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LiquidFork
03-24-2008, 04:50 AM
Families torn by citizenship for fallen
By HELEN O'NEILL, AP Special CorrespondentSun Mar 23, 11:37 PM ET


A young, ambitious immigrant from Guatemala who dreamed of becoming an architect. A Nigerian medic. A soldier from China who boasted he would one day become an American general. An Indian native whose headstone displays the first Khanda, emblem of the Sikh faith, to appear in Arlington National Cemetery.

These were among more than 100 foreign-born members of the U.S. military who earned American citizenship by dying in Iraq.
Jose Gutierrez was one of the first to fall, killed by friendly fire in the dust of Umm Qasr in the opening hours of the invasion.
In death, the young Marine was showered with honors his family could only have dreamed of in life. His sister was flown in from Guatemala for his memorial service, where a Roman Catholic cardinal presided and top military officials saluted his flag-draped coffin.
And yet, his foster mother agonized as she accompanied his body back for burial in Guatemala City: Why did Jose have to die for America in order to truly belong?

Cardinal Roger Mahony of Los Angeles, who oversaw Gutierrez's service, put it differently.
"There is something terribly wrong with our immigration policies if it takes death on the battlefield in order to earn citizenship," Mahony wrote to President Bush in April 2003. He urged the president to grant immediate citizenship to all immigrants who sign up for military service in wartime.
"They should not have to wait until they are brought home in a casket," Mahony said.

But as the war continues, more and more immigrants are becoming citizens in death — and more and more families are grappling with deeply conflicting feelings about exactly what the honor means.
Gutierrez's citizenship certificate — dated to his death on March 21, 2003, — was presented during a memorial service in Lomita, Calif., to Nora Mosquera, who took in the orphaned teen after he had trekked through Central America, hopping freight trains through Mexico before illegally sneaking into the U.S.
"On the one hand I felt that citizenship was too late for him," Mosquera said. "But I also felt grateful and very proud of him. I knew it would open doors for us as a family."
"What use is a piece of paper?" cried Fredelinda Pena after another emotional naturalization ceremony, this one in New York City where her brother's framed citizenship certificate was handed to his distraught mother. Next to her, the infant daughter he had never met dozed in his fiancee's arms.

Cpl. Juan Alcantara, 22, a native of the Dominican Republic, was killed Aug. 6, 2007, by an explosive in Baqouba. He was buried by a cardinal and eulogized by a congressman but to his sister, those tributes seemed as hollow as citizenship.
"He can't take the oath from a coffin," she sobbed.
There are tens of thousands of foreign-born members in the U.S. armed forces. Many have been naturalized, but more than 20,000 are not U.S. citizens.

"Green card soldiers," they are often called, and early in the war, Bush signed an executive order making them eligible to apply for citizenship as soon as they enlist. Previously, legal residents in the military had to wait three years.
Since Bush's order, nearly 37,000 soldiers have been naturalized. And 109 who lost their lives have been granted posthumous citizenship.

They are buried with purple hearts and other decorations, and their names are engraved on tombstones in Arlington as well as in Mexico and India and Guatemala.
Among them:

• Marine Cpl. Armando Ariel Gonzalez, 25, who fled Cuba on a raft with his father and brother in 1995 and dreamed of becoming an American firefighter. He was crushed by a refueling tank in southern Iraq on April 14, 2003.

• Army Spc. Justin Onwordi, a 28-year-old Nigerian medic whose heart seemed as big as his smiling 6-foot-4 frame and who left behind a wife and baby boy. He died when his vehicle was blown up in Baghdad on Aug. 2, 2004.

• Army Pfc. Ming Sun, 20, of China who loved the U.S. military so much he planned to make a career out of it, boasting that he would rise to the rank of general. He was killed in a firefight in Ramadi on Jan. 9, 2007.

• Army Spc. Uday Singh, 21, of India, killed when his patrol was attacked in Habbaniyah on Dec. 1, 2003. Singh was the first Sikh to die in battle as a U.S. soldier, and it is his headstone at Arlington that displays the Khanda.

• Marine Lance Cpl. Patrick O'Day from Scotland, buried in the California rain as bagpipes played and his 19-year-old pregnant wife told mourners how honored her 20-year-old husband had felt to fight for the country he loved.
"He left us in the most honorable way a man could," Shauna O'Day said at the March 2003 Santa Rosa service. "I'm proud to say my husband is a Marine. I'm proud to say my husband fought for our country. I'm proud to say he is a hero, my hero."
Not all surviving family members feel so sure. Some parents blame themselves for bringing their child to the U.S. in the first place. Others face confusion and resentment when they try to bury their child back home.

At Lance Cpl. Juan Lopez's July 4, 2004, funeral in the central Mexican town of San Luis de la Paz, Mexican soldiers demanded that the U.S. Marine honor guard surrender their arms, even though the rifles were ceremonial. Earlier, the Mexican Defense Department had denied the Marines' request to conduct the traditional 21-gun salute, saying foreign troops were not permitted to bear arms on Mexican soil.
And so mourners, many deeply opposed to the war, witnessed an extraordinary 45-minute standoff that disrupted the funeral even as Lopez's weeping widow was handed his posthumous citizenship by a U.S. embassy official.

The same swirl of conflicting emotions and messages often overshadows the military funerals of posthumous citizens in the U.S.
Smuggled across the Mexican border in his mother's arms when he was 2 months old, Jose Garibay was just 21 when he died in Nasiriyah. The Costa Mesa police department made him an honorary police officer, something he had hoped one day to become. America made him a citizen.
But his mother, Simona Garibay, couldn't conceal her bewilderment and pain. It seemed, she said in interviews after the funeral, that more value was being placed on her son's death than on his life.
Immigrant advocates have similar mixed feelings about military service. Non-citizens cannot become officers or serve in high-security jobs, they note, and yet the benefits of citizenship are regularly pitched by recruiters, and some recruitment programs specifically target colleges and high schools with predominantly Latino students.
"Immigrants are lured into service and then used as political pawns or cannon fodder," said Dan Kesselbrenner, executive director of the National Immigration Project, a program of the National Lawyers Guild. "It is sad thing to see people so desperate to get status in this country that they are prepared to die for it."

Others question whether non-citizens should even be permitted to serve. Mark Krikorian of the conservative Center for Immigration Studies, argues that defending America should be the job of Americans, not non-citizens whose loyalty might be suspect. In granting special benefits, including fast-track citizenship, Krikorian says, there is a danger that soldiering will eventually become yet another job that Americans won't do.
And yet, immigrants have always fought — and died — in America's wars.

During the Cvil War, the Union army recruited Irish and German immigrants off the boat. Alfred Rascon, an illegal immigrant from Mexico, received the Medal of Honor for acts of bravery during the Vietnam war. In the 1990s, Gen. John Shalikashvili, born in Poland after his family fled the occupied Republic of Georgia, became chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
After the Iraq invasion, the U.S. Embassy in Mexico fielded hundreds of requests from Mexicans offering to fight in exchange for citizenship. They mistakenly believed that Bush's order also applied to nonresidents.

The right to become an American is not automatic for those who die in combat. Families must formally apply for citizenship within two years of the soldier's death, and not all choose to do so.
"He's Italian, better to leave it like that," Saveria Romeo says of her 23-year-old son, Army Staff Sgt. Vincenzo Romeo, who was born in Calabria, died in Iraq and is buried in New Jersey. A miniature Italian flag marks his grave, next to an American one.
"What good would it do?" she says. "It won't bring back my son."

But it would allow her to apply for citizenship for herself, a benefit only recently offered to surviving parents and spouses. Until 2003 posthumous citizenship was granted only through an act of Congress and was purely symbolic. There were no benefits for next of kin.
Romeo says she has no desire to apply. She says she couldn't bear to benefit in any way from her son's death. And besides, she feels Italian, not American.

Fernando Suarez del Solar just feels angry — angry at what he considers the futility of a war that claimed his only son, angry at the military recruiters he says courted young Jesus relentlessly even when the family still lived in Tijuana.
His son was just 13, Suarez del Solar said, when he was first dazzled by Marine recruiters in a California mall. For the next two years Jesus begged the family to emigrate and eventually they did, settling in Escondido, Calif., where the teen signed up for the Marines before he left high school.
Lance Cpl. Jesus Suarez Del Solar was 20 when he was killed by a bomb in the first week of the war. He left behind a wife and baby and parents so bitter about his death that they eventually divorced.
Today, his 52-year-old father has become an outspoken peace activist who travels the country organizing anti-war marches, giving speeches and working with counter-recruitment groups to dissuade young Latinos from joining the U.S. military.

"There is nothing in my life now but saving these young people," he says. "It is just something I feel have to do." But first he had to journey to Iraq. He had to see for himself the dusty stretch of wasteland where his son became an American. In tears, he planted a small wooden cross. And he prayed for his son — and for all the other immigrants who became citizens in death.

dharmabum
03-24-2008, 06:41 AM
I find it disturbing that we cannot find enough Americans to join the service so we have to recruit what amounts to foreign mercinaries.

LiquidFork
03-24-2008, 08:32 AM
I dont think the people who served the military or thier families would consider themselves foreign mercinaries.

Clearly the point of this article missed you.

dharmabum
03-24-2008, 08:38 AM
I dont think the people who served the military or thier families would consider themselves foreign mercinaries.

Illegal immigrants don't consider themselves to be criminals either.


Clearly the point of this article missed you.

No, I understand it just fine. I simply find it disturbing that we have to look to foreigners to populate our military.

Canadianreader
03-24-2008, 01:39 PM
LiquidFork ~These people chose to Join the US military for citizenship then no I guess they are not foreign mercenaries.

However automatic citizenship for these people after boot camp would increase the cost associated with citizenship, and benefits. To take for granted that all will go well before the first day standing off base for these soldiers would surely end in a disaster.

dharmabum
03-24-2008, 01:57 PM
What else would you call paid military service?
They are not citizens, so it isn't any patriotic sense of duty.

CarbonBasedLife
03-24-2008, 02:00 PM
I simply find it disturbing that we have to look to foreigners to populate our military.

Would you prefer a draft?

Canadianreader
03-24-2008, 02:24 PM
What else would you call paid military service?
They are not citizens, so it isn't any patriotic sense of duty. mercenaries go home

Jester
03-24-2008, 03:14 PM
dharmabum,
Please tell me you're not serious.

LiquidFork
03-24-2008, 03:17 PM
What else would you call paid military service?
They are not citizens, so it isn't any patriotic sense of duty.

Damn it dharma,you know very well what these desperate people are doing for a chance at citizenship is NOT even close to what a mercenary is or does. Get your head out of your ass.

This wasnt a Right VS left article..... this wasnt Even a pro war VS anti war article.

this was written to show the an alarming trend of the desperation of these people in order to gain citizenship. If you honestly believe that the current American citizens enlisted in the armed services to date are there for patriotic duty you are more of an idiot that anyone originally thought. People join the military for many reasons. Some for better advancement in life,some to help pay for school,some for a sense of belonging to something,and these people are joining for a slight chance of becoming an American.

Cardinal Roger Mahony of Los Angeles,put it differently.
"There is something terribly wrong with our immigration policies if it takes death on the battlefield in order to earn citizenship,"

DHamra I know you have an agenda to push,but your barking up the wrong tree here.

DarkFantasy96
03-24-2008, 05:01 PM
Of course it's not a pro war vs. anti war article... It's about immigration. A tear-jerker for sure, but the underlying point is wrong.
"There is something terribly wrong with our immigration policies if it takes death on the battlefield in order to earn citizenship,"
It DOESN'T take death to earn citizenship. We let in a million legal immigrants a year - seems like enough to me. We can't possibly let in every single person who wants to come to our country, period.

Canadianreader
03-24-2008, 05:08 PM
If you honestly believe that the current American citizens enlisted in the armed services to date are there for patriotic duty you are more of an idiot that anyone originally thought.

______________________________________
What's a volenteer army about then?

LiquidFork
03-24-2008, 05:14 PM
Of course it's not a pro war vs. anti war article... It's about immigration. A tear-jerker for sure, but the underlying point is wrong.

It DOESN'T take death to earn citizenship. We let in a million legal immigrants a year - seems like enough to me. We can't possibly let in every single person who wants to come to our country, period.

well ofcourse. that I definetly agree with.


if people are coming to this country and willing to die for this country,i feel wither we should offer them a better deal,or not let them fight to begin with. Risking your life overseas is not a fair deal in order to fast track citizenship.

DarkFantasy96
03-24-2008, 05:16 PM
well ofcourse. that I definetly agree with.


if people are coming to this country and willing to die for this country,i feel wither we should offer them a better deal,or not let them fight to begin with. Risking your life overseas is not a fair deal in order to fast track citizenship.
Well what are you suggesting? Someone says "Hey I'll fight in the military and risk death for citizenship.", and we say "Oh okay then you must really mean it! You don't have to join the military, we'll just give you the citizenship!"?

gmsisko1
03-24-2008, 05:20 PM
Dharm,

You probably consider yourself as a very smart guy.

Plenty would disagree.


Illegal immigrants don't consider themselves to be criminals either.



No, I understand it just fine. I simply find it disturbing that we have to look to foreigners to populate our military.

Canadianreader
03-24-2008, 05:22 PM
Well what are you suggesting? Someone says "Hey I'll fight in the military and risk death for citizenship.", and we say "Oh okay then you must really mean it! You don't have to join the military, we'll just give you the citizenship!"?

Thats what I think he's saying

LiquidFork
03-24-2008, 05:22 PM
Well what are you suggesting? Someone says "Hey I'll fight in the military and risk death for citizenship.", and we say "Oh okay then you must really mean it! You don't have to join the military, we'll just give you the citizenship!"?

I personally was leaning more towards not letting these people fight for the armed services. They are joinging and risking thier lives for wrong reasons IMO

DarkFantasy96
03-24-2008, 05:31 PM
I personally was leaning more towards not letting these people fight for the armed services. They are joinging and risking thier lives for wrong reasons IMO
I think they should be able to join. We should definitely give citizenship to any foreigners who enlist. What makes enlisting for citizenship worse than enlisting to be able to go to college for free or to have a guaranteed steady career or to get out of poverty?

LiquidFork
03-24-2008, 05:46 PM
I think they should be able to join. We should definitely give citizenship to any foreigners who enlist.? i can agree there without protest. If they are willing to die for the US why not make them apart of the US


What makes enlisting for citizenship worse than enlisting to be able to go to college for free or to have a guaranteed steady career or to get out of poverty? I am not a opponent of what your saying... my issue is they are enlisting with the idea of becoming a citizen and only becoming one if they die in battle.


"Green card soldiers," they are often called, and early in the war, Bush signed an executive order making them eligible to apply for citizenship as soon as they enlist. Previously, legal residents in the military had to wait three years."
"After the Iraq invasion, the U.S. Embassy in Mexico fielded hundreds of requests from Mexicans offering to fight in exchange for citizenship. They mistakenly believed that Bush's order also applied to nonresidents"


I think the system definitely needs to be changed.

Canadianreader
03-24-2008, 06:06 PM
I find it disturbing that we cannot find enough Americans to join the service so we have to recruit what amounts to foreign mercinaries.
__________________________________________________ ____-
I agree in your opinion

paulc
03-24-2008, 06:22 PM
LF. Earlier on you said that Dharma missed the point of the thread, maybe you could spell out its meaning for me also, thanks.

Brooks
03-24-2008, 06:39 PM
LF. Earlier on you said that Dharma missed the point of the thread, maybe you could spell out its meaning for me also, thanks.
The "point" of the article is determined by whoever is reading it.

"Marine Lance Cpl. Patrick O'Day from Scotland, buried in the California rain as bagpipes played and his 19-year-old pregnant wife told mourners how honored her 20-year-old husband had felt to fight for the country he loved."

I read that and I'm amazed that this young man could love another country so much that he was willing to die for it. I think it's very moving and beautiful.

Others would naturally sieze upon, what they consider, the coercive aspects of a selfish, militaristic nation.

In both cases we are projecting ourselves into the story and making it into a validation of how we already feel.

For the latter group it is impossible to see this story through the eyes of someone who could be so devoted to something.

paulc
03-24-2008, 06:41 PM
The "point" of the article is determined by whoever is reading it.

"Marine Lance Cpl. Patrick O'Day from Scotland, buried in the California rain as bagpipes played and his 19-year-old pregnant wife told mourners how honored her 20-year-old husband had felt to fight for the country he loved."

I read that and I'm amazed that this young man could love another country so much that he was willing to die for it. I think it's very moving and beautiful.

Others would naturally sieze upon, what they consider, the coercive aspects of a selfish, militaristic nation.

In both cases we are projecting ourselves on the story in a way and making it into a validation of how we already feel.

For the latter group it is impossible to see this story through the eyes of someone who could be so devoted to something.

OK Brooks, tell me this.
If say Cpl O'Day was a foreign national serving in the US Armed Forces and killed in action, does he automaticlly become a US Citizen, or how does this work ?

LiquidFork
03-24-2008, 06:42 PM
Illegal immigrants don't consider themselves to be criminals either.



No, I understand it just fine. I simply find it disturbing that we have to look to foreigners to populate our military.

less than 5% of the current united states armed forces are not US citzens. There are no current active military recruitment programs that target non US citizens.

mikezila
03-24-2008, 11:31 PM
The "point" of the article is determined by whoever is reading it.

"Marine Lance Cpl. Patrick O'Day from Scotland, buried in the California rain as bagpipes played and his 19-year-old pregnant wife told mourners how honored her 20-year-old husband had felt to fight for the country he loved."

I read that and I'm amazed that this young man could love another country so much that he was willing to die for it. I think it's very moving and beautiful.

Others would naturally sieze upon, what they consider, the coercive aspects of a selfish, militaristic nation.

In both cases we are projecting ourselves into the story and making it into a validation of how we already feel.

For the latter group it is impossible to see this story through the eyes of someone who could be so devoted to something.

if it gets attacked from both sides, it must be neutral!

dharmabum
03-25-2008, 09:55 AM
Would you prefer a draft?

Yes.

dharmabum
03-25-2008, 09:57 AM
This wasnt a Right VS left article..... this wasnt Even a pro war VS anti war article.

I never mentioned right vs left or pro vs anti war.
You are the first one to inject that into this thread.


Cardinal Roger Mahony of Los Angeles,put it differently.
"There is something terribly wrong with our immigration policies if it takes death on the battlefield in order to earn citizenship,"

I agree with that. We should not be asking foreigners to fight in our military for the promised payoff of citizenship.

I would much rather see a draft if it means an American military fighting for America.

dharmabum
03-25-2008, 10:00 AM
Dharm,

You probably consider yourself as a very smart guy.

Plenty would disagree.

Coming from someone like you, I take it as a compliment.

:thumbs:

dharmabum
03-25-2008, 10:02 AM
less than 5% of the current united states armed forces are not US citzens. There are no current active military recruitment programs that target non US citizens.

From two years ago, as reported in the Boston Globe (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2006/12/26/military_considers_recruiting_foreigners/).

WASHINGTON -- The armed forces, already struggling to meet recruiting goals, are considering expanding the number of noncitizens in the ranks -- including disputed proposals to open recruiting stations overseas and putting more immigrants on a faster track to US citizenship if they volunteer -- according to Pentagon officials.

Brooks
03-25-2008, 11:23 AM
OK Brooks, tell me this.
If say Cpl O'Day was a foreign national serving in the US Armed Forces and killed in action, does he automaticlly become a US Citizen, or how does this work ?
Maybe you can find that information online.
(Why do you think I would know?)

Freethinker
03-25-2008, 11:52 AM
I'm amazed that this young man could love another country so much that he was willing to die for it. I think it's very moving and beautiful.

I too am amazed.

But far from being 'moving and beautiful', I personally find it to be one of the most tragic and sickening things imaginable that human beings can be brainwashed into "love of country" to the degree that they'd die for it when it, as is the current case, it is over nothing more than the control of oil.

I wonder how many more dollars some oil company fatcat got to add to his already immense bank account due to the efforts of this young man.......efforts that cost him his life.

The Praetorian
03-25-2008, 11:59 AM
I wonder how many more dollars some oil company fatcat got to add to his already immense bank account due to the efforts of this young man.......efforts that cost him his life.
It's a moot point - it was O'Day's decision.

The Praetorian
03-25-2008, 12:01 PM
But far from being 'moving and beautiful', I personally find it to be one of the most tragic and sickening things imaginable that human beings can be brainwashed into "love of country" to the degree that they'd die for it when it.....
Just out of curiosity, did we brainwash him, too?

Brooks
03-25-2008, 12:02 PM
I too am amazed.

But far from being 'moving and beautiful', I personally find it to be one of the most tragic and sickening things imaginable....
As I said in the prior post "For the latter group it is impossible to see this story through the eyes of someone who could be so devoted to something."

I'm not surprised by your reaction.

mikezila
03-25-2008, 12:17 PM
I too am amazed.

But far from being 'moving and beautiful', I personally find it to be one of the most tragic and sickening things imaginable that human beings can be brainwashed into "love of country" to the degree that they'd die for it when it, as is the current case, it is over nothing more than the control of oil.

I wonder how many more dollars some oil company fatcat got to add to his already immense bank account due to the efforts of this young man.......efforts that cost him his life.
only 1% of oil company stock is owned by oil company executives, the other 99% is owned by the little guys like me, and pension funds.

Freethinker
03-25-2008, 12:57 PM
As I said in the prior post "For the latter group it is impossible to see this story through the eyes of someone who could be so devoted to something."

It is indeed impossible for me to see this story through the eyes of **someone who could be so devoted to something**, when that *something* happens to be a needless, senseless war that was trumped up on the basis of lies and that is being fought solely for the benefit of huge Oil and Defense industry interests.

The Praetorian
03-25-2008, 03:25 PM
It is indeed impossible for me to see this story through the eyes of **someone who could be so devoted to something**, when that *something* happens to be a needless, senseless war that was trumped up on the basis of lies and that is being fought solely for the benefit of huge Oil and Defense industry interests.
No, you moron - he was referring to the splendor of our country, not O'Day's supposed devotion to our war in Iraq. His participation in that was simply a means to an end, and unfortunately, it was one that cost him his life. You just proved Brooks' point. The only thing O'Day cared about was fast tracking his citizenship. Maybe you should find an adult with a 3 digit IQ to explain the concept. Cock.

Freethinker
03-25-2008, 04:14 PM
The only thing O'Day cared about was fast tracking his citizenship.

Okay.

I wasn't aware that you knew him personally.

The Praetorian
03-26-2008, 10:42 AM
Okay.

I wasn't aware that you knew him personally.
LOL! I don't. I was referring to what BROOKS was talking about. Figuring out O'Day's motivation wasn't all that difficult.