In fact that's exactly what it is. You seem to have no problems with Democrats who did not serve in the military. Why the problem with Republicans who did not serve in the military?
Especially when this is all about ALLOWING people the OPPORTUNITY to serve. They can always say "no", but apparently, that's not good enough for the 'open minded' members that represent Berkeley's city council. In short, they're the fascists here, not our government.

To me the most interesting aspect is the 'big brother' bullying of the Government in the matter.

Financial blackmail-pure and simple.

PS: Hear anything about that campus shooting up your way?
Wow, that JUST happened, and you already know about it!?! This isn't grandpa's world anymore, is it? It's amazing how fast information travels. Having said that, I don't know any details yet.

Pretty freaking sad, isn't it? :( More senseless fodder for the anti-gun crowd, I suppose.

I have my spys everywhere :)

Yeah, another gutless fucken dick, why dont these people go do themselves and leave the rest of the kids alone :(

To me the most interesting aspect is the 'big brother' bullying of the Government in the matter.

Financial blackmail-pure and simple.
But, Paul, what you're failing to understand here is that "financial blackmail" (as you put it) ISN'T a new tactic. As regrettable as it is, our whole government operates on the 'you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours' platform. Hell, that's how people operate IN GENERAL. That aside, what happened here isn't even ABOUT THAT. The city of Berkeley requested that the federal government vacate public property (which was a completely meritless, and not to mention, unenforceable request) when our government wasn't doing anything wrong to begin with. Not too long ago, certain posters here rebuked a city in Florida for forcibly moving indigent people off of private property when they were occupying space illegally (by that, I mean they were loitering/trespassing), and now, many of those same people are applauding Berkeley for kicking out recruiters when they were operating in a completely legal fashion. It does raise an eyebrow in regards to what make these people tick.

Yeah, another gutless fucken dick, why dont these people go do themselves and leave the rest of the kids alone :(
No shit. Come to think of it, I know a girl there (not well, but whatever). Anyway, I hope she's okay.

17 wounded I last heard :(

Unbelievable.

The city of Berkeley requested that the federal government vacate public property (which was a completely meritless, and not to mention, unenforceable request) when our government wasn't doing anything wrong to begin with.

You really need to do a little more research, my friend. :)

The city of Berkeley didn't "request that the federal government vacate public property." The recruiter office is a rented space on Shattuck Avenue, the main drag through Berkeley. It isn't public property, and the city council didn't "request that they vacate." They CONSIDERED sending a letter to the tenant (recruiting office) stating that that tenant was unwelcome. No threats, no demands, no requests were made of the federal government. No public property was involved, and the letter was never sent.

To me the most interesting aspect is the 'big brother' bullying of the Government in the matter.

you mean when the local police stood by while Code Pink created a fire hazard by forcibly obstructing the exit?

Here, Frannie. How about blocking people from entering the recruiting station? Or is that OK in your mind because they have a 'good cause

Blocking people from signing their lives away to serve in Mr. Bush's Happy Little War in Iraq is wrong. If Code Pink blocked the entrance, they were wrong in doing so. I personally believe they were hoping to prevent more senseless pain/suffering/death in Mr. Bush's Happy Little War in Iraq, but stopping fools from ruining their lives is hardly their responsibility and absolutely NOT their prerogative.

On the other hand, it's hard to feel sympathy for anyone that signs up for PTSD/missing limbs/brain damage/death/service at this point in the game; their ultimately certain miseries will have easily been prevented by giving Iraqis their country back and bringing our military members home, instead of encouraging even more of them to waste their energies/lives following Mr. Bush into the abyss.

Blocking people from signing their lives away to serve in Mr. Bush's Happy Little War in Iraq is wrong. If Code Pink blocked the entrance, they were wrong in doing so. I personally believe they were hoping to prevent more senseless pain/suffering/death in Mr. Bush's Happy Little War in Iraq, but stopping fools from ruining their lives is hardly their responsibility and absolutely NOT their prerogative.

On the other hand, it's hard to feel sympathy for anyone that signs up for PTSD/missing limbs/brain damage/death/service at this point in the game; their ultimately certain miseries will have easily been prevented by giving Iraqis their country back and bringing our military members home, instead of encouraging even more of them to waste their energies/lives following Mr. Bush into the abyss.


Those same fools signing their lives away is THE only thing that stands
between yer prosaically malnurished neutron lifespan of insight and
what real world catastrophe wood await ALL Americans if the
camel breath morons of doom have their way and We,as those of
the Brave and Free,cave-in and become like what Middle East history
suggests and Don't Conquer what Ails and torments Us.

Blocking people from signing their lives away to serve in Mr. Bush's Happy Little War in Iraq is wrong. If Code Pink blocked the entrance, they were wrong in doing so. I personally believe they were hoping to prevent more senseless pain/suffering/death in Mr. Bush's Happy Little War in Iraq, but stopping fools from ruining their lives is hardly their responsibility and absolutely NOT their prerogative.

On the other hand, it's hard to feel sympathy for anyone that signs up for PTSD/missing limbs/brain damage/death/service at this point in the game; their ultimately certain miseries will have easily been prevented by giving Iraqis their country back and bringing our military members home, instead of encouraging even more of them to waste their energies/lives following Mr. Bush into the abyss.
Okay, then why the fuck do you and your friends in Berkley care if there's a recruiting office there? Since you obviously don't care much about those "fools", why not just let them go and "ruin their lives?" Or do you think that protesting a recruiting office in some random fucking town is somehow going to stop the war?

My query being, has the Government the right to withhold funding for a food project, because it doesnt like the attitude of the council in an unrelated matter?

I would have thought the Government were the ones being unAmerican here, not me.

Excellent point, Paul.

But certain dimwitted -"Rah rah USA!!!"- twits (IOW, the apologists for everything the far Right Government perpetrates against the citizenry in this country) will be forever blind to such realities.

_____________________

"In the long and harrowing national nightmare we presently find ourselves trapped in, a filthy brand of governance has emerged, entrenching itself deep into our society with its claws of violence and destruction. It is a government devoid of honor or integrity; living, breathing and spewing lies and deceits, exploiting fear and insecurity to achieve its goals and manipulating an entire nation suffering through its post 9/11 insecurity and slumber into blindly following its evil dictates."___________Manuel Valenzuela

you mean when the local police stood by while Code Pink created a fire hazard by forcibly obstructing the exit?
Wow-something that serious :rolleyes:

Paul, stop being an ass.

The police are supposed to protect and serve all citizens, not just lefty citizens. That goes even in Berkely.

When a group of protestors blocks ingress and egress to and from a building they are not only breaking the law, they are also creating a hazard. It was the responsibility of the police on the scene to move the Code Pink protestors from in front of the door. They refused to do this.

Yes, it is important. It is important because it was an example of selective enforcement of the law. The citizens of Berkely were not being afforded equal protection under the law, something supposedly enshrined in the American system.

It really is that important.

Okay, then why the fuck do you and your friends in Berkley care if there's a recruiting office there?

Well, isn't that nice? A charming example of America's best and brightest heard from! :thumbs:

Young man, I don't care if there's a recruiting office in Berkeley. But you sure seem to. Why is that? Why is what Berkeley does any of your business?

Since you obviously don't care much about those "fools", why not just let them go and "ruin their lives?"

I'm more than happy to let others run their own lives (and their own towns) any way they wish - it's Code Pink that's trying to stop the military madness and people like you trying to stop their efforts. Cursing at me won't change what happens in Berkeley; why don't you hop on a bus and go scream in their faces? Maybe that will change their minds. :)

Or do you think that protesting a recruiting office in some random fucking town is somehow going to stop the war?

More bon mots from America's youth! How very refreshing!

I support their goals; I don't think they're going about it very well, but I'm not about to fly down there to get involved in their fight.

As for ending the war in Iraq, I believe removing Mr. Bush and his pro-war friends from the equation will do a lot to bring an end to our occupation of Iraq. Once BushCo is out of the picture we can go back to hunting down the actual people who did us harm on 9/11.

Obviously, my panties are not as bunched up over this as yours are, but I am curious to hear your thoughts on how to end our deadly occupation of someone else's country (oh look, another example of aggressive pro-war types imposing their will on far-away strangers; how utterly surprising). Or maybe you're someone who's willing to spend the next 100 years (and how many more deaths) in Iraq...? Tell us your solutions for the problems Mr. Bush has created with his Happy Little War in Iraq, won't you?


One more time, in case anyone missed it: What the people of Berkeley do in THEIR TOWN is THEIR BUSINESS. If you (the collective you, i.e., all the pro-war, pro-Bush, pro-opressing-the-masses types who jumped on planes and buses to Berkeley solely to scream in the faces of people you don't know and whose actions don't impact you in the slightest, and INSIST that the locals do things YOUR way) don't like how they run things in Berkeley, don't go there. Problem solved.

:rolleyes:

Or do you think that protesting a recruiting office in some random fucking town is somehow going to stop the war?

Nobody expects it to stop the war but it might stop some of their children from their community from signing up and getting killed or maimed.

Nice, smarmy post, Frannie.

As a member of the military Code Pink and the city fathers of Berkely hate so much Jester has every right to be angry and even curse a bit if he wishes. He wasn't cursing at you but at the situation and you know it. It just better suits your purpose to pretend he was cursing at you.

As for his concern about a recruiting office in Berkely, he and every other American has a right to be concerned about a recruiting office anywhere in his country.

Nobody expects it to stop the war but it might stop some of their children from their community from signing up and getting killed or maimed.


It is not up to you, Frannie or Code Pink to decide who may and may not enlist in the military.

Paul, stop being an ass.

The police are supposed to protect and serve all citizens, not just lefty citizens. That goes even in Berkely.

When a group of protestors blocks ingress and egress to and from a building they are not only breaking the law, they are also creating a hazard. It was the responsibility of the police on the scene to move the Code Pink protestors from in front of the door. They refused to do this.

Yes, it is important. It is important because it was an example of selective enforcement of the law. The citizens of Berkely were not being afforded equal protection under the law, something supposedly enshrined in the American system.

It really is that important.

Lest one,no matter their Libertality,harken back to Kent State
and the National Guard Fiasco or even the Peaceniks at the
Democratic Convention and how Ginsberg calmed them thru
a simple Buddhist chant or even convincing The Hells Ahgels and
their leader Sonny Barger to let the 1965 Vietnam Protest,held at
the Oakland-Berkeley city line,drawing several thousand marchers
NOT be Violently interrupted.

Paul, stop being an ass.

The police are supposed to protect and serve all citizens, not just lefty citizens. That goes even in Berkely.

When a group of protestors blocks ingress and egress to and from a building they are not only breaking the law, they are also creating a hazard. It was the responsibility of the police on the scene to move the Code Pink protestors from in front of the door. They refused to do this.

Yes, it is important. It is important because it was an example of selective enforcement of the law. The citizens of Berkely were not being afforded equal protection under the law, something supposedly enshrined in the American system.

It really is that important.
If it was an abortion clinic, you wouldn't have given a shit.

As for his concern about a recruiting office in Berkely, he and every other American has a right to be concerned about a recruiting office anywhere in his country.

Your reading comprehension seems to be a bit out of whack there, Frogger. Try reading it again. I never said he (or anyone else) didn't have a right to be concerned. I asked WHY he was so concerned.

I'll ask you the same thing: Why are you so upset over what the people of Berkeley do in their own town?

If it was an abortion clinic, you wouldn't have given a shit.

If you had been paying attention you would know that yes, I would give a shit. The fact that I am against abortions does not mean I am not also against keeping women from entering abortion clinics. As long as abortions are legal those seeking them deserve all the freedoms and protections our country offers.

Well, isn't that nice? A charming example of America's best and brightest heard from! :thumbs:You'll have to forgive me, since I'm just a fool who chose to ruin his life.

Young man, I don't care if there's a recruiting office in Berkeley. But you sure seem to. Why is that? Why is what Berkeley does any of your business?It doesn't really matter to me either if there's a recruiting office there. What pisses me off is your condescending attitude towards people who might want to go enlist in such a recruiting station.

As for ending the war in Iraq, I believe removing Mr. Bush and his pro-war friends from the equation will do a lot to bring an end to our occupation of Iraq. Once BushCo is out of the picture we can go back to hunting down the actual people who did us harm on 9/11.No doubt.

Obviously, my panties are not as bunched up over this as yours are, but I am curious to hear your thoughts on how to end our deadly occupation of someone else's country (oh look, another example of aggressive pro-war types imposing their will on far-away strangers; how utterly surprising). Or maybe you're someone who's willing to spend the next 100 years (and how many more deaths) in Iraq...? Tell us your solutions for the problems Mr. Bush has created with his Happy Little War in Iraq, won't you?I have my ideas on how to end the war/occupation, but that's for another thread. I will tell you, though, that most of it has to be done in Iraq and not in the US... and certainly not in front of Marine Corps recruiting stations.


One more time, in case anyone missed it: What the people of Berkeley do in THEIR TOWN is THEIR BUSINESS. If you (the collective you, i.e., all the pro-war, pro-Bush, pro-opressing-the-masses types who jumped on planes and buses to Berkeley solely to scream in the faces of people you don't know and whose actions don't impact you in the slightest, and INSIST that the locals do things YOUR way) don't like how they run things in Berkeley, don't go there. Problem solved.

:rolleyes:
Newsflash -- this is a debate and discussion forum, and being personally affected by the topic at hand is not a prerequisite for partaking in the said debate and discussion.

What pisses me off is your condescending attitude towards people who might want to go enlist in such a recruiting station.

I suppose it's entirely possible that doing Mr. Bush's deadly dirty work in the Middle East will be the best thing that ever happens in your life, but the statistics don't work in your favor. If you don't get a leg or arm (or both) blown off, if you aren't killed outright, odds are excellent that you will return with moderate to serious psychiatric or behavioral health issues.

Guess we'll just have to wait till your involvement in the Iraq occupation comes to and end, and you can let us know. I wish you the best.

Until then, I will continue to support those who work to bring an end to the brutality and misery fostered by this administration and its militaristic followers/adherents/minions.

I wish you the best.
Given the gist of your post, forgive me if I question your sincerity here.

I'm sorry, Fran, but I think your words were entirely uncalled for.

As for the Fire hazard business-I say bullshit-why.
Because Id be surprised if any protester would stand in the way of
firefighters doing their job,if the necessity arouse,so thats being a bit
picky,and lets face it,its not the end of the world.

As for the potential recruits, no one should try and stop them from enlisting
if that is their wish,stopping a few signing up isnt gonna change a damn thing.

As Fran stated, what needs to happen is a regime change and if possible an attempt to keep the right wing out of the White House for as long as possible.

Only then can attitudes of militarism be slowly chipped away at,until someday
America has a military system in line with other nations of its size,and once in every generation American children dont have to fight and die to keep the wheels of that military machine running smoothly.

You really need to do a little more research, my friend. :)
Maybe. I've been wrong (many times) before. :)
The city of Berkeley didn't "request that the federal government vacate public property." The recruiter office is a rented space on Shattuck Avenue, the main drag through Berkeley. It isn't public property...
Semantics. You understand the point I'm making. Come to think of it (and this does make sense), I find Berkeley's actions here even more egregious considering the fact they asked our government to vacate a spot they were actually PAYING for.
....and the city council didn't "request that they vacate." They CONSIDERED sending a letter to the tenant (recruiting office) stating that that tenant was unwelcome.
READ; we don't want you here - i.e. vacate. Is there really any other way to interpret it, Fran???

Perhaps this is where I missed researching the whole story, but here's where I get confused; if they didn't send the letter, then how did this story MAKE the news? I haven't seen that mentioned in any of the articles I've read thus far.
No threats, no demands, no requests were made of the federal government. No public property was involved, and the letter was never sent.
If the letter was never sent, then you're absolutely right. If, OTOH, it was sent, then the city council most certainly made "requests" (read; unenforceable demands) of our federal government. Either way, their actions were reprehensible by virtue of the fact that they wrote the letter in the first place.

Can you link me to where they claim the letter was never sent?

Given the gist of your post, forgive me if I question your sincerity here. I'm sorry, Fran, but I think your words were entirely uncalled for.

The war in Iraq was uncalled for, as is our current occupation of that country. I have never supported our presence there and never will. I have never supported sending more American soldiers to add to the death and destruction there and never will. And I certainly do not encourage our idealistic youngsters to sign their lives/limbs/minds away in pursuit of Mr. Bush's failed Iraq policy.

If that makes me a horrible person in the eyes of others, I'll live with it.

As for the Fire hazard business-I say bullshit-why.
Because Id be surprised if any protester would stand in the way of
firefighters doing their job,if the necessity arouse,so thats being a bit
picky,and lets face it,its not the end of the world.
Maybe, but it IS illegal, Paul. The cops should've known that. THEY WERE THERE.
As Fran stated, what needs to happen is a regime change and if possible an attempt to keep the right wing out of the White House for as long as possible.
Wow, how bipartisan of you both.
Only then can attitudes of militarism be slowly chipped away at,until someday
America has a military system in line with other nations of its size.
How "big" should it be, Paul? Smaller than China's or Russia's, right? I mean, after all, we're a smaller nation than they are. And how 'bout them Aussies, eh? They need to get on the ball, and FAST.

If that makes me a horrible person in the eyes of others, I'll live with it.
Of course, that doesn't make you a bad person. You're entitled to your opinion. But then again, so are others.

READ; we don't want you here - i.e. vacate. Is there really any other way to interpret it, Fran???

Absolutely. Legally, the city has no authority to force them to vacate, and no demand to vacate was issued.

Perhaps this is where I missed researching the whole story, but here's where I get confused; if they didn't send the letter, then how did this story MAKE the news? I haven't seen that mentioned in any of the articles I've read thus far.

Berkeley has a very active citizenry. Weekly City Council meetings are jammed to the rafters with people bringing issues forward for discussion and these meetings often last into the wee morning hours. Those who attend share the information with friends, and City Council agendas and minutes are posted online. The information was quite accessible to anyone willing to look for it.

Can you link me to where they claim the letter was never sent?

Sure thing. Newspaper reports (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,330527,00.html)(from Fox News, so you KNOW you can trust it!). City Council Agenda (http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/ContentDisplay.aspx?id=12798)(scroll down to item 25). :)

Maybe, but it IS illegal, Paul. The cops should've known that. THEY WERE THERE. Sure they were there, but lets face it, it wasnt a big deal, illegal or not.

Wow, how bipartisan of you both.
Yeah I know. I have no doubt the majority of people in the Republican Party are genuine patriotic members,who only have their countries best interests at heart, unfortunatly,there is an extreme right wing element which has hijacked the party at a national level who thru the guise of patriotism and security are working to their own agenda. Their have,simply putting it failed in their duty to the country.

How "big" should it be, Paul? Smaller than China's or Russia's, right? I mean, after all, we're a smaller nation than they are. And how 'bout them Aussies, eh? They need to get on the ball, and FAST.I may have worded this better I admit.
The US Armed Forces no longer need the man power it currently has.
Thru vast advances in weapons technology, the GI on the ground is required less and less, any overseas ops in the future can be carrier based,doing away with the need for ground troops in hostile nations.

Absolutely. Legally, the city has no authority to force them to vacate, and no demand to vacate was issued.

Sure thing. Newspaper reports (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,330527,00.html)(from Fox News, so you KNOW you can trust it!). City Council Agenda (http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/ContentDisplay.aspx?id=12798)(scroll down to item 25). :)
Well, I stand corrected. Of course, that doesn't excuse their actions (by that, I mean their preferential treatment of code pink vis a vis the recruiters), but it does, however, go a long way to dismissing the biggest part of my initial complaint. Thank you, Fran.

Sure they were there, but lets face it, it wasnt a big deal, illegal or not.
They're job is to follow the rules, Paul. On more than just this occasion, they didn't. That's disgusting, period. No matter how "important" you deem certain laws to be, that's not your call to make. They're LAWS. It's NOT a cop's job to think; it's a cop's job to enforce the laws (impartially and without malice). There's simply no defense of their actions here, end of story.
I may have worded this better I admit.
The US Armed Forces no longer need the man power it currently has.
I disagree, but nevertheless, I understand your point.
Thru vast advances in weapons technology, the GI on the ground is required less and less...
True
...any overseas ops in the future can be carrier based,doing away with the need for ground troops in hostile nations.
And I think that's EXACTLY where they need to be.

They're job is to follow the rules, Paul. On more than just this occasion, they didn't. That's disgusting, period. No matter how "important" you deem certain laws to be, that's not your call to make. They're LAWS. It's NOT a cop's job to think; it's a cop's job to enforce the laws (impartially and without malice). There's simply no defense of their actions here, end of story.
Your grasping at straws on this one man, there is so mant crimes on the street that the non violent, misdemeanours are largely given a bye ball.

If ya think how many thousands of cars are parked infront of fire hydrants everyday, how many get booked, very few,why,its not the end of the world.

If its the legality aspect that bothers you, how legal would you say it is for a couple of Senators with a bee in their ass to try and force thru witholding of funds to a city, same thing I guess.

If you had been paying attention you would know that yes, I would give a shit. The fact that I am against abortions does not mean I am not also against keeping women from entering abortion clinics. As long as abortions are legal those seeking them deserve all the freedoms and protections our country offers.
You can say it like that, but I think everyone knows how quickly you'd change your tune.

Your grasping at straws on this one man...
NOT AT ALL, I'm not. You're the one grasping at straws here, not me. The laws are there for a REASON, end of story. They were legitimately VOTED on in the first place, and they shouldn't be selectively enforced by the very people my tax dollars fund to ensure they are. IT'S THEIR JOB, Paul. What about that do you not get? Your entire argument here is without merit. You can't just "obey" the laws that YOU think make sense. That's not your call to make.
there is so mant crimes on the street that the non violent, misdemeanours are largely given a bye ball.
Suuuure - why not let 'em all slide; I mean, in reality, we can't catch every offender, soooooo........fuck it, right? On that note, fuck our oath, too...we'll just wear our uniforms and look the part. :rolleyes:
If ya think how many thousands of cars are parked infront of fire hydrants everyday, how many get booked, very few,why,its not the end of the world.
Maybe in Ireland. Pull that shit in Chicago, and you'll pay 250 bucks to get your car outta hock. Usually, the city LIKES taking your money. So do the tow truck companies.
If its the legality aspect that bothers you, how legal would you say it is for a couple of Senators with a bee in their ass to try and force thru witholding of funds to a city, same thing I guess.
How many times do I have to tell you this - if they vote on a bill, and it passes, then it's perfectly legal for our elected representatives to rescind the very funding they VOTED to provide Berkeley with in the first place. I guess that one's "illegal" in your opinion because you DON'T like it, eh? Unfortunately for you, that's not how reality OR a democracy works.

You can say it like that, but I think everyone knows how quickly you'd change your tune.
I don't think that's entirely fair, Naps. He wouldn't argue outside the law. Staunch conservatives never do.

NOT AT ALL, I'm not. You're the one grasping at straws here, not me. The laws are there for a REASON, end of story. They were legitimately VOTED on in the first place, and they shouldn't be selectively enforced by the very people my tax dollars fund to ensure they are. IT'S THEIR JOB, Paul. What about that do you not get? Your entire argument here is without merit. You can't just "obey" the laws that YOU think make sense. That's not your call to make.
Oh c'mon, thats like saying every offence is persued no matter what.
Im not saying its not illegal,Im saying its prioritised,no doubt the cops are thinking, two sides screaming at each other could turn ugly, fuck the hydrant code.

Suuuure - why not let 'em all slide; I mean, in reality, we can't catch every offender, soooooo........fuck it, right? On that note, fuck our oath, too...we'll just wear our uniforms and look the part. :rolleyes:
Thats not what I said or suggested.

Maybe in Ireland. Pull that shit in Chicago, and you'll pay 250 bucks to get your car outta hock. Usually, the city LIKES taking your money. So do the tow truck companies.[?QUOTE]
No-this shit happens here also.

[QUOTE=Praetorian]How many times do I have to tell you this - if they vote on a bill, and it passes, then it's perfectly legal for our elected representatives to rescind the very funding they VOTED to provide Berkeley with in the first place. I guess that one's "illegal" in your opinion 'cause you DON'T like it, eh? Unfortunately for you, that's not how reality OR a democracy works.On what grounds could they withold it.
That relates to school lunches-none.

If its witheld for any other reason then federal funds are being witheld from American citizens for purely political reasons,the Supreme Court would have a field day with that one.

I don't think that's entirely fair, Naps. He wouldn't argue outside the law. Staunch conservatives never do.
He sure wouldn't make as big a deal of it as he is now.

Let me get this right.
If Imwrong someone jump in.
US Law is based on the interpreyayion of the US Constitution.
The US Constitution was written to protect Americans individual right from the US Government.

If this guy DeMint can justify witholding funding, then either Im wrong or the US Constitution isnt worth the paper its written on.

The city of Berkeley didn't "request that the federal government vacate public property." The recruiter office is a rented space on Shattuck Avenue, the main drag through Berkeley. It isn't public property...

Aren't you leaving something out, Fran. The city council didn't simply say we really don't like having you here. They actively worked against the recruiting office being there. They gave Code Pink a free parking space so they could harrass the recruiters and anyone trying to enter the office. They instructed the police not interfere with protestors who blocked the door and physically kept people from entering. They explored ways to have the landlord break the lease.


Oh c'mon, thats like saying every offence is persued no matter what.
Im not saying its not illegal,Im saying its prioritised,no doubt the cops are thinking, two sides screaming at each other could turn ugly, fuck the hydrant code.

Paul,

The city council obviously thought it was important enough to send police officers to the site. Since they were already deployed at the site rather than being used to chase down hardened criminals why didn't they simply enforce the laws that were being broken. That is what they are paid to do, not to stand around watching while a bunch of Code Pinkies broke the law.

Paul,

The city council obviously thought it was important enough to send police officers to the site. Since they were already deployed at the site rather than being used to chase down hardened criminals why didn't they simply enforce the laws that were being broken. That is what they are paid to do, not to stand around watching while a bunch of Code Pinkies broke the law.
Is the city council able to decide were officers are deployed,I would have thought operational decisions would be made by the Chief of Police or the Senior officer on the ground.

These Berkeley people have really got up the nose of the military gang hevnt they.

The city council of any major city has a lot to say about where and how police are deployed.

Berkely has gotten not only up the nose of the military but also up the noses of a lot of people who admire, rather than despise our young men and women in the armed services.

If its witheld for any other reason then federal funds are being witheld from American citizens for purely political reasons,the Supreme Court would have a field day with that one.
It doesn't matter - the Supreme Court has no say-so in the matter, whatsoever. Let Berkeley try and sue our elected officials for exercising the legal privileges afforded to them in the Constitution of the United States.

Good luck.

More on the rest later. Gotta jet. Have a nice weekend, Paul. :)

It doesn't matter - the Supreme Court has no say-so in the matter, whatsoever. Let Berkeley try and sue our elected officials for exercising the legal privileges afforded to them in the Constitution of the United States.

Good luck.

More on the rest later. Gotta jet. Have a nice weekend, Paul. :)
Yeah you to-stay cool.

The city council of any major city has a lot to say about where and how police are deployed.

Berkeley has gotten not only up the nose of the military but also up the noses of a lot of people who admire, rather than despise our young men and women in the armed services.

Do you really think it comes down to the Berkeley people despising the recruits, I think not.

This is more about making a statement against the Bush Administrations war mongering around the globe.

Tho,Im sure the right wing will make it sound personal for their own political ends.

Paul,

There is something you don't seem to understand. The funds are not something Berkely gets by any right. They are a GIFT from the federal government. Governments, federal, state and local often give gifts to certain municipalities or organizations. Since they are gifts they can be witheld any time the giver desires to do so.

If I offer you a gift and you spit in my face you can rest assured the gift will NOT be in the mail.

Do you really think it comes down to the Berkeley people despising the recruits, I think not.

This is more about making a statement against the Bush Administrations war mongering around the globe.

Tho,Im sure the right wing will make it sound personal for their own political ends.

You and others can spout the, we love the soldiers we just hate the war, crap all you want. It wasn't the war that was trying to enter the recruiting office but individuals who wanted to investigate possibly becoming soldiers, the same soldiers the lefties always say they love.

Paul,

There is something you don't seem to understand. The funds are not something Berkely gets by any right. They are a GIFT from the federal government. Governments, federal, state and local often give gifts to certain municipalities or organizations. Since they are gifts they can be withheld any time the giver desires to do so.

If I offer you a gift and you spit in my face you can rest assured the gift will NOT be in the mail.
Frogger,Im not suggesting that Berkeley has a right to these funds.
What Im saying is, that federal funding which was approved for school luncheon, was threatened with withdrawal because of a totally unrelated
issue, the ramifications of this could be enormous.

What it suggests is that the Government allocates funding on a purely political basis.

The ramifications are not enormous and never will be. The lesson learned was, if you want to interfere with the government doing something it has a perfectly legal right to do you should not expect government largesse.

You and others can spout the, we love the soldiers we just hate the war, crap all you want. It wasn't the war that was trying to enter the recruiting office but individuals who wanted to investigate possibly becoming soldiers, the same soldiers the lefties always say they love.
Where individuals physically barred entry from the recruiting office, with the purpose of enlisting,and if so,where these potential recruits from the Berkeley area?

Are you suggesting that Americans sit back indefinitly and allow Bush and the right wing to wage war in their name without putting up some protest against it.

If I were an American I can assure you that I would not allow my son to enlist, to serve a right wing agenda, which after all has zero to do with the security of the United States.

The ramifications are not enormous and never will be. The lesson learned was, if you want to interfere with the government doing something it has a perfectly legal right to do you should not expect government largesse.

Even tho the funding had nothing to do with the issue at hand.
Well Frogger, if thats the way the America is being run, Im glad Im
in Europe, because funding based soley on political viewpoints and
revenge would not be tolerated here.

Where individuals physically barred entry from the recruiting office, with the purpose of enlisting,and if so,where these potential recruits from the Berkeley area?

I think you mean were rather than where and yes, they were physically keeping people from entering the office. It does not matter where the young men and women came from. Recruitment is not a local thing. You can go into any recruiting office and enlist.

Are you suggesting that Americans sit back indefinitly and allow Bush and the right wing to wage war in their name without putting up some protest against it.

I am suggesting nothing of the kind. Protest all you want but do not allow your protest to escalate to the point of intimidation. Also remember, actions have consequences.

If I were an American I can assure you that I would not allow my son to enlist, to serve a right wing agenda, which after all has zero to do with the security of the United States.

What right do you have to tell your son he may or may not enlist if he is of age? Do you also tell him what to eat and what time to go to bed.

You are glad you live in Europe and not the U.S.. Guess what. So am I. We already have enough left wing, whackos.

I think you mean were rather than where and yes, they were physically keeping people from entering the office. It does not matter where the young men and women came from. Recruitment is not a local thing. You can go into any recruiting office and enlist.
By the time I left school at 14 I still hadnt figured out my
'wear-were-where' thing properly, so thanks for the correction.

I must admit,I can not find any news link which states that people wishing to enlist where physically barred from doing so.

On the location note, I would say it is very important, because the right wing would think nothing of bringing in some people whom wish to enlist from outside the area, simply to make a point to attack Berkeley with.



I am suggesting nothing of the kind. Protest all you want but do not allow your protest to escalate to the point of intimidation. Also remember, actions have consequences.
Its a pity you didnt email this to DeMint and his boys, intimidation in this matter seem to be their speciality



What right do you have to tell your son he may or may not enlist if he is of age? Do you also tell him what to eat and what time to go to bed.
No I dont, but I'll tell you something, Id fucken die before Id let them be shipped off to the ME to please the right wing in Washington.

You are glad you live in Europe and not the U.S.. Guess what. So am I. We already have enough left wing, whackos.

Whacko?

Seems there isnt enough left wing voices heard in America, the right has made such a botch job of things lately.

If you look at the video I posted you can see them physically keeping people from entering the office.


Yes, Whacko. I like you, Paul, but I think you are a political whacko.

If you look at the video I posted you can see them physically keeping people from entering the office.


Yes, Whacko. I like you, Paul, but I think you are a political whacko.

I'll check the video out now.

'political whacko' well thats a new one.

I been called a lot of things in my life, buts thats a first-thanks.

'I like you to old man.

http://www.gpdesenhos.com.br/imagens/outros/outros/animaniacs/wakko.jpg

Paul,

Read the bold portions of the article and some of your questions about the actions of the anti-recruitment demonstrators and the city council will be answered.


February 15, 2008
Berkeley at the First Amendment Brink
By Kyle-Anne Shiver
As a Southerner, I have watched the Berkeley vs. U.S. Marines brouhaha with a very keen interest. I'm not all that sure those people in Berkeley know what can happen to people who decide to mess around with the United States government.

Somebody really ought to clue those folks in with a little reality check.

So far, I haven't seen any official calls for their little bayshore city to be surrounded by an armed force of Navy, Marines, Army and National Guard and blockaded from the rest of the country. But they should take a lesson from the likes of us whose ancestors tried stunts like this in the past, and do a more hasty and substantial retreat before they have to find out for themselves just how hard it can be to face off with the Union.


Right now, they seem to be thinking that their little scuffle is with George W. Bush, the man, and not the President of the United States of America. They seem to be thinking that the Marines are a bunch of unattached mercenaries, and not the constitutionally formed fighting force of the United States. They seem not to understand the meaning of the courtroom phrase: John Doe Vs. the People of the United States of America.


The people of the United States of America don't take too kindly to those little independent jurisdictions that fool around with the constitutional rights of plain ole' ordinary citizens, much less the Marine Corps.


What can the Berkeley City Council be thinking?


The Controversy


In October 2006, the United States Marines opened a small recruiting office in the center of Berkeley, California within blocks of Berkeley City College, UC Berkeley and Berkeley High School. The recruiting office operated quite peacefully until about 4 months ago, when the ladies of Code Pink decided that the Marines do not have the same free-speech rights as other citizens. Code Pink decided to daily protest the recruitment office in an attempt to get the Marines out of town. This protest has taken various forms, aggravating perhaps, but for the most part peaceful.


Things began to heat up last week when the Berkeley City Council passed a resolution calling the Marines "unwelcome intruders" and asserting that the council would support all citizens who "volunteer to impede, passively or actively, by nonviolent means, the work of any military recruiting office located in the City of Berkeley." In addition, the council decided to give Code Pink a parking space across from the recruiting center, in which to hold demonstrations without paying a permit fee. Code Pink was also granted a sound license to blast loud messages aimed at the recruiters and those entering.

Emboldened by city support, activists with World Can't Wait last week donned the orange jumpsuits, symbolic of Guantanamo detainees, and chained themselves to the door of the Marines' office, thereby preventing entry. For five hours, Berkeley police watched as people were blocked from going in the recruiting office, and refused to intervene. Then, at the insistent behest of Marine Corps officials, three misdemeanor arrests of demonstrators were finally made.


In response to the Berkeley City Council's actions against our Marines, Senator Jim DeMint (R-SC) made the decision to introduce legislation stopping $2 million in federal earmark funds intended for various Berkeley projects, saying "This is a slap in the face to all brave service men and women and their families. The First Amendment gives the City of Berkeley the right to be idiotic, but from now on they should do it with their own money."


By 5:00 a.m. Tuesday, the developing controversy reached fever pitch when at least 2,000 protestors convened on both sides of the issue.


For the Marines, over a thousand volunteers from Move America Forward and Blue Star Families convened in Berkeley, carrying American flags and singing patriotic anthems like America the Beautiful and God Bless America.


Against the Marines, Code Pink and World Can't Wait garnered hundreds too, waving banners proclaiming among other sentiments:


"Join the Marines. Travel to exotic lands. Meet exciting unusual people. AND KILL THEM."


"No Military Predators in Our Town."


First Amendment Battle Ensues


By 6:00 a.m., things began to heat up and get downright ugly.


Two Blue Star moms were threatened with violence and one was shoved by a Code Pink lady, and when the mom called the Berkeley police for help, they hung up on her. Another call to the police was made by someone else with the same response.


Melanie Morgan, spokeswoman for Move America Forward, was in the middle of her morning KSFO radio program, called in from the scene in Berkeley. She told me yesterday that she honestly could not believe what was happening, and might not have believed it if she had not seen it with her own eyes.


The scene she encountered was one of "near mayhem," she told me. Cursing, shouting, profanities being hurled at moms and dads waving small American flags in support of our armed services.


Then high school students showed up. The students donned yellow and black "Palestinian" masks and t-shirts emblazoned with the charming slogan: "F*** Bush." Riding skateboards, they rammed into Move America Forward and Blue Star Families' peaceful protest. Some of the teens grabbed American flags from the hands of soldiers' moms and dads, and set them afire right in front of the startled parents. Police did nothing.

When I spoke today with Mark Coplan, Director of the Public Information Office for the Berkeley Unified School District, he was just as upset about the teen participation as was Melanie Morgan. These teens, he said, were recruited by World Can't Wait to "disrupt the peaceful protest."


According to Mr. Coplan, this teen recruitment has been a common strategy of World Can't Wait agitators, who have clashed with school authorities repeatedly in the past. Mr. Coplan was onsite at the demonstration himself, to make sure that students and teachers who had permission to observe the demonstration from a distance were not breaking the district's admonitions. He told me that he himself heard World Can't Wait demonstrators tell the students they had brought that they "did not have to listen to or obey any police instructions," that "they were participating in democracy at work," and that he personally saw older adults using teens as shields to harass and shove the peaceful counter-demonstrators.


World Can't Wait is an organization started in 2005 to actively thwart the American war effort. Its founder, Charles Clark Kissinger, is a Maoist and longtime leader of the Revolutionary Communist Party, who has stated his intention to organize "people living in the United States to take responsibility to stop the whole disastrous course led by the Bush administration." By "disastrous course" he means the war, specifically.


And of course, Code Pink's most visible spokesperson, Medea Benjamin, says her idea of heaven on earth is Castro's Cuba. Benjamin, readers may remember, is the patriotic American who spearheaded the effort in 2004 to hand over $600,000 in cash and supplies to the terrorist "insurgents" in Fallujah, Iraq. Why isn't that an act of treason? I must be too unsophisticated to understand.


So, we shouldn't be surprised when shameful un-American tactics are used by these people, as they were Tuesday in Berkeley.


But when a civil authority, such as the Berkeley Police, stand by while people are abridging the First Amendment rights of other citizens, then there is a huge problem.


Move America Forward has an attorney. He has written a formal protest letter to the City of Berkeley, citing numerous infractions of his client's First Amendment Rights, with the appearance of help from the police, and a lawsuit against the city is being considered.


Even though the Berkeley City Council went through the motions Tuesday night, listened to both sides of the Marine debate, and agreed to soften the language of its request to the Marines to vacate, not much has changed.


Code Pink gets to keep their parking space next to the recruiting center. They get to keep their cost-free permit to continue their agitating activities. And since Code Pink has posted a photo of Berkeley's mayor, Tom Bates, sporting a nauseatingly pink beret while he himself demonstrates with Code Pink at the recruitment office, I really don't think Berkeley has gotten the message.


So here's a clue from the whole South to those brazen folks in Berkeley:


The people of the United States of America do not possess unlimited patience with those who feel themselves above the Constitution that protects us all.


And y'all don't want to feel the wrath of Uncle Sam when he's had enough.


http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/02/berkeley_at_the_first_amendmen.html

The protesters in Berkley are tame compared to those outside abortion clinics.

The completed photo essay on the protests. I posted the initial incomplete one a few days ago. And yes, I know the commentary is "right wing" , but I have a liberal-site blocker on my firefox. ;)

http://www.zombietime.com/berkeley_marines_2-12-2008/

Benjamin, readers may remember, is the patriotic American who spearheaded the effort in 2004 to hand over $600,000 in cash and supplies to the terrorist "insurgents" in Fallujah, Iraq. Why isn't that an act of treason?

Face it.

If concocting a campaign of lies --as B*sh and his co-conspirators did-- designed to drag an entire nation into an unjust, unwarranted and illegal war is not treason, then nothing could ever said to be treason.

In addition, the council decided to give Code Pink a parking space across from the recruiting center.....

and in the SAME diatribe, we hear..............

Code Pink gets to keep their parking space next to the recruiting center.

Be more careful how you construct your lies, sir.

In the first claim, you say the parking place is across the street from the recruiting center. Later in the same post, you claim it is next to the recruitment center.

If you'd lie about that, you might stretch the truth in a few other places.

In fact, i'd be very surprised if we did not find out later that the claim --

He told me that he himself heard World Can't Wait demonstrators tell the students they had brought that they "did not have to listen to or obey any police instructions," that "they were participating in democracy at work," and that he personally saw older adults using teens as shields to harass and shove the peaceful counter-demonstrators.


-- isn't revealed to be a lie.

I have a hard time believing that dedicated pro-war demonstrators ---who were bussed in from hundreds of miles away, carrying flags, singing religious songs and taking to the streets to counter the evil Berkeley residents--- were not practicing a little bit of *violence* themselves.

The completed photo essay on the protests. I posted the initial incomplete one a few days ago. And yes, I know the commentary is "right wing" , but I have a liberal-site blocker on my firefox. ;)

http://www.zombietime.com/berkeley_marines_2-12-2008/
You know OP after studying your pics I didnt see one single act of violence.
I didnt see one single person prevented from accessing the recruiting office.
I saw two sets of protesters facing off across the street from each other,
no doubt fire hydrants are located on both sides of the street in California.
In fact all I seen was some name calling from both sides.

Here's a prime example of the pro-war crowd who came from out of town to tell the Berkely people what traitors they are.

http://www.zombietime.com/berkeley_marines_2-12-2008/IMG_1521.JPG

One look at that uber-patriotic ConservaZombie could clear the streets of all living things for two weeks.

Whew.

Also, from the link that OldPhart provided in post #363, here is what the author actually says---

"The students...are most likely unaware that World Can't Wait is a communist cult."

?!?!? Wow.

Then, just a few sentences later, it seems the writer of this screed had a different voice in his head telling him what to say, because he shifted the message a bit to --

""....these kids at the Berkeley rally were coached and trained by World Can't Wait, which is a Maoist revolutionary group""

You can't make this shit up................ROTFL.

You know OP after studying your pics I didnt see one single act of violence.
I didnt see one single person prevented from accessing the recruiting office.
I saw two sets of protesters facing off across the street from each other,
no doubt fire hydrants are located on both sides of the street in California.
In fact all I seen was some name calling from both sides.

I didn't say they were any "impediments" to access... I just posted the essay.

:)

You know OP after studying your pics I didnt see one single act of violence.
I didnt see one single person prevented from accessing the recruiting office.


The writer of ""Berkeley at the First Amendment Brink"", Kyle-Anne Shiver, talks about several acts of violence being directed at the pro-war protesters by various people.

Some guy who was there and took pictures and told about it in the first person said --- ""...aside from a few minor scuffles, there was no real violence at the protest, despite a lot of tension in the air.""

I wonder if this Shiver person was actually there?

If she was, she evidently watched a different protest.

I suppose it's entirely possible that doing Mr. Bush's deadly dirty work in the Middle East will be the best thing that ever happens in your life, but the statistics don't work in your favor. If you don't get a leg or arm (or both) blown off, if you aren't killed outright, odds are excellent that you will return with moderate to serious psychiatric or behavioral health issues.

Guess we'll just have to wait till your involvement in the Iraq occupation comes to and end, and you can let us know. I wish you the best.

Until then, I will continue to support those who work to bring an end to the brutality and misery fostered by this administration and its militaristic followers/adherents/minions.
Frannie, I would have thought you better than this. Your comments here are too sad to comprehend. My son (who like Jester... and the other "minions") is serving you and I in this conflict (whether you agree or not) are doing the best that they can. I have great faith in these young people... there again, I have no withered uterus like yourself, and have faith that they will return to us in great spirits. While I may not always agree with the premise of the war, I DO stand whole-heartedly behind our men/women that serve our country.

And Frannie, I'll toss you (as I have FT) into the basket of people that I will no longer respond to. Sorry, but there is a line I will not cross. Be well, and I hope you think of the guys/gals that give their all to preserve your rights to be an ass... They think enough of you to sacrifice everything.

While I may not always agree with our policies... I wish only the best for Jester (and my son) to represent me in this most difficult of situations. Come home well, do what you can, and I will always be proud of you. I have faith that you will do everything that you can to show what kind of people we really are. Godspeed, and God bless.

Pete

Maybe someone could pray tell how an American who is totally opposed to the conflict in Iraq SHOULD protest against it. SHOULD let their feelings be known.
From what I can see, if your against it,your labelled anti American, your labelled anti the troops.
Any suggestions.

Frannie, I would have thought you better than this. Your comments here are too sad to comprehend. My son (who like Jester... and the other "minions") is serving you and I in this conflict (whether you agree or not) are doing the best that they can.

Lets be realistic, they are not serving you and I.

They are obeying the orders of their commander in chief. Period.

Leper,

However, I note that my glaring example - military taxation and spending - is not regional in nature.
&
Um, "Be all you can be"? I must see that commericial a couple hundred times a year, and that's just the marines
&
I don't know about "feel," but the amount of resources a society designates for military purposes is a pretty dammn good indicator of militarism IMO.

Of militarism, maybe. But that's more of an indication of the proclivities of this particular administration and not the culture of the society, which is what we were talking about.
Where the government distibutes your money doesn't specifically influence your life day to day. That theory would also make us a welfare society.

So the more invasive the recruiting tactics, the less militaristic a society is? Interesting theory...
If the society were militaristic you wouldn't need, what some here consider, invasive recruiting.
Do you think there were "Be all you can be" commercials in Germany back then or in Israel today or in Iraq during the mid-70's?

I don't see how removing an employer's discretion to promote is a good thing for the employer.
I don't know if it is either. But I think the point you were stretching here was that bestowing extra benefits or honors upon a veteran is proof that we are militaristic.
Of course the fact that many military families are on food stamps somewhat negates that. As does the condition of the average VA Hospital.

As for shows, JAG, MASH, and Band of Brothers all spring to mind.
Okay, you went back 35 years to cite three examples.
The first is a show about two models who spend their time in a courtroom;
The second is an anti-war comedy that almost never showed combat or bravery, made the military bureaucracy look foolish and made the anti-military iconoclasts look heroic.
The third was positive but is about ten years old now.

What movies are you calling anti-military?
Going back a ways (but not as far back as your examples) gives us Platoon, Casualties of War, Full Metal Jacket, Thin Red Line, Jarhead, Born on the Fourth of July, etc....
MUCH more recently gives us In the Valley of Elah, Rendition, Redacted, Lions for Lambs, Stop Loss, etc.....

A militaristic society's movies would be on the order of a Leni Reifenstahl production, not Band of Brothers.
Our entertainment would actually discourage someone from joining the military.

I disagree. Our relations with the Middle East for example has had substantial effects on our society and culture.
How's that?

From this part of your post, it sounds like you're mixing up militarism with fascism.
No. I was comparing your military-nation thought process with another posters' fascist-nation thought process. I wasn't comparing fascism with militarism.

Militaristic societies don't necessarily involve a dictator or compulsory service - the Republic of Rome and Greek city-states spring to mind.
Whoa, I thought your "MASH" example was dusty.

Nationalism and popular support drives our militarism....
If what you're saying were true that would mean that the culture of a militaristic society would wax or wane based on the nation's polling at that point in time. The zeitgeist of a country wouldn't be so easy to change.



This is getting silly at this point. You're seeing things around you that I, probably along with most of the country, don't see.
Maybe it's regional, maybe you live near a base, I don't know.
But when you call this society militaristic you sound like the angry teenage girl who yells "you're the worst parents in the world" when she has never actually lived anywhere else.

Leper: ..."young people doing military demonstrations/exercises in college and high school...."
Brooks: "I've never seen this"
Freethinker:
I find that impossible to believe, if you are a police officer.

But then, maybe in your entire life you have never seen a single parade.

I don't know what being a police officer has to do with this but, no, I've never seen military students in high school or in college.

I didn't consider Leper's "military demonstrations/exercises" to include parades.
But, if veterans marching with fake white rifles constitutes a military exercise, then I guess I have seen that.

Maybe someone could pray tell how an American who is totally opposed to the conflict in Iraq SHOULD protest against it. SHOULD let their feelings be known.
From what I can see, if your against it,your labelled anti American, your labelled anti the troops.
Any suggestions.

That's a fair question.
But interlaced into the dynamic is also a sad cold fact,that
most those who " Protest " or " March " are also the same
slackers who don't or hardly work.Otherwise how could they find the
time to Protest.Not all Protestors can be students.Or Faclty.
I wonder how many " Protests " and " Marches " Ward Churchill
attended.Or better still ... Started.?

Its called financial blackmail. Show any decent and your funding will be cut.

You've put the cart before the horse here.
The first conversations was not "do this or we take your money".
It was "if you accept this money certain things will be expected of you".

That's much different. And the situation was within their control to avoid

Heck, here in the US we build weapons just for the sake of building weapons. Star Wars, for example: pure pork.
"the Reykjavik Summit led to the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, which some have claimed was an outgrowth of Gorbachev's fear of SDI."
http://www.wingsoverkansas.com/features/article.asp?id=721

"In reality, the SDI was only in the technological planning stages; the Soviets, however, bought America's bluff, prompting a quick and expensive advance in their lagging military technology. This increased spending further accelerated the Soviet economic decline."
http://www.espionageinfo.com/Co-Cop/Cold-War-1972-1989-the-Collapse-of-the-Soviet-Union.html


I can't find any of the interviews right now, but Gorbachev acknowledged much of this himself.
SDI, or Star Wars, in the end was extremely cost effective.

This is a new trend in our federal government to control state and local governments by withholding federal benefits. This is a problem.
This trend is in no way new.

Leper: ..."young people doing military demonstrations/exercises in college and high school...."
Brooks: "I've never seen this"
Freethinker:
I find that impossible to believe, if you are a police officer.

But then, maybe in your entire life you have never seen a single parade.

I don't know what being a police officer has to do with this...

Police officers are sometimes seen observing at parades to insure that nothing untoward happens. The police --in my state--- are very often in the parade.

And again, I cannot think of a parade, out of the hundreds i've seen, where there were not high school students (not just 'veterans') marching in the parade in military uniforms.

but, no, I've never seen military students in high school or in college.

Now your changing thr terms. No one said anything about **military students in high school or college"".

What we were discussing were military type demonstrations and/or military exercises being performed by high school or college studetns.

But, if veterans marching with fake white rifles constitutes a military exercise, then I guess I have seen that.

Riiiiiight.

But in your entire life, according to you, you have never seen any young people --such as students in the ROTC--doing military demonstrations or exercises in college or high school.

Pardon me, but I find that a bit hard to swallow.

I don't know what being a police officer has to do with this but, no, I've never seen military students in high school or in college.
Really? One of my best friends, and a fellow Ron Paul fan, is in the Air Force ROTC. One day a week, he has to put on his uniform and engage in PT. I'm sure there's a lot more involved in it, but I don't know the details.

I will occasionally see groups (I don't know the military term for a small group like this) marching around campus as well, in uniform.

Freethinker
Allforums Elder Join Date: Oct 09, 2003
Location: Bizarro Bushworld
Posts: 10,003

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogger
In addition, the council decided to give Code Pink a parking space across from the recruiting center.....


and in the SAME diatribe, we hear..............


Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogger
Code Pink gets to keep their parking space next to the recruiting center.


Be more careful how you construct your lies, sir.



In the first claim, you say the parking place is across the street from the recruiting center. Later in the same post, you claim it is next to the recruitment center.

If you'd lie about that, you might stretch the truth in a few other places.

In fact, i'd be very surprised if we did not find out later that the claim --


Quote:
He told me that he himself heard World Can't Wait demonstrators tell the students they had brought that they "did not have to listen to or obey any police instructions," that "they were participating in democracy at work," and that he personally saw older adults using teens as shields to harass and shove the peaceful counter-demonstrators.



-- isn't revealed to be a lie.

I have a hard time believing that dedicated pro-war demonstrators ---who were bussed in from hundreds of miles away, carrying flags, singing religious songs and taking to the streets to counter the evil Berkeley residents--- were not practicing a little bit of *violence* themselves.

Your response to the article I posted is a typical example of how you twist the truth. You have placed quotes around selected parts of the article with my name in front of them in an attempt to make it seem they were my words and not simply words taken from an article I posted. Be more careful about the accusations you make, Freethinker. I posted an article. If you disagree with the article disagree with it but do not accuse me of making the statement of being a liar or to accuse me of making up facts.. You might find fault with the article but that does not give you the right to call me a liar. I have the same response for you I had for dharmabum.

OldPhart,

i just wanted to remind you that not everyone who is against the war is anti-military. There are posters here who are anti-war and who I know for a fact honor our men and women who are serving in the military.

Please do not mistake the feelings expressed by Freethinker and Fran as indicative of those of all the anti-war posters here.

When you next communicate with your son give him my thanks and my warm regards for the service he is doing his country.

Police officers are sometimes seen observing at parades to insure that nothing untoward happens. The police --in my state--- are very often in the parade.I see now.


Now your changing thr terms. No one said anything about **military students in high school or college"".

What we were discussing were military type demonstrations and/or military exercises being performed by high school or college studetns.

But in your entire life, according to you, you have never seen any young people --such as students in the ROTC--doing military demonstrations or exercises in college or high school.

Pardon me, but I find that a bit hard to swallow.

It's funny, I guess Leper was right when he said it was a regional thing. When he mentioned high school students in uniforms or in military exercises that sounded completely foreign to me.
I'll say it again - I have never seen that in my entire life.
Maybe the northeastern culture is not as geared toward service, of any kind, as the rest of the country and that's reflected in school programs.

But I promise you, I have absolutely no exposure to anything like that.

Brooks,

It has been my experience that Junior ROTC is more prevelant in poorer and in minority districts. At least that is the case on Long Island. Brentwood, a poor, minority district has one of the largest and most active Junior Air Force ROTC groups in New York. Other, similar organizations can be found in districts like Central Islip. I'll bet if you check out Wyandanch you will find they have an active Junior ROTC.

OldPhart,

i just wanted to remind you that not everyone who is against the war is anti-military. There are posters here who are anti-war and who I know for a fact honor our men and women who are serving in the military.

Our military services fill an important and necessary purpose, and I fully support certain of their actions throughout our history. Similarly, I fully support the individuals who volunteer to put their lives on the line to fight for legitimate causes.

I do not, however, support the misuse/abuse/destruction of our military services by war-mongering administration leaders. Nor do I have much respect for those who would join the military in order to support this administration's unwarranted wars of aggression against nations/groups that are not (or at least, WERE not) our enemies. Signing up to fight for a legitimate cause is honorable; Mr. Bush's Happy Little War in Iraq is not a legitimate cause.

While I very much regret that so many misled members of our military are being wounded and killed in support of Mr. Bush's personal-vendetta-based war/occupation of Iraq, I find it nearly impossible to respect them for contributing to an illegitimate and illegal purpose, because in doing so they actually weaken our military, our country, and its standing as a respected world power.

People who really love America are unhappy with the ENTIRE Iraq situation, and that includes being unhappy with those who expend their own energies (in any way) to contribute to it. I'm sure Jester and OldPhart's son are decent humans who are trying to be noble and honorable by signing up to fight Mr. Bush's personal war; the problem is, by adding their bodies to the available Cannon Fodder list, they promote and add strength to the idea that America is bent on taking over the Middle East, that ME oil is our raison d'etre, that we are a nation of idiots easily duped by corrupt leaders who are bent on dominating other nations for no legitimate purpose, and on and on and on. For those reasons, today's volunteers are also, sadly, little more than the tools of a war-hungry and deeply corrupt adminsitration.

When you next communicate with your son give him my thanks and my warm regards for the service he is doing his country.

I'd thank your son for trying to do the right thing, but that's about as far as I can go. Unfortunately, his service in this war ultimately harms our country more than helps it.

:(

So according to Frannie, everyone who joins the military is a misled supporter of the war, and enlisted because of that. That goes a long way to explain her views on the subject.

And I certainly do not encourage our idealistic youngsters to sign their lives/limbs/minds away in pursuit of Mr. Bush's failed Iraq policy.

If that makes me a horrible person in the eyes of others, I'll live with it.You certainly should not encourage it, but it's not up to you to discourage it either. I think with the best of intentions you're saying that you know what's best for an individual you've never met.
It's sweet but it's also condescending.

So according to Frannie, everyone who joins the military is a misled supporter of the war

No, just those who joined after it became clear that the reasons for our invasion and occupation of Iraq had no basis in reality. Remember, it wasn't only people in the military that were lied to - the entire WORLD was lied to - some of us just saw the truth/reality of what was being done in the name of "security" and "freedom" far sooner than others.

and enlisted because of that

No, but those who DID enlist to lend their support to our illegal invasion and subsequent occupation of Iraq are being used by this administration for illegal and illegitimate purposes. Sorry, it's just not in me to fake support for something so vile and reprehensible as "pre-emptive" war, complete with on-high approval for torture. Neither of these are "The American Way," and I am disgusted that my country has abandoned its own morality, ethics and integrity.

You certainly should not encourage it, but it's not up to you to discourage it either. I think with the best of intentions you're saying that you know what's best for an individual you've never met.
It's sweet but it's also condescending.

Um. I haven't discouraged it.

I have my personal feelings about those who sign up to fight Mr. Bush's Happy Little War in Iraq, but I don't don't protest at recruitment centers and I don't speak to military wannabes with the idea of dissuading them from joining. If they wish to risk life and limb for a pack of lies, that's their option.

I think it's terribly foolish and a tragic waste, but I believe in live and let live. Do whatever you want to. I won't stand in the way. But I might have some thoughts on the matter, nevertheless.

Since there seems to be some very limited knowledge of our military services, evidenced by some posting here in this thread, I thought I would do those people's homework (since they are too busy thinking all military personnel are "stupid" and are shipped only to Iraq...to be a minion of "Bush's war").

Those, like Jester, that are serving in Iraq are doing a duty they have volunteered for. You do not have to be a great fan of the current administration (or even like them) in order to perform necessary work in Iraq or any service area and situation. I'll let Jester say how it is going where he is at, but many of us hope that his (and the others there) work in the middle east can assist in a situation that we helped create.

From Wikipedia (U.S Military personnel distribution)..


Overseas

As of 2003, U.S. troops were stationed at more than 820 installations in at least 39 countries. Some of the largest contingents are:

Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) 75,603
Japan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan) (United States Forces Japan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Forces_Japan)) 40,045
South Korea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Korea) (United States Forces Korea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Forces_Korea)) 29,086
Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy) 10,449
United Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom) 10,331

As of May 5, 2007, there were about 160,000 U.S. troops in Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq), according to Lt. Gen. Ray Odierno, the commander of day-to-day operations for Operation Iraqi Freedom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Iraqi_Freedom). About 19,500 U.S. troops are engaged elsewhere throughout the Middle East (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East), with the bulk in Operation Enduring Freedom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Enduring_Freedom) in Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan).

Within the United States

Including U.S. territories and ships afloat within territorial waters
A total of 1,112,684 personnel are on active duty within the United States including:

Continental U.S. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_United_States) 900,088
Hawaii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii) 33,343
Alaska (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska) 17,714
Afloat 109,119
Guam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guam) 3,784
Puerto Rico (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rico) 1,552
BTW... my son's service is directly related to protection and defense of America's west coast.... yep, he serves to protect those ding-bats in Beserkely, among others... LOL.

Fran's view seems to be those who joined the military at a time when she wasnt ticked at the President are okay but those who have joined since Bush was elected are simply naive, brainwashed fools.

I fully support the individuals who volunteer to put their lives on the line to fight for legitimate causes.

By which she means causes she agrees with. Those with which she disagrees she dismisses as illegitimate causes.


Signing up to fight for a legitimate cause is honorable; Mr. Bush's Happy Little War in Iraq is not a legitimate cause.

In other words both Jester and OldPhart's son are not honorable since they are fighting for a dishonorable cause.


While I very much regret that so many misled members of our military are being wounded and killed in support of Mr. Bush's personal-vendetta-based war/occupation of Iraq, I find it nearly impossible to respect them for contributing to an illegitimate and illegal purpose, because in doing so they actually weaken our military, our country, and its standing as a respected world power.

Once again, Fran calls Jester and OldPhart's son misled and said she finds it nearly impossible to respect them.People who really love America are unhappy with the ENTIRE Iraq situation, and that includes being unhappy with those who expend their own energies (in any way) to contribute to it. [/quote]

Not only does Fran find it nearly impossible to respect them, she feel all people who really love America shoud be unhappy with them. by differentiating between Jester and OldPhart's son and their fellow soldiers and people who really love America she is suggesting they don't really love their country

No, just those who joined after it became clear that the reasons for our invasion and occupation of Iraq had no basis in reality (are disillusioned..)

Once again Fran calls them disillusioned.

[quote=Fran]I have my personal feelings about those who sign up to fight Mr. Bush's Happy Little War in Iraq

Yes, we know Fran's personal feelings about our military who signed up within the last few years. She considers them disillusioned and almost impossible to respect.


Fran has shown us just how she feels about the young men and women in our military. She has been damned by her own words. I don't blame OldPhart for no longer wanting to respond to her posts.

OldPhart,

i just wanted to remind you that not everyone who is against the war is anti-military. There are posters here who are anti-war and who I know for a fact honor our men and women who are serving in the military.

Please do not mistake the feelings expressed by Freethinker and Fran as indicative of those of all the anti-war posters here.

When you next communicate with your son give him my thanks and my warm regards for the service he is doing his country.
Frogger,

I have no problem with anyone who is against the war in Iraq, Afganistan, or wherever. To be honest I'm not a great fan of the Iraq mess myself... but we need to try our best to fix what we broke.

I only have a problem with those that equate our military personnel to the politicians that are in charge. This is the issue that I have with the Code Pinkers at Berkely and some of the posters here. To deride those that serve, especially when some of them are considered forum "friends" who intelligently and thoughtfully participate on these forums, is about as low as a human can sink... even while hiding behind their monitor on a political forum... IMHO.

I'll send your regards to my son also. Thank you. He is not in it for the "honors", or for the money (LOL), he did it for himself. Although it did bring a tear to my eye when he was in uniform on leave a few years back, and a WWII veteran and his wife took the time to hug him, tell him thanks, and give him their best wishes (I thought I saw his eyes get a little moist too... but don't let him know that).

["legitimate causes"] By which she means causes she agrees with.

The causes I’m referring to specifically concern our invasion and occupation of Iraq, which were neither necessary nor warranted, were based on a carefully orchestrated set of dire but utterly false warnings, threats and lies passionately presented by our leaders with the specific purpose of duping Americans and the world, were inadequately equipped and planned for beforehand, have diverted our attention, resources and energies from the real business at hand which is to wipe al Qaeda off the skin of the earth, have no ultimate conclusion, and have stripped our once honorable country and its citizens of their global/collective integrity, ethics, and morality.

The result of our illegitimate invasion/occupation of Iraq is thousands of soldiers and civilians killed, hundreds of thousands permanently maimed and/or psychologically damaged, cities and infrastructures destroyed, governments and nations in turmoil, massive and crippling debt, and absolutely no way to extricate ourselves or the Iraqis from the pit we’ve dug in their front yard.

I bear no ill will toward those fighting in Iraq and greatly respect our veterans from wars past. I think today’s recruits are foolish to risk themselves for something so tragic and pointless but I also know they’re sincerely trying to clean up an impossible mess not of their making. I’d like nothing better than to have them all safely delivered home into the arms of their loved ones this very minute and my greatest hope is that not one more life is lost or destroyed by our presence in Iraq. But the sad, ugly truth is, the more people we send there, the more lives will be destroyed.

If you wish to characterize me as “hating the troops,” be my guest; your opinion of me doesn’t even register on my radar, but I do hope it encourages you to put me on Ignore. :)

It was your words, not mine, Fran. If you didn't mean them you shouldn't have posted them.

It was your words, not mine, Fran. If you didn't mean them you shouldn't have posted them.

I stand by every word.

How sad that is.

Frannie,
All I can say is that you're dead wrong about us, our reasons for joining, our reasons for fighting, and our views on the war. There might be a handful of servicemembers who fit your little stereotype, but I've never met one and I'm willing to bet that you haven't either. It would serve you well to learn more about us before you form your sweeping, condescending, and utterly inaccurate views of us.

How sad that is.
Only for those who are too dumb to see what she's saying.

Oooooh! That hurt, Overdose. Your cutting wit is just one of the reasons I respect you so much.

Oooooh! That hurt, Overdose. Your cutting wit is just one of the reasons I respect you so much.
lol i wasn't trying to be witty. wtf?