If God or Gods exist does that equate to the need to worship them. Human History indicates that if God or Gods are real then they are the selective God types. While the different God beliefs through out Human history are only out numbered by the grains of Sand on a Beach. Is there any indication in Human History of a Universal God Type.

Up to the Jewish religion there were warehouses full of Gods to choose from. A tribe, town, city or community would choose which of the Gods were their primary Gods and Secondary Gods. Much like the Catholic Religions Saints. Each Saint has his/her specialty and you pray to them first and then you work your way up the ladder if the lesser Gods/Saints do not give you what you want.

If God or Gods are a reality. Then this would indicate that either a single God appeared differently and gave different laws and commandments to hundred of thousands of different groups or that Thousands of Gods selectively picked their groups and established their names, images and persona's within those groups.

When the Jewish Religion came along they adopted a Single God belief. Their God was a Selective God Type, He established His name, image and persona with the Jews, gave them his laws and commandments. And did not apply that name, image, persona, laws and commandments to those outside of His chosen people.

Islam an offshoot of Judeaism was much the same. Until Islam reacted to Christian incursions they pretty much let others believe as they wished and worship the Gods they wished. The first Universal God Type did not come into existance until Christianity came along.

Christianity took the single Selective God Type and turned Him into a Single Universal God Type named Jesus. While it is not uncommon to reject the authority of other Gods while accepting the authority of your God. It is the first time that someone not only rejected all other Gods and their authority but put forth that their God and his authority is Universal and apply's to all people.

The question would be even if a God or Gods truly exist is there any requirement to worship them. Based on human history I would have to say no. Those people who accepted a God were required to obey that Gods laws and commandments and worship that particular God. But those who did not accept that God were not required to obey the laws, commandments or worship a God that they had not accepted.

The Christians Single Universal God Type has only existed for some two thousand years prior to that all Gods were Selective God Types. And since both the Hindu and Islamic religions rival the Christian religion in numbers and prosperity. It appears that the Christian Universal God Type Jesus is either incapable or unwilling to challenge the Hindu or Islamic God religions.

To me this negates the Christian claim that Jesus is a Universal God Type who's law, commandments and Worship is required of all people. If Jesus is incapable of or is unwilling to challenge rival GodHood Beliefs then Jesus cannot be a Universal God Type as claimed. But is only a Selective God Type as all other God or Gods. And as such Jesus's laws, commandments and worship can be ignored or rejected by those who do not follow the Jesus GodHood.

Or it could simply be that there are no God or Gods and that the history of mankind does nothing more then show the inherent insanity of mankind in General Yep that must be it.

I get It.
If'n there WAS a GoD,you'd work overtime proving there wasn't.
Just to appear relevant.
That is Mankinds downfall.

If God or Gods are real and gave evidence that they were real. Then how could their existance be questioned by me or anyone else. But to date no God or Gods have given any Universal evidence of their existance let alone Universal Evidence of what their laws commands or wishes are.

If God or Gods are real and gave evidence that they were real. Then how could their existance be questioned by me or anyone else. But to date no God or Gods have given any Universal evidence of their existance let alone Universal Evidence of what their laws commands or wishes are.

The Catholic Church has hundreds of documented cases of Miracles.
In fact,that is why Mother Teresa is not officially declared a Saint.
It takes a minimum of 5 years for the Church in Rome,with all their
experience and expertise to document what constitutes a Miracle.
A Requirement to be declared a Saint,is if a Miracle took place
in their presence.
Like the Miracle of - Our Lady of Fatima -.
I know it sounds hokey,but Miracles DO Happen.

Depending on your place of residence, not participating in worship could result in punishments ranging from social rebukes to death. So believe, bitch.

If God or Gods are real and gave evidence that they were real. Then how could their existance be questioned by me or anyone else. But to date no God or Gods have given any Universal evidence of their existance let alone Universal Evidence of what their laws commands or wishes are.
Yawn.... try again.

Faith is the belief of things unseen and unknown. Your signiture tells me that you are no more than a "shit stirrer" (unless you think that all Christians believe the Bible is the infallable word).

Try another board.... maybe thebibleisperfect.com or maybe Iknowallthereistoknowaboutgod.com. Otherwise, just try to "prove" anything when it comes to spirituality... go ahead.... knock yourself out.

The Catholic Church has hundreds of documented cases of Miracles.
In fact,that is why Mother Teresa is not officially declared a Saint.
It takes a minimum of 5 years for the Church in Rome,with all their
experience and expertise to document what constitutes a Miracle.
A Requirement to be declared a Saint,is if a Miracle took place
in their presence.
Like the Miracle of - Our Lady of Fatima -.
I know it sounds hokey,but Miracles DO Happen.

Miracles are not evidence of God or Gods existance. There are far to many other things that could have been in play to account for the miracle. If the miracles even occured. The honesty of the Catholic church in all things is not above reproach.

Also keep in mind I said Universal Evidence for Existance and for laws and commandments.

Yawn.... try again.

Faith is the belief of things unseen and unknown. Your signiture tells me that you are no more than a "shit stirrer" (unless you think that all Christians believe the Bible is the infallable word).

Try another board.... maybe thebibleisperfect.com or maybe Iknowallthereistoknowaboutgod.com. Otherwise, just try to "prove" anything when it comes to spirituality... go ahead.... knock yourself out.

No,Obviously certain Brats of Life,have never truly been tested.
Up until now,they haven't had a good reason to believe in much
beyond their comphy,quite satisfied world.Usually these types aren't
old enough to face the reality of what age does to one.They also
haven't been thru the mill.Probably lead a life w/o much risk or gain
or anything to be thankfull,cautious or worrisome over.
Untested couch potato's,more like it.

Miracles are not evidence of God or Gods existance. There are far to many other things that could have been in play to account for the miracle. If the miracles even occured. The honesty of the Catholic church in all things is not above reproach.

Also keep in mind I said Universal Evidence for Existance and for laws and commandments.

I know...I know.
Life doesn't prove anything.
Mankinds existence doesn't prove anything.
Whatever happens in Life doesn't prove anything.
Only what simpleton Atheist,like you think ... Proves anything.
Are ya kinda gettin the drift at how Stuck on Stupid,you appear.

Old Fart

I have not the Foggiest idea of what you are tripping on?

I know...I know.
Life doesn't prove anything.
Mankinds existence doesn't prove anything.
Whatever happens in Life doesn't prove anything.
Only what simpleton Atheist,like you think ... Proves anything.
Are ya kinda gettin the drift at how Stuck on Stupid,you appear.


Actually I am a Theist. I simply reject the Christian, Moslem and Jewish Gods. I like God myself. I just dispise people who claim to speak in Gods name when God has not said SH/T

No,Obviously certain Brats of Life,have never truly been tested.
Up until now,they haven't had a good reason to believe in much
beyond their comphy,quite satisfied world.Usually these types aren't
old enough to face the reality of what age does to one.They also
haven't been thru the mill.Probably lead a life w/o much risk or gain
or anything to be thankfull,cautious or worrisome over.
Untested couch potato's,more like it. That sir is total crap! There are plenty of old atheist who were believers at one time. They just finally saw the light. Unlike you! People can be thankful, cautious or worrisome without some supernatural being in the mix.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foolsworth
No,Obviously certain Brats of Life,have never truly been tested.
Up until now,they haven't had a good reason to believe in much
beyond their comphy,quite satisfied world.Usually these types aren't
old enough to face the reality of what age does to one.They also
haven't been thru the mill.Probably lead a life w/o much risk or gain
or anything to be thankfull,cautious or worrisome over.
Untested couch potato's,more like it.

FoolsWorth

If you are referencing me in this statement. Thank you. Now I know that you have no idea of what your talking about. But if you would care to show where the original post is in error my low opinion might change a little

The Christians Single Universal God Type has only existed for some two thousand years prior to that all Gods were Selective God Types. And since both the Hindu and Islamic religions rival the Christian religion in numbers and prosperity. It appears that the Christian Universal God Type Jesus is either incapable or unwilling to challenge the Hindu or Islamic God religions.

To me this negates the Christian claim that Jesus is a Universal God Type who's law, commandments and Worship is required of all people. If Jesus is incapable of or is unwilling to challenge rival GodHood Beliefs then Jesus cannot be a Universal God Type as claimed. But is only a Selective God Type as all other God or Gods. And as such Jesus's laws, commandments and worship can be ignored or rejected by those who do not follow the Jesus GodHood.

According to your reasoning, no religion can claim to be a "Universal God Type" so long as prosperous religions exist, because that would imply the Universal God is incapable of challenging other gods. Which basically amounts to there is no such thing as a "Universal God Type" religion. Which means that you view all the gods in all the religions in the world as belonging to a big Selective pool.

There, you long post in so many words. ;)

According to your reasoning, no religion can claim to be a "Universal God Type" so long as prosperous religions exist, because that would imply the Universal God is incapable of challenging other gods. Which basically amounts to there is no such thing as a "Universal God Type" religion. Which means that you view all the gods in all the religions in the world as belonging to a big Selective pool.

There, you long post in so many words. ;)

You got it. The historical evidence while not disproving that God or Gods exist. Does disprove the belief that a Universal God Type exists.
:drinktoth

From your signiture...

The Bible is Invalid. It has been proven Invalid. It is not and cannot be the Infallible Truth of God. :upyours:
The ":upyours:" portion is a dead giveaway, you apparently desire no discussion (since this can only be considered an insult). Therefore, you must be only a troll.

Yea. I must admit the :upyours. Emoticon was a bit much. Was not going through a very good time at the time. When I can figure out out to get in and delete it I will.

But the rest of it is correct. The Bible doubles for toilet paper. And all of the major Religious Beliefs are worth about as much as the contents attached to the used toilet paper

From your signiture...


The ":upyours:" portion is a dead giveaway, you apparently desire no discussion (since this can only be considered an insult). Therefore, you must be only a troll.


Hope the Big Hug is less Offensive to you. :drinktoth

But the rest of it is correct. The Bible doubles for toilet paper. And all of the major Religious Beliefs are worth about as much as the contents attached to the used toilet paper
I find this to be an absolutely ignorant thing to say. I am not a Christian, but I recognize that the Bible is worth much more than toilet paper. The Bible is full of wonderful literature, life lessons and morals, and yes, even history lessons for those who know how to pick the reality from the fantasy. Any piece of literature that has affected the world as much as the Bible has is certainly worth more than toilet paper.

Have you ever read anything from the Quran or from the Hindu Vedas, or the Tao Te Ching? They are beautiful poetry that can be appreciated at least on a purely artistic level. The fact that you cannot recognize that makes me think that you are quite ignorant and, as OP said, something of a "shit-stirrer". If you expect to be tolerated around here I suggest that you be a little more civil towards the beliefs of others.

This noob just has a vendetta against religion.. let him/her have their hate on their own...

I find this to be an absolutely ignorant thing to say. I am not a Christian, but I recognize that the Bible is worth much more than toilet paper. The Bible is full of wonderful literature, life lessons and morals, and yes, even history lessons for those who know how to pick the reality from the fantasy. Any piece of literature that has affected the world as much as the Bible has is certainly worth more than toilet paper.

Have you ever read anything from the Quran or from the Hindu Vedas, or the Tao Te Ching? They are beautiful poetry that can be appreciated at least on a purely artistic level. The fact that you cannot recognize that makes me think that you are quite ignorant and, as OP said, something of a "shit-stirrer". If you expect to be tolerated around here I suggest that you be a little more civil towards the beliefs of others.

A piece of literature that changed the world at the point of a sword, and then Guns. A resounding recomendation. I have not read the Koran, Tora nor the Hindu Vedas because none of these religious books are used to support the creation of secular law to enforce those beliefs. The bible is used for these purposes.

As far as the literature of the bible outways the rivers of blood shed because of it. You might have well said that the Science, Art and advancements that came out of Hitlers rein of tyranny far outways the evils. Sorry If that pick is of you your a beautify women but not well versed in reality.

This noob just has a vendetta against religion.. let him/her have their hate on their own...


Decka, In what way does the thread post indicate, Hate or any other emotion. It details nothing more then obvious observable facts (if anything can be fact). I can care less over the personal and individual beliefs of others. So long as those beliefs are personal and individual they are valid beliefs. The moment those beliefs are put forth as being universally appliable they become invalid though.

No hatred or disdain involved. If I made the comment that KKK literature is only good for toilet paper. Or if I said that Nazi literature is only good for toilet paper. Or Islamic Extremist Literature is only good for toilet would this offend you or the young lady? You you consider me to Hate these organizations who believe in this literature?

I see little difference between the bible and these other materials. I hold them all in the same opinion.

If you think that the Bible has only changed the world "at the point of a sword", then it's you who is not very well versed in reality. And of course the Koran and Vedas have been used to create secular laws... Think about the Hindu caste system and the fact that women in the Middle East are punished for being raped.

And I never said that the good done by the Bible "outways" (sic) the bad. I was simply talking about the good parts. I think that religion in general has done a lot of good, as well as a lot of bad. However, if you think the world would be better without religion you are quite mistaken. Millions of people have been killed and tortured for reasons quite unrelated to religion, and oftentimes religion is just the easiest excuse that the people in power can use. Religion is not really the reason behind most of those "religious injustices" - it's just the excuse. The Crusades, for example, were supposedly about religion, when in reality most historians know that economic and political reasons were certainly more important to the people behind them.

If you think that the Bible has only changed the world "at the point of a sword", then it's you who is not very well versed in reality. And of course the Koran and Vedas have been used to create secular laws... Think about the Hindu caste system and the fact that women in the Middle East are punished for being raped.

And I never said that the good done by the Bible "outways" (sic) the bad. I was simply talking about the good parts. I think that religion in general has done a lot of good, as well as a lot of bad. However, if you think the world would be better without religion you are quite mistaken. Millions of people have been killed and tortured for reasons quite unrelated to religion, and oftentimes religion is just the easiest excuse that the people in power can use. Religion is not really the reason behind most of those "religious injustices" - it's just the excuse. The Crusades, for example, were supposedly about religion, when in reality most historians know that economic and political reasons were certainly more important to the people behind them.

I do not worry about the evils committed in the name of other Gods or religions because they are not a threat to the secular government of the United States. Do you believe that the people who were killed or tortured or robbed cared whether God was only a excuse and not the actual reasons that they were being killed, tortured or robbed.

If Evil men can so easily use God to commit acts of evil against other people can you say that the God being used to justify this evil is not also guilty of the evil by allowing it to happen. As the old saying goes more people have been killed in the name of God then any other reason in history. Whether God is used falsly to justify this evil is not God just as guilty for not stopping people from falsly using his name?

we have another person judging God in human terms, and thinking we are all controlled by puppet strings.

we have another person judging God in human terms, and thinking we are all controlled by puppet strings.


Advancement of Learning {1605}

" But men must know,that in this theatre of man's life it is
reserved only for God and the angles to be lookers on. "

-- F.Bacon

Here's a doozy: "True Freedom is slavery to God"

we have another person judging God in human terms, and thinking we are all controlled by puppet strings.


Actually Slavery to a God who will kill you if you do not submit is one thing. But it is another thing to be a slave to mere people who claim to speak with their Gods Authority and will kill you if you do not submit :hitout:

Actually Decka I do not Judge God by any terms. I judge those who claim to speak in Gods name and with Gods voice when God has not only not spoken but has not given them the authority to speak in his name.

Actually Slavery to a God who will kill you if you do not submit is one thing. But it is another thing to be a slave to mere people who claim to speak with their Gods Authority and will kill you if you do not submit :hitout:

Actually Decka I do not Judge God by any terms. I judge those who claim to speak in Gods name and with Gods voice when God has not only not spoken but has not given them the authority to speak in his name.

You need to Go now.
Your Point { not points } has been duly recorded.
That is really no need to have you as a Poster.
Those Posters who Filibuster ad nauseam are basically but an eyesore.
Like a disheveled,weed infested Trailer park.
I,for one,have got yer gist.
Move on to something that requires more than rudimentary rote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiredbeyondbeli

The Christians Single Universal God Type has only existed for some two thousand years prior to that all Gods were Selective God Types. And since both the Hindu and Islamic religions rival the Christian religion in numbers and prosperity. It appears that the Christian Universal God Type Jesus is either incapable or unwilling to challenge the Hindu or Islamic God religions.

To me this negates the Christian claim that Jesus is a Universal God Type who's law, commandments and Worship is required of all people. If Jesus is incapable of or is unwilling to challenge rival GodHood Beliefs then Jesus cannot be a Universal God Type as claimed. But is only a Selective God Type as all other God or Gods. And as such Jesus's laws, commandments and worship can be ignored or rejected by those who do not follow the Jesus GodHood.

Copied from Post #14

According to your reasoning, no religion can claim to be a "Universal God Type" so long as prosperous religions exist, because that would imply the Universal God is incapable of challenging other gods. Which basically amounts to there is no such thing as a "Universal God Type" religion. Which means that you view all the gods in all the religions in the world as belonging to a big Selective pool.

There, you long post in so many words.

Not to bad only one post out of 28 posts actually dealt with the Thread Topic Post. Other then a couple of Atheist comments the rest were simply immediate attacks because I challenged the validity of a Universal God Type. And Post #14 was a clear and non hostile break down of what my Thread Topic Says. And simply because I respond to posts you say You need to Go now.
Your Point { not points } has been duly recorded.
That is really no need to have you as a Poster.
Those Posters who Filibuster ad nauseam are basically but an eyesore.
Like a disheveled,weed infested Trailer park.
I,for one,have got yer gist.
Move on to something that requires more than rudimentary rote.
Yep the advantages of a Theocratic Society. When you do not like the comments or questions you just tell them to shut up and get lost lucky for me I live in a Secular Society. Take Care and may your God bless and be with you always
:bighug:

Here's a doozy: "True Freedom is slavery to God"
Actually Slavery to a God who will kill you if you do not submit is one thing. But it is another thing to be a slave to mere people who claim to speak with their Gods Authority and will kill you if you do not submit :hitout:

Did I say I was a slave to Pat Robertson? I'm talking about God... and I never heard of a christian who went around saying "turn to God or i'll kill you"... and if there ever was one, they were probably well on their way to the asylum.

Actually Decka I do not Judge God by any terms. I judge those who claim to speak in Gods name and with Gods voice when God has not only not spoken but has not given them the authority to speak in his name.

Well nobody speaks in God's name here... I surely don't. I realize God is so beyond me. I have my beliefs, and what I think goes on, but I know that I don't know. I just keep the faith, and everything will work out itself.

I realize it's illogical, and the word "slavery" has bad connotations... but I stand by my words in my signature. I'll gladly take your criticism and be labeled things in the name of God...

Decka

Personal and Individual beliefs when applied personally and individually are valid beliefs. A Christian, Moslem, Jew, Buddist, Wiccan, Pagan who hold their beliefs as personal and individual are all holding valid beliefs. But the moment anyone attempts to apply their beliefs universally and applicable to all others then their beliefs are invalid.

No where in history is a Universal God shown to exist and as such the laws, commandments of any God cannot be applied universally. And are only applicable to those followers of that particular God. You must admit that there are a small group of christians who are actively attempting to apply their beliefs universally as being applicable to all other regardless of beliefs.

It is these people who's beliefs are invalid.

Decka

Personal and Individual beliefs when applied personally and individually are valid beliefs. A Christian, Moslem, Jew, Buddist, Wiccan, Pagan who hold their beliefs as personal and individual are all holding valid beliefs. But the moment anyone attempts to apply their beliefs universally and applicable to all others then their beliefs are invalid.

No where in history is a Universal God shown to exist and as such the laws, commandments of any God cannot be applied universally. And are only applicable to those followers of that particular God. You must admit that there are a small group of christians who are actively attempting to apply their beliefs universally as being applicable to all other regardless of beliefs.

It is these people who's beliefs are invalid.

Have you pondered the idea that all these different religions are just different versions of a relationship with the same God? Different cultures can cause much different results in how things are seen. Just a thought.

Yes, some christians are "attempting to apply their beliefs universally"... and some are doing it the correct why by giving the person a choice and respecting/loving them no matter the result.. or the incorrect way in denouncing anyone who doesn't except God's word. I think any religion has the right to spread, and Christianity is spreading RAPIDLY in Africa and China... Many people are believin'. You can call them invalid all you want, but the proof is in the pudding in my book. So many people taking the Jewish/Christian God as their father and being moved and affected by this God is quite a piece of "data".. wouldn't you say?

I'm not trying to "prove" God exists, I don't wish to. I just think a discussion on religion is redundant between the two of us. You look at everything as logical and making sense. So many things in our world are illogical and don't make sense.

Have you pondered the idea that all these different religions are just different versions of a relationship with the same God? Different cultures can cause much different results in how things are seen. Just a thought.

Not only have I pondered this belief but it is one of the foundations of my belief. There is But one God. But this one God has hundreds of Names, Images, and Persona's. That each Name, Image, Persona of God has rules, laws, commandments that apply to that particular Name, Image and Persona but does not apply out side of that belief.

Yes, some christians are "attempting to apply their beliefs universally"... and some are doing it the correct why by giving the person a choice and respecting/loving them no matter the result.. or the incorrect way in denouncing anyone who doesn't except God's word. I think any religion has the right to spread, and Christianity is spreading RAPIDLY in Africa and China... Many people are believin'. You can call them invalid all you want, but the proof is in the pudding in my book. So many people taking the Jewish/Christian God as their father and being moved and affected by this God is quite a piece of "data".. wouldn't you say?

So Long as that belief is individual and personal it is not invalid.

I'm not trying to "prove" God exists, I don't wish to. I just think a discussion on religion is redundant between the two of us. You look at everything as logical and making sense. So many things in our world are illogical and don't make sense.

That is good since God or Gods cannot be proven by mankind or by the mouth of man. Only God or Gods can prove that God or Gods exist

So many things in our world are illogical and don't make sense.Too bad you're not arguing the existence of 'Decka' -- this observation would win hands down. :)

Too bad you're not arguing the existence of 'Decka' -- this observation would win hands down. :)

....

utterly speechless as to the context of the supposed insult.. and the lack of kick it carried. Do you dispute what I said?

Hahaha... I think it was good natured, Decka.

Anyways I agree with everything you've said. You are one of the most reasonable people in the religious debates, in my opinion.

Here's how I think of it: I believe in god. This is a belief, and therefore is not rational. If it was rational, or logical, then it would be something else (a theory, a fact, ??)... But it's not, and I don't care.

Hahaha... I think it was good natured, Decka.

Anyways I agree with everything you've said. You are one of the most reasonable people in the religious debates, in my opinion.

Here's how I think of it: I believe in god. This is a belief, and therefore is not rational. If it was rational, or logical, then it would be something else (a theory, a fact, ??)... But it's not, and I don't care.


Dark Fantasy? If an individual believes in a God because they have been given personal and individual evidence in the reality of this God. Is their belief Rational, I would say so. If one believes they have been given evidence and proof that they believe is real it would seem that their belief is then Rational.

Such a belief only becomes Irrational when personal and individual beliefs personal and individual proofs or evidence is applied as proof and evidence on a general basis and not on a individual or personal basis

I think you're wrong. I have no rational "evidence" or "proof" of god. I just believe. Faith is not proof.

Here's how I think of it: I believe in god. This is a belief, and therefore is not rational. If it was rational, or logical, then it would be something else (a theory, a fact, ??)... But it's not, and I don't care.
Depends on how you define "rational". I think rational applies to many different beliefs, as long as the person used reason and not blind faith to arrive at them. Just because something is unprovable does not make it, IMO, irrational.

Oddly enough, Borg, you're the one who has called me irrational in the past for believing in god... Has your opinion changed now?

I think you're wrong. I have no rational "evidence" or "proof" of god. I just believe. Faith is not proof.

I am the opposite before I was brought into the Faith I was a Diest I believed that God existed in general terms but did not give much thought to the who, what, where, or when of God. I was given personal and individual proof and evidence to the reality of God and became a Theist by acknowleging a Name, Image, Persona of God as Our Father.

Without the individual and personal evidence or proofs. I would have remained a Diest with a general belief of God but not carring about the specifics of God.

I think Borg is working with a definition of irrational as something that's by definition undesirable.

I think Borg is working with a definition of irrational as something that's by definition undesirable.
Yes, but I don't think of it that way.

Do you dispute what I said?Yes.

You often make the argument that we can't know God's ways.

Using your own logic, just because something is illogical or doesn't make subjective sense to us doesn't mean it's illogical or doesn't make sense from the cosmological perspective. You can make the argument, for example, that every particle in the universe is bound to obey physical laws. From this standpoint, every event that occurs in the universe can be seen as googillions of particles doing what they absolutely must -- and is therefore logical.

Fortunately, for advocates of free will, there's Heisenberg.

Yes.

You often make the argument that we can't know God's ways.

Using your own logic, just because something is illogical or doesn't make subjective sense to us doesn't mean it's illogical or doesn't make sense from the cosmological perspective. You can make the argument, for example, that every particle in the universe is bound to obey physical laws. From this standpoint, every event that occurs in the universe can be seen as googillions of particles doing what they absolutely must -- and is therefore logical.

Fortunately, for advocates of free will, there's Heisenberg.

Sedan I wonder if the ways of God cannot be known by men. How can a religion claim that their religion is the one true religion of God when they also claim that the Ways of God cannot be known by man as a defence against those who question the basis and foundaton of those beleifs. These two beliefs would seem to be contradictory in nature. Also I vaguely remember the name of Heisenberg could you please clearify your reference concerning free will and Heisenberg, Thanks

Have you pondered the idea that all these different religions are just different versions of a relationship with the same God? Different cultures can cause much different results in how things are seen. Just a thought.

Yes, some christians are "attempting to apply their beliefs universally"... and some are doing it the correct why by giving the person a choice and respecting/loving them no matter the result.. or the incorrect way in denouncing anyone who doesn't except God's word. I think any religion has the right to spread, and Christianity is spreading RAPIDLY in Africa and China... Many people are believin'. You can call them invalid all you want, but the proof is in the pudding in my book. So many people taking the Jewish/Christian God as their father and being moved and affected by this God is quite a piece of "data".. wouldn't you say?

I'm not trying to "prove" God exists, I don't wish to. I just think a discussion on religion is redundant between the two of us. You look at everything as logical and making sense. So many things in our world are illogical and don't make sense.
*********************************************
Don't bother too much with him or his type.
They were obviously brought up Ignurnt,with No Religion,and then
when they do get a wiff of the seriousness grown men and cultures
place on GOD & Religion,they too far behind the 8-ball to catch up.
I think most Grade schoolers realize that GoD is a Generic term used
by many Faith's to acknowledge a Supreme {Supernatural} being.
he is merely trying to associate gods with God.
" gods " in greek mythology were based on the typical phobias
and relief associated with such.
as in
The lesser gods :

Demeter
Dionysus
Eros
Pan
Helios
Thanatos


The Olympians:
Zeus
Poseidon
Hades
Apollo
Aphrodite
Hermes
etc.

The Titans {elder gods}
Beaten back by the Olympians

**********************

Euripides

Iphigenia in Tauris {c.405 B.C.}
" If there are none [i.e.,gods]
All our toil is without meaning. "

The Cyclops {424-23 B.C.}
" I sacrifice to no god save myself --
And to my belly,greatest of deities. "

I readily acknowledge the similarity among dat guy and The Cyclops.
That is Not gOOt.

Foolsworth it is nothing more then simple observation. If there is but one God. Then this one God has established hundreds of religions using hundreds of different names, images and persona's. And yet two thousand years ago this one God denounced all of His names, images and persona's why would this one God after establishing hundreds of beliefs each with their own name, image and persona all of a sudden reject those religions names, images and persona's. And establish a single name, image and persona and not bother to inform his other religions of the change.

Could this one God expect that religions that had worshipped him for hundreds or thousands of years by another name, image and persona would willy nilly reject their religion and except a new one name, one image, and one persona religion without their God telling them to. This makes absolutely no sense. If God or Gods are actually real then the Multi Gods theory makes far more sense then the one God theory

If there had been Multi Gods and One God destroyed them to become the only God then why did the one God not establish the followers of the dead Gods as His followers. Once again it makes no sense for the One God who destroyed all other Gods to establish a Universal religion and yet not establish this one true religion among the followers of the dead Gods.

Nothing about the one universal God Theory makes any sense when compared to the realities of human history. Why would a Single Universal God not establish a Universal Religion from the beginning. Why would such a God allow hundreds or thousands of false religions, false names, false images, false persona's to come into being for hundreds or thousands of years only to create the one true religion two thousand years ago without bothering to inform all of the other followers.

FoolsWorth let's try something new. Why dont you attempt to question my posts and prove them wrong then simply closing your eyes and sticking your fingers in your ears and singing. (your wrong, I know your wrong, I know the truth and you dont, nah nah nah nah)
*********************************************
Don't bother too much with him or his type.
They were obviously brought up Ignurnt,with No Religion,and then
when they do get a wiff of the seriousness grown men and cultures
place on GOD & Religion,they too far behind the 8-ball to catch up.
I think most Grade schoolers realize that GoD is a Generic term used
by many Faith's to acknowledge a Supreme {Supernatural} being.
he is merely trying to associate gods with God.
" gods " in greek mythology were based on the typical phobias
and relief associated with such.
as in
The lesser gods :

Demeter
Dionysus
Eros
Pan
Helios
Thanatos


The Olympians:
Zeus
Poseidon
Hades
Apollo
Aphrodite
Hermes
etc.

The Titans {elder gods}
Beaten back by the Olympians

**********************

Euripides

Iphigenia in Tauris {c.405 B.C.}
" If there are none [i.e.,gods]
All out toil is withjout meaning. "

The Cyclops {424-23 B.C.}
" I sacrifice to no god save myself --
And to my belly,greatest of deities. "

I readily acknowledge the similarity among dat guy and The Cyclops.
That is Not gOOt.

Tired, trying to get anything sensible out of Foolsworth will only make you look like an idiot... Just a tip... Although he has been slightly easier to understand lately.

Foolsworth it is nothing more then simple observation. If there is but one God. Then this one God has established hundreds of religions using hundreds of different names, images and persona's. And yet two thousand years ago this one God denounced all of His names, images and persona's why would this one God after establishing hundreds of beliefs each with their own name, image and persona all of a sudden reject those religions names, images and persona's. And establish a single name, image and persona and not bother to inform his other religions of the change.

Could this one God expect that religions that had worshipped him for hundreds or thousands of years by another name, image and persona would willy nilly reject their religion and except a new one name, one image, and one persona religion without their God telling them to. This makes absolutely no sense. If God or Gods are actually real then the Multi Gods theory makes far more sense then the one God theory

If there had been Multi Gods and One God destroyed them to become the only God then why did the one God not establish the followers of the dead Gods followers as His followers. Once again it makes no sense for the One God who destroyed all other Gods to establish a Universal religion and yet not establish this one true religion among the followers of the dead Gods.

Nothing about the one universal God Theory makes any sense when compared to the realities of human history. Why would a Single Universal God not establish a Universal Religion from the beginning. Why would such a God allow hundreds or thousands of false religions, false names, false images, false persona's to come into being for hundreds or thousands of years only to create the one true religion two thousand years ago without bothering to inform all of the other followers.

FoolsWorth let's try something new. Why dont you attempt to question my posts and prove them wrong then simply closing your eyes and sticking your fingers in your ears and singing. (your wrong, I know your wrong, I know the truth and you dont, nah nah nah nah)

Just like there is NO,one quantifiable School Of Atheists,so to with
God.The word " God " implies a Supreme & Supernatural being.
There is NO One universal Culture or Language.
Nor Custom,dress or food source.
You silly Internet bumblers,always want Proof.There has to be
instant Proof,or you won't believe.
Yer like little whiney pre-school brats.
You won't eat yer Mapo,unless you have some security blanket
around like a doll or teddy bear.

FoolsWorthy

How can I ask for proof of a single universal God. When it is impossible for a single universal God to exist.

[QUOTE=tiredbeyondbeli] Foolsworth it is nothing more then simple observation. If there is but one God. Then this one God has established hundreds of religions using hundreds of different names, images and persona's. And yet two thousand years ago this one God denounced all of His names, images and persona's why would this one God after establishing hundreds of beliefs each with their own name, image and persona all of a sudden reject those religions names, images and persona's. And establish a single name, image and persona and not bother to inform his other religions of the change.
*******************************************8

Um,Ever heard the word :
[COLOR="DarkOrange"]Faith
It's actually the root of all Religious Belief.
Also God endowed Man with Free Will.
It's Man's Free Will which will determine his afterlife.
God doesn't mettle too much into what he Created,because
that apparently defies his reason for Creation.
I believe God wants Man to unravel and cope with Life's
problems,without relying on exclusive help from above.
Could be the reason why we exist.To learn,help ourself and others,
thru the many trials & tribulations.Demonstrate Virtue and be
thankfull for little belssings.

FoolsWorth

What does Faith have to do with anything. If you are correct and There is Only One True God. Only one supreme being. Then for the last 100,000 years this supeme being has been creating False Religions, With False Names, Images and Persona's of the one supreme being. That this one supreme being has been seeding chaos. And that this one supreme being two thousand years ago decided to create the one true religion, the one true name, the one true image, the one true persona.

And has expected that the followers of the False Religions, the believers of the False Names, Images and Persona's who believed they were following true Gods to accept the new and improved religion, name, image and persona that is actually the one true religion name, image and persona of the one true God. Did not the Followers of the False Religions created by the one true God have Faith that they were being guided by God.

Faith is meaningless in the contex that you are using it in

Religions are created by man, not by god.

Religions are created by man, not by god.


Correct amoongo my dear dark

Religions are created by man, not by god.

Ok,then Who created Man.?
Obviously you can't NOW say religion created Man.
See how you've boxed yerself in.
Obviously Man,exists.
Therefore he had to be created.
Man just didn't appear out of thin air.
And you also can't logically say Man,created man.
For who would be the First Man created.

Ok,then Who created Man.?
Obviously you can't NOW say religion created Man.
See how you've boxed yerself in.
Obviously Man,exists.
Therefore he had to be created.
Man just didn't appear out of thin air.
And you also can't logically say Man,created man.
For who would be the First Man created.
Fool - I believe that god created man. :)

EDIT: I've been informed by Borg that I can't say that I believe god made us, even though I do, because that "implies" that I don't believe in evolution. So here it is: I think God created the universe and everything in it and that he (neutral he, not necessarily male) created the universe with a plan in mind for the world and for humans specifically.

FoolsWorthy

Actually the Human DNA link has been traced back to a Chimpanzy species that branched off and evolved into mankind. Now if you actually want to know how that happened well it went something like this. Some male and female chimpanzies were outside on a bright sunny day collecting food when a very strong Solar Flare happened on the surface of the sun. The radiation wave from the solar flare hit the earth with enough force to zap their DNA and gave it a kick start. Or God reached his holy finger down and touched the chimpansize and changed their DNA. Either way that is how we came about

Next thing you know mankind now walks the earth. Dark I thought you were an Atheist?

when a very strong explosion happened on the surface of the sun. The radiation wave from the solar explosion heat the earth with enough force to zap their DNA and gave it a kick start.

and a radioactive spider bit peter parker making him the amazing spiderman....

Tired is really making me tired by splitting these hairs...

Thanks for the complement Dark, I have matured over the years, and can look on the outside of a religious argument and consider both sides. That is something I was incapable of in high school.

As for tired, I don't quite follow that the fact that there are many religions means that somehow a monotheistic God cannot exist. Humans are sinful, and free will is something I believe in. Therefore, even IF a false religion were made, like scientology (hey, it COULD be right, but I just like to rip on Tom Cruise), God doesn't control us. He'd allow it to happen, and see how we reacted to the situation. Of course he already knows all of the potential outcomes, but does he make us do the right or wrong thing? I think not.

Dark I thought you were an Atheist?
No. I'm a theist.

and a radioactive spider bit peter parker making him the amazing spiderman....

Liquid Fork the DNA link is the DNA link. We came from chimpanzes whether we did it naturally or by divine will it happened.

Dark Ok, I thought in an earlier post you said you were an Atheist my mistake.

I found my mistake you said (I am not a Christian) I simply assumed you were an Atheist my apologies.

Dark Ok, I thought in an earlier post you said you were an Atheist my mistake.

hey i cant dispute that with any facts... it is what it seems isnt it..... i just always have had a hard time swallowing the exploding sun theory..

hey i cant dispute that with any facts... it is what it seems isnt it..... i just always have had a hard time swallowing the exploding sun theory..
Results 1 - 5 of 5 for "exploding sun theory". (0.19 seconds)

:confused:

hey i cant dispute that with any facts... it is what it seems isnt it..... i just always have had a hard time swallowing the exploding sun theory..


I am bad :confused: I just did the Radiation from the sun thiing off the top of my head. FoolsWorth did not allow for anything other then creation so I gave him a creation theory I went back and edited the Solar Explosion with Solar Flare. Hope this is better

and a radioactive spider bit peter parker making him the amazing spiderman....
where did Spider Pig come from?

http://tn3-1.deviantart.com/fs18/300W/f/2007/220/5/3/Spider_Pig___Color_by_Ionahipri.png

Results 1 - 5 of 5 for "exploding sun theory". (0.19 seconds)

:confused:


Some male and female chimpanzies were outside on a bright sunny day collecting food when a very strong explosion happened on the surface of the sun. The radiation wave from the solar explosion hit the earth with enough force to zap their DNA and gave it a kick start.

thats what i meant..

thats what i meant..
Alright, but why are you listening to this guy? Anyone using the term "zap" when explaining scientific phenomena is obviously not someone to listen to.

Firstly, Tired stated that humans evolved from chimpanzees, which is a common misconception. Humans and chimps have a common ancestor; neither is an ancestor of the other. Secondly, he (admittedly) pulled a bit about some sort of "sun explosion" out of his ass. Solar energy can cause mutations, yes, but it needn't come from the sun. Mutations happen all the time, in fact, but our cells have functions that usually repair the DNA. Tired has the general overview of how evolution works mostly right, but he's fuzzy on the details. The short answer is, we don't know exactly why a certain species of ape evolved intelligence and ultimately into good ol' Homo sapiens; but we do know, conclusively, that they did.

thats what i meant..

I went back and edited the post and replaced Solar Explosion with Solar Flare which is what I should have used the first time thanks for pointing it out to me :drinktoth

I'll end my exchanges with Tired by saying this:

1. You can label me irrational all you want for believing in God. I believe, and that's not going to change. Plus, it has no bearing on you.

2. I don't think any human being can have any sort of perspective of what God is thinking. It's okay to theorize, but to try to claim a God as rational or irrational is like the waterboy telling the head coach what play to run. Humility is something I value highly, and while you don't have to embrace it like I do, I suggest that you at least consider applying a bit into your life.

I went back and edited the post and replaced Solar Explosion with Solar Flare which is what I should have used the first time thanks for pointing it out to me :drinktoth


i wasnt trying to call you out or anything....It just seemed a little too comic bookish for me to believe.

The short answer is, we don't know exactly why a certain species of ape evolved intelligence and ultimately into good ol' Homo sapiens; but we do know, conclusively, that they did.
i think it has more to do with having our thumbs on out hands instead of our feet-it's just more useful that way. the better able you are to run, the more likely you are to do it:thumbs:

I'll end my exchanges with Tired by saying this:

1. You can label me irrational all you want for believing in God. I believe, and that's not going to change. Plus, it has no bearing on you.

Decka I am a Theist and do believe in a God. Believing in God or a God is not irrational. What is irrational is someone who believes that their name, image, and persona of God. Is the only name, image and persona of God. And that all are subject to this belief. This is irrational.

2. I don't think any human being can have any sort of perspective of what God is thinking. It's okay to theorize, but to try to claim a God as rational or irrational is like the waterboy telling the head coach what play to run. Humility is something I value highly, and while you don't have to embrace it like I do, I suggest that you at least consider applying a bit into your life.

I do not believe that any man can have any insight into who or what God or Gods are. I do not believe that anyone can speak with Gods voice nor with Gods authority. That is why I consider any belief that claims to know for a fact that there is only one God, with one Voice, with one religion. And that this God has dominion over all is irrational. To believe this you must believe that you know the very thoughts of God.

Take Care if we should not talk again may your God bless and be with you always

I'll end my exchanges with Tired by saying this:

1. You can label me irrational all you want for believing in God. I believe, and that's not going to change. Plus, it has no bearing on you.

2. I don't think any human being can have any sort of perspective of what God is thinking. It's okay to theorize, but to try to claim a God as rational or irrational is like the waterboy telling the head coach what play to run. Humility is something I value highly, and while you don't have to embrace it like I do, I suggest that you at least consider applying a bit into your life.

Wrote this on another board and thought it would apply here

In another board I had a Christian tell me that I was irrational for believing to know the mind of God. To Judge God by my common sense and intelligence. That no man can know the thoughts of God. But this is very much like calling the kettle black.

When I talk about God/Gods/Goddess's it is because I do not know the specifics of What God Is. I know that there is a God that I follow. Is He the only God. I dont know. Is He all Powerfull, All Knowing, Eternal. I do not know. The God that I follow has not invited up to heaven to discuss the realities of the Universe Lately.

But Christians claim to know the very thoughts of God. To know for a fact that there is but one God. When Human History is filled with hundreds if not thousands of God/Gods/Goddess's. To know the only true Name, Image and Persona of God. To know for a fact that God is exactly as they claim He is. And that no other God Belief, no other Name, Image, Persona of God is valid. That only their God is valid.

No where in the History of Mankind is there any indication of a Single Universal God. Even today there is no indication that A Single Universal God exists let alone ever existed. Human History indicates that if Gods are real then there are a multitude of Gods each with his/her own Name, Image and Persona's. His/Her own followers. To me this is irrational, to say that there is only One Universal God, with one Name, Image and Persona even though all evidence says that a Universal God does not exist. And that this One Universal God lays claim to everyone.

To believe this is to believe that you can know the very mind of God. To claim this, one must claim to know every aspect of God. To claim this means that you must know the very secrets of God. And this is irrational. How can Christians claim that no man may know the thoughts of God when their very religious beliefs claim to know all things about God. Faith in a God is one thing. Blind Faith even when there is overwhelming evidence against it is something else.

Take Care and May your God bless and Be With You Always.

You can know what God wants you to know if in fact God wishes to have a personal relationship with his followers.

In that sense, you can be the voice of God. Relaying the message.

As a person, just a mere mortal, you wouldn't have a chance in understanding a God on your own with out the help of the God telling you.

A God can "want" if it wants to want.

You can know what God wants you to know if in fact God wishes to have a personal relationship with his followers.

In that sense, you can be the voice of God. Relaying the message.

As a person, just a mere mortal, you wouldn't have a chance in understanding a God on your own with out the help of the God telling you.

A God can "want" if it wants to want.


I have no problems that God or Gods can give whatever knowledge or evidene or beliefs that the God or Gods wish the person to know. But when a thousand different people of a thousand different religions all claim that their God has given them the things they need to believe and those things are contradictiory to the kowledge given to the other 999 people.

Then it must be assumed that all are correct or all are false. If there is no other evidence other then the information given to an individual and all individual beliefs are different there is a catch 22 situation I tend to believe that all are right because the information is personal and as such should only be valid individually

I have no problems that God or Gods can give whatever knowledge or evidene or beliefs that the God or Gods wish the person to know. But when a thousand different people of a thousand different religions all claim that their God has given them the things they need to believe and those things are contradictiory to the kowledge given to the other 999 people.

Then it must be assumed that all are correct or all are false. If there is no other evidence other then the information given to an individual and all individual beliefs are different there is a catch 22 situation I tend to believe that all are right because the information is personal and as such should only be valid individually

I don't know, it's a good point you bring up and it's a point that is brought up a lot.
I say, if there is only one true God then there is only one true religion.
The other 999 people are doing something contrary to what the one true God wants them to be doing.
A personal feeling can often be mistaken for that of something brought on by a higher power. I have to admit that.
But if God really wants someone to know it's him, that person is going to know beyond a shadow of a doubt. Especially if God is emotional.

That wouldn't mean that all have to be correct or wrong. That just means that we're all human and incapable of making the call.
Maybe that's the way God wants it. So when we do meet God, we know without a doubt it is him.

If you think that the Bible has only changed the world "at the point of a sword", then it's you who is not very well versed in reality.

a)He did not use the word *only*.

b) He said --""A piece of literature that changed the world at the point of a sword, and then Guns.""

I'm assuming that you ARE aware that the God of the Christians ordered that all the inhabitants of entire cities to be killed; every man, every woman, every child, every suckling infant, every horse, every cow, every sheep, every living thing that breathed air -- hacked to death with swords because they failed to worship him in the way that this "loving" god wanted.............are you aware of that simple fact?

I would very much call that --""at the point of a sword"".

FT, I'm pretty sure that Tired was referring to the behavior of Christians in the name of god, not the behavior of God in the Bible...

And FT, I am not a Christian. I also see the honestly ridiculous contradictions within the Bible and Christianity... So I'm really not sure what you're trying to convince me of.

The point is that the violence, illogical crap, and contradictions in the Bible make me unable to believe that it is the word of God and to worship Jesus/the Christian god. However, they do not make me unable to appreciate the Bible as a work of literature that has had a profound effect on the world. There is a middle ground between believing that the Bible is divine and infallible and believing that it's not worth the paper it's written on.

The point is that the violence, illogical crap, and contradictions in the Bible make me unable to believe that it is the word of God and to worship Jesus/the Christian god. However, they do not make me unable to appreciate the Bible as a work of literature that has had a profound effect on the world.

Ok.

It seems then that the fact that the Bible --as you and I would agree--contains some (to put it mildly) *illogical crap and contradictions* leads you to draw a far different conclusion about its veracity or its "worth" than it leads me to draw.

If I know that a sizeable portion of a book (especially a book written by ignorant desert tribesmen recounting supposed events, many of said events being purportedly supernatural, that were claimed to have happened thousands of years ago) has already been proven beyond doubt to be false and/or contradictory, then I am little inclined to place much veracity in the rest of it.

FT - my point has nothing to do with whether or not it's true. You wouldn't say that War and Peace has no worth because it's not true.

FT, I'm pretty sure that Tired was referring to the behavior of Christians in the name of god, not the behavior of God in the Bible...

And FT, I am not a Christian. I also see the honestly ridiculous contradictions within the Bible and Christianity... So I'm really not sure what you're trying to convince me of.

The point is that the violence, illogical crap, and contradictions in the Bible make me unable to believe that it is the word of God and to worship Jesus/the Christian god. However, they do not make me unable to appreciate the Bible as a work of literature that has had a profound effect on the world. There is a middle ground between believing that the Bible is divine and infallible and believing that it's not worth the paper it's written on. What profound effect would you say the bible(as a work of literature) has had on the world?

FT - my point has nothing to do with whether or not it's true. You wouldn't say that War and Peace has no worth because it's not true.


Funny you say that, I made it all the way through the Bible, a couple times. Never made it through War and Peace, haha. One of these days I'll finish it.

Anyways, point being is that the Bible is the most important book ever written, and Jesus Christ the most important person ever to exist, or not exist, depending on who you are. That's probably why I have read it multiple times, not because I believe it, but because it is worth the time and effort to study and know in order to further your understanding of it, and it's profound effect on so many people. To me it's just a book though, a work of fiction, it's just simply the most important work of fiction ever written.

But yeah, this post is directed at FT, just used DF's quote for effect.

What profound effect would you say the bible(as a work of literature) has had on the world?
I think the effects of the Bible should be pretty obvious... Think about what the world would be like without Christianity. Pretty different, right? There's your effect.

Also, the effects that the Bible has had on modern literature are undeniable. Just wanted to add that... The stories and prose in the Bible are full of exceptional literary value...

I think the effects of the Bible should be pretty obvious... Think about what the world would be like without Christianity. Pretty different, right? There's your effect. Well no I get that the bible has had an effect on the world but what is it about the bible's profound effect on the world that you appreciate so much?

Well no I get that the bible has had an effect on the world but what is it about the bible's profound effect on the world that you appreciate so much?
I have to give it to DK, she is definitely not short sighted.

Also, the effects that the Bible has had on modern literature are undeniable. Just wanted to add that... The stories and prose in the Bible are full of exceptional literary value...Frankly, many of the stories in the bible are really not well written! What stories in the bible show exceptional literary value to you?

TBB,

While you seem to think you are well versed in religion your ignorance of the topic becomes more and more apparant with each post.

You know little about religion in general and even less about Christianity.

The fact that no God is universally worshiped does not mean there is no universal God, only that not all worship him.

Christianity is a proselytizing religion, obeying the words of The Bible to, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

Notice the words command Christians to teach all nations, not to convert them by the sword or the gun.

OldPhart has you pegged correctly as a shit stirrer. Where he fell short was in not describing you as a shit stirrer with very little knowledge of the topic he was trying to stir up.

FT, I'm pretty sure that Tired was referring to the behavior of Christians in the name of god, not the behavior of God in the Bible...
And FT, I am not a Christian. I also see the honestly ridiculous contradictions within the Bible and Christianity... So I'm really not sure what you're trying to convince me of.

The point is that the violence, illogical crap, and contradictions in the Bible make me unable to believe that it is the word of God and to worship Jesus/the Christian god. However, they do not make me unable to appreciate the Bible as a work of literature that has had a profound effect on the world. There is a middle ground between believing that the Bible is divine and infallible and believing that it's not worth the paper it's written on.

Dark Fantasy, I have often referred to the Bible as a Cosmic Personality Test. If the Bible was written by God or with Gods influence it was not to impart any special knowledge or information. It was intended as a Personality Test simular to the tests given for employment. The Bible (all holy books) contain good and bad teachings. Good information to live by and Bad information to live by.

The verses that people quote from the Holy Book gives an indication of the persons personality. An Evil person will quote the verses that allow and support the committing of Negative Actions against other people. A Good Person will quote the verses that allow or support the committing of positive acts upon other people.

A Good person will quote verses like, (Love thy Neighbor)(Feed the hungry)(help those in Need)(Judge Not). An evil person will quote verses like (Thou shall not suffer a witch to live)(Homosexuality is an abomination)(A harlot will be stoned to death) ect. The Holy Books are not intended to impart Divine Knowledge but to simply show the difference between people who are good and who are evil.

This explains why the Holy Books are contradictory in nature. Why if God(s) wrote or guided the writtings of Holy Books and is perfect that the Holy Books themselves do not show this perfection. It is because God did not want them to be perfect He simply wanted a Cosmic Personality Test.

As for separating the Evils committed by the Christian Religion (Moslem and Jewish as well) from the God they worship it is impossible. The Evil committed by extremists of all religions use the words or the interpretations of the words of their Holy Books to justify the acts as being their Gods will. If the Holy Book allows Evil to be done then the Holy Book is Evil.

If the Bible is determined to be literature the Fundamentalists will (all ready are) attempt to bring the bible into public schools under the guise of literature. This violates the seperation of church and state. By claiming that the Bible is literature and not allowing for the Tora, Koran, and God only knows how many other Holy Books as being literature the Government is endorsing the belief that the Christian Holy Book is superior to all other Holy Books.

Any Course which studies the Bible as Literature must also study all other Holy Books as literature. If this is done and the Teacher is impartial I have little problems with it. But a school in southern CA which established such a course employed the Wife of a Baptist minister to teach it. and the course was heavily slanted towards Christianity. I find it difficult to believe that such a course in public schools can be guarenteed 100% impartial.

TBB,

While you seem to think you are well versed in religion your ignorance of the topic becomes more and more apparant with each post.

You know little about religion in general and even less about Christianity.

The fact that no God is universally worshiped does not mean there is no universal God, only that not all worship him.

Christianity is a proselytizing religion, obeying the words of The Bible to, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

Notice the words command Christians to teach all nations, not to convert them by the sword or the gun.

OldPhart has you pegged correctly as a shit stirrer. Where he fell short was in not describing you as a shit stirrer with very little knowledge of the topic he was trying to stir up.

Frogger, If a six legged Horse lives in South America but there is absolutely no evidence to show that it exists. Does the existance of this six legged horse mean anything, No. This six legged horse might as well not exist if there is no evidence that it exists. God or Gods whether they exist or not is unimportant if no evidence of their existance is given.

If there is only One Universal God, if no other Gods have ever existed human history would show this. The only explaination for the tremendous diversity of religious beliefs in human history, if there is One Universal God is that this One Universal God does not care about being worshipped and as such has not established a Universal Belief.

Or the One Universal God has established all Religions and all Beleifs in which case all beliefs are valid. And all forms of worship are valid. No one belief being superior or inferior to the other since all beliefs come from the One Universal God.

As for my beliefs I am a Theist, I was brought into my Faith by my God and have been guided in my beliefs by this God. I started as a Christian until my God guided me away from it. I know the bible have read it and wrote a book showing the contradictions and inconsistancies that are contained in it. My low opinion of the bible comes from reading and understanding the bible. The bible has no relationship to the God that I believe in.

Also, the effects that the Bible has had on modern literature are undeniable. Just wanted to add that... The stories and prose in the Bible are full of exceptional literary value...
Have you ever actually read the Bible? It's not even good fiction. The characters are one-dimensional and the stories unimaginative.

Have you ever actually read the Bible? It's not even good fiction. The characters are one-dimensional and the stories unimaginative.
Yes I have. I happen to think a lot of it is very good. The Psalms are especially beautiful... The secret to getting a lot of out the Bible in a literary sense is to think about several different planes of meaning, not always including the literal plane.

Afinertouch: My favorite Biblical story is the story of Esther and the origin of Purim. It's quite the feminist story, and full of complex symbolic meanings.

Tired - That's a very interesting theory you have about holy books as personality tests. I like it, although I don't claim to know whether or not the Bible was divinely inspired... Regardless, the Bible contains many good life lessons, as well as many misguided ones, and many of them require profound analysis to understand.

About studying the Bible: I have taken two classes about religion - one an introduction to world religions, with many scriptural readings, and one a Bible as Literature class. We studied different literary genres (poetry, fable, parable, etc.) and themes in the Bible and it was very interesting. Of course in the class that was about multiple religions we couldn't get into as much detail, which is why I support colleges offering classes about religion in general as well as classes about each different religion separately. We should study religion for the same reason we study things like literature or art or pop culture - religions affect the world and its people and are therefore important from an anthropological, sociological, psychological, and historical standpoint.

I have read it multiple times, not because I believe it, but because it is worth the time and effort to study and know in order to further your understanding of it, and it's profound effect on so many people. To me it's just a book though, a work of fiction, it's just simply the most important work of fiction ever written. ....But yeah, this post is directed at FT....

It is probably the most 'important' book --in one sense-- of any kind that was ever written.

I would certainly agree with you that ""it's the most important work of fiction ever written"".....and that it has had a very profound effect on a great number of the earth's inhabitants.

It has caused far more suffering, more hatred, more strife, more killing and more mental imbalance than any other work of fiction ever written.

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"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth".
--------- Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President

It has caused far more suffering, more hatred, more strife, more killing and more mental imbalance than any other work of fiction ever written.


Thats true FT. No one can argue it, I think people are also saying its helped a bit as well, quite possibly as much as its hurt.

Out of all the short conversations you and I have had I can honestly say you're an intelligent human being. Thats something I have to respect.

As such you have had to ask yourself at least once what it would take to make the world a better place. I have read more then a few of your post where you have shown compassion. If not a lover of religion I'd assume you're at least a lover of peace.

I'm not saying that with religion we have done better, what I am asking you to do is to look at the core of corruption that envelopes the world and makes it what it is. The source surely isn't religion. It's other people.

It's what we do to each other that turns people into what they are.

I understand that you have your reasons for not liking religion.
Thats the human in you responding to life in a way that you can. Thats all any of us can do.
We all react to life in a way that we can as people because thats all any of us can do.
It doesn't matter what you call yourself, you're still going to act according to who you are.

As someone who is intelligent and compassionate, why haven't you been wondering about the good that is done in the name of religion and not just simply focusing on the bad?

Thats true FT. No one can argue it, I think people are also saying its helped a bit as well, quite possibly as much as its hurt.

I think it has 'helped' in one regard. A vast segment of humankind cannot live, cannot get through the day, cannot keep from going mad if they had the awareness that when they die, they will exist no more. It's over. Done.

Hence, the illusory prospect of immortality, as well as the prospect of life in an unending paradise after death, helps many millions of people to get through life.

In fact, it is one of the primary reasons --if not the reason-- that religion/gods were invented by mankind.

Out of all the short conversations you and I have had I can honestly say you're an intelligent human being. Thats something I have to respect.

As such you have had to ask yourself at least once what it would take to make the world a better place. I have read more then a few of your post where you have shown compassion. If not a lover of religion I'd assume you're at least a lover of peace.

I'm not saying that with religion we have done better, what I am asking you to do is to look at the core of corruption that envelopes the world and makes it what it is. The source surely isn't religion. It's other people.

Ok. I can accept that Inviolable.

My problem with religion is the mindset that it engenders in the masses; the tribalist mindset that anyone not "of the tribe", any outsider, anyone who is "different" is somehow "evil" and "sinful" and deserving of the scorn of whatever god the religionist happens to worship.

It is especially true with a paternalistic, authoritarian religion like Christianity.

Christianity is dictatorial. If you don’t comply, if you do not thoroughly obey and properly pay homage to its agenda, Christianity views you in such a way that you must suffer punishment for your supposed "sins", and righteously and imperiously threatens the uncompliant individual or the non-believer with "eternal damnation".

And when an entire nation of people, in a nation that is the most powerful on earth, is brainwashed from birth into just such a mindset, it becomes the source of much of the suffering and violence in the world that one nation can visit upon other nations.


As someone who is intelligent and compassionate, why haven't you been wondering about the good that is done in the name of religion and not just simply focusing on the bad?

Wonder about it??

I am fully cognizant of the immense good that is done and has been done throughout the ages in the name of religion. Religion is often the motive force that causes people to feed the hungry, tend to the sick and shelter the homeless.....and I recognize it for that and am appreciative of all the good --in the physical sense and in improving people's living conditions-- that has been done because of it.

But then, I think it is possible for the species homo sapien to treat people in those ways entirely independent of any "religious" motivations or beliefs.

I find it sad that humankind has evolved in such a way that it takes some nonsensical myth of "eternal life" as a reward to cause the mass of humanity to *treat others as they would have others treat themselves* instead of finding their way to such actions entirely of their own volition.....as simply one human being showing compassion to another.

(terrific post on your part by the way)

Wonder about it??

I find it sad that humankind has evolved in such a way that it takes some nonsensical myth of "eternal life" as a reward to cause the mass of humanity to *treat others as they would have others treat themselves* instead of finding their way to such actions entirely of their own volition.....as simply one human being showing compassion to another.

(terrific post on your part by the way)

Thank you for the compliment.

I agree that it is sad, but it's a design of man. People have seen that we need something other then each other so they have generated a belief to fill in the empty spaces. If it had not been religion it would be something else we look to to fix the world.

The fact that the belief was generated to begin with is proof enough that we understood or rationalized that we couldn't rely on other people.

If the idea wasn't something that people found hope in, then it wouldn't be so popular. Christianity wouldn't have generated so much attention over the past 2 thousand years.

People may be worried about death and pacing the floor thinking about what the after life holds for them, but their motivated to do what they do because they have no hope in mankind.
Once they find hope, the thoughts that generated that hope is the compelling factor to what they do next.

Save the world or go on a killing spree.

While the bible may have something to do with motivating people, it isnt the source of the persons decisions.
Their own expectations in how that information should be passed along is the source. It's not in what the bible says, it's in how they see it and how they think other people will react to it.

The flaw isn't in the words themselves, its in the person reading them.
If you see a murdering tyrant that loves the world, then you're going to act like a murdering tyrant bent on saving the world.
But if you see compassion then you'll donate your life to compassion.

But if you're caught somewhere inbetween and the tyrant in you scares the compassionate person in you to much.
You'll regret ever having hope to begin with and wonder why mankind can't simply rely on itself.

So the reason people are doing good in the name of religion to begin with are eluding. If those reasons could be remembered and taught, the world might be the kind of place we all want to live in.

Inviolable

I agree with Free Thinker it is an excelent post. One thing I notice is that when people talk of the good done by religion (which even I admit to) they are generally refering to the Christian religion. But Islam and Buddism and many other religions have the same beliefs. And also believe in feeding the hungry, and helping those in need and doing good to others. If fact these beliefs tend to be universal for most religions.

But even if God or Gods exist I see no indications or evidence to say that the God or Gods have actually established Religions or Religious beliefs. Is it not possible that Religious Beliefs stand alone from the God or Gods. Is it actually necessary for a God or Gods to establish a religion. Could not have God or Gods made some people aware that they exist and yet had no intent to be worshipped.

That those people who came to believe that God or Gods are real simply created their own religions to put words to their beliefs and yet the religion stands apart from the God or Gods and is not sanctioned by Him/They. Religion could simply be Peoples attempt to organize and catagorize a subject for which nothing is known. Like someone who glimpses a Lion in the middle of the desert for a few moments then writes a book detailing everythings about the lion, how it lives, what it eat's while only knowing for sure that it exists.

Inviolable

I agree with Free Thinker it is an excelent post. One thing I notice is that when people talk of the good done by religion (which even I admit to) they are generally refering to the Christian religion. But Islam and Buddism and many other religions have the same beliefs. And also believe in feeding the hungry, and helping those in need and doing good to others. If fact these beliefs tend to be universal for most religions.
Thank you.
Thats what I am trying to point out, in respect to the different kinds of religion all doing good. It shows that we as people understand that we need something other then each other to rely on.

But even if God or Gods exist I see no indications or evidence to say that the God or Gods have actually established Religions or Religious beliefs. Is it not possible that Religious Beliefs stand alone from the God or Gods. Is it actually necessary for a God or Gods to establish a religion. Could not have God or Gods made some people aware that they exist and yet had no intent to be worshipped.
I dont think there could be evidence. However, if a God created people to be dependent on him then he would need to establish some kind of rules or laws.
Which would be the only course I could see an emotional God taking.
If God is emotional, then it stands to reason that that God will want to be loved. It also stands to reason that an emotional God would want people to choose to love him, adding more value to the love given to God. Which would make the love people give to God priceless, so to speak.

Like someone who glimpses a Lion in the middle of the desert for a few moments then writes a book detailing everythings about the lion, how it lives, what it eat's while only knowing for sure that it exists.
Isn't that what Darwin did about evolution?
You must first catch peoples attention before anything is gained or learned.

Inviolable you said:

However, if a God created people to be dependent on him then he would need to establish some kind of rules or laws. Which would be the only course I could see an emotional God taking.

That is the point I am trying to make. If God or Gods are real, did He/They actually create human life. And if He/They did create human life was it for the purpose of having worshippers. I agree with you that if a God created humans to be worshippers, then that God would establish the conditions, laws and commandments that would define the conditions of worship.

And yet there is no universal conditions for worshipping. While hundreds of religions may exist that have laws and commandments that they believe are God given there is no universal concensus as to what those laws and commandments are. These conditions are even inconsistant within religions. Many Christian sects differ in what they believe Gods laws and commandments are as Islam does as well.

Inviolable you said:

However, if a God created people to be dependent on him then he would need to establish some kind of rules or laws. Which would be the only course I could see an emotional God taking.

That is the point I am trying to make. If God or Gods are real, did He/They actually create human life. And if He/They did create human life was it for the purpose of having worshippers. I agree with you that if a God created humans to be worshippers, then that God would establish the conditions, laws and commandments that would define the conditions of worship.

And yet there is no universal conditions for worshipping. While hundreds of religions may exist that have laws and commandments that they believe are God given there is no universal concensus as to what those laws and commandments are. These conditions are even inconsistant within religions. Many Christian sects differ in what they believe Gods laws and commandments are as Islam does as well.

Yeah.
There is no real answer that would bear anything remotely giving credence to what religion God would want you to follow.
You're asking about religion and looking for evidence. Thats not going to happen unless you take a leap of faith.
Every theory is based on some kind of evidence, however feelings such as love and hate have no evidence to scientifically back them up. Yet we know they exist.
I find it odd, or rather very interesting that religion is based almost entirely on emotions and yet we have no way to see the evidence in emotion.
As if it was meant to be that way so we can continue to work on faith.

We can look through space back to the beginning of time but we cant measure the effects of love.