Are We Becoming A Society That Doesn’t Fight Back? (http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/are_we_becoming_a_society_that_doesnt_fight_back/)

In a recent post about the campus shooting at Northern Illinois University one reader, who lives near the campus, posted this (http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/another_massacre_at_a_gun_free_zone_college_campus /#c260008):
I am discouraged that no one took their books, laptops, anything and just threw it at the guy, no one fought back. It’s that passivity that troubles me.
That’s a great point. It seems that far too often modern Americans have an instinct to cower or run away when threatened instead of fighting back. Especially younger Americans, and based on my personal experience I’d have to say that it’s being learned in our schools.
When I went to school fighting, even when fighting back against a bully who was threatening you, was enough to warrant suspension. Maybe even a call to the police and/or expulsion. If you argued to the administrator that you were defending yourself, even if you could prove that you had no part in starting the fight and were simply trying to fend of an attack, it didn’t matter. That you were fighting was wrong, and thus worthy of punishment.

I think the kids who grew up with that approach to discipline are the same ones who don’t fight back as adults. Now, granted, I can’t blame an unarmed student for fleeing from a gunman. Nobody wants to die, but there is certainly a lack of a “take command” attitude when it comes to personal safety.

We’re taught in school that defending ourselves is worthy of punishment. As adults, we’re told by politicians that we can’t be trusted with our own guns. We’re told that the police will protect us, and that when in trouble we should simply wait for them to arrive.

That’s not right. We, as Americans, need to reassert our individual liberties a bit more. We have an inalienable right to life and liberty and should take the utmost pride in defending that ourselves. Certainly we should look to the authorities for help when that’s feasible, but we need to get back to the time when our citizens fought back when attacked instead of scattering like the sheep we’ve become.

running toward danger in an un-natural act, that's why we value those who do just a wee bit more.

Self preservation is a natural act, suggesting any student should 'have a go' at another one standing with two handguns is dangerous and totally irresponsible.

Students go to school to learn. Its the duty of the faculty to make sure they are safe doing so.

I am discouraged that no one took their books, laptops, anything and just threw it at the guy, no one fought back. It’s that passivity that troubles me.

Self preservation is a natural act, suggesting any student should 'have a go' at another one standing with two handguns is dangerous and totally irresponsible.

Yeah..........or just incredibly stupid.

"Hey, some guy just came into the classroom blasting away with a shotgun!.....this shit will NOT stand, I tell you!......I know!, I need to throw my geology book at him from 20 feet away..........surely THAT will straighten his ass out!!"

There's no such thing as safe. Sorry, but the simple fact is that ANYONE could flip at any time and there is simply not a damn thing anyone can do to completely stop it. Nothing.

Not even our heavily guarded VIP's within the country are safe. Ronald Reagan, anyone? There is no defense against someone who is willing to sacrifice themselves in the process of a homicidal rage.

I agree with the OP that we're suffering as a society by teaching the masses that you can count on the authorities to handle all of life's ills. It's simply not the truth. Just look at how natural disasters are handled. Most times, they're not.

As adults, we’re told by politicians that we can’t be trusted with our own guns.

That's odd. I have to wonder which politician he's taking about here.

I have never heard any politician suggest that. And I follow the gun control issue very closely.

I have heard some politicians at various times saying that there need to be controls on handguns........

.......but never that 'Americans cannot be trusted with guns'.

There is no movement whatsoever that I have ever heard anything about to the effect that *Americans cannot be trusted with guns*. :@@: :@@:

If there were such a movement or an agenda being pushed, the populace in this country would not be in possession of more than 230 million firearms.

Sheesh.

There's no such thing as safe. Sorry, but the simple fact is that ANYONE could flip at any time and there is simply not a damn thing anyone can do to completely stop it. Nothing.

Not even our heavily guarded VIP's within the country are safe. Ronald Reagan, anyone? There is no defense against someone who is willing to sacrifice themselves in the process of a homicidal rage.

I agree with the OP that we're suffering as a society by teaching the masses that you can count on the authorities to handle all of life's ills. It's simply not the truth. Just look at how natural disasters are handled. Most times, they're not.

Interesting statement, HaVoK. Obviously, you've never experienced a natural disaster, have you? In parts of Mexico, people have been known to wait for up to 3 months for first-responders to show up after a devastating event. That's never happened in this country.

The only reason one shouldn't count entirely on the authorities to handle all of life's ills is because there aren't enough of them to protect EVERYBODY all the time. That simply IS the truth.

Actually, I have experienced a natural disaster. I volunteered two weeks of my life to help communities that were affected by hurricane Katrina. I was down in Mississippi helping to clear debris and run new waste and water lines in rebuilt houses. I saw the communtity working together and being proactive with their problems. I also watched (through news reports) how New Orleans residents waited for big brother to come in and take care of them and how that was handled.

I guess i wasnt clear in my meaning. I meant that it's always better to help yourself first and hope for help, than to assume help is on the way and be devestated when it's doesnt arrive in a timely manner.

That's odd. I have to wonder which politician he's taking about here.

I have never heard any politician suggest that. And I follow the gun control issue very closely.

I am curious about that too.
I would love to know who exactly liquid was talking about.

Somehow I doubt we will ever get an answer though.

Somehow I doubt we will ever get an answer though.

Why Dharma why ever would you say such a thing? If I didnt know you better I would assume your trying to be catty with my intentions,almost to the level of taking a little jab at me.....


There are times I start a thread or reply to a thread and like most people on AFN I dont get a chance to get back here right away,and when I do the thread is already buried,or there are much more interesting threads I take my focus on. Sometimes when I do revisit the thread I will start to read and see it either going in a direction I am not interested in,or it will be jacked by foolsworth's insanity,or a pissing contest with other random members.... at that point I simple close the thread and move on.

From your words it seems maybe you think I am shying away from explaining or backing up my own words and thoughts. I would think you of all people would know me much different. IN the future..... If you pose a question or comment to my words and are awaiting a reply to the point of needing some sort of closure.... feel free to Private message me with a link to your question,and I will surely re-visit the mentioned thread..

Now to answer YOU question at hand.... First lets recap....

Originally Posted by LiquidFork
As adults, we’re told by politicians that we can’t be trusted with our own guns.

Originally Posted by Freethinker
That's odd. I have to wonder which politician he's taking about here.

I have never heard any politician suggest that. And I follow the gun control issue very closely.

Originally Posted by dharmabum
I am curious about that too.
I would love to know who exactly liquid was talking about.

Somehow I doubt we will ever get an answer though.


O.K considering the post was written as an opinion,It is clear I am not going to provide a link where a politician has spoke those exact words.(sorry Freethinker.... This is my OPINION.. o·pin·ion /əˈpɪnhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngyən/ Pronunciation Key (http://www.allforums.net/) - Show Spelled Pronunciation (http://www.allforums.net/)[uh-pin-yuhhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngn] Pronunciation Key (http://www.allforums.net/) - Show IPA Pronunciation (http://www.allforums.net/) –noun 1.a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty. 2.a personal view, attitude, or appraisal. 3.the formal expression of a professional judgment: to ask for a second medical opinion. 4.Law. the formal statement by a judge or court of the reasoning and the principles of law used in reaching a decision of a case. 5.a judgment or estimate of a person or thing with respect to character, merit, etc.: to forfeit someone's good opinion. 6.a favorable estimate; esteem: I haven't much of an opinion of him. ))


If you use comprehension of the post i find it hard to figure out besides a chance for a snide comment why you would be confused with my meaning. The whole idea of gun control is a group of people,either politicans passing a bill,or an anti gun group marching in the streets. They are implying and saying in so many worpoliticiansds that As an American born citizen I cannot be trusted with firearms,,,,thus laws and protests will be developed to stop me from making that choice. I am trusted in the eyes of the public to own a automobile and drive responsibly,thus there is no ban on owning automobiles... I am trusted to consume alcohol at a reasonable level,thus there is no prohibition. I am trusted to eat dinner every night thus there is no law against missing the meal.... I am trusted not to drink bleach...thus there is no law banning bleach. When it comes to guns we are not trusted and for some reason people believe we need the government to once again explain to us what is good for us to do and not do.

O.K considering the post was written as an opinion,It is clear I am not going to provide a link where a politician has spoke those exact words.(sorry Freethinker.... This is my OPINION

Okay.

No problem LF.

But since it is your stated *opinion* that there are ""politicians telling us that we can’t be trusted with our own guns"", wouldn't it logically follow that you ought to be able to name at least a couple of those politicians...............?!?!?!?

You know. Unless what you're really doing here is admitting just how completely full of shit that 'opinion' was and how baseless the claim was.

ROTFL.

It takes a truly dishonest person to try to obfuscate the point like you just did, and whine --"Well, <sniff sniff> I was only giving an opiiiiiiiiinion!""

The whole idea of gun control is a group of people,either politicians passing a bill,or an anti gun group marching in the streets. They are implying and saying in so many worpoliticiansds that As an American born citizen I cannot be trusted with firearms,,,,thus laws and protests will be developed to stop me from making that choice.

Gee.

I guess if there were these purported laws and protests being developed that are preventing you or any other law abiding American citizen from making the choice to own a gun or not, you'd have a point.

But you are not being prevented from doing so.

The fact that there are more than 230 million firearms in public hands in this country stands as a testament to just how full of shit your ""They are implying I cannot be trusted with firearms"" claim is.

No one, and certainly no politician (as demonstrated by the fact that you cannot name any) is preventing you or any other law abiding American citizen from buying or possessing a firearm.

If there's a retail gun store in the town you live in, just walk inside that business. Walk up to the counter and indicate that you want to purchase a rifle. Or a shotgun. I can guarantee you that they will sell you a firearm of some kind.

Okay.

No problem LF.

But since it is your stated *opinion* that there are ""politicians telling us that we can’t be trusted with our own guns"", wouldn't it logically follow that you ought to be able to name at least a couple of those politicians...............?!?!?!?

Any politician that supports harsh measure of gun control. There are so many of them and it is such wide spread knowledge I didnt think I had to list them one by one. What is wrong with you and dharma these days? You need everything spelled out for you. COMPREHENSION...Do you need for them to bring back school house rock for you?

Unless what you're really doing here is admitting just how completely full of shit that 'opinion' was and how baseless the claim was.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE tell me your are not even going to attempt to mention ANYTHING about opinions being full of shit OR baseless claims!!! That is the bread and butter of 100% of the things you post on here.... that or you will toss in a reference from some nut job like jakowski. I dont know what is worse... being clueless or supporting the words of someone else who is clueless....

ROTFL.
You seem to be on the floor rolling around alot. Somehow I have a hard time picturing you even smiling let alone in hysterical laughter rolling about on a carpet.

It takes a truly dishonest person to try to obfuscate the point like you just did, and whine --"Well, <sniff sniff> I was only giving an opinion!""

My main post was to dispute something with Dharma... Before you put your two bits in (which I never do mind... everyone is welcome) and lead your never evening Inquisition for a link or a quote,I had to make it clear the words where my opinion,and made it clear EXACTLY what I meant.... yet you ask me the same silly question... See above reference to COMPREHENSION



I guess if there were these purported laws and protests being developed that are preventing you or any other law abiding American citizen from making the choice to own a gun or not, you'd have a point.

But you are not being prevented from doing so.

Well I feel for me to sit and wait till a bill or such is passed I should kinda voice my personal opinion now. Proactive VS reactive. If you need further detail here is a link before you ask.
http://proactivechange.com/motivation/thoughts/reactive.htm


The fact that there are more than 230 million firearms in public hands in this country stands as a testament to just how full of shit your ""They are implying I cannot be trusted with firearms"" claim is.. So you deny there are groups and political people out there who are working to limit and even ban the use of some fire arms,and make it harder and more costly to purchase one? Because all I was saying is the government is treating my like a child by posing any such limits on me. If they trusted us all there would be no need for the focus on gun control.

No one, and certainly no politician (as demonstrated by the fact that you cannot name any) is preventing you or any other law abiding American citizen from buying or possessing a firearm...
See above reference and link (your welcome Sedan) to proactive VS reactive thinking.

control.

If there's a retail gun store in the town you live in, just walk inside that business. Walk up to the counter and indicate that you want to purchase a rifle. Or a shotgun. I can guarantee you that they will sell you a firearm of some kind.

No where did I ever imply that I couldn't not purchase a gun. I was speaking about the governments role in gun control. Dont make me call you out on the ghost argument thing again. I swear when I converse with you I need to break out pre written flashcards so I dont repeat myself...

I feel for me to sit and wait till a bill or such is passed I should kinda voice my personal opinion now. Proactive VS reactive.

If there were these purported laws that you've made claims about that are preventing you or any other law abiding American citizen from making the choice to own a gun or not, you'd have a point.

But you are not being prevented from owning a firearm.

Hence, no politician is telling you that you can not be trusted with a firearm. Have there been laws passed regulating handgun onwership? Yes.

But are you being prevented, in any way, shape, form or fashion from owning a firearm?

No.

Walk up to the counter of the gun store nearest you and indicate that you want to purchase a rifle. Or a shotgun. I can guarantee you that they will sell you a firearm of some kind.

If there were these purported laws that you've made claims about that are preventing you or any other law abiding American citizen from making the choice to own a gun or not, you'd have a point.

Well yeah and for me to have that point I would of had to say people were trying to prevent me from owning a gun at all. There is a difference you do realize between banning firearms and gun control. I am speaking on gun control not a banning of firearms.

But you are not being prevented from owning a firearm. Ghost argument. call Casper....I am not biting.

Hence, no politician is telling you that you can not be trusted with a firearm. . When a politician is telling me how i can obtain a firearm,where I can/cannot obtain a fire arm,and how many days I need to wait before obtaining a fire arm,,,,i consider than intrusion of my own better judgment as the Gov saying they dont trust me with the freedom to purchase a fire arm as i please like I am allowed to do with dozens of other potentially dangerous objects.

Have there been laws passed regulating handgun ownership? ummmmm... that was my point

But are you being prevented, in any way, shape, form or fashion from owning a firearm? That was not my point nor did I even mention that.

Originally Posted by Freethinker
But are you being prevented, in any way, shape, form or fashion from owning a firearm?

No.


That was not my point nor did I even mention that.

You clearly implied that that was the situation that exists in America by making the claim that there are ""politicians telling us that we can’t be trusted with our own guns"".

I would not be at all surprised to find out that you have a firearm of some kind, right this minute, in the house in which you are sitting.

No where did I ever imply that I couldn't not purchase a gun.

If you are now freely admitting that you can purchase a gun, then the absurdity of the --""there are politicians telling us that we can’t be trusted with our own guns""-- assertion stands clearly revealed.

You clearly implied that that was the situation that exists in America by making the claim that there are ""politicians telling us that we can’t be trusted with our own guns"".

I would not be at all surprised to find out that you have a firearm of some kind, right this minute, in the house in which you are sitting.

I do own two hunting rifles and a hand gun. None of them are currently at my residence. However I do have a CO2 pellet gun i DO keep in my house in a metal box on the top self of the hallway closet. Did I prove or disprove what ever it was you were implying ??

I do own two hunting rifles and a hand gun. None of them are currently at my residence. However I do have a CO2 pellet gun i DO keep in my house in a metal box on the top self of the hallway closet. Did I prove or disprove what ever it was you were implying ??

The fact that you DO own multiple firearms proves that the --""there are politicians telling us that we can’t be trusted with our own guns""-- assertion was a complete absurdity.

The fact that you DO own multiple firearms proves that the --""there are politicians telling us that we can’t be trusted with our own guns""-- assertion was a complete absurdity.

Jesus... Are you that thick headed. I was complaining about GUN CONTROL. Just because I own firearms doesn't mean I didnt have to jump through hoops like a chimp to get them.

yeah you can go to walmart and buy a shotgun... at least in texas.... Each and every year they protest and complain about it. I would not be surprised if before too long you cant. Cant get a gun at a gun show in Texas anymore either. In Texas they are talking about extending the waiting period before you can buy handguns... This is the shit I am talking about. Government interference where it is not only un needed but unwelcome

just do what most people do. look in the goddamn for sale ads and buy one from your neighbor. jeez.

From your words it seems maybe you think I am shying away from explaining or backing up my own words and thoughts.

No, I thought you would shy away from substantiating this claim you made... and I was right.

Originally Posted by LiquidFork
As adults, we’re told by politicians that we can’t be trusted with our own guns.

You failed to name even one politician who said such a thing.

I was complaining about GUN CONTROL.

Yes, and you were over exaggerating while doing it.
There is nothing whatsoever wrong with gun control.
And this is coming from someone who owns several guns and has a CCW permit.

Yes, and you were over exaggerating while doing it.
There is nothing whatsoever wrong with gun control.
And this is coming from someone who owns several guns and has a CCW permit.

I am a gun owner too. I love skeet shooting, and I support the 2A.

But it is idiotic --in light of the fact that we Americans have access to over 230 million guns-- to assert that there is some nefarious band of politicians who are intent on stopping people from owning guns because ""they are saying that we can’t be trusted with our own guns"".

As you note, he cannot name one politician who has said "the people cannot be trusted with guns".

They might place restrictions on handguns, but the fact remains that virtually every citizen in America has an unbelievable degree of easy access to an absolute multitude of different types of firearms.

To suggest that Americans are being somehow prevented from owning guns because, well .... "we Americans aren't allowed to own guns because the politicians do not trust us" -- is preposterous.

FT, if the government told us to get rid of guns, you'd be crying about a government, military takeover.. and frankly i'd be worried myself.

Since you own a gun, are you pro-gun? Are you hand in hand with those "God-Guns-and Guts" rednecks down south that you bash on a daily basis?