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dharmabum
02-15-2008, 01:12 AM
This is getting out of control.

Police and Tasers: Hooked on Shock
by Naomi Klein

The past couple of weeks have been rocky on the stock market, but one company that hasn’t been suffering too much is Taser International. At the end of January, its stock jumped by an impressive 8 per cent, and it’s even higher today.

Matthew McKay, a stock analyst at Jeffries & Co. in San Francisco, cites a simple cause: news that the Toronto Police Services Board plans to buy 3,000 new Taser electroshock weapons, at a cost of $8.6 million for gear and training. If the deal goes ahead, tasers would become standard issue weaponry for all of Toronto’s frontline officers, right next to their handcuffs and batons.

On Wednesday night, I participated in a public forum about the prospect of a fully taser-armed police force, organized by the Toronto Police Accountability Coalition. One speaker, who had a history of psychiatric illness, told the room: “We’re worried because we’re the people who are going to get shocked.”

It’s a concern grounded in experience. According to Toronto Police Chief Bill Blair’s own analysis, in 2006, city cops deployed the devices in 156 incidents. In all but nine, the subject appeared “to have a mental disorder” or was in some sort of “crisis.”

Several speakers at the forum pointed out that $8.6 million would be better spent keeping people out of crisis - by opening more beds and providing better mental health and addiction services. Instead, four homeless shelters were closed last year, at a loss of 258 beds.

But the most troubling remark of the evening was this: “Why is this happening now?” The timing is indeed baffling. It was only three months ago that video of the death of Robert Dziekanski at the Vancouver International Airport caused an international furor. The tragedy exposed the most prevalent misconception about tasers: that they are used primarily as an alternative to guns. As former Toronto mayor John Sewell told me, “the taser is not the thing that replaces the gun, it’s what replaces all the other things that police might do other than use a gun, like talk to you.”

That certainly appears to have been the case with Mr. Dziekanski. When the RCMP approached him, they made no attempt to calm the unarmed Polish man, or to discover the source of his extreme agitation. Within 25 seconds, he was getting zapped.

Mr. Dziekanski’s death also put a spotlight on the other post-taser deaths, the ones not caught on film. According to Amnesty International, 310 people in North America have died after being shocked with a taser since 2001.

Were these deaths caused by the device or by something else? Taser’s aggressive lawyers make it tough to know. The company has been hit with roughly a hundred wrongful death and injury lawsuits and claims it hasn’t lost one yet. But in August, Bloomberg News reported on “several mysterious dismissals” - instances where the plaintiffs asked for the cases to be thrown out. Though Taser denies paying off all its accusers, it admits to paying in some, “where the settlement economics … were significantly less than the cost of litigation.”

Taser has consistently claimed that something else is causing the deaths. The company points to a report saying that that death by electrocution happens within seconds. Yet in many cases, subjects have died minutes, even days, after being shocked.

A recent study may explain the discrepancy. Trauma researchers at Chicago’s Cook County Hospital conducted an experiment on 11 pigs, zapping each for 40 seconds; then zapping them again 10 or 15 seconds later. (This mimics how tasers are actually used, since Amnesty reports that those who have died after being Tasered were frequently “subjected to multiple or prolonged shocks.”) The study found that all the pigs exhibited heart problems after the shocks and two of them died of cardiac arrest, one three minutes later.

Taser CEO Rick Smith has brushed off the study, saying human research is more relevant. However, according to Bob Walker, one of the lead researchers, it shows “that the effect of the taser shot can last beyond the time when it’s being delivered.”

So back to that question: Why now? In addition to the troubling new scientific evidence and the disconcerting lawsuits, there are several public investigations in Canada that are still ongoing. In addition to those sparked by the Dziekanski death, New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Nova Scotia are all conducting taser reviews.

Surely it would be wise for Toronto’s police chief to wait for those findings before ordering a seven-fold taser increase. But something more powerful than reason appears to be at play here, and I believe it has to do with the seductive promise of no-touch policing.

No other method of controlling unruly suspects offers police the same kind of all-encompassing, instant effect. Talking, calming, negotiating are all messier and take time. Other physical techniques put officers’ own bodies at risk.

Then there is the taser. The company boasts that its technology, which allows electrified darts to be fired from more than 10 meters away, “temporarily overrides the command and control systems of the body.” At the push of a button, even the strongest, angriest subject drops to the floor. In a way, firing a taser is the maximum power one person can exert over another. As an Ottawa Police officer reportedly said after tasering protesters at the ministry of immigration back in 2003: “Less mess, more fun.”

Few would argue with an officer’s right to use an electroshock weapon when lives are in danger and the only alternative is a gun. Many Toronto police officers, particularly those on the Emergency Task Force, clearly use them with restraint.

Yet there is also plenty of evidence that some officers get hooked on shock. In Edmonton, in 2001, reports of taserings averaged less than once a week. Three years later, they were coming in daily. In another part of the country, a mother in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia called police when she and her 17-year-old daughter were having an argument. Three officers showed up and tasered the teen in her own bed. In a recent court ruling, the judge called these actions “very disturbing and disconcerting.”

It may well be possible to prevent shock-happy policing with tighter controls. Yet, despite repeated calls for stricter regulations for police, Taser International is racing to get its devices in the hands of civilians, marketing the product as not just safe but fun. In the United States the company has been aggressively pushing its line of C2 “personal protectors” - available in pink, leopard print, and in holsters with built-in MP3 players. (The weapon is nicknamed the “iTaser.”) Tupperware-style taser parties are springing up in the suburbs of Arizona.

Taser International is a company whose executives present themselves as serious experts in public safety. Yet it has launched this foray into fashion at the very moment when the safety of its devices is being questioned on multiple fronts. Valentine’s Day is coming and Taser’s website is busily hawking the C2 in flaming red. “Love her? Protect her,” goes the slogan.

This is what corporations do: whatever they can get away with to sell more product. From Taser International, we should expect nothing less.

From our police we have a right to expect much more.

Swordlol
02-15-2008, 01:55 PM
I have to say, that "tasers don't replace guns, they replace everything else a police might do, like talking" really connected with me. I have to say out of all the things the media blows out of propotion, this is one thing that they've been doing right, I'm against tasers. Its the fact the media thinks the are blowing this out of proportion, when in reality this issue is getting a fair amount of spot light.

HaVoK
02-15-2008, 02:31 PM
I have to admit, the study that found that every pig that was tased had heart problems after should be looked into immediately.

DarkFantasy96
02-15-2008, 02:44 PM
Agreed, Sword and Havok.

LionelHutz
02-15-2008, 10:20 PM
I'm against tasers.

I still think they're necessary because they're way better than getting out the gun and killing someone, but they really need to be treated similar to guns in that they need to be a last resort. It seems at times that they're becoming an easy out for lazy cops.

DarkFantasy96
02-15-2008, 10:28 PM
I still think they're necessary because they're way better than getting out the gun and killing someone, but they really need to be treated similar to guns in that they need to be a last resort. It seems at times that they're becoming an easy out for lazy cops.
You're right.

BorgHunter
02-15-2008, 10:29 PM
Taser hysteria is the only thing that people are "hooked" on. Like anything else: Guns, batons, pepper spray, they can all be used properly or improperly. Tasers are useful tools for both law enforcement and personal protection. Blaming the taser for people using them improperly is ridiculous.

Vilepagan
02-15-2008, 10:29 PM
I still think they're necessary because they're way better than getting out the gun and killing someone, but they really need to be treated similar to guns in that they need to be a last resort.

Liberal freak! :taser:

LionelHutz
02-15-2008, 10:36 PM
Liberal freak! :taser:

Borg started it! Why are you picking on me?

dharmabum
02-15-2008, 11:07 PM
Taser hysteria is the only thing that people are "hooked" on. Like anything else: Guns, batons, pepper spray, they can all be used properly or improperly. Tasers are useful tools for both law enforcement and personal protection. Blaming the taser for people using them improperly is ridiculous.

Did you read about the study that showed heart problems in pigs after they were tasered?

BorgHunter
02-15-2008, 11:09 PM
Did you read about the study that showed heart problems in pigs after they were tasered?
Indeed. Unfortunately, that correlation doesn't really exist in humans, unless you have a congenital defect that makes you susceptible. And that defect is very rare.

dharmabum
02-15-2008, 11:25 PM
Indeed. Unfortunately, that correlation doesn't really exist in humans, unless you have a congenital defect that makes you susceptible. And that defect is very rare.

I beg to differ. I know of no studies that back up this idea that you must have a "congenital heart defect" in order to be in any danger from a taser shock.

Smith was the third person in Washington to die after being shocked with a Taser; others died in Silverdale and Olympia. Nationwide, there have been 69 such deaths since 2000, raising concerns about a new breed of electric shock devices in widespread use by law enforcement.

In dozens of cases nationwide, autopsies showed the victims died of a heart attack, cocaine intoxication or underlying causes such as heart disease. But autopsies in at least five cases found Tasers were a contributing factor in the deaths.

The company that manufactures Tasers insists they are safe and non-lethal, and some medical professionals think some of the deaths may be the result of a combination of physical restraint and drug-induced agitation. But Amnesty International and other groups say such deaths are troubling and shouldn't be overlooked as more law enforcement officers use Tasers in a wide variety of situations.

In a report issued yesterday, Amnesty International said Tasers couldn't be ruled out as a factor in seven of 74 deaths in the United States and Canada it asked a forensic pathologist to review. That underscores the need to ban such non-lethal weapons until it is known whether they're responsible for the deaths, it said.

Swordlol
02-16-2008, 10:50 AM
I'm not sure, but can't tasers potentially kill someone if they have a pacemaker?

HaVoK
02-16-2008, 10:53 AM
I'm not sure, but can't tasers potentially kill someone if they have a pacemaker?
Tasers have killed people who have no prior history of heart problems. Periodically, someone will post a link to a news story about someone dying from being "tazed".

BorgHunter
02-16-2008, 11:00 AM
I'm not sure, but can't tasers potentially kill someone if they have a pacemaker?
"A standard five-second TASER X26 application does not affect the functional integrity of pacemakers and defibrillators." http://europace.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/eum058?ijkey=v5zONNAwEzrMZP5&keytype=ref
I beg to differ. I know of no studies that back up this idea that you must have a "congenital heart defect" in order to be in any danger from a taser shock.
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0730taser30.html

That link is the only citation I can find where a taser has been cited as the primary cause of death. There are about 250 deaths total involving tasers (the taser not necessarily even contributing to the death), since 2001. Considering how widespread the weapon has become in that time, that is a remarkably low number. It's safe enough that, even though my mom died at 42 due to heart disease, I'd be willing to be shot with a taser as part of some sort of demonstration. Probably wouldn't be any fun at all, but I'm pretty confident that they're safe. Lots safer than guns, anyway, and no one suggests taking guns away from police officers.

Swordlol
02-16-2008, 11:08 AM
Alright thanks for the answer, good to know.

dharmabum
02-16-2008, 03:31 PM
"A standard five-second TASER X26 application does not affect the functional integrity of pacemakers and defibrillators." http://europace.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/eum058?ijkey=v5zONNAwEzrMZP5&keytype=ref

What about multiple or sustained applications?

BorgHunter
02-16-2008, 05:15 PM
What about multiple or sustained applications?
How often would that be required? The only instance I can think of is if you're trying to bring down a crazed person on PCP or something.

You're really missing my point, Dharma. You can kill someone with anything if you misuse it. The problem is not in the weapon used, but rather in how it's used.

dharmabum
02-16-2008, 10:13 PM
How often would that be required?

The real question that you should be asking is, How often does that happen?
According to this study (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/specials/tasers/), 78% of the time the person being tasered is unarmed and 49% of the time they get shocked two or more times. 29% of the time they get shocked three or more times.


You're really missing my point, Dharma. You can kill someone with anything if you misuse it. The problem is not in the weapon used, but rather in how it's used.

I understand your point perfectly and I disagree, the problem is both the weapon and how it is being used.

dharmabum
02-16-2008, 10:16 PM
Heart expert warns about using Tasers
UCSF doctor says jolt can interrupt pumping of blood
Sabin Russell, Chronicle Medical Writer

Wednesday, January 5, 2005

When 50,000 volts of electricity from a Taser surge across the body, it can instantly incapacitate a person -- more safely than a blow from a police baton or a blast of pepper spray, its manufacturer contends.

But cardiologists are concerned that, in certain cases, the device might also interrupt the rhythm of the human heart, throwing it into a potentially fatal chaotic state known as ventricular fibrillation.

Rather than pump blood in sequence through its four chambers, a heart in ventricular fibrillation writhes uncontrollably, wiggling like a bag of worms. It is a common cause of sudden death.

Dr. Zian Tseng, a cardiologist at UCSF, believes Tasers are potentially dangerous because a jolt of electricity, at just the right moment in the heartbeat cycle, can trigger ventricular fibrillation.

He ought to know. He uses a precisely timed jolt to throw the hearts of his patients into ventricular fibrillation on a regular basis.

More. (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/01/05/BAGOGAL4CS17.DTL)

BorgHunter
02-16-2008, 10:43 PM
Heart expert warns about using Tasers


More. (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/01/05/BAGOGAL4CS17.DTL)
From what I understand about tasers, the current is about 18 A for 10 microseconds. Can a current for that short a time period, applied to the skin, really induce fibrillation? That's not a rhetorical question, by the way; I'm not a doctor (dammit Jim), so I really don't know.

As for your post prior to that, Dharma, bad regulations on taser use are really outside of the scope of this discussion. If the taser use is unlimited and not used with restraint by police officers, that should be fixed, but it's not really relevant to the discussion we're having here.

A question, Dharma. Given that tasers offer a substantially lower risk of injury and death than a baton, would you support taser use only in situations where police are presently allowed to use batons?

Decka
02-16-2008, 11:09 PM
There was a happening near cleveland recently where a kid was shot by a cop... he was in an abandoned house, and was behind a drape of plastic, so you could see him but not well. The swat team was there, I guess something big happened, can't remember what, but they told the kid to get on the ground. He didn't and raised something in his hand.. the cops shot him, and he died. It turned out that he was holding a pillow.

Who is at fault here? Cops have families too, and you never know WHAT someone is carrying and in WHAT kind of mental condition they are in. The kid didn't cooperate, made a move, and he paid for it. I pretty much sum it up as "he killed himself". I made the remark that rubber bullets should be used more often, but nobody was at the situation. Nobody but the cops know how fast the kid moved, his body motion, his body stance... all have to be taken into account to assess the potential threat.

As for tazers... they are a much safer option than guns. Most of the time they used on people who don't do what the cops tell them to do. If I speed, and i get pulled over, I'm gonna get a ticket. That's the law. If a cop tells you to "get down"... you just "get down".. that moment is not the time to "prove a point", you are pretty much fucking yourself if you don't do what the cops tell you to do.

dharmabum
02-18-2008, 06:34 AM
From what I understand about tasers, the current is about 18 A for 10 microseconds. Can a current for that short a time period, applied to the skin, really induce fibrillation? That's not a rhetorical question, by the way; I'm not a doctor (dammit Jim), so I really don't know.

Did you read the article? I posted a link to it.
Doctors say yes, it can.


As for your post prior to that, Dharma, bad regulations on taser use are really outside of the scope of this discussion. If the taser use is unlimited and not used with restraint by police officers, that should be fixed, but it's not really relevant to the discussion we're having here.

Since I started this discussion I am going to have to go ahead and disagree with you there. Misuse of tasers is at the heart of the discussion.


A question, Dharma. Given that tasers offer a substantially lower risk of injury and death than a baton, would you support taser use only in situations where police are presently allowed to use batons?

No. Tasers are supposed to be a non-lethal alternative to the gun.
As someone said earlier in this thread, police are now using tasers instead of everything else they used to do, like talking.