Yeah.
There is no real answer that would bear anything remotely giving credence to what religion God would want you to follow. You're asking about religion and looking for evidence. Thats not going to happen unless you take a leap of faith.

Every theory is based on some kind of evidence, however feelings such as love and hate have no evidence to scientifically back them up. Yet we know they exist. I find it odd, or rather very interesting that religion is based almost entirely on emotions and yet we have no way to see the evidence in emotion.

As if it was meant to be that way so we can continue to work on faith.
We can look through space back to the beginning of time but we cant measure the effects of love.

Inviolable

You miss understand me. I am a Theist, I believe in a God, I personally and my family going back atleast three generations have recieved more then enough evidence to know that a God exists. My belief is not based on mere Faith that a God is real, I have been given overwhelming personal and individual evidence that the God that I believe in is real.

The point that I try to make is that my belief is personal and individual. My beliefs, the evidence and proofs that I have been given to prove to me that a God is real. Though I know beyond any doubt that the God I believe in is real I cannot say that He is the only God. I can not say that the knowledge or information He has given me is valid beyond myself. I know that the God I believe in is real.

But I do not talk face to face with my God, I do not know the inner secrets of His mind, I cannot say anything other then to me personally and individually he is real and exists. But there are Theists out there that claim to know everything about God except maybe his eye color. They know beyond a doubt that there is but one living God. They know beyond a doubt that they are the only true followers of God.

Even though modern man has been around for maybe 150,000 years they know for a fact that the only truly valid covenant made between God and mankind was created some two thousand years ago. And that any covenants made prior to the one true covenant were made invalid. They know for a fact that this New Covenant is Universal and can be enforced upon all others. And yet in 150,000 years this is the first time that any religion made claim to a Universal Authority of God.

Would you not think that such a claim should be challenged and evidence requested to prove such claims. Faith alone is good enough for personal and individual beliefs. Hard Cold Evidence is needed when claims of Universal Authority is claimed. Atleast I believe so.

Inviolable

You miss understand me. I am a Theist, I believe in a God, I personally and my family going back atleast three generations have recieved more then enough evidence to know that a God exists. My belief is not based on mere Faith that a God is real, I have been given overwhelming personal and individual evidence that the God that I believe in is real.

The point that I try to make is that my belief is personal and individual. My beliefs, the evidence and proofs that I have been given to prove to me that a God is real. Though I know beyond any doubt that the God I believe in is real I cannot say that He is the only God. I can not say that the knowledge or information He has given me is valid beyond myself. I know that the God I believe in is real.

But I do not talk face to face with my God, I do not know the inner secrets of His mind, I cannot say anything other then to me personally and individually he is real and exists. But there are Theists out there that claim to know everything about God except maybe his eye color. They know beyond a doubt that there is but one living God. They know beyond a doubt that they are the only true followers of God.

Even though modern man has been around for maybe 150,000 years they know for a fact that the only truly valid covenant made between God and mankind was created some two thousand years ago. And that any covenants made prior to the one true covenant were made invalid. They know for a fact that this New Covenant is Universal and can be enforced upon all others. And yet in 150,000 years this is the first time that any religion made claim to a Universal Authority of God.

Would you not think that such a claim should be challenged and evidence requested to prove such claims. Faith alone is good enough for personal and individual beliefs. Hard Cold Evidence is needed when claims of Universal Authority is claimed. Atleast I believe so.
Judaism goes back pretty far, how long do you think Israel has been around?
There's Egyptian text that's some 3 and a half 4 thousand years old that translates the bible.
I know personally I have a relationship with God, I know him like I know you or anyone else for that matter. You said, you have proof, or evidence on a personal level. Why would a God give you proof if that God didn't want to be personal and how can that God be personal with no guidelines to follow?
I'm asking because I'm also hoping when you answer the question you'll know what you're looking for.
I cant convince you or anyone else that Christianity is right for you, only God can do that.
When you ask for evidence to something you already have personal proof of, you're really just asking my opinion.
My opinion isn't going to matter when you already have the proof.
You're in contact with God, at least thats what I'm getting.
I don't know what that means to you but you do and that knowledge is the best place to start.
Examine it. For all you know it could just be a personal emotion you don't understand or it could actually be God and by looking for answers from someone else you're denying yourself information you already have.

If you already understand that, then please share that information so we can discuss it and move on.

[QUOTE=Inviolable]Judaism goes back pretty far, how long do you think Israel has been around?

To the best of my knowledge Abraham dates back to somewhere around 3,000 to 3,500 BCE. But the God of Abraham was a selective God who had a covenant with a group and who only applied His laws and covenants to that group. Even the O/T shows that the God of Abraham gave orders that the Hebrews were not to disrespect the Gods or beleifs of others.

There's Egyptian text that's some 3 and a half 4 thousand years old that translates the bible.

That is of course impossible. The Bible as we know it has only existed for about 1600 years. If you are refering to the Tora then I have no trouble believing that it can be dated between 1000 to 2000 BCE. But the Tora and the O/T are not one in the same. The O/T is a modified version of the Tora. The Jews not only have the Tora but they also had a verbal account (not quite sure what they call it) that was a supplement to the Tora. The Tora was the written law the verbal account explained what the written accounts truly meant.

I know personally I have a relationship with God, I know him like I know you or anyone else for that matter.

Then your doing better then me. The God I believe in has given me the proof I need to know he is real. But did not bother telling me what his taste in foods are, or what movies he likes or what he looks for in a Goddess. For some reason He did not feel I needed to know that much. But if you know your God as well as you know the people around you I guess your relationship with your God is different then my relationship with my God.

You said, you have proof, or evidence on a personal level. Why would a God give you proof if that God didn't want to be personal and how can that God be personal with no guidelines to follow?

What I said was that I had been given proof that the God I believe in is real. That this proof is individual and personal. When my God brought me into a relationship, and being American he sent me to the Christians religion. While being a Christian I learned what he needed me to learn. I have guide lines or more accurately a Guide line to follow. Apparently that is all I need to know of His will.

Once I learned what it was I needed to learn I left Christianity. For twelve or so years He protected me and prospered me and it was smooth sailing. About two years ago He sunk my boat for some reason that I still have not figured out and though we have been treading ruff waters since I still acknowledge His reality. Though over the last two years I have been far less then joyfull with that reality at times. It does not change the fact that I know He exists.

I'm asking because I'm also hoping when you answer the question you'll know what you're looking for. I cant convince you or anyone else that Christianity is right for you, only God can do that.

And yet the God I believe in guided me to Christianity so that I could learn that Christianity does not represent Him.

When you ask for evidence to something you already have personal proof of, you're really just asking my opinion. My opinion isn't going to matter when you already have the proof.

Your Christianity is showing. I have been given Proof that the God I believe in is real. This does not mean that He is the only God. It does not mean He is the God of the Jews or the God of the Christians or the God of Islam. All it means is that He exists. His existance does not preclude the existance of other Gods. As I said I make no claims to knowing the mind of God or knowing the secrets of the Universe. The only thing I know for a Fact is that for me He exists. Everything else is pretty much guestimations based upon the information provided by the physical world that He has guided me to.

These are the basic's of what I believe I have been guided to believe. That the God I believe in is not the God of Islam, Jewdaism or Christianity. That the God I believe in is a personal and individual God who does not establish religions in His name. Who sometimes establishes relationships with people, but has no requirement for Universal worship or belief. The only hard and fast rule is this. If I do not like having something done to me then I should not do it to another.

That there is no punishments or Damnation for those who do not believe. After death the only thing that one goes through is the life review. Basically the life review is simply reliving every event in your life where you interacted with others from the view point of the other. To put it simply if you were a wife beater you would become the wife who is being beaten. You will feel everything that she felt. The reverse is also true every time you did good works to another you will be the other receiving the good works. After you go through the life review you move on to whatever is next.

You're in contact with God, at least thats what I'm getting. I don't know what that means to you but you do and that knowledge is the best place to start.

This is what you seem not to be getting. I have a relationship with a God. A God that has given me the proof I need to believe in Him. I cannot say that this God is a God for anyone else. There may be a Thousand Gods out there or there may only be one God with a thousand different names, images and persona's. My God has not given me the secrets of the Universe as the Christians seem to believe their God has done. My God has simply given me what I need to know He exists. Everything else I know is simply guestimations based upon the information he has guided me to.

Well that is about it for now. This post must be humungus by now take care and may your God bless and be with you always.

Just for everyone's information, the supplement to the Torah that Tired referred to is the Talmud.

Just for everyone's information, the supplement to the Torah that Tired referred to is the Talmud.


Dark Fantasy thank you for that.

It is probably the most 'important' book --in one sense-- of any kind that was ever written.

I would certainly agree with you that ""it's the most important work of fiction ever written"".....and that it has had a very profound effect on a great number of the earth's inhabitants.

It has caused far more suffering, more hatred, more strife, more killing and more mental imbalance than any other work of fiction ever written.

____________________________

"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth".
--------- Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President I'm not sure that literary critics would agree that it is the most important book of fiction. In fact I am pretty sure most would say it has had a profound effect on the world but not that it is the most important in a literary sense.

I dunno, AFT. I think it's impossible to measure the influence of the Bible on Western literature. Since Western civilization has been largely religious, and largely Christian, since the end of the Roman Empire, almost all works of "great literature" have been written by authors who were Christian or at least exposed very much to the Bible and Christianity from an early age. Bible stories are the first stories children learn in some families, in the past even more so.

I'm not sure that literary critics would agree that it is the most important book of fiction. In fact I am pretty sure most would say it has had a profound effect on the world but not that it is the most important in a literary sense.

It's not the BEST book ever written, it the most IMPORTANT book ever written.

Phyrex

To the followers of the Christian God your probably right.

Phyrex

To the followers of the Christian God your probably right.
Given the contextual definition of important in this case is "of much or great significance or consequence," can you think of a more important book in the history of the world? I certainly cannot, and I am an atheist.

Phyrex

To the followers of the Christian God your probably right.

To anyone, Tired.

Phyrex

In that contex OK your right

Phyrex

In that contex OK your right

Are you about done Pickin on GoD.?
Why not just find a nice rockin chair and play yerself in
checkers.Then some - kick the can - after lunch.
I hope yer prune juice is full of Rum.
is all.

Thus Spake Zarathustra {1883-1891}

" I should only believe in a God that would know how to dance. "
-- Nietzsche

Are you about done Pickin on GoD.?
Why not just find a nice rockin chair and play yerself in
checkers.Then some - kick the can - after lunch.
I hope yer prune juice is full of Rum.
is all.

Thus Spake Zarathustra {1883-1891}

" I should only believe in a God that would know how to dance. "
-- Nietzsche


Depends is God or Gods done picking on man?

Depends is God or Gods done picking on man?

Are Janitors allowed to fire CEO's?

Are Janitors allowed to fire CEO's?
they do if they own the majority of the stock.

Are Janitors allowed to fire CEO's?
They practically can't. But god cannot be compared to a CEO since there is no moral assumptions about a CEO but there is about a god. All a CEO is is someone with power. Are you going to reduce god to nothing more than the most powerful being in existence?

Decka

The Point you seem to be overlooking is this. Does God or Gods have any authority over the Physical World. If they have authority, in what form does this authority take. Is there One Universal God or are there many Selective Gods. Human History indicates that if Gods are real then they are multipule Selective Gods who selectively pick their followers and apply their authority, laws and commandments only to their selected followers.

The is no evidence in human history that a Single Universal God even exists. Your God and Your Gods laws and commandments only apply to His followers. Those laws and commandments do not apply to Non Followers. This is what the available evidence shows.

One of my many flaws is that I like to have things make sense. Now while I do believe in a God and believe that this God is real and believe that I have been given personal and individual proofs that He/She/It is real. I must ask myself after looking at human history, Past, Present and imagining the Future this question.

(Is God Crazy)

If there is one God with one name, one image and one persona who demands Universal worship. Who has but one chosen religion, one chosen priesthood, one righteous path that is to be followed by his followers then why did He not bebop around the world 8,000 years ago when modern man was first building cities and communities.

And tell these people in these cities and communities and tribes. I am Your God. I am establishing a priesthood who will speak for me. You will obey me and my priesthood. If you fail me you will die. If my priests fail me then greater is their damnation. Then every hundred years or so make the rounds and kill the sinners and damn the priests that failed him. After about a thousand years or so the Religious Beliefs would have been so established that no new religious belief could be established.

And if a God like this had done these things, we would have a nice universal religion and church in modern times. And Religious Wars and confrontations would not be a major part of our human history. But according to human history this never occured or happened. History indicates that as far back as the Neanderthal Spiritual and Religous Beliefs abounded. Modern Man had differing God/Goddess for every tribe if not family. Once mankind started building cities and communities even nearbye cities had differing GodHood beliefs.

Any God that demanded Universal Worship. Who would kill or condemn or torment or dispise his creations for not crossing the T's and dotting the I's of His requirements for worship while at the same time not universally establishing those requirements should be under the Websters Defination for (Insanity).

But let's say that this God did not want Universal Worship. What if this God or Gods for that matter wanted selective worship. Take the Jewish God for example. According to the Old Testament the Jewish God did not care one way or the other what non Jews did or believed in. His Laws, Commandments were for the Jews to follow. A non Jew was not punished for violating the Laws of God given to the Jews because a non Jew was not bound by those laws.

While the Jewish God would order the mass slaughter of non Jews it was to bennifit the Jews not because they were violating the Jewish laws or were sinners. It was simply because they were not of the chosen people. Now this God type is slightly better then the Universal type of God. This God is only a problem for you if you lived in the area of his chosen people. And there is some good points about a God like this. Many times the non Jew's were sent by God to Rape, Pillage and Plunder the Jews as punishment for one transgression or another and many non Jewish tribes became rich doing the will of the Jewish God.

Now while this God type is more tolerable then the Universal God type it still does not make sense. If the selective God type was real then why did not Yawah smight Germany and Hitler to save million of his chosen people. Why did not Allah drive the infidel Jews into the sea when they invaded Holy Moslem lands. Or Smight the United States during the first and second Persian Gulf wars. Why did not Jesus intervene on the behalf of his Chosen during 9/11. The Selective God types make no more sense then the Universal God type.

Now for my favorite God type. The SideLine God. The SideLine God is a God who Created all Life. He/She/It/They Created all life using his/her/it's/their essence. So that He/She/It/They could experience reality. So that He/They could experience all that Life itself can experience. There is no need for Worship, Blind Obediance. There is no damnation, judgement. There is only the living of the physical life. And the living of the Spiritual life. Nothing more, Nothing less.

To me this fit's with the Realities of Human History far better then the Universal or Selective God types. That is if God or Gods are even real

One of my many flaws is that I like to have things make sense. Now while I do believe in a God and believe that this God is real and believe that I have been given personal and individual proofs that He/She/It is real.


All you're doing is asking us to compare our religions with your God.

I'm not inclined to tell anyone, because I have my own personal faith or belief in God that their personal faith or belief is wrong.

Other then that I see no point in asking the questions you have.

They practically can't. But god cannot be compared to a CEO since there is no moral assumptions about a CEO but there is about a god. All a CEO is is someone with power. Are you going to reduce god to nothing more than the most powerful being in existence?

You are right Dio.. God cannot be compared to a CEO. A CEO is human. I was merely pointing out the pecking order.. and how little WE, as humans, are compared to God. We are the janitors, no.. check that, we are the giant crap that someone took and missed the toilet that the janitor has to clean up, and God is the CEO whom is perfect in all ways. God is no being, but a divine, supernatural being, and I don't know if you would classify him as "existing".. he/she/it just "is"...

I hope I cleared up my thoughts a bit for you Dio.. if you have any more questions feel free to ask, or just thoughts that pop into your mind.

Decka

The Point you seem to be overlooking is this. Does God or Gods have any authority over the Physical World.

I believe so, and I think that one day he will come (armageddon) and end this world, showing how much authority he DOES have over this physical world. I think if he WANTED to.. he could bring my grandfather back from the dead, or my brother's friend, who tragically died from a routine surgery at the age of 26. This friend was a follower of God, and very good friends with my brother, who is at Duke Divinity School as we speak being ordained as a minister. It is entirely possible and likely that this friend would have done something to the same affect. So, Why would God have this man killed, one might ask? The Lord works in mysterious ways, perhaps his death brought new life into another, so both can enter the kingdom of heaven.

Sorry to go off on the tangent, I'm not looking for sympathy for any deaths in my family. Death is a part of life. My intention was not to use it as a tool to generate something else. I just felt it had a lot to do with what we were talking about.

If they have authority, in what form does this authority take.

I believe God has shown himself in the form of his son, Jesus, and has inspired his word into others in multiple people throughout history, and even everyday people who might go unnoticed. I believe God has shown himself, or an arm of himself, in the form of angels. I also believe the Holy Spirit can fill someone's heart to a feeling of nirvanic happiness. I think God sends visions and messages to people (my brother reported an experience which he said made him fall to his knees and cry in joy), but I think the only way to find God is to get rid of all the things that get in the way (money, job, social events, everyday life, material concerns, etc.). Let go of all that stuff, and put God first. Give up your life to God, submit yourself to him. Be willing to give all that you own if God were to say so. That is what I believe.

Is there One Universal God or are there many Selective Gods.

I Believe there is a monotheistic God. I sometimes ponder that cultural, ethnic, and societal differences have perhaps created different versions of the same God. But the bible labels out pretty blatantly that the Christian God is THE one true God.

Human History indicates that if Gods are real then they are multipule Selective Gods who selectively pick their followers and apply their authority, laws and commandments only to their selected followers.

Yes, I find the practice facinating. Looking at Hindu and Bhuddist history, I even have my favorite Gods in their religions. Do I pray to them? No. I pray to my God, and if me and a bhuddist or hindu are all praying to the same supernatural being, then it all works out

The is no evidence in human history that a Single Universal God even exists. Your God and Your Gods laws and commandments only apply to His followers. Those laws and commandments do not apply to Non Followers. This is what the available evidence shows.

The laws and commandments still apply to non-followers, you just choose not to obey them. If I choose not to "believe" in our law system and go 125 mph in a 35 mph zone, and I get pulled over... I'm getting a ticket, even if I don't agree with or don't believe in the system. And even if I was late to something that was astronomically important. Of course, the choice is up to you whether to follow God and accept Jesus, but it is my belief that God's word apply to everyone .

All you're doing is asking us to compare our religions with your God.

I'm not inclined to tell anyone, because I have my own personal faith or belief in God that their personal faith or belief is wrong.

Other then that I see no point in asking the questions you have.


One, there is not much to compare, The God I believe keeps a relatively low profile. All personal and individual beliefs are valid. Each belief has their own God, accepts the conditions of worship for their God. All of these beliefs are valid. Why should a person compare a God that they are happily following to any other God. If a person is happy with their relationship with their God there is no reason for them to worry about other peoples Gods.

I do not question Pagan, Wiccans, Witches or other simular beliefs because they are personal and individual beliefs. their beliefs are applicable only to them. They tend not to worry about other Gods or beliefs of other people unless the beliefs of other people infringe upon their beliefs. They seem to be quite happy to Worship or believe as they feel they should worship or believe.

Christianity is another matter, they believe that there is but one true God, that there is but one true religon. That all other Gods are False Gods, that all other Religions are false religions. That their God has given them the Commandment to go throughout the world proclaiming all other Gods to be false, proclaiming that all other religions are false. And that all of the followers of the false Gods and False religions will suffer eternal torment and damnation. If they do not follow the One True God, and do not submit to the One True Religion of the One True God

These are some very hefty claims. Is it so unreasonable for someone to say prove it. Is it unreasonable for someone to question the foundations on which such claims are based. If a man walks up to me holding a vial of what appears to be water. And he claims it is a magic liquid that will grant me eternal life, eternal health and all it will cost me is everything I possess including my soul. And if I do not buy his magic liquid then when my body dies my soul will live in eternal torment.

Should I simply hand over everything that I have including my soul based on nothing more then his word that what he says is true. I would be a fool if I did so. If I checked him out and his claims out and found that all available information and evidence shows that what he says is not or cannot be true should I still give him everything that I have including my soul simply because I have Faith that he is telling the truth. Of course not.

I see little difference between this man and Christian beliefs. Both make promises, both make threats, and neither can offer any evidence to support their claims. This is not about my God being better then your God, this is about Your God being no better or worse then the other Gods.

Decka

I actually am beginning to respect you or atleast your ability to handle yourself in these discussions. But let me ask you straight out.

Do you hold your christian beliefs to be personal and individual and applicable to you. Or do you hold your Christian Beliefs to be Universal and applicable to all people Universally. Are you able to acknowledge that your beliefs are valid to you. And that others beliefs are valid them. Or do you consider all other beliefs to be invalid. And only your belief to be valid.

If it is the former, being Personal and individual, then your beliefs are completely valid. If it is the later and you believe your beliefs are Universal and applicable to all people. Then it is invalid. Such claims must be proven. Individual beliefs do not have to be proven. Universal beliefs must be proven. It is as simple as that.

You are right Dio.. God cannot be compared to a CEO. A CEO is human. I was merely pointing out the pecking order.. and how little WE, as humans, are compared to God. We are the janitors, no.. check that, we are the giant crap that someone took and missed the toilet that the janitor has to clean up, and God is the CEO whom is perfect in all ways. God is no being, but a divine, supernatural being, and I don't know if you would classify him as "existing".. he/she/it just "is"...

I hope I cleared up my thoughts a bit for you Dio.. if you have any more questions feel free to ask, or just thoughts that pop into your mind.

******************************
Whats wrong with bein Janitor.? They come in all shape and sizes.
All Ethnicity and gender.Even some Genius,which seems to hold much
Import around those herein who feel Bein Smart constitutes a huge advantage
and superiority in that pecking order of Yourn.Exceptin in God's.
In God's great and vast wonderfulness,anyone derserving of his
Love and reward {Heaven} is taken care of regardless :

- Good Will Hunting - {1997}

Will Will Hunting {Genius} have a chance as Janitor in Heaven.?

I see little difference between this man and Christian beliefs. Both make promises, both make threats, and neither can offer any evidence to support their claims. This is not about my God being better then your God, this is about Your God being no better or worse then the other Gods.[/COLOR]
O.K, so what kind of God do you follow?
Do you think you could give me proof of it?

I can tell you what you need to do to meet the Christian God, but you've already said in the post I am quoting that you wont go there.
The thing about the bible is that it makes it very clear that God doesn't do anything because you want him to.
You do what he wants.
You yourself have made a comment about how your God was blessing your life for a while and how it guided you to the Christian religion to show you that the Christian religion wasn't the one.
I'd assume that the rough patch you mentioned in your life wasn't something you chose. So you have to understand what I'm saying.

With that in mind, what proof do you want?

******************************
Whats wrong with bein Janitor.? They come in all shape and sizes.
All Ethnicity and gender.Even some Genius,which seems to hold much
Import around those herein who feel Bein Smart constitutes a huge advantage
and superiority in that pecking order of Yourn.Exceptin in God's.
In God's great and vast wonderfulness,anyone derserving of his
Love and reward {Heaven} is taken care of regardless :

- Good Will Hunting - {1997}

Will Will Hunting {Genius} have a chance as Janitor in Heaven.?

The moment I started reading your post that movie clicked in my mind. But could not remember the name thanks.

The moment I started reading your post that movie clicked in my mind. But could not remember the name thanks.

" Every little piece of the puzzle doesn't always Fit,

Perfectly "

-- Sara Evans

What makes Livin Life so perplexingly amazing.
Those who seek Perfection also like Denying.

If it's Good enough for GoD it's good enough for Me,me,me,me...
Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Decka

I actually am beginning to respect you or atleast your ability to handle yourself in these discussions.

Thank you, I feel a mutual respect to you. I think our debates have gotten much more healthier in the past week.

But let me ask you straight out.

Do you hold your christian beliefs to be personal and individual and applicable to you. Or do you hold your Christian Beliefs to be Universal and applicable to all people Universally. Are you able to acknowledge that your beliefs are valid to you. And that others beliefs are valid them. Or do you consider all other beliefs to be invalid. And only your belief to be valid.

I believe that God applies to all men, whether they believe or not. Just because I think it applies to all men doesn't mean they have to obey or care at all. I don't think all non-believers should be told and forced to believe in God... they should simply be informed about him, and then they make the choice.


If it is the former, being Personal and individual, then your beliefs are completely valid. If it is the later and you believe your beliefs are Universal and applicable to all people. Then it is invalid. Such claims must be proven. Individual beliefs do not have to be proven. Universal beliefs must be proven. It is as simple as that.

You can call my God invalid if you wish, I can't PROVE his existence. I won't shove God down your throat, but I'll tell you his message, and let you decide for yourself. I'm really not out on a quest to be "valid" and "scientifically proven"... I'm on a quest to grow spiritually closer to God.

Decka

From what I can tell your beliefs are personal and individual to you. While you believe that your Faith is the only correct Faith you do not attempt to apply it to others as a universal faith. As you said, you tell them what you believe is to be Gods truth but you leave it to them to choose. That is what Free Will is.

As long as you do not advocate that secular laws be created to enforce Christian beliefs your beliefs are individual and personal and are just as valid as everyone elses beliefs. People who excersize their Free Will to Reject your God should not have to suffer seculars laws who's purpose is to enforce Gods Laws upon people who have rejected that God and his authority.

Now after all of this understand that my debating and posting is not going to change. To challenge the percieved authority of the Fundamentalists I have to challenge Their God, Their Bible, And their beliefs. And show that Their God, Their Bible And Their beliefs are invalid beyond individual and personal beliefs. Which means I have to trash Their God, Their Bible and Their beliefs.

You believe your God has given you the command to spread his good word to the world. I believe that my God wants me to challenge that good word. As Benjamin Franklin Said (let's agree to disagree). All I ask of you is to believe that all you need is your faith. That Faith is the belief in something regardless of all information and evidence to the contrary.

So long as you believe that then nothing I can say can affect your beliefs because your Faith is the only proof you need to prove your beliefs. Faith and Faith alone proves that your beliefs are true. If you truly believe this then nothing I say should affect those beliefs. So we should have no reason to cross swords again. You seem like a decent person and as long as your beliefs are personal and individual there is no reason for me to challenge them.

But I will challenge the beliefs of the Fundamentalist for they do not hold individual and personal beliefs. They believe that they have the right to impose their beliefs upon people who have excersized their Free Will and have rejected the God and the Religion of the Fundamentalists. So please do not take personal offence at my posts because you are not the focus of my posts or threads.

Take Care and may your God bless and be with you always.

Nice post Tired, i picked out the two paragraphs that I wanted to comment on...


Now after all of this understand that my debating and posting is not going to change. To challenge the percieved authority of the Fundamentalists I have to challenge Their God, Their Bible, And their beliefs. And show that Their God, Their Bible And Their beliefs are invalid beyond individual and personal beliefs. Which means I have to trash Their God, Their Bible and Their beliefs.

I just don't agree at all with this paragraph. I don't see why everyone is in a rush to "be right". As long as people respect other people's beliefs, there is no need for trashing their God, Bible, or beliefs. And even IF some idiot fundamentalists start preaching that you are damned, a sinner, and spit on you for not accepting God... Trashing them back won't make you look any better. If anything, you can show them up by beating them at their own game, and showing kindness to them. While it might be short and sweet, they might rethink their methods.



But I will challenge the beliefs of the Fundamentalist for they do not hold individual and personal beliefs. They believe that they have the right to impose their beliefs upon people who have excersized their Free Will and have rejected the God and the Religion of the Fundamentalists. So please do not take personal offence at my posts because you are not the focus of my posts or threads.

Well I'm glad I'm not the focus of the posts or threads.. and I do distance myself from aggressive fundamentalists as far as the right way to present one's self and loving others, but i AM still a christian, and will ATTEMPT to love those whom I may dislike and just make sure the message gets out. Like I said, I don't have to be "right"... I don't need to win the religious argument... I just need to show compassion and kindness, and express my message.. that's all. The rest is on whoever is listening.

Take Care and may your God bless and be with you always.

Thank you, and God bless you too

O.K, so what kind of God do you follow?

None.

Do you think you could give me proof of it?

I could do better than that. I could show you that absolutely zero proof for any 'god' exists.

I can tell you what you need to do to meet the Christian God

Ewww.

If I thought you were actually capable of that, I would get as far away from you as possible.

I would never want to meet such a monstrous entity; an omnipotent being who would order infants to be slaughtered.

<shudders>

Nice post Tired, i picked out the two paragraphs that I wanted to comment on...
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiredbeyondbeli
Now after all of this understand that my debating and posting is not going to change. To challenge the percieved authority of the Fundamentalists I have to challenge Their God, Their Bible, And their beliefs. And show that Their God, Their Bible And Their beliefs are invalid beyond individual and personal beliefs. Which means I have to trash Their God, Their Bible and Their beliefs.

I just don't agree at all with this paragraph. I don't see why everyone is in a rush to "be right". As long as people respect other people's beliefs, there is no need for trashing their God, Bible, or beliefs. And even IF some idiot fundamentalists start preaching that you are damned, a sinner, and spit on you for not accepting God... Trashing them back won't make you look any better. If anything, you can show them up by beating them at their own game, and showing kindness to them. While it might be short and sweet, they might rethink their methods.

Decka it is not about me being right. Whether my beliefs are right or wrong my beliefs do not affect anyone else. The same with Pagans, Wiccans, Wiches and all simular religions. Whether their beleifs are right or wrong their beliefs do not affect others. We do not claim to know the Universal Truths of God. To know the inner secrets of God. We simply believe what we beleive.

Though you atleast acknowledge someones right to reject your God the very basis of your belief dispises all other beliefs. What difference does it make If you preach that this Only Living God of yours is the only way to eternal life. And simply telling someone that their God is false their religions are false, their Faith is False and that they will suffer eternal damnation. There is no difference.

You can be as nice as you want to be. The result is the same you are dispising their beleifs. And yet you have no more proof to support your beliefs then they have for their beliefs. In fact when you take into account the contradictions and inconsistancies contained in the bible the misuse and false claims of prophecy. And actual Christian History showing very little in common with the public teachings of Jesus. You probably have less evidence then they do. But as I said atleast you acknowledge someones right to reject your God.

Fundamentists do not have the same moral fiber that you have. (In God We Trust) on money or (Under God) in the pledge of alligiance dispises all other beliefs. Attempting to deny Homosexuals basic human rights. Trying to influence the science and medical fields by imposing their moral codes upon those who do not accept those codes. I drove thru texas a couple of months ago and actually found dry counties where no alcohol could be sold.

Laws against prostitution based soley upon Christian values. There are still cities in this country where selling alcohol or selling things in a pawn shop on sunday is illegal. Based on Christian values. The Boy Scouts of America a Bigoted Religous Militant Group thinking that it is entitled to public resources while practicing bigotry. The demanding that the Holliday season celebrated by three or four religions be known only as Christmas.

Sorry Becka, but fundamentalists are not (let bygones be bygones) They dispise all other religions, they dispise all other Gods, Heck they even dispise other Christians who do not believe as they do. And you think that my showing love to them will change them. That is like saying if I pat a rabbid killer pit bull on it's head it wont rip my arm off at the socket and tear my throat out. That is not an experiment that I would be willing to try.

Let me give you one of Jesus's teachings that I happen to believe in. (As you would have others do unto you, so do unto others) simple stuff. If the Fundamentalists wish to dispise all other religions, if they wish to dispise all other Gods. If they wish to dispise all people who do not believe as they do. Well they must be wanting the same to be done to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiredbeyondbeli
But I will challenge the beliefs of the Fundamentalist for they do not hold individual and personal beliefs. They believe that they have the right to impose their beliefs upon people who have excersized their Free Will and have rejected the God and the Religion of the Fundamentalists. So please do not take personal offence at my posts because you are not the focus of my posts or threads.

Well I'm glad I'm not the focus of the posts or threads.. and I do distance myself from aggressive fundamentalists as far as the right way to present one's self and loving others, but i AM still a christian, and will ATTEMPT to love those whom I may dislike and just make sure the message gets out. Like I said, I don't have to be "right"... I don't need to win the religious argument... I just need to show compassion and kindness, and express my message.. that's all. The rest is on whoever is listening.

Decka let me ask you something. Have you in your life in the United States come accross anyone. Who was not aware of Jesus Christ. Who was not aware of the Christian religion. Who did not atleast have a basic understanding of the Christian Religion. I have yet to meet a Atheist who was not atleast as knowlegeable in the bible as most Christians. I have meet Atheists that could quote the bible from memory.

I have written a book on the bible showing the contradictions and inconsistencies, the misuse of prophecy and false use of prophecy. Jesus gave the great commandment to go forth and spread the word. Dont you think that in America the word has already been spread to the point that Golloshes might be needed. Have you ever met a person who had not heard of Jesus. Have you ever met a person who was not atleast familar with the Christian Religion and it's beliefs. I know I havent.

There is a verse in the bible that I am kinda fond of. It goes something like this. (Tell me of your Faith without works. I will show you my Faith by my works) or something like that. A man can go through his entire life showing his Faith in Jesus/God through his works. He never even has to open his mouth to say the name Jesus. You say you try to show your Faith through the loving, caring and respect you show to others even those that may tick you off. (I do not include myself in that group though, LOL) And that is what a Christ like person is supposed to do. Though the very foundation of Christianity is the dispising of other beliefs, Gods and people. You do not come accross as being a person who would actually dispise another.

While I reject the Christian God and the Christian religion as being valid except as personal and individual I do hold great respect for the public teachings of Jesus. Though I think Budda had far better life teachings. Anyone who follows the public teachings of Jesus in regards to living life is doing good. The O/T and the Teachings of the Apostles can be thrown out the window. But Jesus's public teachings concerning how one should live their lives are good teachings.



Take Care Decka and may your God Bless and be With You Always.

You are right Dio.. God cannot be compared to a CEO. A CEO is human. I was merely pointing out the pecking order.. and how little WE, as humans, are compared to God. We are the janitors, no.. check that, we are the giant crap that someone took and missed the toilet that the janitor has to clean up, and God is the CEO whom is perfect in all ways. God is no being, but a divine, supernatural being, and I don't know if you would classify him as "existing".. he/she/it just "is"...

I hope I cleared up my thoughts a bit for you Dio.. if you have any more questions feel free to ask, or just thoughts that pop into your mind. "We must question the logic of having an all-knowing, all powerful God, who creates faulty humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes."-Gene Roddenberry

O.K, so what kind of God do you follow?
Do you think you could give me proof of it?

I can tell you what you need to do to meet the Christian God, but you've already said in the post I am quoting that you wont go there. The thing about the bible is that it makes it very clear that God doesn't do anything because you want him to. You do what he wants.

You yourself have made a comment about how your God was blessing your life for a while and how it guided you to the Christian religion to show you that the Christian religion wasn't the one. I'd assume that the rough patch you mentioned in your life wasn't something you chose. So you have to understand what I'm saying.

With that in mind, what proof do you want?

Inviolable, I already know what it takes to meet the Christian God, it takes believing that the bible is the infallable truth of the Christian God, That Jesus was the physical name, image and persona of God. That believing that Jesus/God came to cleanse us of our sins. By simply having Faith that all of this is true, and acknowledging Jesus as my personal savior.

You could not tell me anything about the Christian Religion that I am not already aware of. When I came into the Faith and became a Christian I learned the bible and Christian beliefs. What I found is that if the Christian God is indeed perfect and without flaws. If the Christian God wrote or guided the writtings of his holy book. Then his holy book should be representive of that perfection.

But the Christian Holy Book does not indicate perfection or anything even remotely close to perfection. It is filled with contradictions and inconsistancies. O/T prophecys were misused or falsely used to support Jesus's divinity when the prophecies had nothing to do with Jesus. The Apostles contradict each other on every major event in the bible concerning Jesus.

The only proof or evidence that could be given to me to make me believe that the Christian God or Christian Beliefs are valid beyond personal and individual beliefs would be for the Christian God to touch my soul and say (I am here, and I am real). No evidence or proofs put forth by mankind can be evidence or proofs of a God. Only God or Gods can give the proof and evidence needed to establish their reality.

The God that I believe in touched my soul, filled me with His love, and said (I am here, and I am real) That is the only acceptable proof or evidence that God or Gods exist. And that evidence or proof is only valid in regards to personal and individual beliefs. For any God to claim Universal Authority it must give individual and personal proof to all the followers that he/she/it wishes to have as followers.

Now while the last two years have been a living pain in the arse. They do not negate the previous 12 years of prosperity and protection and do not negate the reality of the God that I believe in. I do not understand the purpose of the last two years in regards to our relatonship but I am willing to cut him some slack. I will simply assume there is a purpose behind it.

As for the ruff patch that I have be in for the last two years. It started with me having a high speed roll over in a Big truck with two trailers in which I received nothing more then minor bruising and scratches my co driver took serious back injuries but if he had not had the sleeper safety restraints in place would have gone through the front window. The truck ended up in a 50 ft ditch on my drivers door side. The frame was twisted almost 180 degrees out of true. The front trailer was completely turned over resting on what was left of it's roof the Dolly twisted about 180 degrees out of true allowing the rear trailer to remain on it's wheels minus it's landing gear. The front axle was twisted nearly to the front and back positions instead of the side to side position. All engine mounts broke without the engine coming through the fire wall and into my lap.

I Lost a job paying 65 thousand a year. Being unemployed for more then two years. Having a older brother who I and another brother went heavily into debt to help during a time of need, stabbed us in the back and hung us out to dry. I am already financially destroyed. And my other brother who was helping my oldest brother like I had, is nearly in the same financial position. My dad died one year after the accident and two years after the accident we found out my mom has colon cancer and possibly breast cancer.

So when I say I am not overly happy with the God I believe in at the moment, I am not yet willing to denounce or reject him. I am simply waiting to see what is ahead of us. We have to stay in Tucson because of my moms medical treatments and operations and yet by staying in Tucson it is making the financial situation even worse.

So as I said While I am not Jumping for Joy at the moment in regards to my relationship with the God I believe in. I am not yet ready to throw in the towel on Him either. Well that is about it for now.

May your God bless and be with you always.

[COLOR="Blue"]Inviolable, I already know what it takes to meet the Christian God, it takes believing that the bible is the infallable truth of the Christian God, That Jesus was the physical name, image and persona of God. That believing that Jesus/God came to cleanse us of our sins. By simply having Faith that all of this is true, and acknowledging Jesus as my personal savior.

Thats what you have to do to get the "(I am here, and I am real)" feeling.

You could not tell me anything about the Christian Religion that I am not already aware of.
Thats why I didn't go into it and simply said, "you've already said in the post I am quoting that you wont go there"

Which pretty much addresses the post you made that I am currently quoting or replying to.

When you say things like "I am simply waiting to see what is ahead of us".

You're pretty much admitting that you have no control over what happens when it comes to your God. Especially when you back it up by saying, "I am not overly happy with the God I believe in at the moment, I am not yet willing to denounce or reject him."

Which to me means that you understand that what you want has no bearing on what your God wants. That for some reason your God has stopped helping you and your life has turned into disarray.

I'm not trying to point out that I think your God is not a good God. I' am simply trying to say that you understand that you do not control your God.
It seems obvious that you can not give it demands and you know that you can not give it commands.

So when I say, you can have the warm and fuzzy feeling you're looking for. I mean to say, that the warm and fuzzy feeling is given to you by my God and not me. That is to say, if you want the Christian God to make an appearance, you're going to have to do it in the way he says you have to.

As your life shows, I'm sure you understand that God doesn't jump to my commands.

As a Christian I'm not E.T. I cant stick out my finger and go, ouch.. and pass along a warm and fuzzy feeling.

So the evidence, or proof you want will have to come from you and you alone. By simply asking Jesus for forgiveness.

When you say you want proof of God, you already know how to get it.

Thats what you have to do to get the "(I am here, and I am real)" feeling.

No Inviolable, To get that (I am here, and I am real) feeling only takes having a God touch your soul. There was no need for me to throw my intelligence and common sense and sense of reality out the window to get that feeling. All it took was for the God I believe in to give me the proof I needed to believe.

Thats why I didn't go into it and simply said, "you've already said in the post I am quoting that you wont go there" Which pretty much addresses the post you made that I am currently quoting or replying to. When you say things like "I am simply waiting to see what is ahead of us". You're pretty much admitting that you have no control over what happens when it comes to your God. Especially when you back it up by saying, "I am not overly happy with the God I believe in at the moment, I am not yet willing to denounce or reject him."

Of course I cannot dictate terms to the God I believe in. The only control that I have in the relatonship is whether or not I choose to accept or reject my God. For now I choose to accept my God. But does this same thing apply to Christianity of course not. The God that I believe in and the Higher powers of other beliefs are selective in Nature. They do not claim universal authority over all people or all other Gods.

They establish their relationships with their followers and their authority stops with their followers. I nor the pagans, wiccans, witches or any other simular beliefs have to produce any evidence or proofs of our beliefs because these are personal and individual beliefs that do not affect people or Gods outside of the belief structure. None of these beliefs claim Universal Authority and as such do not need to produce evidence or proof that their beleifs are valid outside of the personal and individual beliefs themselves.

Christianity on the other hand claims Universal Authority over all other people, Gods and Beliefs. That all other Gods and Beliefs are invalid because there is but One Living God who has Universal Authority over all life. And that only the Christian Religion is valid. For a Universal Authority claim to be made then evidence and proofs must be given to verify such claims. If the evidence and proof cannot be given to support such a claim then it must be assumed that the Christian God is simply a selective God and is no better or worse then any other selective God.

If all available evidence including the Christian Gods own holy book indicates a selective God then the Laws and commandments of this selective God can only apply to his followers. And cannot be applied outside of the religion itself.

Which to me means that you understand that what you want has no bearing on what your God wants. That for some reason your God has stopped helping you and your life has turned into disarray. I'm not trying to point out that I think your God is not a good God. I' am simply trying to say that you understand that you do not control your God. It seems obvious that you can not give it demands and you know that you can not give it commands.

Agreed, as I said earlier the only control I have is the right to reject my God and either become a Deist or accept another God and become his theist follower. That is the only control that I have in the relationship. But put that to the side for the moment. If the Christians wish to believe in a Single Universal God. If they wish to believe that all other Gods and religions are invalid. If they wish to believe that all people who reject their God will suffer eternal damnation. They have the God given and constitutional right to hold these beliefs, Just as the KKK, Skin Heads and any other Racist or Bigoted Belief has the right to hold their beliefs No proofs or evidence is required when these beliefs are personal and individual.

If a belief is passive and is individual and personal no evidence or proof is needed to validate that belief. But the moment a belief becomes Offensive then the proofs and evidence of that beliefs validity must be given. Example the KKK believes that Blacks are subhuman and inferior to whites. That since blacks are subhumans and inferior to whites they have no inherent human rights. And since blacks have no inherent human rights. A couple of Good Old Boys tie a black man to the rear bumber of their truck and drag him 25 miles over dirt, rock and asphalt roads.

Now if they do not want to sit in the electric chair, they need to establish the validity of their beliefs. Since it is very unlikely that they can verify their beliefs as being valid. They are going to get fried. While Rasist and Bigots have the God given and Constitutional rights to Individually, Personally and Passively believe as they wish they do not have the right to Offensively apply those beliefs upon others.

Christians just like racists, and bigots can believe whatever they wish to believe without having any proof or evidence to support those beliefs so long as those beliefs are individual and personal and passive. When Christians Blockade an abortion clinic, or attempt to scare, threaten or intimidate women who are attempting to have abortions or harrass women who have had abortions, destroying abortion clinics or murdering abortion doctors. Then their beliefs are no longer individual, personal or passage. They have now become Criminals and Terrorists.

The moment that a belief is applied outside of the individual or group beliefs it is now being use offensively. Laws against Prostitution are Christian Based and should never have been allowed. Hopefully they will be thrown out one day. Prostitution is nothing more then an agreement between two consenting adults for sexual services for a cash or barter payment. There is no verifiable grounds for having a secular law that forbides this. secular law to regulate it as a business yes, to tax it yes. But there is no grounds on which banning it is justifiable under secular law.

It is illegal simply because of Christian beliefs nothing more. In a secular Government no law should be established who's primary purpose is to enforce a religious belief. You yourself say that proof or evidence cannot be demanded of your God. Fine then your God does not have any say so in regards to the physical reality. Or in a secular Nation. If your God wishes dominion in the physical reality then he can establish that dominion by given proofs and evidence of his authority. If he does not give proofs or evidence of that authorty. Then he needs to mind his own business when it comes to the physical reality.

So when I say, you can have the warm and fuzzy feeling you're looking for. I mean to say, that the warm and fuzzy feeling is given to you by my God and not me. That is to say, if you want the Christian God to make an appearance, you're going to have to do it in the way he says you have to.

Or to get that warm fuzzy feeling I can simply find a God who can give it to me without the conditions and burdens that your God requires.

As your life shows, I'm sure you understand that God doesn't jump to my commands. As a Christian I'm not E.T. I cant stick out my finger and go, ouch.. and pass along a warm and fuzzy feeling. So the evidence, or proof you want will have to come from you and you alone. By simply asking Jesus for forgiveness. When you say you want proof of God, you already know how to get it.

And I have gotten that proof from my God. No Jesus required. I mean no batteries required. Christianity. Been there done that. Learned what I needed to reject it.

And I have gotten that proof from my God. No Jesus required. I mean no batteries required. Christianity. Been there done that. Learned what I needed to reject it.
So, why are you asking for proof now?

And.

Has it happens a good friend of mine is Wiccan and they do adhere to a belief that what they believe in effects everyone.
Even though, they are known for saying something like, and it harm none do as you will...

What comes around goes around.

Seems to be a very well used phrase in quite a few religions.

You keep repeating how you rejected the Christian religion and why you have and yet none of the Christians you have talked to here has yet to tell you why you shouldn't be worshiping the God you are. Non of us has told you how awful your religion is and you have devoted entire pages explaining why you don't like Christianity.

So I say again, there is no point to your questions other then you want to point out how much better you and your God are then Christianity. You have even gone as far as to say that your God wants you to point out that Christianity is wrong.
The fact that Christians hold to the belief that all other religions and Gods are false shouldn't effect you unless you want it to.
Do you want it to?

So, why are you asking for proof now?

Inviolable, The proof and evidence I ask for is the proof or evidence that the Christian God has universal authority. He does have authority over his followers as all Gods have authority over their followers. I do not doubt the existence of God or Gods. I believe that either Gods exist or One Single God exists who has established hundreds or thousands of different beliefs, names, images and persona's. Each belief, name, image and persona being as valid as any other belief, name, image and persona.

So I do not have a problem with God or Gods existing. I do not have any problem with recognizing the validity of other beliefs, names, images and persona's of God or Gods. The problem I have is a Religious Belief that claims Universal Authority. That claims all other Gods and beliefs to be invalid. Claiming that their God and there God alone has Universal Authority over all of mankind.

Claiming that their God should be acknowledged on secular currency. That their version of Prayer should be mandated in secular schools. That their Holy Book be mandated reading in secular schools. That Science and Medical research should be restricted to only those fields that they approve of. That secular laws exist or be established to enforce their religious beliefs. That their definitions of sin be enforced as criminality.

If such claims of Universal Authority are made, I would like to see the proof and evidence that supports the validity of these claims. While no proof or evidence can be required in regards to personal and individual beliefs that are passive. Proof and Evidence must be required when a belief claims Universal Authority and Power to impose those beliefs outside of their belief structure.

Inviolable, The proof and evidence I ask for is the proof or evidence that the Christian God has universal authority. He does have authority over his followers as all Gods have authority over their followers. I do not doubt the existence of God or Gods. I believe that either Gods exist or One Single God exists who has established hundreds or thousands of different beliefs, names, images and persona's. Each belief, name, image and persona being as valid as any other belief, name, image and persona.

So I do not have a problem with God or Gods existing. I do not have any problem with recognizing the validity of other beliefs, names, images and persona's of God or Gods. The problem I have is a Religious Belief that claims Universal Authority. That claims all other Gods and beliefs to be invalid. Claiming that their God and there God alone has Universal Authority over all of mankind.

Claiming that their God should be acknowledged on secular currency. That their version of Prayer should be mandated in secular schools. That their Holy Book be mandated reading in secular schools. That Science and Medical research should be restricted to only those fields that they approve of. That secular laws exist or be established to enforce their religious beliefs. That their definitions of sin be enforced as criminality.

If such claims of Universal Authority are made, I would like to see the proof and evidence that supports the validity of these claims. While no proof or evidence can be required in regards to personal and individual beliefs that are passive. Proof and Evidence must be required when a belief claims Universal Authority and Power to impose those beliefs outside of their belief structure.

Yes I'm sorry, I know sometimes my post aren't to clear.
The only way you're going to get an answer is to ask the Christian God. Ask him to show you.
Unfortunately the only way to do that is to ask Jesus for forgiveness and get to know the Christian God.

You'd kinda be like Luke Skywalker, knowing both sides of the force.

Inviolable

So you would advise me to despise the God who has proven himself to me by seeking information and knowledge from a rival God who has dispised not only my God but all other Gods. I dont think so. While my God has pulled his protection from me for two years. I do not believe for a second that my God would take negative actions against me in seeking this God of yours.

I would not do this to him for he has not done anything in which I could justify that level of disrespect. By the way on another board someone just reminded me that the bible is full of references to Other Gods and their reality. Even the Jewish God referenced the reality of other Gods. I will start digging them up to support my foundation that their is not One God.

And by the way thanks. You have been a good person to debate with on this board. You and Decka have impressed me as being actual christians and Jesus follers not the far less desirable Fundamentalists.

Has it happens a good friend of mine is Wiccan and they do adhere to a belief that what they believe in effects everyone.
Even though, they are known for saying something like, and it harm none do as you will...

What comes around goes around.




two of my sisters are Wiccan and they firmly adhere to the karma rule.
what you do to others comes back to you in triple.....whether it be good or bad....
It's not an overly bad rule to live by either,makes one think a little harder before they set out to harm another though

Inviolable

So you would advise me to despise the God who has proven himself to me by seeking information and knowledge from a rival God who has dispised not only my God but all other Gods. I dont think so. While my God has pulled his protection from me for two years. I do not believe for a second that my God would take negative actions against me in seeking this God of yours.

I know you have given reasons why you don't want to adhere to Christianity and I am in no way trying to push you in that direction.
I would like to ask a question, if you wouldn't mind answering. If you do mind I totally understand and respect it.
You have reasons, like I said and you have told us those reasons several times. I completely understand them.
But why would your God push you away from it?
As I said, I know your reasons and understand them.
While I can see that you have probably had Christians confront you about Christianity and do their best to get you to see things their way, the Christian God seems to be completely void in that respect.
I can see where you may have had plenty of "people" trying to push you in the direction of Christianity. But Jesus has yet to even give you so much as a little shove or a sideways look. From what I've read of your post anyway.
So my question is more directly related to your God and not so much as to your opinions.
Why would your God even care to select Christianity and make sure you knew it wasn't the right one. When it's obvious Jesus himself hasn't persuaded you to do anything.

I would not do this to him for he has not done anything in which I could justify that level of disrespect. By the way on another board someone just reminded me that the bible is full of references to Other Gods and their reality. Even the Jewish God referenced the reality of other Gods. I will start digging them up to support my foundation that their is not One God.
Again, I don't mean to push you away from your God or drag you to mine.
I'm simply telling you the only way you're going to get the answer you're looking for. With your decision, that being that you dont want to ask Jesus for forgiveness. Then there would be no more need to debate or talk about the question you have asked.

And by the way thanks. You have been a good person to debate with on this board. You and Decka have impressed me as being actual christians and Jesus follers not the far less desirable Fundamentalists.
Thank you, you have been very kind as well.

Inviolable, Actually all I said was that My God had pulled his protection. Not that he was rejecting or pushing me away. I am sure that you are very familar with the story of Job. I see myself in a simular situation. Now in Job's case his God not only pulled his protection but actually took negative actions Job. In my case my God simply pulled his well to tell you the truth I cannot even say his protection. But his prospering.

The mere fact that I have not blown my brains out, been committed to an Asylum or in Jail for committing murder I cannot really say He has pulled his protection because over the last two years I have been a hairs breath away from those things on a number of occations. And before anyone gets nervous, no I am not suicidal nor am I a danger to anyone else. So it would probably be more accurate to say that my God has pulled his prosperity from me.

I had been fired from a security supervisor position. When the company challenged my unemployment I won the hearing and collected my benefitts when my bennifitts had nearly run out I found a Adult training course for truck driving and was told my bennifitts would be extended to cover the training. For some reason I went down to the registration building at about 2am in the morning so that I would easily find it in the morning.

When I arrived I found 40 people already lined up to register. So I got into line and waited. There was only 20 openings for the class. I was the 41st person in line. 23 people ahead of me were disqualified because of where they lived or other reasons. I and two others behind me got in. I got a commercial drivers licence and began working for a refer company and worked there for two years.

I had actually had a sychic tell me that I would have a former co-worker who would help me to get a better job. about two months later I had a former co-driver who had quit to work for a better company call me up and told me that his new company was hiring. They required three years of Over The Road experience I had two years. I was in the tenth year of a DUI on my record which still came up on my DMV report.

But I was hired, Starting pay 50 thousand a year. I worked for three years at which time I was grossing 55 thousand a year. I got a speeding ticket for going twenty miles over the spead limit and was fired. At 20 miles over the speed limit your commercial license is revoked. I was able to get the ticket expunged. 9 months after being fired I was rehired at the same pay.

I could not figure out why God had allowed me to get the ticket. I had not known that I was in a restricted speed zone. And I was used to His protecting me from my own stupidity. I finally figured out that He allowed me to get the ticket and allowed me to be fired because I had been sitting on my book. So I cashed out my retirment accounts and paid 13 thousand dollars to have the book published. I had enough money left to keep me afloat for the 9 months I was not working.

I worked for another 5 years with this company until my roll over. My ending pay was 65 thousand a year. I have never owned a house did not really splurge on anything other then I bought a new Axiom. Most of my money was spent helping out any famlly that got into financial problems. freely gave money out to strangers or homeless. My co-driver was in a truck stop restraunt once and heard a guy talking about how giving money to bums who would simply spend it on alcohol was the stupidest thing he could think of doing.

My co-driver told him where our truck was parked it's number and told him to go out to the truck bang on the door to wake me up and ask me for money. He told the driver that if I gave him less then twenty dollars, he would give the driver fourty dollars. The driver did not take him up on it. My belief was based on Jesus's teachings about not letting your left hand know what your right hand is doing. Give without thought, without questions and without memory. Give to he who asks without hesitation.

With the kind of money I was making it was easily done and if I gave less then twenty dollars there was some reason for it. Later on my oldest brother fell on hard times and I would help them out. I gave my mom a credit card to use. I gave my oldest brothers wife a couple of credit cards to help out. I finally had to cover all of their utility bills and food bills while they covered their morgage.

Then due to illness my oldest brother lost his job. And I could not cover both the morgage and non morgage bills. So another brother covered their morgage for two years while I covered everything else including putting his wife through pedicure and manicure school bought her the equipment and supplies needed Just about the time that my dad died my oldest brother settled a law suit related to his illness. At which point I my other brother and my mom ceased to exist.

Now after 8 plus years of having my God prospering me beyond my needs and being able to freely give without thought, without question, without memory. It tends to be a pain in the arse to now be financially destroyed nearly 80 thousand dollars in debt trading labor for room and board, being unemployed for two years. My other brother bought two houses in Tucson for rehabing about a month before the Housing market dumped.

But I will give it to my God. As bad as it is it could be worse. We have not lost either house to forclosure. One has been rented, my brother can rehire to the post office which he had to quit to free up funds for keeping us afloat. So I cant gripe to much I just do not have to like it.

But Jesus has yet to even give you so much as a little shove or a sideways look. From what I've read of your post anyway. So my question is more directly related to your God and not so much as to your opinions.
Why would your God even care to select Christianity and make sure you knew it wasn't the right one. When it's obvious Jesus himself hasn't persuaded you to do anything.

First off I am an Middle age White American male how many widely available religions are there. Two My God has nothing against Jesus, from what I can tell my God see's nothing wrong with Jesus or the public teachings of Jesus. Most of my beliefs are based on his public teachings. I am sure if I was Asian I would have been lead to Buddism. Budda's life teaching are better But Jesus's public life teachings are more then acceptable for living a good life.

Again, I don't mean to push you away from your God or drag you to mine.
I'm simply telling you the only way you're going to get the answer you're looking for. With your decision, that being that you dont want to ask Jesus for forgiveness. Then there would be no more need to debate or talk about the question you have asked.

Inviolable, you are the first Chrisitan that I have ever talked to who has discussed the multi God belief without automatically rejecting or dispising such a belief. You have discussed with me both my beliefs and your beliefs and at know time have I noticed any negative indications from you. I truly hope that your God truly blessess you for you are one of the true followers of Jesus. You are the type of Christian that actually makes me think that Christianity is not a completely lost cause. Well time to go. once again may your God bless and be with you in all things.

Thank you, you have been very kind as well.[/QUOTE]

Tired, I wish you luck and hope that things get better for you soon.

Tired, I wish you luck and hope that things get better for you soon.


To tell you they truth I went through some real heavy emotional termoil there for a while. Last Month or two I am almost back to the person that I was back before the roll over. Just broke. And like I said earlier things could actually be worse.

Thank you for your best wishes. And I wish the best for you as well. Take Care and may your God bless and be with you always.

Wow, you guys are getting into some deep stuff in this thread... Interesting read!

Tired - It's so great that you're such a generous person and willing to help out your family even when it's not entirely convenient for you. My dad is the same way - it's because of him that I always give money to homeless people, although not much because I am supported by my parents and don't really have much to throw around. Sometimes I even talk to them about their lives. I think it does more for them to know that someone cares than just to have some change thrown at them as you run by.

Dark Fantasy

There are many of Jesus's Public teachings that I take to heart. The left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing is one of them. He commented that if you give and then promote that you gave negates the good of the giving in regards to it being a good deed.

If you give in secret, not letting even yourself to know or remember the act, then it is accounted as a good deed. By telling of my helping my oldest brother it negates the Good Deed aspect of that help. But I had to make a point and that was the only way to make the point. To me Jesus's point was that.

When asked, you give. You give without question to the need. You give without memory of giving. So that only God and the reciever knows that you gave when you were asked. Or atleast that is my interpretation of this teaching.

Wow, you guys are getting into some deep stuff in this thread... Interesting read!

I find it exactly as "interesting" as hearing two inmates at the local asylum arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Inmate one; My gawd let me have a truck wreck!

Inmate two; But why would your gawd cause that to happen?!?!

Inmate one; Naw. He didn't cause it. He just lifted his 'protection'. It was for my own good.

Inmate two; Well, yeah, sure. Gawds will do that from time to time.

I find it exactly as "interesting" as hearing two inmates at the local asylum arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Inmate one; My gawd let me have a truck wreck!

Inmate two; But why would your gawd cause that to happen?!?!

Inmate one; Naw. He didn't cause it. He just lifted his 'protection'. It was for my own good.

Inmate two; Well, yeah, sure. Gawds will do that from time to time.

Free Thinker. If it keeps the inmates occupied and intertained so that they do not get bored and attempt to mix with the sane people. Does it really matter?

"We must question the logic of having an all-knowing, all powerful God, who creates faulty humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes."-Gene Roddenberry

As much as I love Gene Roddenberry for his Creation of Star Trek... He is welcome to his opinion.. but mine probably matters just as much as his.

If God created us all perfect, it would be like watching a basketball game where every player made every shot.. it would get boring. What gets interesting is the "human" element.. the mistakes, the emotions... and if you can overcome them. I think God could have us "make every shot".. but instead watches to see which outcome we choose...

As much as I love Gene Roddenberry for his Creation of Star Trek... He is welcome to his opinion.. but mine probably matters just as much as his.

If God created us all perfect, it would be like watching a basketball game where every player made every shot.. it would get boring. What gets interesting is the "human" element.. the mistakes, the emotions... and if you can overcome them. I think God could have us "make every shot".. but instead watches to see which outcome we choose...


Hi Decka, I would agree with your assessment if God accepted those mistakes or sins as simply being a part of the physical world and did not penalize people for being the flawed creations that we are. Your assessment falls short though if God created faulty creations and punshed them simply because they are flawed creations.

Hope all is going well for you. May your God bless and be with you always

Decka it is not about me being right. Whether my beliefs are right or wrong my beliefs do not affect anyone else. The same with Pagans, Wiccans, Wiches and all simular religions. Whether their beleifs are right or wrong their beliefs do not affect others. We do not claim to know the Universal Truths of God. To know the inner secrets of God. We simply believe what we beleive.

I'd say all have their respectful members and all have their disrespectful members. I've seen Wiccans and Pagans tell me I'm stupid and "fucked" for believing in God, just like you've heard christian fundies say the same thing. It casts a bad name on the entire religion... regardless of which one it is.

Though you atleast acknowledge someones right to reject your God the very basis of your belief dispises all other beliefs. What difference does it make If you preach that this Only Living God of yours is the only way to eternal life. And simply telling someone that their God is false their religions are false, their Faith is False and that they will suffer eternal damnation. There is no difference.

You are right that Christianity is grounded in the belief that you must believe in Jesus's God, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit. I am strictly praying to the Christian God. Do I absolutely neglect Taoist, Hindu, and Buddhist Gods? I don't pray to them, but I don't say they should be cancelled and exterminated. After studying them, I don't see any of the other religions encouraging it's members to go and pray to the Christian God either... All religions have their own belief, which is why you pray to that religion's God. As basic as it is, you seem to want to denounce christinaity because it's beliefs are that it's God is the correct one. ALL believe that. And, might I add, multiple religions center their prayer towards the Christian God - Islam, Judaism, and Christianity.... I'm not trying to PROVE that "my God is right" with that statement, but it IS a statement of fact.

You can be as nice as you want to be. The result is the same you are dispising their beleifs. And yet you have no more proof to support your beliefs then they have for their beliefs. In fact when you take into account the contradictions and inconsistancies contained in the bible the misuse and false claims of prophecy. And actual Christian History showing very little in common with the public teachings of Jesus. You probably have less evidence then they do. But as I said atleast you acknowledge someones right to reject your God.

I do respect someone's choice to reject my God. That is the key word, respect (cited: Aretha Franklin). How can I "despise" someone's belief's when I respect their choice to reject? Personally, I simply tell them my message and show them kindness, humility, and compassion. It's not up to me to judge their beliefs.. it's up to God. So no, i personally don't judge their beliefs, I just choose not to believe them, as they have chosen not to believe in mine.

Fundamentists do not have the same moral fiber that you have. (In God We Trust) on money or (Under God) in the pledge of alligiance dispises all other beliefs. Attempting to deny Homosexuals basic human rights. Trying to influence the science and medical fields by imposing their moral codes upon those who do not accept those codes. I drove thru texas a couple of months ago and actually found dry counties where no alcohol could be sold.

I agree that if America is going to be a secular nation, Christian values can't be imposed on it's citizens. however, I think having "in God we Trust" on money isn't forcing anyone to do anything, it's more of a traditional, historical symbol of our culture. Back in the 1800's, the bible was a textbook in schoolhouses. Look how far we've come. I so wish I could talk to fundies about their methods, but I don't know how I would go about getting them into the same room and telling them to quit being so aggressive and attacking, and allow people to make their choices and simply distance themselves from that choice, and not have any part in it. You can say "I don't agree", but don't go beyond that.

Laws against prostitution based soley upon Christian values. There are still cities in this country where selling alcohol or selling things in a pawn shop on sunday is illegal. Based on Christian values.

I live in a small town, and liquor is not allowed to be sold on sunday, only beer. It's a choice the town has made. It's an old, out-dated law, and it's on my "too-do" list of things to bring up when I go to the city council meeting and hopefully get a chance to get the floor and voice my concerns to those in attendance and those on the council.

Prostitution is not only a christian value, it's also a secular, women's rights value. Since it is 90% women who are prostitutes.. it degrades women.

The Boy Scouts of America a Bigoted Religous Militant Group thinking that it is entitled to public resources while practicing bigotry. The demanding that the Holliday season celebrated by three or four religions be known only as Christmas.

I was in boy scouts, and never heard a peep of religious references. I learned how to tie knots, the scouts honor (which didn't mention God), I went on nature walks, did many arts and crafts.. I'm curious as to where you got this opinion from. I went all the way through cub scouts, webelos, and got the arrow of light... which is pretty high stature LOL.

Sorry Becka, but fundamentalists are not (let bygones be bygones) They dispise all other religions, they dispise all other Gods, Heck they even dispise other Christians who do not believe as they do. And you think that my showing love to them will change them. That is like saying if I pat a rabbid killer pit bull on it's head it wont rip my arm off at the socket and tear my throat out. That is not an experiment that I would be willing to try.

I think humans and dogs have different reasoning abilities. I also think we both share the same frustration with fundies who act this way.

Let me give you one of Jesus's teachings that I happen to believe in. (As you would have others do unto you, so do unto others) simple stuff. If the Fundamentalists wish to dispise all other religions, if they wish to dispise all other Gods. If they wish to dispise all people who do not believe as they do. Well they must be wanting the same to be done to them.

If that command were on it's own, I'd agree. But there are many other commandments by Jesus, especially the 1st commandment... given straight from the horse's mouth to Moses on stone tablets.


Decka let me ask you something. Have you in your life in the United States come accross anyone. Who was not aware of Jesus Christ. Who was not aware of the Christian religion.

I have not come across someone who I have met and talked to about the subject who had NEVER heard of Jesus... but I have talked to MANY who had NO IDEA about what Jesus was all about.

Who did not atleast have a basic understanding of the Christian Religion.

Many do not have a basic understanding of the Christian Religion... I could probably go to the bar tonight (friday night) and find 15 people who don't have a "basic understanding" of the Christian Religion. Of course, my idea of a basic understanding is giving your life to God, putting him before your money, your car, your job, and your family. In today's material society, that sounds outrageous to most.

I have yet to meet a Atheist who was not atleast as knowlegeable in the bible as most Christians. I have meet Atheists that could quote the bible from memory.

As have I. I have met many pleasant athiests who were friendly, kind, and just chose to believe NOT to believe. And I of course respected that notion. I have met athiests who reject authority of any kind, will go out of their way to say "fuck you", and try to goad me into getting mad by saying "hey God boy.. 666!"... Did I blast them? no. Did I ignore them? no. I approached them, shook their hand, asked how they were, and had a conversation. I said I happened to believe (I was wearing a T-shirt with Jesus on it, which was what started the whole confrontation), and I actually turned what could have been an unpleasant altercation into something that we both came away with a good feeling from. Did I shove Jesus down their throat? of course not, he was with his friends, and I just wanted to show him kindness and friendship. We talked about music, agreed that Nine Inch Nails kicked ass, I said that I was a believer but those were just my beliefs. He was actually taken back by it and said so because normally "God boys" tell him how wrong he is. I chalk that up as a good moment. He may look back on that occasion someday, and say "hey, that one guy who had the Jesus shirt on.. he seemed pretty cool..."... or maybe he doesn't even remember me. Either way is fine.

I have written a book on the bible showing the contradictions and inconsistencies, the misuse of prophecy and false use of prophecy. Jesus gave the great commandment to go forth and spread the word. Dont you think that in America the word has already been spread to the point that Golloshes might be needed. Have you ever met a person who had not heard of Jesus. Have you ever met a person who was not atleast familar with the Christian Religion and it's beliefs. I know I havent.

You are correct that in America, Christianity is well known. I have cited the fact that 70% of americans are christians multiple times in this thread. However, Most of them are perverted forms of christianity. Capitalism and Christianity are a tough mix. A CEO may claim he is a christian, but he sure as hell ain't giving up his billions in stock options. America's material society makes christianity look so unappealing... Being a Christian in today's youth modern culture is pretty much as outcast as you can get.

There is a verse in the bible that I am kinda fond of. It goes something like this. (Tell me of your Faith without works. I will show you my Faith by my works) or something like that. A man can go through his entire life showing his Faith in Jesus/God through his works. He never even has to open his mouth to say the name Jesus. You say you try to show your Faith through the loving, caring and respect you show to others even those that may tick you off. (I do not include myself in that group though, LOL) And that is what a Christ like person is supposed to do. Though the very foundation of Christianity is the dispising of other beliefs, Gods and people. You do not come accross as being a person who would actually dispise another.

I think you are caught up on the notion that God wants christians to go out and bash other Gods. I would say that is not true, based on the commandment you gave earlier in the thread.. treat others as you would want to be treated. It all comes down to respect, and spreading the message in a healthy way. Some Christians DO despise others who don't agree with them, and I don't agree with their message.

I'll sum it up like this. God DID say to spread his word, and those like Paul did so. Go and read the book of acts. Did he force the word down other's throat? He preached in the jewish temple with respect and kindness. Then he was put on trial by the Jews in front of almost every Roman territorial leader. You can spread the word and not be so cold about it. I can say I believe something and still not say that whatever you believe is complete BS.

As for Good works, they come from the inside. Good works don't get you into heaven, but when you are filled with the holy spirit, and have a good relationship with God, you can't help but WANT to do good works.

While I reject the Christian God and the Christian religion as being valid except as personal and individual I do hold great respect for the public teachings of Jesus.

Every time I go and read the parables of Jesus, it is such an uplifting reading experience. I think even if you are a non-believer, it is great literature.

Though I think Budda had far better life teachings.

While I didn't read his entire library, I read of his amazing experiences, and those two are great reading material

Anyone who follows the public teachings of Jesus in regards to living life is doing good. The O/T and the Teachings of the Apostles can be thrown out the window. But Jesus's public teachings concerning how one should live their lives are good teachings.

I disagree there, but that is a whole other bag of apples. I think I could write a 200 page thesis paper on that LOL.



Take Care Decka and may your God Bless and be With You Always.
[/QUOTE]
Thank you for your kindess, God bless you as well

I was in boy scouts, and never heard a peep of religious references. I learned how to tie knots, the scouts honor (which didn't mention God), I went on nature walks, did many arts and crafts.. I'm curious as to where you got this opinion from....I went all the way through cub scouts, webelos, and got the arrow of light...

Huuuuh?!?!?

I was in the Boy Scouts also.

If you say that --"I never heard a peep of religious references"-- while you were in the Webelos or Boy Scouts, you're either a liar or someone who has little memory of the Scouts.

Religious references and influence are very evident in Scouting.

In point of fact, you could not have gone through the Arrow of Light ceremony if you "never heard a religious reference".

Huuuuh?!?!?

I was in the Boy Scouts also.

If you say that --"I never heard a peep of religious references"-- while you were in the Webelos or Boy Scouts, you're either a liar or someone who has little memory of the Scouts.

Religious references and influence are very evident in Scouting.

In point of fact, you could not have gone through the Arrow of Light ceremony if you "never heard a religious reference".

it wouldn't be the 1st time that you saw things that the rest of us mortals didn't catch. :rolleyes:

why don't you enlighten me on these holy, divine ceremonies that boy scouts go through FT.. because I sure don't remember them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiredbeyondbeli
Decka it is not about me being right. Whether my beliefs are right or wrong my beliefs do not affect anyone else. The same with Pagans, Wiccans, Wiches and all simular religions. Whether their beleifs are right or wrong their beliefs do not affect others. We do not claim to know the Universal Truths of God. To know the inner secrets of God. We simply believe what we beleive.


I'd say all have their respectful members and all have their disrespectful members. I've seen Wiccans and Pagans tell me I'm stupid and "fucked" for believing in God, just like you've heard christian fundies say the same thing. It casts a bad name on the entire religion... regardless of which one it is.

Decka but have any of them told you that you are damned to eternal torment and damnation because you do not believe as they do? I will guarentee they have heard it from Christians. Have you had wiccan or pagan family members shun you like a plague victim because your a Christian. The odds are they have had their Christian Family members shun them for being wiccan or pagan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiredbeyondbeli
Though you atleast acknowledge someones right to reject your God the very basis of your belief dispises all other beliefs. What difference does it make If you preach that this Only Living God of yours is the only way to eternal life. And simply telling someone that their God is false their religions are false, their Faith is False and that they will suffer eternal damnation. There is no difference.


You are right that Christianity is grounded in the belief that you must believe in Jesus's God, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit. I am strictly praying to the Christian God. Do I absolutely neglect Taoist, Hindu, and Buddhist Gods? I don't pray to them, but I don't say they should be cancelled and exterminated. After studying them, I don't see any of the other religions encouraging it's members to go and pray to the Christian God either... All religions have their own belief, which is why you pray to that religion's God. As basic as it is, you seem to want to denounce christinaity because it's beliefs are that it's God is the correct one. ALL believe that. And, might I add, multiple religions center their prayer towards the Christian God - Islam, Judaism, and Christianity.... I'm not trying to PROVE that "my God is right" with that statement, but it IS a statement of fact.

Decka I do not accuse you of anything. You appear to be a true Jesus follower. And I have no problem with your beliefs as they apply to you. But the Doctrine of Christianity is that all Gods, beliefs and followers of those God and beliefs are sinners and evil and are damned to eternal torment It is not about how You apply to those beliefs to you it is the fact that those beliefs are acknowledged as being God given that people have a problem with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiredbeyondbeli
You can be as nice as you want to be. The result is the same you are dispising their beleifs. And yet you have no more proof to support your beliefs then they have for their beliefs. In fact when you take into account the contradictions and inconsistancies contained in the bible the misuse and false claims of prophecy. And actual Christian History showing very little in common with the public teachings of Jesus. You probably have less evidence then they do. But as I said atleast you acknowledge someones right to reject your God.

I do respect someone's choice to reject my God. That is the key word, respect (cited: Aretha Franklin). How can I "despise" someone's belief's when I respect their choice to reject? Personally, I simply tell them my message and show them kindness, humility, and compassion. It's not up to me to judge their beliefs.. it's up to God. So no, i personally don't judge their beliefs, I just choose not to believe them, as they have chosen not to believe in mine.

Forgive me for not clarifying. It is not you or how you apply those beliefs. It is simply the nature of those beleifs. You many not dispise other peoples beliefs but the Doctine of Christianity does dispise other peoples beliefs and does not recognize their free will in rejecting their God and His religion. I should have clarified that, sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiredbeyondbeli
Fundamentists do not have the same moral fiber that you have. (In God We Trust) on money or (Under God) in the pledge of alligiance dispises all other beliefs. Attempting to deny Homosexuals basic human rights. Trying to influence the science and medical fields by imposing their moral codes upon those who do not accept those codes. I drove thru texas a couple of months ago and actually found dry counties where no alcohol could be sold.

I agree that if America is going to be a secular nation, Christian values can't be imposed on it's citizens. however, I think having "in God we Trust" on money isn't forcing anyone to do anything, it's more of a traditional, historical symbol of our culture. Back in the 1800's, the bible was a textbook in schoolhouses. Look how far we've come. I so wish I could talk to fundies about their methods, but I don't know how I would go about getting them into the same room and telling them to quit being so aggressive and attacking, and allow people to make their choices and simply distance themselves from that choice, and not have any part in it. You can say "I don't agree", but don't go beyond that.

I agree on all points and very well put. Though with the (in God we Trust) or (under God) refers specifically to the Christian God Jesus and have only been in existence since the 60's. It is not a general reference to God or Gods. This in turn dispises all other beliefs. I agree with you concerning Fundamentalist the average Jesus follower even if they wanted to could not bring them into check. Unfortunately the enemies they create do not differentiate between Jesus followers and Fundamentalists. I cannot challenge their beliefs without also challenging the beliefs of the Jesus followers. Sorry but the Jesus followers are caught in the middle. Oh and by the way America is not going to become a secular Nation. It was established as a secular Nation


Quote:
Originally Posted by tiredbeyondbeli
Laws against prostitution based soley upon Christian values. There are still cities in this country where selling alcohol or selling things in a pawn shop on sunday is illegal. Based on Christian values.

I live in a small town, and liquor is not allowed to be sold on sunday, only beer. It's a choice the town has made. It's an old, out-dated law, and it's on my "too-do" list of things to bring up when I go to the city council meeting and hopefully get a chance to get the floor and voice my concerns to those in attendance and those on the council.

As I said you are a true Jesus Follower. Trust me I wish that alcohol had never been created in the first place. But religions cannot deny another persons free will in drinking it.


Prostitution is not only a christian value, it's also a secular, women's rights value. Since it is 90% women who are prostitutes.. it degrades women.

Decka, Free Will if prostitution was Legal and controlled and safe guards were intalled prostitution could be cleaned up. But in the end if a women has to sell her body to eat, Laws for or against prostitution will not change that fact. The only thing that making it illegal does is remove any safe guards or protections for the women. She is a walking victim because of these laws

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiredbeyondbeli
The Boy Scouts of America a Bigoted Religous Militant Group thinking that it is entitled to public resources while practicing bigotry. The demanding that the Holliday season celebrated by three or four religions be known only as Christmas.

I was in boy scouts, and never heard a peep of religious references. I learned how to tie knots, the scouts honor (which didn't mention God), I went on nature walks, did many arts and crafts.. I'm curious as to where you got this opinion from. I went all the way through cub scouts, webelos, and got the arrow of light... which is pretty high stature LOL.

I was in the cub scouts. And had to acknowledge the Christian God. My Dad was a troop leader the acknowlegment was a requirement. Your scout leader may have been a closet Atheist, But the Boy Scouts of America requires the acknowledgement of the Christian God

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiredbeyondbeli
Sorry Becka, but fundamentalists are not (let bygones be bygones) They dispise all other religions, they dispise all other Gods, Heck they even dispise other Christians who do not believe as they do. And you think that my showing love to them will change them. That is like saying if I pat a rabbid killer pit bull on it's head it wont rip my arm off at the socket and tear my throat out. That is not an experiment that I would be willing to try.

I think humans and dogs have different reasoning abilities. I also think we both share the same frustration with fundies who act this way.

People with Attack personalities are no differnt then Attack dogs. A few Homosexuals/Transgenders could attest to that if they were still alive that is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiredbeyondbeli
Let me give you one of Jesus's teachings that I happen to believe in. (As you would have others do unto you, so do unto others) simple stuff. If the Fundamentalists wish to dispise all other religions, if they wish to dispise all other Gods. If they wish to dispise all people who do not believe as they do. Well they must be wanting the same to be done to them.

If that command were on it's own, I'd agree. But there are many other commandments by Jesus, especially the 1st commandment... given straight from the horse's mouth to Moses on stone tablets.

If the commandments had been followed the witch hunts, crusades, mass slaughter of Christians, Inca's, Myans, ect would not have occured.

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Originally Posted by tiredbeyondbeli
Decka let me ask you something. Have you in your life in the United States come accross anyone. Who was not aware of Jesus Christ. Who was not aware of the Christian religion.


I have not come across someone who I have met and talked to about the subject who had NEVER heard of Jesus... but I have talked to MANY who had NO IDEA about what Jesus was all about.

And after you talked to them and told them what Jesus was about. And then a Jehova Witness talked to them and told them what Jesus was all about. And then a Baptist, and then a Lutheren, And then so on and so on. Would they have any clearer idea what Jesus was about

This post will probably be to long if I handle it all at once so I will break it into two parts. Take Care

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Originally Posted by tiredbeyondbeli
Who did not atleast have a basic understanding of the Christian Religion.

Many do not have a basic understanding of the Christian Religion... I could probably go to the bar tonight (friday night) and find 15 people who don't have a "basic understanding" of the Christian Religion. Of course, my idea of a basic understanding is giving your life to God, putting him before your money, your car, your job, and your family. In today's material society, that sounds outrageous to most.

Actually the basic understanding of Jesus that I have is that the most important thing that concerned him was in how one person treats another person. All else was secondary. But I only paid attention to His public teachings and ignored the mumbo jumbo stuff to the Chrisitans.

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Originally Posted by tiredbeyondbeli
I have yet to meet a Atheist who was not atleast as knowlegeable in the bible as most Christians. I have meet Atheists that could quote the bible from memory.


As have I. I have met many pleasant athiests who were friendly, kind, and just chose to believe NOT to believe. And I of course respected that notion. I have met athiests who reject authority of any kind, will go out of their way to say "fuck you", and try to goad me into getting mad by saying "hey God boy.. 666!"... Did I blast them? no. Did I ignore them? no. I approached them, shook their hand, asked how they were, and had a conversation. I said I happened to believe (I was wearing a T-shirt with Jesus on it, which was what started the whole confrontation), and I actually turned what could have been an unpleasant altercation into something that we both came away with a good feeling from. Did I shove Jesus down their throat? of course not, he was with his friends, and I just wanted to show him kindness and friendship. We talked about music, agreed that Nine Inch Nails kicked ass, I said that I was a believer but those were just my beliefs. He was actually taken back by it and said so because normally "God boys" tell him how wrong he is. I chalk that up as a good moment. He may look back on that occasion someday, and say "hey, that one guy who had the Jesus shirt on.. he seemed pretty cool..."... or maybe he doesn't even remember me. Either way is fine.

But his initial reaction to you was probably based on prior experiences with Fundamentalists. You have to remember your God does not provide Tshirts that say. True Jesus Follower, or This person is an arse and does not speak for me. To many people the word Jesus is a profanity based upon Fundamentalist actions. You were able to show the Atheist what a true Jesus Follower was like. Hopefully he will not initiate attacks in the future but simply react to the Attacks of the Fundamentalists but leave the Jesus followers alone.

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Originally Posted by tiredbeyondbeli
I have written a book on the bible showing the contradictions and inconsistencies, the misuse of prophecy and false use of prophecy. Jesus gave the great commandment to go forth and spread the word. Dont you think that in America the word has already been spread to the point that Golloshes might be needed. Have you ever met a person who had not heard of Jesus. Have you ever met a person who was not atleast familar with the Christian Religion and it's beliefs. I know I havent.

You are correct that in America, Christianity is well known. I have cited the fact that 70% of americans are christians multiple times in this thread. However, Most of them are perverted forms of christianity. Capitalism and Christianity are a tough mix. A CEO may claim he is a christian, but he sure as hell ain't giving up his billions in stock options. America's material society makes christianity look so unappealing... Being a Christian in today's youth modern culture is pretty much as outcast as you can get.

And it is the Fundamentalists who are responsible for that. The Fundamentalists paint the whole of Christianity with the same brush as I said earlier. If your God cannot bring his False Followers into check then the whole of Christianity will be looked at as if they are themselves Fundamentalists.

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Originally Posted by tiredbeyondbeli
There is a verse in the bible that I am kinda fond of. It goes something like this. (Tell me of your Faith without works. I will show you my Faith by my works) or something like that. A man can go through his entire life showing his Faith in Jesus/God through his works. He never even has to open his mouth to say the name Jesus. You say you try to show your Faith through the loving, caring and respect you show to others even those that may tick you off. (I do not include myself in that group though, LOL) And that is what a Christ like person is supposed to do. Though the very foundation of Christianity is the dispising of oth