20,000 sailors a year into CENTCOM to augment the Army and Marine mission. I left my home command in Japan in order to fill a billet that was identified for my particular Naval designator.

Yes, I know Afghanistan is not Iraq, but my job was strategic planning and we were more or less forced to use Iraq war planning strategy for the Afghan mission. So, I studied much of the source documentation for the current situation in Iraq, to include long and short term Situation Reports and documents relating to the strategic vision.

So, no, it wasn't insight by osmosis but rather insight by being there and learning, in depth, how we are fighting both wars at the Campaign level.

Thanks for the good wishes for my studies, by the way. College this time around, though, is on my own dime. (I want to be a Navy Doctor... got that inconvenient Pre-Med and Med School thing before I get to that.)

Thanks for the clarification. I'm sure you know more about the situation in Iraq than... oh... say, Obama.

Again, good luck on the studies! I'm sure you'll make a great Navy Doc!

TgrFan
04-02-2008, 02:17 PM
Tgrfan,

Is that "Tiger Fan", As in Detroit Tigers?

Thank you for your service and good luck pursuing your studies! Doctor is among the most noble of professions and a military doctor arguably moreso because you may also be risking your life in the line of duty. (ER docs in New York City or Detroit may argue that point with me)

It is "Tiger Fan," but is in reference to Auburn University (my alma mater) and LSU (the school that is currently draining my bank account). Although I did pull for Detroit in '06 when the were making their run for the Series.

Ok, that's enough... I'm not going to hijack this thread. (But could talk sports all day.)

Jester
04-02-2008, 03:35 PM
Now, I don't expect an Administration-wide mea culpa with respect to the war, but it would be nice to hear some of the hawkish pundits admit that they may have jumped the gun on supporting the invasion, especially given that most of them risked little or nothing in a military invasion.
They probably still believe that invading Iraq was the right thing to do, so you won't see them admitting to anything. How they can stick to some fantasy political theory that has no basis in reality is beyond me.

TgrFan
04-02-2008, 03:49 PM
They probably still believe that invading Iraq was the right thing to do, so you won't see them admitting to anything. How they can stick to some fantasy political theory that has no basis in reality is beyond me.

The problem is that too many people in government and media are too far removed from Vietnam, Korea, WWII, etc. (not all, but many) that they forget about the real cost of waging war. I think that the author's original point is often missed by a lot of readers (I read this article before I saw it here.) To many, the war is far away and doesn't actually touch lives in a significant sense. Although our military needs civilian oversight (one of the necessities of a Democracy, in my mind), this is one of the shortfalls of that organization. Often, those who control the armies on a grand scale are the ones who have the least contact with those same armies.

Jester
04-02-2008, 04:05 PM
The problem is that too many people in government and media are too far removed from Vietnam, Korea, WWII, etc. (not all, but many) that they forget about the real cost of waging war. I think that the author's original point is often missed by a lot of readers (I read this article before I saw it here.) To many, the war is far away and doesn't actually touch lives in a significant sense. Although our military needs civilian oversight (one of the necessities of a Democracy, in my mind), this is one of the shortfalls of that organization. Often, those who control the armies on a grand scale are the ones who have the least contact with those same armies.
To be fair, it is possible to know the costs of war and still support it, and there are many who do. But yes, I do have my doubts about how many people in the government and media fit that description.

TgrFan
04-02-2008, 04:24 PM
To be fair, it is possible to know the costs of war and still support it, and there are many who do. But yes, I do have my doubts about how many people in the government and media fit that description.

It is true, and don't get me wrong. I'm not always anti-war, and never will be but I think that it is imperative that our government use our military only when absolutely prudent. I have always found it distasteful that, too often, our soldiers are used as instruments of foreign policy.

So, of course, it is our duty as citizens to ensure that our military is not viewed as "expendable" by holding our officials accountable. I know that an individual's stance on the war weighs heavily on my voting preference. Of course, the media talking heads should also be held accountable in their own way. I don't buy Ann Coulter's books and I don't listen to Rush Limbaugh (or his advertising) because I don't support their viewpoints on the war. (Not picking on them... there are more people I don't support monetarily... these two just came to mind first.)

Obviously, everyone has the right to support or not support the war, but I feel that most really just follow their partisan feelings on their stance and I'm trying to be a bit more complete than that.

Foolsworth
04-02-2008, 06:24 PM
If only William Krystol and Dick Cheney would learn to shut up.

Wars certainly aren't won by popularity contests.
In point of fact,neither do most beauty pageants.
Whom ever had the Bitchinest Butt and Walks the Walk,usually
is victorious.
Al Qaeda would like nothin better than to shut-up America.
You do realize that...I hope.

fluffernutter
04-02-2008, 07:33 PM
The problem is that too many people in government and media are too far removed from Vietnam, Korea, WWII, etc. (not all, but many) that they forget about the real cost of waging war. Good point, over overlooked. War should be fought all-out, but only as a last resort. Afghanistan - yes, justified; Iraq - bad timing, bad planning, bad execution, not enough justification or worldwide support... We should have kept our eye on the real target: Al Qaeda hiding out in Tora Bora.

Welcome to AllForums and thanks for your service.

DarkFantasy96
04-02-2008, 07:37 PM
Tgrfan, welcome. You seem like a good addition to Allforums. :)

TgrFan
04-02-2008, 07:50 PM
Good point, over overlooked. War should be fought all-out, but only as a last resort. Afghanistan - yes, justified; Iraq - bad timing, bad planning, bad execution, not enough justification or worldwide support... We should have kept our eye on the real target: Al Qaeda hiding out in Tora Bora.

Welcome to AllForums and thanks for your service.

That is a good summary of my overall opinion of the two wars. I've long thought that we lost the war in Afghanistan the day we put the first boots on the ground in Iraq.

TgrFan
04-02-2008, 07:50 PM
Tgrfan, welcome. You seem like a good addition to Allforums. :)

Thanks! Having a good time here, so far.

Canadianreader
04-02-2008, 08:00 PM
How they can stick to some fantasy political theory that has no basis in reality is beyond me.
__________________________________________

You can answer your question by remembering why the US refused France and other nations offering to supply all the troops and security forces needed in Iraq after the war; if the US went home.