EVERY night, Lou Dobbs gets on CNN and drones on and on about how the middle class in America is shrinking. It is disappearing along with our jobs at the textile mill.

Woe is us.

Having actually worked at a textile mill, I say the people in Bangladesh are welcome to make my shirts.

I'll sit here in my smoke-free, air-conditioned-in-the-summer office where I don't have to worry about brown lung.

If Dobbs is wondering where the middle class went, in New York City, they have moved on up to the deluxe apartments in the sky.

Everywhere else, they have moved into large houses in the suburbs with big yards.

National Public Radio reported that the average U.S. home in 1950 was 983 square feet.

By 1970, that had expanded to 1,500 square feet.

In 2004, the average home in the United States was 2,349 square feet.

You could fit two of those 1950 homes in that 2004 home and still have room for the family SUV.

Most of today's homes have some sort of air-conditioning. The Census Bureau reported 58 percent of homes in 2004 had central air-conditioning, and 25 percent had room air-conditioners.

In 1950? It is so difficult to type when one is laughing.

The family car that seemed to need a repair every few months has become two vehicles that seem to make it to 100,000 miles with only oil changes and new tires every 40,000 miles, not 14,000.

I won't go into how little we spend on food and utilities, or how computer and other gadgetry have improved as the prices dropped to the point that every teenager now seems to come with an iPod and a cell phone. Americans have never had it so good.

The middle class has become the rich.

And the poor?

In 2003, one-eighth of Americans - 12.5 percent - lived below the federal line of poverty.

But the Census Bureau reported that 46 percent of households listed as officially living in poverty actually lived in homes they owned.

And, the Census Bureau reported, 76 percent had air-conditioning.

And, the Census Bureau reported, 75 percent had a car.

And, the Census Bureau reported, 30 percent had two cars.

And, the Census Bureau reported, 73 percent had a microwave.

And the Census Bureau reported, 33 percent had a dishwasher.

And on and on. What were once luxuries for the rich are now the "necessities" of life - at least to listen to Lou Dobbs and other peddlers of the snake oil about the disappearing middle class.

In his "Living Large" video on the Internet, comedian Drew Carey found the middle class. At a lake. Enjoying boats they own. Which they hauled by the SUVs they own.

I see that Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., is going to base his presidential campaign on the fact that the rich make some obscene multiple of the wages of the average worker.

I say, good for the rich.

But why should I care how much money is in the wallets of the two richest men in America - Bill Gates and Warren Buffett - both supporters of the Obama campaign?

So what? I have my central air. And I drive a 2005 Mustang convertible - just like Mitt Romney.

As the old Chock Full o'Nuts jingle used to say, "Better coffee a millionaire's money can't buy."

Most Americans already enjoy most of what Gates and Buffett have.

Without having to be worth more than $50 billion. Each.


http://dailymail.com/Opinion/DonSurber/200802150329

I am in full agreement.

welcome to america
everyone connected
talking
but not
relating
body and eyes
left
out.

the more you sit the worse you feel, the worse you feel the more you sit.

I see that Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., is going to base his presidential campaign on the fact that the rich make some obscene multiple of the wages of the average worker.

I say, good for the rich.
Fuck yeah! Economic inequality widespread through our country is downright AWESOME!

...

Fuck yeah! Economic inequality widespread through our country is downright AWESOME!

...
Economic inequality is the very basis of capitalism. You bet your ass it's awesome.

Some people have never had it so good.

The rest? Not so much...

http://media.npr.org/programs/newsnotes/features/2007/08/New%20Orleans1.jpg

Economic inequality is the very basis of capitalism.

That is why unregulated capitalism is a bad thing.

Economic inequality is the very basis of capitalism. You bet your ass it's awesome.
“The mother of revolution and crime is poverty”- Aristotle

I am in full agreement. Your in full agreement with that conservative windbag Don Surber?

That is why unregulated capitalism is a bad thing.
Sure unregulated capitalism isn't great. It needs some regulation.
“The mother of revolution and crime is poverty”- Aristotle
Fast fact: I consider "Aristotelean" an insult. Aristotle was an idiot.

dharmabum,

The posting of that picture was low and slimey even for you. That is a picture of destruction immediately after a major hurricane hit New Orleans and not indicative of how people live in the United States as you tried to make it seem.

I didn't think it possible but you have sunk even lower in my esteem.

[QUOTE=Frogger]dharmabum,

The posting of that picture was low and slimey even for you. That is a picture of destruction immediately after a major hurricane hit New Orleans and not indicative of how people live in the United States as you tried to make it seem.


*****************************************
How do you know that Wasn't Jamaica.Jamaica been hit often in the last
10 years.PLus the Dude was Like... a Rastafari,if ya ask me.
Even if ya don't !

How do you know that Wasn't Jamaica.Jamaica been hit often in the last
10 years.PLus the Dude was Like... a Rastafari,if ya ask me.
Even if ya don't !If you had checked the image properties you could have seen it was from an npr.org feature on New Orleans.

If you had checked the image properties you could have seen it was from an npr.org feature on New Orleans.

I believe I can make out the words on that little property placard :



I Am Cool

Some people have never had it so good.

The rest? Not so much...

http://media.npr.org/programs/newsnotes/features/2007/08/New%20Orleans1.jpg
you'd think if he could afford to have his hair braided, he could afford a shirt...or even a belt.

I believe I can make out the words on that little property placard :



I Am Cool
i concur

If you had checked the image properties you could have seen it was from an npr.org feature on New Orleans.

If they can create and modify in '08 then why th'ell can't they
also clean-up the doggone yard.
That Hurricane happened in '05.

you'd think if he could afford to have his hair braided, he could afford a shirt...or even a belt.

Really? How much did he pay to have his hair braided and how would you know?

His sister or mom or girlfriend probably did it for him.

It doesn't matter if he paid to have his hair braided. What matters is trying to foist off a picture of hurrican destruction as indicative of the way some Americans live.

Alas an increasing number of Americans 'never had it so bad'.

Poverty in America comes in an unusual form.

'You cant own your own home and be in poverty'-well it seems you can.
'You cant own a car and be in poverty'-well it seems you can.

In 2006 of the top 20 states with poverty, Mississippi came in tops with a whopping 21.1 % of its population described as living in poverty.

Of the top 20, ten were what I would call the 'deep South'.

[1] Mississippi 21.1%
[3] Louisiana 19.0 %
[5] Arkansas 17.3 %
[9] Texas 16.9 %
[10] Alabama 16.6 %
[11] Tennessee 16.2 %
[12] South Carolina 15.7 %
[13] Georgia 14.7 %
[13] North Carolina 14.7 %
[17] Missouri 13.6 %

the others,

[2] District of Colombia 19.6 %
[4] New Mexico 18.5 %
[6] West Virginia 17.3 %
[7] Kentucky 17.0 %
[7] Oklahoma 17.0 %
[15] Arizona 14.2 %
[15] New York 14.2 %
[17] Montana 13.6 %
[17] South Dakota 13.6 %
[20] Michigan 13.5 %

Apart from some North/South divide, it looks like some Americans are doing well, unfortunately many are not.

Poverty is increasingly becoming just a number in America. Real poverty is mostly a state of mind here, as the jobs, the training, access to loans, are all there. People for various reasons elect not to take advantage of them, or do so poorly.

Since when are Kentucky and West Virginia not part of the south?

(EDIT: Unless you're talking Civil War loyalties, as in the capitalized South, which case West Virginia would not apply.... As far as the culture in WV though, they are for sure a southern state. D.C., although it is further south than much of West Virginia, is certainly a northern city in a cultural sense.)

Paul,

Poverty is relative. Try telling someone from Cambodia that a person who owns his own home, a color t.v., and a car is poverty stricken.

Nappy is right. While some people are poor due to circumstances beyond their control the majority have had a rather intrusive hand in causing their own poverty. They don't finish school. The have children out of wedlock. They don't get and keep a job. When they have a job they take off the day after pay day or show up late.

Not everyone can be rich but there is no valid reason for the majority of the poor to be poverty stricken. Poverty is more a cultural phenomenon than anything else. That is why it is so prevelant in the South where the work ethic is different. Too many people are satisfied with 'getting by' and not improving their lot in the world.

I think the "poverty as cultural phenomenon" thing does have a LOT of merit to it. And of course poverty is definitely relative. Good post, Frogger.

I wouldn't be surprised if, when you looked at the numbers, I lived below the poverty level. Yet I have oodles of disposable income, own my own truck, had payed more on my lease a month at one point than many homeowners do on their mortgages before I got a roommate, have a cell phone, Internet access, eat $10 lunches and go out to a restaurant at least once every two weeks.

Paul,

Poverty is relative. Try telling someone from Cambodia that a person who owns his own home, a color t.v., and a car is poverty stricken.

Nappy is right. While some people are poor due to circumstances beyond their control the majority have had a rather intrusive hand in causing their own poverty. They don't finish school. The have children out of wedlock. They don't get and keep a job. When they have a job they take off the day after pay day or show up late.

Not everyone can be rich but there is no valid reason for the majority of the poor to be poverty stricken. Poverty is more a cultural phenomenon than anything else. That is why it is so prevelant in the South where the work ethic is different. Too many people are satisfied with 'getting by' and not improving their lot in the world.

******************************
Our Country's Poor would be considered Rich in most parts of the 3rd
world.Find me a Poor who hasn't a TV.Or some Food in a refrig.
Heat in the winter,and Air conditioning in the Summer.Or at least
ONE AC unit.
A Phone or many phones.
Probably cable and a Computer and some Boom box.
Shoes that are relatively new or pairs of shoes.
Same with clothes.
Show me where a Newspaper in this Land,reported a case of
Starvation.
We have Free water,everywhere.Even Free Clothes { Salvation Army
and Goodwill }.Free access to Heat and AC.
Anyone who tells you that are Poor are terribly off,are in effect terribly
short on the sense God Gave Geese.

I think a lot more people in the USA go hungry then one might think! http://stuffedandstarved.org/drupal/node/255

Poverty is increasingly becoming just a number in America. Real poverty is mostly a state of mind here, as the jobs, the training, access to loans, are all there. People for various reasons elect not to take advantage of them, or do so poorly. Well I'm not sure about poverty being a state of mind. When you go to bed hungry at night is that a state of mind? When you can't afford your medical bills is that a state of mind. I think certainly many people are poor because of high medical bills, to many low paying jobs, to many single-parent families, a shortage of jobs because many jobs are taken by immigrants. And let's not forget drug and alcohol abuse. That is certainly a big cause of poverty.

Well I'm not sure about poverty being a state of mind. When you go to bed hungry at night is that a state of mind? When you can't afford your medical bills is that a state of mind. I think certainly many people are poor because of high medical bills, to many low paying jobs, to many single-parent families, a shortage of jobs because many jobs are taken by immigrants. And let's not forget drug and alcohol abuse. That is certainly a big cause of poverty.
Medical bills, I'll give you that one, but at the same time, they don't affect your credit all that much if you don't pay them. Go to school, get some skills, and get a job where you can pay them. Low paying jobs, work two, until you can afford to take classes. Single parent families, plenty of people do it. Give the kids to your parents or other responsible person until you get back on your feet. It's done all the time. Shortage of jobs, go to school and get some skills in a high demand field. Drug and alcohol abuse, a state of mind. Get un-addicted.

Yes Id agree, poverty is relative to where you live.

I believe the percentages I showd were the 'family income' ones.

Id need to check again, but the baseline of income was,I believe $42,000pa.

I think $42,000 is way above the poverty line for a family of four...

EDIT: I looked it up. For the 48 contiguous states and D.C., the poverty line for a family of four is $21,200 per year (it's slightly higher in Hawaii and Alaska).

Here's an interesting picture from Wikipedia:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/89/Percent_below_poverty_line.png

Medical bills, I'll give you that one, but at the same time, they don't affect your credit all that much if you don't pay them. Go to school, get some skills, and get a job where you can pay them. Low paying jobs, work two, until you can afford to take classes. Single parent families, plenty of people do it. Give the kids to your parents or other responsible person until you get back on your feet. It's done all the time. Shortage of jobs, go to school and get some skills in a high demand field. Drug and alcohol abuse, a state of mind. Get un-addicted.


Good post, Nappy.

OK DF and Frogger, this is not a political thread so we wont fall out, infact it helps me understand American society which Im interested in, if Im wrong about something-let me know.

Take your average family in some unemployment blackspot right.
Now these people are on welfare and cant pay Healthcare, cant afford further education, what does Washington offer thrse people.????????

They already gave them welfare and education through high school (although I'd be willing to say that the proportion of high school drop-outs on welfare is much higher than that of the general population). Why should Washington give them more?

Also, "can't afford further education"? If that's the case then they are very, very, very poor. You can go to community college for cheap (or for even cheaper to one of those "universities"/tech schools advertised on TV), and if you look for them there are scholarships, grants, financial aid, and work study all over the place to help pay for it.

OK so wherer do these scholarships,grants,financial aid,and work study come from?
Federal Funding or some charitable organisation?

OK so wherer do these scholarships,grants,financial aid,and work study come from?
Federal Funding or some charitable organisation?
Both. The federal government gives substantial financial aid and grants, some scholarships and grants come from the schools themselves, and also from charitable organizations and individuals. Work study is offered by the school. At my school the students definitely take advantage of it - everyone who works in the book store and the snack bar are students, as well as assistants in the offices and the math/science and writing centers.

However, I would like to see higher education be free like school through 12th grade is, so whenever the government gets the deficit under control I'd certainly support that.

EDIT: More info... Scholarships and financial aid are both need based and merit based - meaning that you can qualify for them by having a low enough income or by having good enough academics. Many scholarships are also specialized by subject, especially in fields like nursing and teaching, which are in dire need of new graduates, so scholarships are often offered in these majors to attract students to them. Other scholarships depend on the person - for example, there are many grants for minorities, older adults who are going back to school, and students who go to schools close to where they live.

Medical bills, I'll give you that one, but at the same time, they don't affect your credit all that much if you don't pay them. Go to school, get some skills, and get a job where you can pay them. Low paying jobs, work two, until you can afford to take classes. Single parent families, plenty of people do it. Give the kids to your parents or other responsible person until you get back on your feet. It's done all the time. Shortage of jobs, go to school and get some skills in a high demand field. Drug and alcohol abuse, a state of mind. Get un-addicted.
I'm inclined to agree.. but at the same time I think alot of people respond to information fed thru the media and follow the example of the government over the last decade which is, it's ok to be up to your eyeballs in debt..
and that is a a kind of ..stupid is as stupid does.. scenario..:confused:
again I feel this contributes to the dumbing down of America..

Great post, Jim.

This is a interesting site. http://www.povertyinamerica.psu.edu

Medical bills, I'll give you that one, but at the same time, they don't affect your credit all that much if you don't pay them. Go to school, get some skills, and get a job where you can pay them. Low paying jobs, work two, until you can afford to take classes. Single parent families, plenty of people do it. Give the kids to your parents or other responsible person until you get back on your feet. It's done all the time. Shortage of jobs, go to school and get some skills in a high demand field. Drug and alcohol abuse, a state of mind. Get un-addicted. Well unpaid medical bills are the second leading cause of bankruptcy in the nation. And just saying for people addicted to alcohol or drug to to just get unaddicted does not really solve the problem. I think alcholism is considered a disease. I would not call a disease a "state of mind". Not everyone has parents to take care of their children or another responsible person. So it is not always easy to do that. A single parent trying to work and go to school and raise a family. I certainly can see how it would be hard for a single parent with children. Not everyone has parents or a responsible person to take care of someone else's children while they work and go to school. Not saying that it is impossible but certainly hard to do.

I think $42,000 is way above the poverty line for a family of four...

EDIT: I looked it up. For the 48 contiguous states and D.C., the poverty line for a family of four is $21,200 per year (it's slightly higher in Hawaii and Alaska).
Well that counts me out. I'm single and I make more than that. $441 a week minus taxes to raise a two kids with does seem a bit low, but more than do-able, considering that you'd probably get some form of welfare/food stamps at that income level and pay next to nothing in taxes.

Well unpaid medical bills are the second leading cause of bankruptcy in the nation.
And? Declare bankruptcy and the bills go away.

And just saying for people addicted to alcohol or drug to to just get unaddicted does not really solve the problem.
I'd like to hear your take on how to solve it.

I think alcholism is considered a disease. I would not call a disease a "state of mind".
This is a very debatable fact, pushed mostly by twelve-steppers.

Not everyone has parents to take care of their children or another responsible person. So it is not always easy to do that. A single parent trying to work and go to school and raise a family. I certainly can see how it would be hard for a single parent with children. Not everyone has parents or a responsible person to take care of someone else's children while they work and go to school. Not saying that it is impossible but certainly hard to do.
I never said it was easy. Why does life have to be easy to not be in poverty? Lot's of people who aren't in poverty don't have easy lives. Is life supposed to be a fucking video game?

OK DF and Frogger, this is not a political thread so we wont fall out, infact it helps me understand American society which Im interested in, if Im wrong about something-let me know.

Take your average family in some unemployment blackspot right.
Now these people are on welfare and cant pay Healthcare, cant afford further education, what does Washington offer thrse people.????????


If they are on welfare they are already receiving government largesse. They will also be receiving food stamps. No one is refused health care whether they can afford it or not. While they might not be able to pick their doctor they can always use the emergency room or a free clinic.

Education is free up to grade twelve. The poor also receive free lunch while in school and in most school districts free breakfast.

There are scholarships available to people who can't afford college. They can also do what people like es347fan, Phyrex, Jester and I have done and enter the military and take advantage of the G.I. Bill. Besides, no one is guaranteed a college education. There are people not on welfare who don't go to college.

There are people not on welfare who don't go to college.
That's right. My dad and my step-mom didn't go to college, and together they make $100,000 a year - that's 5 times the poverty threshold for our family size (although my dad does support my brothers who don't live with us as well).

EDIT: And I may once again have to stress that my mother, who is college educated, has been in and out of poverty for as long as I can remember... the only thing she's gotten from a college degree is student loans to pay off.

Nappy, well I do realize that classifying alcoholism as a disease is debatable but I don't think it is twelve-step people trying to push it. ( And by the way twelve-step programs don't work all that well). The theory of alcoholism as a disease has been around a lot longer then any 12 step programs. The American Medical Association,American Psychiatric Association,American Hospital Association, American Public Health Association, National Association of Social Workers, and the American College of Physicians all classify "alcoholism" as a disease. So the medical community in general considers it a disease.

According to Wikipedia, JAMA defines it as a disease, but most everyone else uses it to refer to alcohol dependence. If a dependence is a disease, then anybody who uses tobacco is diseased.

Well I have read up on it. Show me where the medical community in general does not consider alcoholism a disease. And I don't know the cure for it but just to say "get over it" does not help anyone. And by the way, I have never said life is suppose to be like a video game. Whatever the hell that means.

Well I have read up on it. Show me where the medical community in general does not consider alcoholism a disease. And I don't know the cure for it but just to say "get over it" does not help anyone. And by the way, I have never said life is suppose to be like a video game. Whatever the hell that means.
The entire part I quoted had you going on and on about how it wasn't easy to not make fifty grand a year. It's stupid. "Get over it," does not help anyone, sure, but it's not society's problem to treat substance abuse. But here's the thing. We do. Plenty of resources exist to help people fight addiction.

The entire part I quoted had you going on and on about how it wasn't easy to not make fifty grand a year. It's stupid. "Get over it," does not help anyone, sure, but it's not society's problem to treat substance abuse. But here's the thing. We do. Plenty of resources exist to help people fight addiction. where did I say it wasn't easy to make fifty grand a year? And you might not think it is society's problem to treat substance abuse but I do. That's just a matter of opinion.

And you might not think it is society's problem to treat substance abuse but I do.
I kindly request that you re-read the bolded part of my post.

The entire part I quoted had you going on and on about how it wasn't easy to not make fifty grand a year. It's stupid. "Get over it," does not help anyone, sure, but it's not society's problem to treat substance abuse. But here's the thing. We do. Plenty of resources exist to help people fight addiction.

I believe in some Calif. communities like San Fransico,if one can
prove their an Alcoholic,they get a monthly stipend as being a
disabled.Unlike methadone,where ya show up for yer morning
dose of pink/orange fluid,ya get Moola.
Um...you never said where yer from.?
West Canada nearest Timbuktu.?

Um...you never said where yer from.?
West Canada nearest Timbuktu.?
Yeah.

Yeah.

Wood dat be mores toward the half of Timbuktu where the
Sun don't shine,or the Sun done shines.

The sun never shines where my posts come from.

The sun never shines where my posts come from.

In a Cloistered Monastery.?
Or back of Ralph's market on Vine,between dumpster 5 & 6,
and under all the cardboard.

I kindly request that you re-read the bolded part of my post. I know that we have help for people but you said it was not society's problem to treat substance abuse. I realize the help is there. Now about the part about me going on about it not being easy to make fifty grand a year. Where did I say that?

So it is not always easy to do that.
I certainly can see how it would be hard for a single parent with children.
Not saying that it is impossible but certainly hard to do.
Please explain to me why I should continue this discussion.

Please explain to me why I should continue this discussion. Why should I do that when you have not even answsered my previous question?

:rolleyes: Where are the 2007 statistics???? Yours, Sheryl Lynn

http://brillig.com/debt_clock/

My share of the national debt comes to a bit more than $30,600. I consider that a bargain for the joy and priveledge of living in the United States.

So your cheque is in the mail.

Alright Frogger, I get it. I love living here too. Love, Sheryl Lynn :hug:

My share of the national debt comes to a bit more than $30,600. I consider that a bargain for the joy and priveledge of living in the United States.

coff it up or i come to your house and blow it up.

I do cough it up. I pay it in installments every time I pay my taxes.

not likely. you probably handed my family that big assed refund this year.