You always hear that "statistics are for losers", and it's all about winning. Winning is good, but for a Quarterback, winning is not JUST you.. it takes multiple factors for a QB to get a Super Bowl.

I didn't want to thread jack another thread.. but I have deemed Tom Brady as the "Joe Montana" of this era... and keep in mind, Montana was my favorite player growing up.

But now looking back in perspective... Montana and Brady were put in very similar situations. They had solid defenses to shut down most other offenses to 17 points or less, They had great protection to sit in the pocket, and They had an incredible arsenal of weapons. Montana more-so than Brady in the last department.. but if you think about it...

Terry Bradshaw - 4 Super Bowl rings
Joe Montana - 4 Super Bowl rings
Tom Brady - 3 Super Bowl rings

I wouldn't put any of them in the top 3, or even maybe top 5 Quarterbacks of all time. What is a Quarterback's job? To score points. And while those 3 guys have the rings, It wasn't because they lit up the scoreboard, it was because of their Defenses. Let's look at some comparisons:

Terry Bradshaw-27,879 yards, 212 TD passes (14 years) *1 MVP
Joe Montana- 40,551 yards, 273 TD passes (17 years) *2 MVP's
Tom Brady- 26,370 yards, 197 TD passes (8 years) *1 MVP

and here are the others

John Elway 59,006 yards, 417 TD passes (16 years) *1 MVP
Dan Marino- 61,361 yards, 420 TD passes (17 years) *1 MVP
Fran Tarkenton- 47,003 yards, 342 TD passes (18 years) *1 MVP
Johnny Unitas- 40,239 yards, 290 TD passes (18 years) *3 MVP's
Dan Fouts- 43,040 yards, 254 TD passes (15 years) *1 MVP
Jim Kelly- 35,467 yards, 337 TD passes (11 years)
Warren Moon- 49,325 yards, 291 TD passes (17 years)
Brett Favre- 61,655 yards, 442 TD passes (17 years) *2 MVP's
Peyton Manning- 41,531 yards, 306 TD passes (10 years) *2 MVP's
Troy Aikman- 32,942 yards, 165 TD passes (12 years)
Steve Young- 33,124 yards, 232 TD passes (15 years) *2 MVP's

So... based on these numbers... all winning QB's with great abilities... I decided to make a formula. Divide the # of years they played by the # of passing yards for one category, and then # of years divided by the # of TD passes in another..and here is what I came up with.

Passing Yards
Manning 4,153
Elway 3,687
Favre 3,626
Marino 3,609
Brady 3,296
Kelly 3,224
Moon 2,901
Fouts 2,869
Aikman 2,754
Tarkenton 2,611
Montana 2,385
Unitas 2,235
Young 2,208
Bradshaw 1,991

Touchdown Passes
Kelly 30
Manning 30
Elway 26
Favre 26
Marino 25
Brady 24
Tarkenton 19
Fouts 17
Moon 17
Unitas 16
Montana 16
Young 15
Bradshaw 15
Aikman 13

Super Bowl Championships
Bradshaw 4
Montana 4
Unitas 3
Young 3
Brady 3
Aikman 3
Elway 2
Manning 1
Favre 1
Kelly 0
Moon 0
Marino 0
Tarkenton 0
Fouts 0


So... how do we tell who is the "best ever"?? Maybe we can come up with a formula. I would keep on going but it's getting late, I'll add more later, and feel free to add suggestions or comments about my takes.

How about this for a formula:

Jerry Rice + Joe Montana = Best QB, and for that matter receiver, ever.

GG!

I read in a book once, about the Green Bay Packers, that Bart Starr, stat-wise, was never the best quarterback in the league.

But he was always (or usually) the best quarterback in the particular game he was playing.

To me, that's the real measure of greatness.

Here's another way to test criteria:

Say your team is in a big big game. They're at their own 2 yard line and have less than a minute and a half to march downfield and go ahead by a point or two.

Who do you want as your QB?
You can choose any in history.

My choice--Joe Montana. The guy had ice water in his veins! No one was better at bringing his team back under impossible odds,from the brink of defeat, time and time again.

Joe Cool.........

I think a good way to measure is to see how different the team is when that QB is playing and when he's not.

The 49ers flourished even after Montana left. Steve Young anyone? That tells me that the 49ers were a great all around team - I think Jerry Rice had a hell of a lot to do with QB success there.

The Patriots were decent with Bledsoe at QB, but when Brady took over, that team came alive. You could argue that Bledsoe is just a bad QB, but he's been the QB for several teams with winning records (and respectable offenses). Anyways, the difference between the Patriots playing with Brady and without him tells me that Brady makes an individual contribution on the level of a great QB.

Even this year you can see an example with Moss becoming a Patriot. Before Moss arrived in New England, people thought he was past his prime, but when matched up with Brady, he broke records. The difference? Brady at QB.

I think a good way to measure is to see how different the team is when that QB is playing and when he's not.

The 49ers flourished even after Montana left. Steve Young anyone? That tells me that the 49ers were a great all around team - I think Jerry Rice had a hell of a lot to do with QB success there.


I agree Montana had the benefit of a great line, great (and all time best) recievers, a great tight end, and some good running backs. Plus a soild D... Young picked up right where Montana left off.

The Patriots were decent with Bledsoe at QB, but when Brady took over, that team came alive. You could argue that Bledsoe is just a bad QB, but he's been the QB for several teams with winning records (and respectable offenses). Anyways, the difference between the Patriots playing with Brady and without him tells me that Brady makes an individual contribution on the level of a great QB.


Yes, When Brady took over the Patriots did excel more than with Bledsoe, but Bledsoe DID lead them to a super bowl, and he also is in the top 10 in all time yardage. I think a big factor you are forgetting is the defense the QB has backing him up. Brady could have a crappy/average game pretty much any of those super bowl years, but his defense would hold others to 10-17 points. You also have to take into account whether or not the guy has tons of time to throw the ball or has to get rid of it right away.

Even this year you can see an example with Moss becoming a Patriot. Before Moss arrived in New England, people thought he was past his prime, but when matched up with Brady, he broke records. The difference? Brady at QB.

I disagree. We all knew what Randy Moss was capable of. His first few years in the league with the vikings, he was THE best reciever in the league. He'd make circus catches on a daily basis, he was a man-beast among "children" (5'10" cornerbacks), and he made Randall Cunningham look like the best quarterback ever. What was the forumula? Randy.. go long, I'll bomb it to ya in double coverage, you make the catch.

Moss went to the Raiders, we all know his off-the-field AND on-the-field problems. We all know he has had issues, had some growing up to do, and was documented saying he didn't even care about football.

Being picked up by the Pats, a winning organization, has refocused this sleeping giant. Brady is NOT the reason Moss is breaking TD records. Moss had the ability to be the best reciever in the league every year he played. However, he admitted to "taking plays off" and "not caring"... but that was when he was in the worst organization in football- the Raiders.

So, in conclusion, don't give Brady credit for Moss's success this year.

What is a Quarterback's job? To score points. And while those 3 guys have the rings, It wasn't because they lit up the scoreboard, it was because of their Defenses.

I don't think you can go strictly by yardage or points scored to come up with who's the best quarterback because there are so many factors involved. A team with a good running attack is going to make the quarterback put up less yardage and fewer TDs, regardless of how good he is. Consistently good teams are going to be consistently in the lead and will tend to start running the ball alot in the 4th quarter. Teams with bad receivers or bad o-lines are going to make the QB look bad.

I don't think you can go strictly by yardage or points scored to come up with who's the best quarterback because there are so many factors involved. A team with a good running attack is going to make the quarterback put up less yardage and fewer TDs, regardless of how good he is. Consistently good teams are going to be consistently in the lead and will tend to start running the ball alot in the 4th quarter. Teams with bad receivers or bad o-lines are going to make the QB look bad.

I absolutely agree Lionel... Here are some scenarios:

A good defense = less points need to be scored, more time on the field to get comfortable/in a groove, A 3-and-out, sack, interception, fumble can be a huge momentum shift which effects the whole team.

A good offensive line = more time in the pocket, more time for a defense to break down, less fear of being sacked/more confidence, a better running game meaning the threat of play-action, More yards per run = less yards on 3rd down to get a first, longer time out on the field, more time to get in a groove.

However, Even though we can't nail it down completely accurately, there has GOT to be a formula to which yardage, TD passes, INT's, MVP's, Super Bowl Rings, and even 4th quarter production can come up with a decent rating of who is REALLY the best of the best. You also have to take into account the eras of football, because the passing game was not nearly used as much back in the 60's-70's as it is now.

Now.. for my motivational speech... maybe WE, the allforums sports gurus, can come up with a formula that fairly balances all of the facets of a quarterback, and puts the proper importance on events. We can break down stats and rings and eras into a point system, and come up with OUR pick as the best QB of all time, no matter who it is... Anyone else up for the task? Because I know I'll need to bounce ideas off people to know if I'm full of it.

What if after we decide on a formula, it places Brady over Peyton?

Steve Bartkowski... no line and no receivers... I'm surprised he didn't actually get killed when he played.

:D

What if after we decide on a formula, it places Brady over Peyton?

Well, then you know your formula is faulty!



Sorry, just wanted to mess with Decka, too ;)

Hey, the numbers are the numbers... I doubt that it would happen, but if it did, so be it.

Greatness in the NFL is based on Superbowl wins mainly, but being a good QB plays a big part in it. No one would claim Trent Dilfer was a better QB then Dan MArino simply becasue he won a SB, but then again marino will always have that "Ya but" after his name.

Steve Bartkowski... no line and no receivers... I'm surprised he didn't actually get killed when he played.

:D

kinda reminded me of doug flutie his last two seasons... only ol' Bart would take the hit right behind the center.... not run like he has a nest of bees after him ...then take the hit...

Say your team is in a big big game. They're at their own 2 yard line and have less than a minute and a half to march downfield and go ahead by a point or two.

Who do you want as your QB?
You can choose any in history.



Growing up watching football during the 49'ers dynasty of the mid to late 80's I do agree Montana was an exceptional quarterback...

however in a 200 minute drill for the game I would take Elway everytime... Didnt care for him much and think he spent what should of been his best years in the weaker AFC,when Buffalo and Kelly were the top stars in the AFC,and we had a NFC Superbowl champion for more years than I would like to count.

Well we seem to be talking about two different things. There are great "clutch" players and then there are just plain "Great" players... in basketball.. Jerry West was probably the greatest "clutch" player of all time. I can name many other players who could hit the big shot and are nowhere near being called the "greatest of all time"... Robert Horry, John Starks, Reggie Miller, etc....

So we can account a "clutch" factor into it, but it's not JUST about with 2:00 minutes left, it's about the whole chibang... if thats a word LOL.

I think first, if anyone is on board with me to try to come up with a formula, is to define an order of importance. What is more important for QB to be called the greatest???:

# of super wins?
# of MVP's?
# of TD passes?

Like I stated earlier, and Trav with his Trent Dilfer reference, a super bowl win does not make a great QB... Being a Peyton manning fan, I can definitely admit that it was NOT Manning who "took the team on his shoulders" and won that super bowl. If you recall, that entire postseason, Manning played average at best. It was his DEFENSE that won it for them. That's why I happen to value the ability to get into the endzone more than "Super bowl wins".. because getting into the endzone requires more QB involvement.

This is my problem with counting touchdown passes...

say you have a year like 2000 where there were 15 1000 rushers for the season...... clearly for a few season we had more concentration on rushing offenses than passing..... Or what if a great quarterback spends part of his career on a team that runs a conservative pass offense...
Or even take Joe Montana..... He was a Excellent quarterback.... but how many times did he toss a 10 yard screen and Jerry rice took it down the field 50 years or more for a touchdown.......

However touchdown passes are an important stat,but INT are not good either.... I have seen Brett Farve and Drew Bledso toss for over 350 yards in games and have just as many INTs as touchdowns... I think in '95 Bledso tossed 45 passes in a game... What about when the game is close and they kick a field goal VS going for a TD..... I think every quarterback past present and future would rather win a game than score a few TDs

it was like one year when Mark Mcgwire were gwireclose at the end of the season..... only Sammy was on a team in playoff contention and Mark was not.... mark got to swing for the fences every pitch and Sammy did what was good for his team and was a team player and got on base when told.

LOL, as a Browns fan, the words "John Elway" are BAD WORDS at my house.

I used to hate his guts but have found he's actually not a bad guy personally. This happens frequently when you go to find out what these people are really like off the field. I am actually starting to even like Bill Cowher, now that he's not the Pittspuke coach anymore. He's so intense.

LOL, as a Browns fan, the words "John Elway" are BAD WORDS at my house.

I used to hate his guts but have found he's actually not a bad guy personally. This happens frequently when you go to find out what these people are really like off the field. I am actually starting to even like Bill Cowher, now that he's not the Pittspuke coach anymore. He's so intense.

I know what you mean. Before the football season started, my dad and I were both hoping that after Crennel gets fired (see how optimistic we were about the Browns season? LOL) that we could lure Cowher to Cleveland. Out of the other 3 AFC North teams, my dad actually hates Pittsburgh the least. He loves power running backs and after Jerome Bettis shredded us several times in the 90s he couldn't really bring himself to hate the team with his favorite running back on it.

As for John Elway, my mom still changes the channel anytime ESPN starts showing clips of the drive because, "it still breaks my heart."

This is my problem with counting touchdown passes...

say you have a year like 2000 where there were 15 1000 rushers for the season...... clearly for a few season we had more concentration on rushing offenses than passing..... Or what if a great quarterback spends part of his career on a team that runs a conservative pass offense...
Or even take Joe Montana..... He was a Excellent quarterback.... but how many times did he toss a 10 yard screen and Jerry rice took it down the field 50 years or more for a touchdown.......

However touchdown passes are an important stat,but INT are not good either.... I have seen Brett Farve and Drew Bledso toss for over 350 yards in games and have just as many INTs as touchdowns... I think in '95 Bledso tossed 45 passes in a game... What about when the game is close and they kick a field goal VS going for a TD..... I think every quarterback past present and future would rather win a game than score a few TDs

it was like one year when Mark Mcgwire were gwireclose at the end of the season..... only Sammy was on a team in playoff contention and Mark was not.... mark got to swing for the fences every pitch and Sammy did what was good for his team and was a team player and got on base when told.


I realize that game situations will change play calling (except for the Pats this year, who would bomb a 60 yd TD pass with 4 seconds left in the first half winning 35-7) ... and we can't nail it down completely, but I think it all evens out over a career, for the most part. QB's will be in games where they will want to control the clock, and they will be in shoot outs.