So tell me why is MY salvation dependent on my accepting him as my lord and savior? Somebody help me with this one please!

:bighug:

Well, you never asked your parents to conceive you either.

Well, you never asked your parents to conceive you either.
However, your salvation does not necessarily depend on accepting your parents as your Lord and Savior. So the analogy is really quite loose.

You don't have to accept your parents.. you can run away and burn that bridge anytime you please.

Salvation and the love and financial and mental support of your parents would be the comparable factor....

So tell me why is MY salvation dependent on my accepting him as my lord and savior? Somebody help me with this one please!

:bighug:
it's all about forgiveness-if Jesus could forgive those that chastised & crucified him, is forgiving the jerk that cut you off on your way to work that much of a stretch?

why is forgiving important? it stops hate from eating away at you.

You can be forgiving without believing in Jesus.

You can be forgiving without believing in Jesus.
but he is a good example-his last words were for mercy for his tormentors.

the bottom line is,.. God showed us forgiveness, which we did not, and do not, deserve. Just my opinion (disclaimer)

So tell me why is MY salvation dependent on my accepting him as my lord and savior? Somebody help me with this one please!

:bighug:

Logistically, since you weren't around during the time when Jesus walked the earth, it's not too difficult to understand why you were never asked whether or not he should die for you. But take heart in the very clear message he left about your salvation:

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believed in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

If you believe Jesus died, you must also believe he lived! Which to me, my old friend, is VERY good news indeed!!

:hug:
SMW

Who is more deserving than Jesus as a savior, a man who stood by his convictions through torture and death against profiteers of God.

its all a bunch of crap anyway.

You can be forgiving without believing in Jesus.

I am a very forgiving guy! And I do my best to follow the commandments. I think Jesus was the greatest teacher ever and his teachings are the most difficult to follow. However many reborns tell me that is not enough. So my comment was directed at them!

-Feetie

Logistically, since you weren't around during the time when Jesus walked the earth, it's not too difficult to understand why you were never asked whether or not he should die for you. But take heart in the very clear message he left about your salvation:

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believed in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

If you believe Jesus died, you must also believe he lived! Which to me, my old friend, is VERY good news indeed!!

:hug:
SMW

Great point my love! I believe he lived and a great guy. My problem is with the reborns to tell me I HAVE to accept his divinity or can't be saved! I just don't agree. I have often thought of converting to Judism! What do you think?

-Feetie!

So tell me why is MY salvation dependent on my accepting him as my lord and savior? Somebody help me with this one please!

:bighug:

if anyone gives you a hard time, ask them to explain the dinosaurs.
it's all fairy tales and santa clause.. non of it is able to be proven.
but if it makes people calm, let them have it.

if anyone gives you a hard time, ask them to explain the dinosaurs.
it's all fairy tales and santa clause.. non of it is able to be proven.
but if it makes people calm, let them have it.

Thanks buddy. Its all good. I am just here to piss off some reborns!


-Feets

Great point my love! I believe he lived and a great guy. My problem is with the reborns to tell me I HAVE to accept his divinity or can't be saved! I just don't agree. I have often thought of converting to Judism! What do you think?

-Feetie!

Good try, dear... but I'm afraid you'll find the majority of posters at Allforums are atheists or agnostics. And of those of us who do believe in God... not one is a 'reborn' fundamentalist. Now if you wanna stir up trouble, I can tell you how to rile the atheists real quick! ;)

I don't think it matters what organization you choose to follow, as long as you know in your heart there is a power bigger than you out there.

:flowers:
SMW

Great point my love! I believe he lived and a great guy. My problem is with the reborns to tell me I HAVE to accept his divinity or can't be saved! I just don't agree. I have often thought of converting to Judism! What do you think?

-Feetie!

I hate to think of the tone and posture these "reborns" used when telling you this in order to ask this sort of question. However, the belief of Christianity is to believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins, and was divine. He was the human form of God. The whole "Father-Son-Holy Spirit, 3-in-1" thing. As much as I would love to include all religions together, the bible states pretty obviously that you must "accept his divinity", and believe these beliefs, or you "can't be saved". Does this mean God actually MEANS this? I don't think anybody knows. Remember, the bible, and all other holy books, were written by man. Although they were thought to be divinely inspired, it is my interpretation that man can do nothing perfect, and that includes representing God's wishes in a book.

If you feel the pull of Judaism, go check into it. My question to you is: Why do you feel in anyway resistant or appalled that a God would die for your sins? It is one thing to calmly question whether or not it actually happened, but your initial post suggested otherwise.

Decka - I just want you to know I enjoy your posts. Thanks!

:)
Kimi

Good try, dear... but I'm afraid you'll find the majority of posters at Allforums are atheists or agnostics. And of those of us who do believe in God... not one is a 'reborn' fundamentalist. Now if you wanna stir up trouble, I can tell you how to rile the atheists real quick! ;)

I don't think it matters what organization you choose to follow, as long as you know in your heart there is a power bigger than you out there.

:flowers:
SMW

I am sure you can get them all ticked off that is why I love you! I guess what has been worrying me lately is the rise in this reborn belief the whole push from the "left behind" type followers who seem to be gaining more political power. But that is just my super strict concept of seperation of church and state belief! Love you baby!

-Feetie

I hate to think of the tone and posture these "reborns" used when telling you this in order to ask this sort of question. However, the belief of Christianity is to believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins, and was divine. He was the human form of God. The whole "Father-Son-Holy Spirit, 3-in-1" thing. As much as I would love to include all religions together, the bible states pretty obviously that you must "accept his divinity", and believe these beliefs, or you "can't be saved". Does this mean God actually MEANS this? I don't think anybody knows. Remember, the bible, and all other holy books, were written by man. Although they were thought to be divinely inspired, it is my interpretation that man can do nothing perfect, and that includes representing God's wishes in a book.

If you feel the pull of Judaism, go check into it. My question to you is: Why do you feel in anyway resistant or appalled that a God would die for your sins? It is one thing to calmly question whether or not it actually happened, but your initial post suggested otherwise.

I never said it did or did not happen. I simply asked why if I had nothing to do with it why do I have to accept it to be saved. It was directed at the armegetan(sp) believers!

-Feetie

its all a bunch of crap anyway.
so is depending on a Lamborghini for transportation, what's your point?

if anyone gives you a hard time, ask them to explain the dinosaurs.
it's all fairy tales and santa clause.. non of it is able to be proven.
but if it makes people calm, let them have it.
depends on the level of proof you need? i can't prove you're slacking at work (again), and you can't prove a truck fell on me.

Thanks buddy. Its all good. I am just here to piss off some reborns!


-Feets
sorry, Feets, if you're going to troll, you're going to have to try harder.

I never said it did or did not happen. I simply asked why if I had nothing to do with it why do I have to accept it to be saved.
-Feetie

You do have something to do with it, indirectly. The Christian belief states that Jesus died for ALL of our sins. The rest is up to you. You can embrace his mercy, thank him, give him praise, and love God, or you can reject him. Think of it as a government program designed to give you money. It's already in place, you just don't have to go the extra mile to be involved in it. Would you be asking why the government program was made at all if it had nothing to do with you? Well, that program would... indirectly.. you just chose not to use it.

You do have something to do with it, indirectly. The Christian belief states that Jesus died for ALL of our sins. The rest is up to you. You can embrace his mercy, thank him, give him praise, and love God, or you can reject him. Think of it as a government program designed to give you money. It's already in place, you just don't have to go the extra mile to be involved in it. Would you be asking why the government program was made at all if it had nothing to do with you? Well, that program would... indirectly.. you just chose not to use it.

Good post, Decka... ITA.

:flowers:

Go Decka GO!

Give me a D!
Give me a E!
Give me a C!

Aw screw it, you get the point.

Nice post Decka.

I also enjoy Decka's posts....

Oh and SMW, I really don't think that the majority here are atheist/agnostic. You believe in God, along with me, Frogger, Inviolable, Mikezila, Decka, Foolie, Michelle, MrsKimi.... Atheists/agnostics include Borg, Vile, Nappy, Evak, Mesk, afinertouch, and FT. So off the top of my head I can think of slightly more believers than non-believers. Just slightly though. I think the numbers among the regular posters are just about equal.

You do have something to do with it, indirectly. The Christian belief states that Jesus died for ALL of our sins. The rest is up to you. You can embrace his mercy, thank him, give him praise, and love God, or you can reject him. Think of it as a government program designed to give you money. It's already in place, you just don't have to go the extra mile to be involved in it. Would you be asking why the government program was made at all if it had nothing to do with you? Well, that program would... indirectly.. you just chose not to use it.
Well, I'd be pissed at a government program designed to give me money, on general principle. So, yeah, that sounds about right. Interesting analogy, and surprisingly extensible.

**gets an ego boost from the compliments... but then comes back down to previous levels**

Thank you guys for your compliments. Nothing will really change though. I will tell people my opinion respectfully, and in some cases with capable knowledge on the subject.. in others I'll just theorize LOL. I'm glad someone enjoyed my post though. Some of my happiness comes from causing others enjoyment... even if I have to sacrifice something. Well, I really didn't have to sacrifice anything, but it's good to know that I'm noticed LOL.

I also enjoy Decka's posts....

Oh and SMW, I really don't think that the majority here are atheist/agnostic. You believe in God, along with me, Frogger, Inviolable, Mikezila, Decka, Foolie, Michelle, MrsKimi.... Atheists/agnostics include Borg, Vile, Nappy, Evak, Mesk, afinertouch, and FT. So off the top of my head I can think of slightly more believers than non-believers. Just slightly though. I think the numbers among the regular posters are just about equal.

Don't forget Frannie... and Drew.

Doesn't really matter. Maybe it just seems like there's way more atheists because they hardly ever pass up an opportunity to bash a Christian. IMHO, they pretty much dominate the religious forums (which of itself is fairly telling... gotta wonder why NON believers spend so much time thinking of God) -- until Feetie came along and started a fairly cordial discussion. Of course, it'll probably be short-lived since FT hasn't been around yet.

;)
SMW

**gets an ego boost from the compliments... but then comes back down to previous levels**

Thank you guys for your compliments. Nothing will really change though. I will tell people my opinion respectfully, and in some cases with capable knowledge on the subject.. in others I'll just theorize LOL. I'm glad someone enjoyed my post though. Some of my happiness comes from causing others enjoyment... even if I have to sacrifice something. Well, I really didn't have to sacrifice anything, but it's good to know that I'm noticed LOL.

You post intelligently about your beliefs (and we seem to believe a whole lot alike), without being rude or condescending toward anybody who doesn't believe like you do. You are a wonderful example of what a Christian is. That was my compliment to you - I just didn't expound on it.

I also enjoy Decka's posts....

Oh and SMW, I really don't think that the majority here are atheist/agnostic. You believe in God, along with me, Frogger, Inviolable, Mikezila, Decka, Foolie, Michelle, MrsKimi.... Atheists/agnostics include Borg, Vile, Nappy, Evak, Mesk, afinertouch, and FT. So off the top of my head I can think of slightly more believers than non-believers. Just slightly though. I think the numbers among the regular posters are just about equal.
What about me!

You do have something to do with it, indirectly. The Christian belief states that Jesus died for ALL of our sins. The rest is up to you. You can embrace his mercy, thank him, give him praise, and love God, or you can reject him. Think of it as a government program designed to give you money. It's already in place, you just don't have to go the extra mile to be involved in it. Would you be asking why the government program was made at all if it had nothing to do with you? Well, that program would... indirectly.. you just chose not to use it.


I like your analogy cause it is the same in government work. I can fill out every single form in triplicate and spend weeks going to meetings. And in the end they discover I did not cross one "T" so they refuse to give me my money and I starve to death. Now isn't that a cruel government? That was the point I am making.

-Feets

I hate to think of the tone and posture these "reborns" used when telling you this in order to ask this sort of question. However, the belief of Christianity is to believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins, and was divine. He was the human form of God. The whole "Father-Son-Holy Spirit, 3-in-1" thing. As much as I would love to include all religions together, the bible states pretty obviously that you must "accept his divinity", and believe these beliefs, or you "can't be saved". Does this mean God actually MEANS this? I don't think anybody knows. Remember, the bible, and all other holy books, were written by man. Although they were thought to be divinely inspired, it is my interpretation that man can do nothing perfect, and that includes representing God's wishes in a book.

If you feel the pull of Judaism, go check into it. My question to you is: Why do you feel in anyway resistant or appalled that a God would die for your sins? It is one thing to calmly question whether or not it actually happened, but your initial post suggested otherwise.

It is sad cause in my life I have known so few "TRUE" Christians. And those that I have known I am greatful and thankful for what they bring to my life. The problem is that most of the others are of the GWB type who have a superiorty type belief that theirs is the only belief system. I see christians defending Israel but fear it is only because they believe the jews need to be in that place for the second coming. So they do all they can to keep Israel as it is. That bothers me.....

It is sad cause in my life I have known so few "TRUE" Christians.

Hey there Feet. :)

I dont want to interrupt the conversation you and Decka are having, because I'd really like to see him post again. I have been enjoying his post.

So this is just a quick question.

How do you know what a "TRUE" Christian is?

I know you've talked about being told what you have to do and who gave you that information, in regards to being a Christian. What you said doesn't exactly sound so black and white to me. In your post, you make it out to be just that.
As if it were a very simple thing to see who is and isnt a "TRUE" Christian.

so is depending on a Lamborghini for transportation, what's your point?

Not transportation, but just for fun! I just saw pics of the new Gallardo revealed at the Geneva auto show. I like mine more. :banana:

Anyway, I will be the first one to say that Lamborhinis, etc. are all just crap. These are all just material things with no real meanings - that's why I have no problem spending on this stuff because I know it is all short lived and it will come and go. At least I admit it! So life is short, and as I always say if more people spend money, the economy will do better.

Now back to religion: Regarding Jesus, religions, etc., it is amazing what one's mind can make it self believe. Especially if you have it driven into you from a young age. Or some people need a crutch.

I don't believe that a god who is eternal ( that's billions and trillions of years) can be so ridiculous to force us to be on this planet for a measly 70 or 80 years and then judge us. So for 70 or 80 years, you can get ETERNAL DAMNATION ...bwaaahaaahaaahaaahaaha (evil laugh). I know, I know, god has a plan.

I am not saying that I don't believe in god, I just saying that the current "belief" of god makes no sense to me. The current religions are all based on our human mind's limitations.

Hey there Feet. :)

I dont want to interrupt the conversation you and Decka are having, because I'd really like to see him post again. I have been enjoying his post.

So this is just a quick question.

How do you know what a "TRUE" Christian is?

I know you've talked about being told what you have to do and who gave you that information, in regards to being a Christian. What you said doesn't exactly sound so black and white to me. In your post, you make it out to be just that.
As if it were a very simple thing to see who is and isnt a "TRUE" Christian.

good post!!

Not transportation, but just for fun! I just saw pics of the new Gallardo revealed at the Geneva auto show. I like mine more. :banana:

Anyway, I will be the first one to say that Lamborhinis, etc. are all just crap. These are all just material things with no real meanings - that's why I have no problem spending on this stuff because I know it is all short lived and it will come and go. At least I admit it! So life is short, and as I always say if more people spend money, the economy will do better.

Now back to religion: Regarding Jesus, religions, etc., it is amazing what one's mind can make it self believe. Especially if you have it driven into you from a young age. Or some people need a crutch.

I don't believe that a god who is eternal ( that's billions and trillions of years) can be so ridiculous to force us to be on this planet for a measly 70 or 80 years and then judge us. So for 70 or 80 years, you can get ETERNAL DAMNATION ...bwaaahaaahaaahaaahaaha (evil laugh). I know, I know, god has a plan.

I am not saying that I don't believe in god, I just saying that the current "belief" of god makes no sense to me. The current religions are all based on our human mind's limitations.

Actually, Mesk... this was a good post, too... especially for you! I'm impressed.

;)
SMW

Actually, Mesk... this was a good post, too... especially for you! I'm impressed.

;)
SMW


WOW!! Thanks. I was waiting for you to get up all in my face! So, thanks alot! Everyone here believes I am an athiest, but I am not. I believe there might be a higher power, but no real current major religion. But I also believe that the human race needs to transcend past some old beliefs - I think there needs to be a higher level of consciousness.

WOW!! Thanks. I was waiting for you to get up all in my face! So, thanks alot! Everyone here believes I am an athiest, but I am not. I believe there might be a higher power, but no real current major religion. But I also believe that the human race needs to transcend past some old beliefs - I think there needs to be a higher level of consciousness.

LOL! I was just relieved to see you say something besides, "That's a bunch of crap!"

Glad to hear you haven't closed your mind to the possibility that there is a God. Although I understand your wishing the human race could 'transcend those old beliefs and reach a higher level of consciousness', I think that goal can only be achieved by individuals. The 'human race' (at least 80% of them) seem to prefer to believe in ancient teachings. Doubtful any amount of modern day logic can reach that deep spot within believers where faith resides.

I'll take an open mind over a closed one anyday of the week. Happy to see you fit into that first category, Mesk.

;)
SMW

Hey there Feet. :)

I dont want to interrupt the conversation you and Decka are having, because I'd really like to see him post again. I have been enjoying his post.

So this is just a quick question.

How do you know what a "TRUE" Christian is?

I know you've talked about being told what you have to do and who gave you that information, in regards to being a Christian. What you said doesn't exactly sound so black and white to me. In your post, you make it out to be just that.
As if it were a very simple thing to see who is and isnt a "TRUE" Christian.

For me it is someone who follows the teaching of Jesus. I never saw Jesus condem. Jesus ate with hookers and tax collectors. Jesus showed compassion to those most in need. Mother T. Was a good true christian. I am talking about those who want to force others to follow their beliefs. Those who desire the courts be filled with right wingers so they can pass laws which are in sync with their beliefs.

-Feets

LOL! I was just relieved to see you say something besides, "That's a bunch of crap!"

Glad to hear you haven't closed your mind to the possibility that there is a God. Although I understand your wishing the human race could 'transcend those old beliefs and reach a higher level of consciousness', I think that goal can only be achieved by individuals. The 'human race' (at least 80% of them) seem to prefer to believe in ancient teachings. Doubtful any amount of modern day logic can reach that deep spot within believers where faith resides.

I'll take an open mind over a closed one anyday of the week. Happy to see you fit into that first category, Mesk.

;)
SMW

I think there is a god I just do not see him as an angry vengful god who will end the world in fire! The idea that he will raise those who accepted and they will all watch as those who did not burn in agony is not my type of god other than that I am all for it!

-Feetie

Mother T. Was a good true christian.
No, she wasn't.

No, she wasn't.

Borg, please don't come over here disrupting an otherwise peaceful discussion with your SNIDE remarks. You know... like you accused ME of doing only yesterday?

You're a mod and should know better than to throw gasoline in the middle of a group of posters who've, so far, been able to carry on a respectful exchange.

We all know you're an atheist. You don't need to drive that point home.

SMW

___________________________________

It's tough to be young. Nothing quite like the extreme challenges associated with being both excessively naive and boisterously opinionated.

I like your analogy cause it is the same in government work. I can fill out every single form in triplicate and spend weeks going to meetings. And in the end they discover I did not cross one "T" so they refuse to give me my money and I starve to death. Now isn't that a cruel government? That was the point I am making.

-Feets
Great point. This is the problem I have with Christianity. On the one hand they say "IF YOU SIN YOU WILL BE DAMNED ETERNALLY".... And on the other hand they say "Accept Jesus and you will be forgiven". So which is it?

I believe there is a god, but I don't presume to know anything about his nature. However, I really don't believe that, god would condemn humans to eternal damnation for mistakes made in our relatively short physical lives.

In the Vampire Chronicles by Anne Rice, Lestat meets God and the Devil and visits Heaven and Hell. Hell is not a place of eternal punishment in the book, it is a place of teaching - once the souls truly understand their sins, and forgive themselves for them, and forgive God for making them imperfect, they can go to Heaven. (This is a very, very simplified version... But you get the point.) So that seemed like a very logical explanation of what I think Hell would be, if there is such a thing.

In the Vampire Chronicles by Anne Rice, Lestat meets God and the Devil and visits Heaven and Hell. Hell is not a place of eternal punishment in the book, it is a place of teaching - once the souls truly understand their sins, and forgive themselves for them, and forgive God for making them imperfect, they can go to Heaven. (This is a very, very simplified version... But you get the point.) So that seemed like a very logical explanation of what I think Hell would be, if there is such a thing.You might enjoy Heinlein's Job: A Comedy of Justice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job:_A_Comedy_of_Justice), wherein Satan is depicted as a Texas rancher named Jerry.

You might enjoy Heinlein's Job: A Comedy of Justice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job:_A_Comedy_of_Justice), wherein Satan is depicted as a Texas rancher named Jerry.
Thanks for the suggestion!

good post!!

What does that mean?:p

I never asked Jesus to die for me!
So tell me why is MY salvation dependent on my accepting him as my lord and savior? Somebody help me with this one please!

That is just the way that the people who concocted the myth decided to have it work, feelfeetrule.

A huge element of religion/superstition is the control that the priests/shamans/ministers have over those they are delivering the "sacred word" to. If they can cast themselves as the intercessor between the adherent and the godhead, it guarantees their continued prestige and power.

Many religions have absurd aspects to the belief system they've evolved into.....it's just that the triad of religions in question--Judaism, Christianity and Islam-- are decidedly anti-human and quite irrational.
_____________________________

"Now to the root of the matter. The great unmentionable evil at the center of American culture is monotheism. From a barbaric
Bronze Age text known as the Old Testament, three anti-human religions have evolved---Judaism,Christianity and Islam. These are
the sky-god religions. They are,literally, patriarchal---God is the omnipotent father---hence the loathing of women for 2000 years in
those countries afflicted by the sky-god and his earthly male delegates. The sky-god is a jealous god, of course. He requires
total obedience from everyone on Earth, as he is in place not just for one tribe, but for all creation. Those who would reject him
must be converted or killed for their own good. Ultimately, totalitarianism is the only sort of politics that can
truly serve the sky-god's purpose. Any movement of a liberal nature endangers his authority and that of his delegates on earth.
One God, one King, one master in the factory, one father-leader in the family at home."______Gore Vidal

No, she wasn't.
:slap:

Christians have been squabbling over who is a Christian for 2000 years, we don't need trollish comments from the peanut galley.

Christians have been squabbling over who is a Christian for 2000 years, we don't need trollish comments from the peanut galley.
George Carlin sure was right when he said that people want to shut you up when you say something they don't like.

In the Vampire Chronicles by Anne Rice, Lestat meets God and the Devil and visits Heaven and Hell. Hell is not a place of eternal punishment in the book, it is a place of teaching - once the souls truly understand their sins, and forgive themselves for them, and forgive God for making them imperfect, they can go to Heaven..

If I am mot mistaken does Anne Rice in that book tie evolution and religion together as to how things were created? it has been awhile since I read that book,but I think it was her. At least someone in a fiction type book explained how religion and evolution all tied together. I am not saying I believe it,after all this was all being explained to a vampire.... but it was interesting.

George Carlin sure was right when he said that people want to shut you up when you say something they don't like.
trollish behavior really doesn't suit you. there is a rather wide line between "thought provoking" and "intentionally inflammatory". Carlin doesn't cross it, you sought it out.

trollish behavior really doesn't suit you. there is a rather wide line between "thought provoking" and "intentionally inflammatory". Carlin doesn't cross it, you sought it out.
I'm not being intentionally inflammatory. Your psychic powers need some work, Mike. :)

I'm not being intentionally inflammatory. Your psychic powers need some work, Mike. :)
then what the hell was this?


Mother T. Was a good true christian.

No, she wasn't.

you can't demean the life's work of one of, if not the most respected person of the last century and not expect to catch flak for it. do you even remember her?

you can't demean the life's work of one of, if not the most respected person of the last century and not expect to catch flak for it. do you even remember her?
I know exactly who Mother Teresa was. The image the Catholic Church puts out regarding her--she was a saint, she helped so many people, etc.--is something of a fraud, propaganda put out by an organization that was sorely lacking in saints at the time. My main beef with her was her view that suffering was a "gift from God", so she sought out to ensure suffering for the sick, rather than easing pain. I find that sick and sadistic. Read this article (http://www.salon.com/sept97/news/news3.html) and this one (http://www.newstatesman.com/200508220019).

If I am mot mistaken does Anne Rice in that book tie evolution and religion together as to how things were created? it has been awhile since I read that book,but I think it was her. At least someone in a fiction type book explained how religion and evolution all tied together. I am not saying I believe it,after all this was all being explained to a vampire.... but it was interesting.
Yes... Another great idea put out by her books.... These are both in Memnoch The Devil, which I believe is either the 4th or 5th book in the series. But yes, it did say that god created the world and that it evolved and it was all his plan.

Yes... Another great idea put out by her books.... These are both in Memnoch The Devil, which I believe is either the 4th or 5th book in the series. But yes, it did say that god created the world and that it evolved and it was all his plan.
Anne Rice didn't invent Intelligent Design. i'm not sure of the dates, but i think Pope John Paul II issued one of his papal things that evolution and creation were not incompatible a little bit before Memnoch was published. considering the speed that the Holy See moves, the idea has to have been bouncing around for quite some time.

I know exactly who Mother Teresa was. The image the Catholic Church puts out regarding her--she was a saint, she helped so many people, etc.--is something of a fraud, propaganda put out by an organization that was sorely lacking in saints at the time. My main beef with her was her view that suffering was a "gift from God", so she sought out to ensure suffering for the sick, rather than easing pain. I find that sick and sadistic. Read this article (http://www.salon.com/sept97/news/news3.html) and this one (http://www.newstatesman.com/200508220019).
you are aware that is one of the pooest places on earth with running water, and what would have happend to those children without the orphanage or strapped to their bed and wandered out? if they made it to their next birthday, it would have been as a slave.

Anne Rice didn't invent Intelligent Design.
Of course I'm aware of this. The way she described it in the book was quite logical though. The way she writes is phenomenal, and when I read it I often say to myself, "Wow, I could actually believe this was true!"

Of course I'm aware of this. The way she described it in the book was quite logical though. The way she writes is phenomenal, and when I read it I often say to myself, "Wow, I could actually believe this was true!"
Violin and Memnoch where the only 2 books i've gotten as gifts, and i cherish them dearly.

i wonder in she still lives in NOLA?

I know exactly who Mother Teresa was. The image the Catholic Church puts out regarding her--she was a saint, she helped so many people, etc.--is something of a fraud, propaganda put out by an organization that was sorely lacking in saints at the time. My main beef with her was her view that suffering was a "gift from God", so she sought out to ensure suffering for the sick, rather than easing pain. I find that sick and sadistic. Read this article (http://www.salon.com/sept97/news/news3.html) and this one (http://www.newstatesman.com/200508220019).
I don't see anything seriously wrong except the less than stellar treatment of children by staff members in her homes... The money was obviously managed badly (since millions were sitting in the bank instead of being used) but how is that her fault? I still think that she meant well and did a lot of good things, although I certainly don't agree with a lot of her old fashioned views.

Violin and Memnoch where the only 2 books i've gotten as gifts, and i cherish them dearly.

i wonder in she still lives in NOLA?
She lives in California now. I hated Violin. I've read the first 6 of the Vampire Chronicles.

I don't see anything seriously wrong except the less than stellar treatment of children by staff members in her homes... The money was obviously managed badly (since millions were sitting in the bank instead of being used) but how is that her fault? I still think that she meant well and did a lot of good things, although I certainly don't agree with a lot of her old fashioned views.
if you're operating off the interest, dipping into the principle is foolish at best. some ppl just don't understand that.

I appreciate your anticipation involiable.. but I think we all equally give contributions to this discussion, which seems to be a healthy one.

There are a couple of posts I wanna comment on:


I like your analogy cause it is the same in government work. I can fill out every single form in triplicate and spend weeks going to meetings. And in the end they discover I did not cross one "T" so they refuse to give me my money and I starve to death. Now isn't that a cruel government? That was the point I am making.


I, personally, don't interpret a situation happening like that in religion. If you make the ultimate effort and sacrifice, dedicate your life to God, and realize his mercy is the saving grace... I don't think an "uncrossed T", or some random sin that you committed, will prevent you from going to the divine. It's not acts that get you into heaven, it starts from the inside and goes out.

How do you know what a "TRUE" Christian is?

An excellent question, and one I cannot answer. I don't think any human has the right to "judge" other human beings. Do I have my opinions? Yes. I have stated many times that I "extremely dislike" how some Christians come off. They get MAD when you don't accept THEIR beliefs. I cannot say with 100% certainty that I am right. I can ask "What Would Jesus Do", and come to the conclusion that although he was a pacifist and the ultimate, he did come down hard on certain individuals who did not accept. Other times, he was warm as a blanket. I choose to be the pacifist, to let people come to God on their own. I can plant the seed of knowledge, but the rest is up to them on whether it grows or not. Nobody can be "forced" to the word of God. It is a journey you take on your own, in human terms. However, you are never truly alone, because God is with you always, and carries you when you are at your darkest hour.

My point is, We can have educated guesses on what God would want us to do, or how he would want us to act in certain situations. Some are solid as cement, like not killing another human being, or not putting other Gods or materials before him. However, it is not CLEARLY defined on how to address someone who does not accept or even ridicules your faith. So that is why I cannot be 100% on what a TRUE Christian is regarding how a Christian witnesses and speaks of the Lord.

However, a "True Christian" can be defined (off-handedly and probably incorrectly by me) as one who loves God, devotes his life to God, would die in the name of God, and loves his neighbors and enemies. A "True Christian" shines before men (Matthew), and is FROM this world, but not OF this world. I think those are widely accepted definitions of what a "true christian" would be. On the other side, a "true Christian" would also be on the same level as a non-Christian. Both are damned from the start because of their sin. It is God's mercy that allows ANY passage to heaven. While men of faith can start to get a big head when talking in religion, one always has to remember that basic concept.


This is the problem I have with Christianity. On the one hand they say "IF YOU SIN YOU WILL BE DAMNED ETERNALLY".... And on the other hand they say "Accept Jesus and you will be forgiven". So which is it?

I think in the bible it is fairly accurate to say, Dark, that all humans sin, and without Jesus's sacrifice, we would all be "damned eternally". However, it is the rejection of temptation, and the accepting of Jesus into your life, and commitment to establishing a relationship with God through prayer and faith, that allows for forgiveness to be fulfilled. We are all forgiven, but in my opinion, those who reject if, or do not make the commitment, are those who do not enter heaven. Of course, I can't know that for sure.

As for the Vampire Chronicles, I never read the book, but the idea reminds me of the whole death penalty argument, and instead of ridding them of this world, just try to rehabilitate them. I had never heard of that theory, and it is an interesting one. However, I havn't seen any evidence of it in the Bible. Does that mean it is 100% incorrect? no.


Many religions have absurd aspects to the belief system they've evolved into.....it's just that the triad of religions in question--Judaism, Christianity and Islam-- are decidedly anti-human and quite irrational.

*crosses fingers replying to FT's comments*

You may see them as absurd, others many not. That is an opinion. My reason for replying to your comment was to ask.. how are these triad of religions "anti-human"? I can obviously see why religion is "not rational" to those who don't believe beyond the physical, but "anti-human" is a term that has my head turned a bit crooked... please elaborate, if you don't mind.

Yes... Another great idea put out by her books.... These are both in Memnoch The Devil, which I believe is either the 4th or 5th book in the series. But yes, it did say that god created the world and that it evolved and it was all his plan.

it was the first time I ever heard the theory of evolution and religion put together in the same idea. I wish I still had the book. I remember reading it and thinking WOAH... why doesn't this lady get this movement going. It is no more illogical that intelligent design. At least Anne Rice would have some science to support her idea.

*crosses fingers replying to FT's comments*

You may see them as absurd, others many not. That is an opinion.

My comment was not that they were *absurd*.

It was that they are anti-human and irrational.

And THAT is not an 'opinion', but a demonstrable fact.

My reason for replying to your comment was to ask.. how are these triad of religions "anti-human"? I can obviously see why religion is "not rational" to those who don't believe beyond the physical, but "anti-human" is a term that has my head turned a bit crooked... please elaborate, if you don't mind.

They are anti-human because they try to coerce human beings to act in ways that are against their own nature. They preach that sex and the wanting of sex is something 'evil' and sinful, instead of being what humans are biologically designed to do. They preach subjugation for and loathing for women. The Old Testament of the Xtians in particular is exceedingly despicable and inhuman in it's recounting of the condoning of slavery, the hatred for and ordered execution of homosexuals, the wholesale slaughter of entire populaces, infants and all, committed on specific order from that religion's 'god'. It is difficult to imagine anything more anti-human than the hacking to death of innocent women and children by the thousands.

__________________________

If one will read the entire Bible, one will find tales of ignorance, murder, sexual perversions, mass insanity, bizarre laws, and even cannibalism and human sacrifice. It staggers the imagination how anyone in his right mind could read the Bible and believe that it was written by a wise, just, and loving "god". Christians have found biblical scriptures telling them to burn people at the stake, to justify slavery, to oppress and persecute others, and to kill and commit war in the name of their god. Unfortunately, there are some even today who would have us return to the teachings and laws found in the Bible.

There are a couple of posts I wanna comment on:



I, personally, don't interpret a situation happening like that in religion. If you make the ultimate effort and sacrifice, dedicate your life to God, and realize his mercy is the saving grace... I don't think an "uncrossed T", or some random sin that you committed, will prevent you from going to the divine. It's not acts that get you into heaven, it starts from the inside and goes out.


I agree with you on this one. The problem those who I see and ineract with have a very different view. Which is where my comment comes regaring "TRUE" Christians. I love having true christians as friends. I thank you for your comments. I like having this type of discussions. This is what open honest conversations should be like.

-Feets

Hey I heard this on a History Channel special what do you think?

"God gave man TRUTH, then the devil came along and said let me organize that TRUTH for you and he called it Religion."

Hey I heard this on a History Channel special what do you think?

"God gave man TRUTH, then the devil came along and said let me organize that TRUTH for you and he called it Religion."

I like that, Feetie.

I just want to say, it's not just you or anybody else who has problems with the type of people you have problems with...Christians do, too. TRUE Christians don't push agendas. They are simply Christians and will not try to shove anything at you. I have a problem with those who have to shout out their beliefs. If it's real, it will be obvious, without someone trying to force their beliefs on you.

My .02 worth.

I like that, Feetie.

I just want to say, it's not just you or anybody else who has problems with the type of people you have problems with...Christians do, too. TRUE Christians don't push agendas. They are simply Christians and will not try to shove anything at you. I have a problem with those who have to shout out their beliefs. If it's real, it will be obvious, without someone trying to force their beliefs on you.

My .02 worth.

You know for my college graduation I have a copy of a book by CS Lewis given to me by a good friend of mine. The incription says she hoped that I would read the book when I felt the need. I have read it several times. And it is still a treasure in my library!

-Feetie

The movie, Kingdom of Heaven. Demonstrates what people are saying in this thread.

If you have ever seen it you'll more then likely know what I mean.

You can classify me as a Protestant. Thats only because I don't want to pick a denomination. So, I cant actually be called Catholic either. If you cant be called Catholic....

You know.

I do think there are rules to what God wants out of us as Christians. Doesn't matter what kind of Christian you are. There is one rule to being a Christian in my eyes and that is to accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior.

After that I believe it's your job as a Christian to get as close as possible to God. There is really only one way to do that. Do what he says he wants you to do. Which is in the bible.
I'm not saying to make a nuisance of yourself or to go out of your way to make your life miserable. All I'm saying is there are things Christians should be doing to make God happy in their minds eye, according to the bible.

I believe that it's just as important to accept the love God has for you as it is to acknowledge that love and respect it.

In so respecting it we shouldn't forget what God expects out of us.
Again, I'm not trying to tell you exactly what you should do or how your life should be.
All I'm saying is this.
We are talking about a slippery slope here.
We cant throw away everything God wants from us because we believe some people are doing it wrong.
Maybe what they're saying is correct to a degree and they're simply going way overboard with it. Maybe they're entirely wrong or maybe they're entirely right. I cant say.
All I know is, we cant throw away what God wants out of us because of them.
If you're in touch with God, you're going to know what God wants.
God doesn't want us to judge, just like Feet said.
But thats what we're doing here in this post. Aren't we making the decision here and now on who is and isn't a good or bad Christian?

The movie, Kingdom of Heaven. Demonstrates what people are saying in this thread.

If you have ever seen it you'll more then likely know what I mean.

You can classify me as a Protestant. Thats only because I don't want to pick a denomination. So, I cant actually be called Catholic either. If you cant be called Catholic....

You know.

I do think there are rules to what God wants out of us as Christians. Doesn't matter what kind of Christian you are. There is one rule to being a Christian in my eyes and that is to accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior.

After that I believe it's your job as a Christian to get as close as possible to God. There is really only one way to do that. Do what he says he wants you to do. Which is in the bible.
I'm not saying to make a nuisance of yourself or to go out of your way to make your life miserable. All I'm saying is there are things Christians should be doing to make God happy in their minds eye, according to the bible.

I believe that it's just as important to accept the love God has for you as it is to acknowledge that love and respect it.

In so respecting it we shouldn't forget what God expects out of us.
Again, I'm not trying to tell you exactly what you should do or how your life should be.
All I'm saying is this.
We are talking about a slippery slope here.
We cant throw away everything God wants from us because we believe some people are doing it wrong.
Maybe what they're saying is correct to a degree and they're simply going way overboard with it. Maybe they're entirely wrong or maybe they're entirely right. I cant say.
All I know is, we cant throw away what God wants out of us because of them.
If you're in touch with God, you're going to know what God wants.
God doesn't want us to judge, just like Feet said.
But thats what we're doing here in this post. Aren't we making the decision here and now on who is and isn't a good or bad Christian?

Well Inviolable. My point is just that. I have a problem accepting Jesus as the son of God. I think he was a great teacher. But I do not accept his Divinity. And I am told my many that is my doom! No matter how good I am if I have not accepted that I am in the lake of fire come revolations! I just have such a hard time buying that!

Isn't God who gave us our brain to think for ourselves? And if we do and use it not to accept him then we are burned? That is a little unfair to me. If I gave you a car and said you can only drive it on the second sunday of the month and if I caught you driving it any other day I would kill you. I doubt you would take the car!

-Feets

Isn't God who gave us our brain to think for ourselves? And if we do and use it not to accept him then we are burned? That is a little unfair to me. If I gave you a car and said you can only drive it on the second sunday of the month and if I caught you driving it any other day I would kill you. I doubt you would take the car!

-Feets
Yeah, but thats not what God is saying when he tells us to accept Jesus Christ.
He's saying, your boat is sinking. Heres a life jacket, another boat and a tropical island to hang out on.



If someone told you to accept Jesus and then worry about going to hell every day after you accept him, then you got the wrong message.
Thats what it sounds like you're saying above.

You're not only saving yourself from hell by accepting Jesus, you're giving yourself a better life.
Please dont read into that. I am in no way telling you that all Christians have a better life then you do because they are Christians and you're not.
All I'm saying is, whatever your life is now God can make it better.
I am also very plainly saying, with out Jesus I personally believe you will die and go to hell. And I'm not saying you will die immediately.
If you think he was just a prophet, thats great, I'm not trying to stand in the way of that. I am simply disagreeing with you.

You may also have a standard view of what hell is, fire and brimstone. Devils with pitch forks and what not.
I cant say that that is hell. No one can. There isnt a single solitary Christian that can tell you hell is anything other then the absence of God.

Would you really want to be absent from someone who loves you enough to die for you?

That to me is the Christian message plain and simple.

If you dont believe it. Who am I to change your mind?

The movie, Kingdom of Heaven. Demonstrates what people are saying in this thread.

If you have ever seen it you'll more then likely know what I mean.




I agree,that movie was great,sad but really great. I need to watch it again,thanks Inviolable ;)

The whole concept of "died for your sins" is just a guilt trip! That is all...

oh my god....he DIED for YOUR sins!

The whole concept of "died for your sins" is just a guilt trip! That is all...

oh my god....he DIED for YOUR sins!
I know this is a stupid question but just to understand your mind set.
Whats to be gained from it?
What do billions of people get from religion and what you consider to be a guilt trip?

I know this is a stupid question but just to understand your mind set.
Whats to be gained from it?
What do billions of people get from religion and what you consider to be a guilt trip?

Well, "Christianity" as a religion was formed only AFTER pretty much the person Jesus died. So, back then, the guilt trip could've been used to get the masses to convert and keep them in control.

Now, it still works. One of the basics of "Christianity" is to "spread the word". A Guilt Trip is a wonderful way to spread the word to get people to convert. "Oh my godddd.... he DIEEEED for my sins...wahhh wahhhh"

What do people get our of religion? I believe its different for each person. Some get safety/crutch, others feel it gives them answers to the meaning of life, universe, etc. We go crazy thinking about "why are we here, what is the universe, what happens after we die", so religion gives them an easy answer to all these questions.

Also, we are social beings. It is human nature to want to belong to a group so we can identify ourselves, so religion also provides a "group" that we can belong and identify with.

Yeah, but thats not what God is saying when he tells us to accept Jesus Christ.
He's saying, your boat is sinking. Heres a life jacket, another boat and a tropical island to hang out on.



If someone told you to accept Jesus and then worry about going to hell every day after you accept him, then you got the wrong message.
Thats what it sounds like you're saying above.

You're not only saving yourself from hell by accepting Jesus, you're giving yourself a better life.
Please dont read into that. I am in no way telling you that all Christians have a better life then you do because they are Christians and you're not.
All I'm saying is, whatever your life is now God can make it better.
I am also very plainly saying, with out Jesus I personally believe you will die and go to hell. And I'm not saying you will die immediately.
If you think he was just a prophet, thats great, I'm not trying to stand in the way of that. I am simply disagreeing with you.

You may also have a standard view of what hell is, fire and brimstone. Devils with pitch forks and what not.
I cant say that that is hell. No one can. There isnt a single solitary Christian that can tell you hell is anything other then the absence of God.

Would you really want to be absent from someone who loves you enough to die for you?

That to me is the Christian message plain and simple.

If you dont believe it. Who am I to change your mind?

If I am expected to make only one choice that will save my life why allow me the chance to mess up? Secondly if God is all knowing he should know that I will make the choice not to accept his son and therefore doomed so does he allow me to life just to see me torture me at the end of my life? Help me out here!!

-Feets

If I am expected to make only one choice that will save my life why allow me the chance to mess up? Secondly if God is all knowing he should know that I will make the choice not to accept his son and therefore doomed so does he allow me to life just to see me torture me at the end of my life? Help me out here!!

-Feets

and it's all pre-destined anyway.

Supposedly god already picked who would be in heaven and who wouldn't. So why try to live your life by a set of rules and laws, just to miss the boat in the end anyway?

If he doesn't already have your number, you're not going.

If I am expected to make only one choice that will save my life why allow me the chance to mess up? Secondly if God is all knowing he should know that I will make the choice not to accept his son and therefore doomed so does he allow me to life just to see me torture me at the end of my life? Help me out here!!
Lots of people believe in a non-omni anything god, therefore solving all these logical conundrums.

In fact, a lot of religious people who really don't care one way or another to begin with often go down a bad road in discussions with atheists when they are made to feel obliged to defend some omniscience, omnipotence, or omnibenevolence that their god supposedly has.

I think unconsciously, most religious monotheists really just think of their god as All Mighty. Which has non of the logical problems an omni god produces. An All Mighty god is just powerful enough to do whatever he pleases, but not so that he can defy logic, not so that he is obliged by some unseen moral force to be "good", not so that he knows all and sees all or has planned everything. Just some great being really.

Lots of people believe in a non-omni anything god, therefore solving all these logical conundrums.

In fact, a lot of religious people who really don't care one way or another to begin with often go down a bad road in discussions with atheists when they are made to feel obliged to defend some omniscience, omnipotence, or omnibenevolence that their god supposedly has.

I think unconsciously, most religious monotheists really just think of their god as All Mighty. Which has non of the logical problems an omni god produces. An All Mighty god is just powerful enough to do whatever he pleases, but not so that he can defy logic, not so that he is obliged by some unseen moral force to be "good", not so that he knows all and sees all or has planned everything. Just some great being really.


I am a big believer in a God who has little effect on this world.

Well, "Christianity" as a religion was formed only AFTER pretty much the person Jesus died. So, back then, the guilt trip could've been used to get the masses to convert and keep them in control.

Now, it still works. One of the basics of "Christianity" is to "spread the word". A Guilt Trip is a wonderful way to spread the word to get people to convert. "Oh my godddd.... he DIEEEED for my sins...wahhh wahhhh"

What do people get our of religion? I believe its different for each person. Some get safety/crutch, others feel it gives them answers to the meaning of life, universe, etc. We go crazy thinking about "why are we here, what is the universe, what happens after we die", so religion gives them an easy answer to all these questions.

Also, we are social beings. It is human nature to want to belong to a group so we can identify ourselves, so religion also provides a "group" that we can belong and identify with.
Yes but why?
You have to think, Jesus was going against the Temple in a time when the Temple was the law. It was part of the Kings palace.
The early Christians did not have it easy, at all. The apostles were hung on the cross, chopped up and beheaded, fed to the lions, turned into slaves...
That would have to be some really heavy guilt trip.

If you wanted an "easy answer" I'd say Christianity was farthest from easy as you could get. Quite a few of the early Christians had to go into hiding. Just to stay alive.
You're telling me, they risked their existence on a guilt trip or quick answers?

If I am expected to make only one choice that will save my life why allow me the chance to mess up? Secondly if God is all knowing he should know that I will make the choice not to accept his son and therefore doomed so does he allow me to life just to see me torture me at the end of my life? Help me out here!!

-Feets
He allows you a chance at life. It's fair. If you had never existed how would that be any better?

If you wanted an "easy answer" I'd say Christianity was farthest from easy as you could get.

I know! The endless energy and constant waste of mindspace required to overcome the overwhelming cognitive dissonance presented by a belief in the Christian god must be terribly debilitating.

I know! The endless energy and constant waste of mindspace required to overcome the overwhelming cognitive dissonance presented by a belief in the Christian god must be terribly debilitating.

2 thousand years ago when it meant you'd be killed for believing it, it was.

2 thousand years ago when it meant you'd be killed for believing it, it was.
I doubt the threat was anywhere as grave as Christians claim it was.

I think it's a political blankie for Christians who have gotten comfortable with always having the majority opinion and feel no compunctions claiming that majority as veracity. They can say, "well we were persecuted too!" and avoid the accusation. Never in their lifetimes, their parents lifetimes, their grandparents lifetimes, have Christians ever had to feel persecuted. Maybe in some far off bumfuck somewhere like Indonesia Christians got persecuted from time to time, but nowhere in any actual civilization.

I think Christians like to trade this little nugget of information without ever really studying to see if Christians were indeed heavily persecuted for their faith upon fear of death. Yet, even if their ancestors were, they could never understand what it was like or use it for anything more than a political blankie.

Then again, maybe Christians should leave the real studying to the real scholars. Whenever I see a Christian studying something it's assuredly done without the proper methodology, without the proper mindset, and it turns out just like the Da Vinci code.

*cue image of fat, middle aged white tourists clogging up European buses huddling around their copies of The Da Vinci Code claiming to all locals that they're "code breakers."

I doubt the threat was anywhere as grave as Christians claim it was.

I think it's a political blankie for Christians who have gotten comfortable with always having the majority opinion and feel no compunctions claiming that majority as veracity. They can say, "well we were persecuted too!" and avoid the accusation. Never in their lifetimes, their parents lifetimes, their grandparents lifetimes, have Christians ever had to feel persecuted. Maybe in some far off bumfuck somewhere like Indonesia Christians got persecuted from time to time, but nowhere in any actual civilization.

I think Christians like to trade this little nugget of information without ever really studying to see if Christians were indeed heavily persecuted for their faith upon fear of death. Yet, even if their ancestors were, they could never understand what it was like or use it for anything more than a political blankie.

Then again, maybe Christians should leave the real studying to the real scholars. Whenever I see a Christian studying something it's assuredly done without the proper methodology, without the proper mindset, and it turns out just like the Da Vinci code.

*cue image of fat, middle aged white tourists clogging up European buses huddling around their copies of The Da Vinci Code claiming to all locals that they're "code breakers."

Strange...

It was a rant, not something to be taken particularly seriously.

Contrary to popular belief, Christians were not systematically persecuted by officials of the Roman empire. It was more like if someone was pissing people off politically, and they were found to be a Christian, that was the excuse used to execute them. But there was never any generalized program of Christian killing or anything.

Contrary to popular belief, Christians were not systematically persecuted by officials of the Roman empire. It was more like if someone was pissing people off politically, and they were found to be a Christian, that was the excuse used to execute them. But there was never any generalized program of Christian killing or anything.
Don't you watch the history channel?

Don't you watch the history channel?
Yes. I'm not saying Christians weren't brutalized and killed or that they didn't have to hide their religions. I'm just saying that the government of the Roman Empire had far more important things to worry about and they weren't engaging in any sort of systematic genocide of Christians. The early Christian persecutions were more akin to the Salem witch hunts than, say, the Holocaust. If someone didn't like another person for whatever, they might accuse them of being a Christian, they'd find some "evidence" and they'd kill them.

He allows you a chance at life. It's fair. If you had never existed how would that be any better?

Why would I care?

Yes. I'm not saying Christians weren't brutalized and killed or that they didn't have to hide their religions. I'm just saying that the government of the Roman Empire had far more important things to worry about and they weren't engaging in any sort of systematic genocide of Christians. The early Christian persecutions were more akin to the Salem witch hunts than, say, the Holocaust. If someone didn't like another person for whatever, they might accuse them of being a Christian, they'd find some "evidence" and they'd kill them.
I like you DF :D

Don't you watch the history channel?

Just watched "Jesus: The Missing History." Great show anyone else see it?

Why would I care?
If you never existed I guess you wouldn't care.

Just watched "Jesus: The Missing History." Great show anyone else see it?
It was on last night.

I like you DF :D
I like you too, Inviolable. :)

Just watched "Jesus: The Missing History." Great show anyone else see it?
I think I saw that on the TV listings last night... I didn't watch it because there was something else on that I was planning to watch. I bet it was good though. Hopefully they'll run it again (they usually do on the History Channel, right?)...

I like you too, Inviolable. :)


I think I saw that on the TV listings last night... I didn't watch it because there was something else on that I was planning to watch. I bet it was good though. Hopefully they'll run it again (they usually do on the History Channel, right?)...

Yes it should be on again! It was great very scientific!

Dark!!

"Well behaved women sledom make history." One of my all time favorite quotes.

"A woman without a man is like a fish without a bycycle!"