Unless you've been living in a cave, I'm sure you've heard of the testimony Clemens and his former trainier, MacNamee, gave before Congress. I'm also hoping you heard the congressmen light them up, put them in their place, and ridicule them.

I think these congressmen are out of line. While they asked many ideal questions, they also took the time to call MacNamee a Liar, say they don't believe Clemen's testimony, and also ridicule Clemens on the final hearing. I find it quite ironic that politicians are calling athletes "liars".

However, I think Clemens IS guilty, but that is just MY opinion. I don't look up to the guy, and I honestly trust his trainer more than him, based on all of the results of all other players who have been charged with Steroid/HGH use.

I think the congressmen were "posturing" in front of the attentive-drawn case, and I think Roger Clemens is full of BS.. so I think they are both wrong. BUT.. I started this poll to hear what YOU think, and for you to give your thoughts.

A Few Things you should know:
- Andy Pettite, Roger Clemens' training partner with MacNamee and former teammate, gave an afidavit saying Clemens used HGH and Steroids.
- Roger Clemens' wife was confessed to have used HGH, which was provided by MacNamee.

The thing is MacNamee listed a number of players who he supplied, 4 of whom acknowledged the allegations. Even more players have kept mum. The ONLY alleged user to deny is the biggest name on the list, Clemens. Besides that, I don't know what MacNamee's motivation is for smearing Clemens - fame? That seems like a tenuous motivation for me.

Besides that, you had a renowned doctor testify that he had never seen B-12 injections (which is what Clemens claims he received) result in the injury Clemens alleges. Rather, the doctor said such an injury is linked to steroid use.

And finally, you have Pettite testifying that Clemens acknowledged taking HGH. Clemens says his friend Pettite misheard. Right.

Clemens is guilty as hell.

It's hard to believe Clemens just based on his career. Since when do players start having their best statistical seasons in their late 30s/early 40s? It's not hard to believe that the best statistical pitcher and hitter during the steroids era were both on the juice.

My thoughts exactly, Carbon.

PS. I agree with Curt Schilling.

Clemens either needs to put up the evidence that he DID'NT use HGH or give his Cy Youngs back. So far his "evidence" has been pretty flimsy--in fact, it's nonexistant.

You bring up a good point Leper, one that my dad and I spoke of while sorting this whole media clusterf*ck out. What does Macnamee have to gain from coming out and admitting he dealt illegal drugs? Obviously he WON'T be personal training any more pro athletes, and he's probably facing jail time with his testimony.

Now there ARE a few things we have to consider, just for fairness sake:

Why would Macnamee hold onto these syringes he has for 5 YEARS, while this whole "steroids in baseball" thing is going on, and then just come out now? It hurts the credibility, but you could speculate that he was pondering whether or not to ruin his career in order to "do the right thing" and turn Clemens in, or keep on doing "his thing". But still, the delayed time it took for him to bring forth the allegations and evidence is suspicious.

However, guys like Macnamee, supposed "idiots" to athletes, are appearing to be genius's these days. Jose Conseco seems totally credible now, but just a few years ago, when he came out with his book called "Juiced" and named multiple names of people he knew took steroids, he was a laughing stock. I am compelled to believe John Rocker, even though he's a proven idiot. All these guys who are coming out with names keep on being right, getting no denial, or at least turning up suspicious evidence.

The evidence against all the other players is so obvious:

1. Barry Bonds - physical appearance, head growth, record-setting production on the decline of his career, proven to have taken steroids but "didn't know what it was" (aka bullshit), reference to BALCO. I think Bonds will never be PROVEN to have taken steroids, but we all know better.

2. Mark McGwire - physical appearance, admitting to taking andro, and pretty much "plead the fifth" at his congressional hearing. He was silent, didn't deny anything, and pretty much took his medicine. He looked as if he were a guilty man, getting what he deserved. I can respect McGwire for not bitching about not getting into the hall of fame, or not getting the respect... he has admirably road off into the sunset, away from baseball with all his millions. I think McGwire knew to just shut up and get out.

3. Raphael Palmeiro - Finger pointing at congress (just as Bill Clinton did), lectruing them "I have NEVER taken steroids..EVER".. and then tested positive for steroids a few months later. What a joke.

4. Jason Giambi- Physical appearance (he was a beast with the A's), loss of weight, and a positive test for steroids. I notice Giambi wears at least 3 shirts under that yankee uniform to keep SOME sort of resemblence of his former, roided self.

5. Sammy Sosa- Physical appearance, the guy gained probably 50 pounds in a few years. And then looking like a guilty man and using a TRANSLATER in congress when we ALL KNOW he can speak english. Who are you kidding Sammy, you're lucky nobody has dug up your dirt.

6. Ivan "Pudge" Rodriguez - Physical appearance, went from a pudgy, muscle bound power hitter into a thin, lean, contact hitter. Gee, THAT'S not obvious.

Honorable Mention: Brady Anderson- hits 12-15 home runs in every season but one, when he hit 50. Yea, no steroid cycle there. LOL

I bet Clemens would beak macnamee over his knee like a twig. Don't fuck with roid boys.

One of the side affects of steroid use is anger. Remember when he threw the broken bat at Mike Piazza.

Clemens is fooling no one.

Even as a die hard Yankee fan, I have to say that I believe he took 'roids. Just put an asterisk beside his name explaining he used PED's, and leave it up to his fellow athletes to vote him in or not.

The use of steroids or other drug use by professional athletes is not an issue for congress. It is a complete waste of taxpayer's money for our elected officials to spend even one minute on the subject.

The use of steroids or other drug use by professional athletes is not an issue for congress. It is a complete waste of taxpayer's money for our elected officials to spend even one minute on the subject.

100% agree.

Why is this here instead of "Not News"?

Because it IS news... it's all over the place.. at least it has been. I think it'll settle down now that the testimony of clemens and macnamee hapened, but if they get pettite in, it'll flair right back up

Some of the facts against Steriod Bonds is coming out. He failed a steroid test the same year he broke the home run record. :mad:




http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23173928/

I voted for "Bananas taste good"... because I don't give a fuck about this at all. :)

I voted for "Bananas taste good"... because I don't give a fuck about this at all. :)
ditto

I appreciate the honesty of DarkFantasy..and it IS a true statement that many can agree with.

As for steroids... I think Bonds might be F'd up the A if things keep on leaking out.

I wonder why someone would feel the compulsion to tell others they dont give a fuck about a topic.

I wonder why someone would feel the compulsion to tell others they dont give a fuck about a topic.
Well I wouldn't have voted in the poll OR responded to the thread... But since Decka put in "Bananas taste good" as a poll option I was so amused that I felt compelled to vote and explain my response. What are you suggesting here? :)

Well I wouldn't have voted in the poll OR responded to the thread... But since Decka put in "Bananas taste good" as a poll option I was so amused that I felt compelled to vote and explain my response. What are you suggesting here? :)Well it is a public poll. If anyone wanted to know how you voted, they only needed to look at the results. :)

Well it is a public poll. If anyone wanted to know how you voted, they only needed to look at the results. :)
I'm aware of that. Where did I say that I responded because I wanted people to know how I voted?

I'm aware of that. Where did I say that I responded because I wanted people to know how I voted?
You're right. You told everyone how you voted and why because you DID'NT want anyone to know. My bad. :rolleyes:

You're right. You told everyone how you voted and why because you DID'NT want anyone to know. My bad. :rolleyes:
I knew they could find out what I chose, so I told them why, as you apparently already know. I don't see what your problem is with my post.

It's really not a problem. I just said i didnt understand your compulsion to voice your lack of caring about a topic.

Still dont, but thems the breaks. :)

I don't understand why you use the word compulsion. Do I have a "compulsion" every time I make a post?

I'm more curious about why with a war going on, the economy gone to to hell, medicaid and social security staring collapse in the face, these congressmen are wasting all this time and taxpayer money on something that has little if anything to do with them?

This is whats wrong with this dam government. Fix something important for christs sake will ya.

I'm more curious about why with a war going on, the economy gone to to hell, medicaid and social security staring collapse in the face, these congressmen are wasting all this time and taxpayer money on something that has little if anything to do with them?

This is whats wrong with this dam government. Fix something important for christs sake will ya.


Well, cheating and dishonesty have lead to the problems with the war, economy, and certainly contributes to problems in SS/medicaid.

Athletes are teaching kids that cheating and dishonesty gets you to the hall of fame. I think it addresses a fundamental problem in our country - normalization of unethical behavior.

Well, cheating and dishonesty have lead to the problems with the war, economy, and certainly contributes to problems in SS/medicaid.

Athletes are teaching kids that cheating and dishonesty gets you to the hall of fame. I think it addresses a fundamental problem in our country - normalization of unethical behavior.
Great point. Seems kinda strange coming from a lawyer though. :p

Baseball is also big business. Faulty business practices (IE, cheating and unethical behavior) should be looked into, as it should be when it's a major corporation misbehaving. In effect, they are misrepresenting their product with padded and misleading, faulty and fake stats.

Cheating has become endemic in sports. Basball players cheat, track competitors cheat, race car drivers cheat, football coaches cheat, hell, even professional bass fishermen have been found cheating.

If people are really upset about cheating, they'll vote with their wallets and the sports will be forced to do something about it. If people don't care, then I guess the sports will do nothing. Either way, I don't see why the government cares.

They sure cared about Joe Jackson.

If people are really upset about cheating, they'll vote with their wallets and the sports will be forced to do something about it.

I don't think it's realistic to expect people to stop participating in sports because of cheating pro athletes. In other words, I assert that markets have far less influence over players cheating than you seem to believe.

I will teach my son to play baseball because its a good sport - however, it would deeply concern me that pro athletes are setting a bad example for my son. I'm pretty that is a common sentiment.

If people don't care, then I guess the sports will do nothing. Either way, I don't see why the government cares.

Government reflects society's values and is present to nurture the success of a society. It's possible fair play/honesty are not valued by as much of society as I would like to think. Even so, you can't seriously argue that the prevalence of fair play and honesty have no influence on a society's success.

Since honesty and fair play are important to a society's success, it's important for government to take a role in matters influencing honesty and fair play in society.

Since honesty and fair play are important to a society's success, it's important for government to take a role in matters influencing honesty and fair play in society.

How odd, then, that our current administration abhors honesty and fair play.

The FBI has opened an investigation into whether baseball great Roger Clemens lied to Congress when he denied taking steroids or other performance-enhancing drugs. (AP Photo / February 28, 2008)
Jim Baumbach
3:27 PM EST, February 28, 2008
Congress' announcement that it has officially referred the Roger Clemens case to the U.S. Department of Justice is as much a public relations move as it is procedural, because the DOJ ultimately was going to decide on its own whether to investigate Clemens. (And it did so officially today.)

Still, it would have been so much easier for the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform to refer both men, because of their profoundly contrasting stories. But by referring only Clemens, they eliminated the partisan divide that dominated the Feb. 13 congressional hearing.

This letter to the DOJ essentially screamed to the world that the Democrats - and, yes, those Republicans, too - believed McNamee's story more than they believed Clemens.


The one thing to keep in mind is that this memo was put together by the staff of the Democratic chairman, and was released only by Waxman - not the ranking minority member Rep. Tom Davis (R-Va.), too. That detail gives the appearance that while the Republicans ultimately agreed to refer Clemens, they weren't about to roast him in the process.

Still, the memo is still of great interest. Here are the memo's seven points made by Clemens under oath "that appear to be contradicted by other evidence before the committee or implausible."

1. Clemens said he's never taken steroids or HGH

Waxman's staff breaks down the contradictions to this into three sub-categories: McNamee's testimony, Andy and Laura Pettitte's testimonies, and affidavits and the medical evidence.

McNamee, of course, testified that he injected Clemens with performance-enhancing drugs in 1998, 2000 and 2001, which Clemens vehemently denied. However, Chuck Knoblauch and Andy Pettitte said McNamee told the truth about their use of performance-enhancing drugs. Therefore, the memo states, "There is little reason to believe that Mr. McNamee would provide truthful testimony about Mr. Pettitte and Mr. Knoblauch, but false testimony about Mr. Clemens."

The memo also points out the contradiction that was perhaps most damning of all to Clemens; that his close friend, Pettitte, testified under oath about how Clemens told him in 1999 or 2000 that he used HGH, and then in 2005 told Pettitte that is not accurate. Pettitte also said that he had two conversations with McNamee in which they discussed Clemens's use of performance-enhancing drugs.

Under the "medical evidence," the memo focuses on an abscess Clemens developed on his buttocks in 1998, which McNamee believes was a result of a steroid shot he rushed. An MRI taken July 30, 1998 stated the injury was "likely related to the patient's prior attempted intramuscular injections." Dr. Mark Murphey, chief of musculoskeletal radiology at the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, said the injury on the MRI was "more compatible with the Winstrol injection" as opposed to a B-12 shot, as Clemens claimed.

2. Clemens said McNamee injected him with lidocaine

Clemens said in his deposition that McNamee "gave me lidocaine once" in my "lower back." However, McNamee said, "I never injected Roger Clemens or anyone else with lidocaine." And medical experts told the Committee that there are serious risks involved with lidocaine injections in the back. The memo points out that Blue Jays trainer Tommy Craig and assistant trainer Scott Shannon testified that, essentially, a lidocaine shot by a trainer is unheard of.

3. Clemens testified team trainers gave him pain injections

Clemens testified that trainers from all four of the teams gave him pain injections. However, the memo reports that trainers from the Toronto Blue Jays, Houston Astros and Boston Red Sox denied that in separate depositions. Only Yankees trainer Gene Monahan admitted to giving Clemens one injection "a light dose of Toradol," which is a pain medication.

4. Clemens testified that he received many B-12 injections

The memo took Clemens to task for saying he received many B-12 injections from several different people employed by teams. Clemens said B-12 shots were so common, the memo writes, "you get it in your shirt or you pull your jeans down, and they give you a B-12 shot, and you are out the door." The memo later said, "When asked if he had received these injections from team doctors, nurses or team trainers, he replied 'All of the above.' " However, the memo reports that they received Clemens's medical records dating from 1995 and there is only one record of a B-12 injection, on the July 28, 1998 medical report regarding Clemens's abscess.

5. Clemens testified he never discussed HGH with McNamee

The memo called Clemens out for what they purport to be blatant lies. "In his deposition, Mr. Clemens was asked repeatedly whether he had spoken with Mr. McNamee about human growth hormone. He denied ... These answers were not truthful." That's because Clemens later claims he learned McNamee injected Clemens's wife, Debbie, with HGH after the fact, and "had two specific conversations with Mr. McNamee about HGH." The memo reports that "Clemens could not explain the contradiction at the hearing."

6. Clemens testified he was not at Jose Canseco's house from June 8 to June 10, 1998

Clemens was most adamant about this in his deposition. He said he didn't attend Canseco's party; McNamee testified Clemens was there. The memo said, "When asked 'could you have been at his house during this time period, June 8th to 10, 1998? Mr. Clemens responded, 'No.' " As for the party, the memo says, "He said he was not at the team party eight times during his deposition. His attorneys stated: "We're able to establish, and we will be able to establish categorically, without question, that our client wasn't there." However, the memo points out that the testimony by the Clemens' nanny places him at the Clemens house. And, "According to press accounts, Mr. Clemens's lawyer, Rusty Hardin, was informed the day before the Committee hearing that there may be photographs placing Mr. Clemens at the party at Mr. Canseco's house." At the Committee's hearing, Mr. Clemens testified that he was "not totally positive" that he did not go to the Canseco home after playing golf to drop off his wife before going to the ballpark." The implication, of course, being that Clemens curiously changed his story.

7. Clemens said he was "never told" about Senator Mitchell's request

The memo references Clemens's interview with Mike Wallace on "60 Minutes" in which he explained that he did not speak with Senator Mitchell because he "listened to counsel." But, according to the memo, "In his deposition before the Committee, Mr. Clemens gave a different and contradictory explanation, stating at least six times under oath that he had no idea that Senator Mitchell was seeking to interview him."

The memo concludes, "The evidence before the Committee does not establish conclusively that Mr. Clemens received notice of Senator Mitchell's inquiry. It seems unlikely, however, that on a matter as significant as Senator Mitchell's inquiry, Mr. Clemens's agents would have declined Senator Mitchell's request to meet with Mr. Clemens without conferring with Mr.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/ny-spjim0229,0,2858313.column

How odd, then, that our current administration abhors honesty and fair play.

No one is talking about the current administration.

Some people will try to bring politics into every discussion.

Post a recipe for apple pie and someone will say, "George Bush isn't doing enough to combat global warming so soon there will be no apples."

Why is the FBI getting into this? More tax dollars being wasted on professional sports. Who really gives a flying F* what a bunch of millionaire ball players are doing to themselves? Let the sports leagues take care of their own & keep the gov't resources out of it.

I don't think it's realistic to expect people to stop participating in sports because of cheating pro athletes. In other words, I assert that markets have far less influence over players cheating than you seem to believe.

If that's the case, then perhaps people don't really care. I suspect people just want to know what's going on. But to be clear, I'm not speaking of participating in sports, I'm talking about watching professional sports.

I will teach my son to play baseball because its a good sport - however, it would deeply concern me that pro athletes are setting a bad example for my son. I'm pretty that is a common sentiment.

Pro athletes are setting a bad example for your son already - chewing tobacco, groin grabbing, screaming at umps, throwing tantrums, not being good teammates, etc.

Government reflects society's values and is present to nurture the success of a society. It's possible fair play/honesty are not valued by as much of society as I would like to think. Even so, you can't seriously argue that the prevalence of fair play and honesty have no influence on a society's success.

I wouldn't argue that. However, I think sports reflect a societies values rather than guide them.

Since honesty and fair play are important to a society's success, it's important for government to take a role in matters influencing honesty and fair play in society.

I think that's a rather tenuous connection with regard to the government. And more importantly, I don't really think the government is competent to take on that issue. Lord knows soon they'll be sticking their nose into why there aren't more black hockey players or white receivers.

How odd, then, that our current administration abhors honesty and fair play.
A fun discussion then, alas, the one-trick ponies bray.

Clemens should have simply admitted steroid and HGH use and been done with it. The public has already forgiven Pettite and Knoblauch. Clemens' hubris in thinking he could lie to Congress may cost him jail time.

Exhibit A is, as Frogger said, when he threw the bat at Piazza (the day I stopped watching baseball)

Exhibit B is his his big giant ape-jawed round head.


As an aside, how much more feminine could Andy Pettite look had he not taken the steroids?