I mean in a one-on-one conversational situation, like the preacher coming to knock on people's doorstep. What do you say?

Sales people of commercial merchandise might be asked to demonstrate the product, which in most cases they will be able to do. In others they may bring you statistical reports. But when selling a religion? What do you say? You can bring a bible and say "according to", but then the person doesn't believe in the bible yet either, and it's not like it isn't obvious that a preacher of another religion can just barge in and pull out their scripture.

Tell them the bible is old so there must be some truth to it? But lots of writings are old...all those oriental religious/philosophical texts are old, the Greek philosophers' writings are old...etc. Heck who knows how old the native American spiritual beliefs are, these could be really old too.

So what can you do? Tell the person to do some logical reasoning to arrive at the logical conclusion that the religion you are selling makes sense? Problematic.

Maybe you resort to psychological pressure? Be nice and portray your god as very loving, and at the same time describe horrible consequences of not believing in him? Then you just may weasel your way out of "proofing" anything if you get the person emotionally affected enough that they jump in regardless of how sure they are about how right you are.

I don't know, it seems awfully difficult to me. I was thinking about this driving to work this morning. What do you say? How will you convert people?

I doubt very many people are "converted" based on a visit from someone. I'm not saying that this is impossible, just improbable.

Most "visitation" is done to invite someone to visit the services of a church. If, after visiting that church, and learning the practices that is being followed there, there is a possibility that the person may decide to join that religion.

I agree with OP. Visits from church members are more likely targeting people who are in trouble... hurting... in despair. It's an attempt to reach out and help those in need... not necessarily convert them. "Help" from the church may range from paying somebody's rent to a simple offer to pray with them.

Yes, some churches believe one must belong to their church in order to receive salvation, but most don't. We all know about Jehovah's Witnesses and their Watchtower materials. They're the only church I know of who actively try to recruit members and they only do so because their church's doctrine says they should. Like OP said, the purpose of most home visits is to extend an invitation to attend services.

I've personally never met anyone who made it their mission to 'convert' nonbelievers. And I'm not sure such a thing is even possible. Faith comes from the heart... not the head.

:)
SMW

Most fundamentalists do feel it's their duty to "save" the unconverted

With me it was just a matter of us becoming friends , then the invites to the meetings which lead to discussion .

I suppose the desire to "fit in" lead to my eventual conversion .

-Since leaving (not renouncing )the the Church ...which shall remain unnamed I still maintain good relations with them .

Not a fundys are fanatics who feel that they have the only truth

People are converted more by how you act than by what you say. Be attentive, kind, inviting and answer their questions about your religion. Don't beat them over the head with it.

Most fundamentalists do feel it's their duty to "save" the unconverted

With me it was just a matter of us becoming friends , then the invites to the meetings which lead to discussion .

I suppose the desire to "fit in" lead to my eventual conversion .

-Since leaving (not renouncing )the the Church ...which shall remain unnamed I still maintain good relations with them .

Not a fundys are fanatics who feel that they have the only truth

I'm sure you're right. And that's the main reason I've never been interested in becoming involved with the 'fundys'.

;)
SMW

I mean in a one-on-one conversational situation, like the preacher coming to knock on people's doorstep. What do you say?

Sales people of commercial merchandise might be asked to demonstrate the product, which in most cases they will be able to do. In others they may bring you statistical reports. But when selling a religion? What do you say? You can bring a bible and say "according to", but then the person doesn't believe in the bible yet either, and it's not like it isn't obvious that a preacher of another religion can just barge in and pull out their scripture.

Tell them the bible is old so there must be some truth to it? But lots of writings are old...all those oriental religious/philosophical texts are old, the Greek philosophers' writings are old...etc. Heck who knows how old the native American spiritual beliefs are, these could be really old too.

So what can you do? Tell the person to do some logical reasoning to arrive at the logical conclusion that the religion you are selling makes sense? Problematic.

Maybe you resort to psychological pressure? Be nice and portray your god as very loving, and at the same time describe horrible consequences of not believing in him? Then you just may weasel your way out of "proofing" anything if you get the person emotionally affected enough that they jump in regardless of how sure they are about how right you are.

I don't know, it seems awfully difficult to me. I was thinking about this driving to work this morning. What do you say? How will you convert people?

THE Most effective means of Converting is not Proselytzing at all.
It's what Charities like Mother Teresa Do.They demonstrate the GOOD
works that Humans do for others.Mother Teresa did not Convert.
She was a true Saint.She lived to Help,and especially those who
needed Help.In fact,those No one else would even wanna look at.
Kinda like John Merrick or - The Elephant Man -.A truly graceful and
intelligently soft man,forced to endure what life had born him.
It's rather hard to convert another,if life is wonderfully nice and
cushy.No Trial or tribulations to conquer.But those folk are also
weakened by their inability to comprehend the true harsh realities of a
world where many suffer,go hungry { Not in this country } and
constantly struggle,just to eek out a mere meager existence.

I don't think it's possible for a Paris Hilton type to Convert.
Eventually maybe.Eventually her comfort bubble will burst and she'll
have to face what most every human does.The Inevitability of Life.
That ALL Humans will Die.Some may go easy and w/o much discomfort.
Religion is that comfort zone that helps us deal that inevitability.
No one gets out of life alive.
Sadfully,too many folk don't comprehend the good a Religion does to
help put life and our tribulations into proper context.
Religion may well be THE Best Medicine On Earth.

I've had people come up to me and try to sell me on their religion as if it were a car. "Our religion comes with this, this, and this... act now before it's to late!"
"Other religions cant offer you what we can offer you." You know, crap like that. I just laugh inside and move on. It takes a lot more than that to move me.

the majority of religious faiths that see they must convert other people are based on a few things.
fear
guilt
blame
shame.
whether the threat of going to hell. making you feel guilty and shameful for being a "bad" person, and something or someone (whether a diety) must be to blame.
this can follow either directly, or by coersion.
SUBMIT! is the basic line of these religions. i will not submit to no one, or anything.
my beliefs are that we are all on a level playing field spiritually. there is nothing above me, or below me. i am equal to the "lowly" dirt under my feet, as well as "god". but because i am human and in this body, my sight and understanding is limited. and upon my death i WILL be truely free. because i refuse to live in fear. i will do my best to die fearless.

I've had people come up to me and try to sell me on their religion as if it were a car. "Our religion comes with this, this, and this... act now before it's to late!"
"Other religions cant offer you what we can offer you." You know, crap like that. I just laugh inside and move on. It takes a lot more than that to move me.


right on. sadly the majority of religions sound more and more like fucking infomercials now.

the majority of religious faiths that see they must convert other people are based on a few things.
fear
guilt
blame
shame.
whether the threat of going to hell. making you feel guilty and shameful for being a "bad" person, and something or someone (whether a diety) must be to blame.
this can follow either directly, or by coersion.
SUBMIT! is the basic line of these religions. i will not submit to no one, or anything.
my beliefs are that we are all on a level playing field spiritually. there is nothing above me, or below me. i am equal to the "lowly" dirt under my feet, as well as "god". but because i am human and in this body, my sight and understanding is limited. and upon my death i WILL be truely free. because i refuse to live in fear. i will do my best to die fearless.


What Human does not have Fears.? Or occassional guilt,shame etc.
Those are normal reactions to normal living.
Good defense mechanisms.People who have No Fear or shame,
usually spend the rest of their Life in Jail or an Institution.
Without religion or a belief system,where GoD is a Supernatural
being,Man is left to tread water at entirely his own Risk.
Having Faith in God helps to relieve this treading of water.
It's better to believe in a Good Power and act Positively than
merely random Nothingness.
Nothingness solves Nothing and Helps Nothing.
Life IS Psychological,ya'nose.

It's kinda strange to me that several people seem to have been 'solicited' to join religious groups when I've lived longer than most around here and can't remember EVER having had someone come up to me and try to convert me to their religion. Not counting the JW's... since I used to live across the street from their church, had several visits from them, but they were easily enough turned away. I've just never experienced anything close to 'pressure' from a religious group. Makes me wonder if some of y'all oughta study the messages you're sending out? Seems to be a clamor to save you!

;)
SMW

What Human does not have Fears.? Or occassional guilt,shame etc.
Those are normal reactions to normal living.
Good defense mechanisms.People who have No Fear or shame,
usually spend the rest of their Life in Jail or an Institution.
Without religion or a belief system,where GoD is a Supernatural
being,Man is left to tread water at entirely his own Risk.
Having Faith in God helps to relieve this treading of water.
It's better to believe in a Good Power and act Positively than
merely random Nothingness.
Nothingness solves Nothing and Helps Nothing.
Life IS Psychological,ya'nose.

and you sir, are thinking in a way that can be seen as coersion. try to make me feel bad. what makes you think i am evil? and need to submit? i follow my own life path. helping people, the earth, sharing, and loving. everything i do is for the love of the earth, life, and my fellow creatures on this planet. even if that conclusion means breaking a few eggs to make the omlette.

and you sir, are thinking in a way that can be seen as coersion. try to make me feel bad. what makes you think i am evil? and need to submit? i follow my own life path. helping people, the earth, sharing, and loving. everything i do is for the love of the earth, life, and my fellow creatures on this planet. even if that conclusion means breaking a few eggs to make the omlette.

'try to make me feel bad'

Just wondering why you felt like Fool was trying to make you feel bad in his post? Pretty clear to me he was referring to the 'whole human race.'

Methinks thou doth protest too much, sir.

;)
SMW

"No one can get your goat if you don't show everyone where you keep it tied up."

Examples of real Christian behavior is more likely to convert people than mere words.

my beliefs are that we are all on a level playing field spiritually. there is nothing above me, or below me. i am equal to the "lowly" dirt under my feet, as well as "god"... i follow my own life path. helping people, the earth...

Sounds like you and I go to the same "church," PM.

Yesterday morning, tracks in the snow showed that a deer (must've been HUGE; maybe an elk?) came by for "midnight mass," and partook of the holy dwarf Braeburn apple tree. This morning I see that a couple of bunnies stopped to pray at the altar of the miraculous ever-growing snapdragons (their fourth winter, still going strong) that grow between the house and shop. Everything is draped in pure white.


Best. RELIGION. EVAR!! :)

and you sir, are thinking in a way that can be seen as coersion. try to make me feel bad. what makes you think i am evil? and need to submit? i follow my own life path. helping people, the earth, sharing, and loving. everything i do is for the love of the earth, life, and my fellow creatures on this planet. even if that conclusion means breaking a few eggs to make the omlette.

Growing up as a Child of the 50's I Literally knew NO Family that
hadn't a religion.Most our Freinds were fellow Catholics.
But No one was eve w/o a Faith.
I just don't understand how a responsible parent could rear kids
with No basis in Life.
Life has to have meaning BEYOND the Here & Now.
That's just pure silliness.
What is one supposed to take from a Funeral.
Oh well,no Biggy.He {or She} Lived and Died.
Let's just go back to worrying about ourself.
Or,what the hay,why even Worry ourselves.

-- what ME worry ! --
is Just MAD.

Growing up as a Child of the 50's I Literally knew NO Family that
hadn't a religion.Most our Freinds were fellow Catholics.
But No one was eve w/o a Faith.
I just don't understand how a responsible parent could rear kids
with No basis in Life.
Life has to have meaning BEYOND the Here & Now.
That's just pure silliness.
What is one supposed to take from a Funeral.
Oh well,no Biggy.He {or She} Lived and Died.
Let's just go back to worrying about ourself.
Or,what the hay,why even Worry ourselves.

-- what ME worry ! --
is Just MAD.

Don't you get it, Fool? The REALLY important things in life are cute little bunnies and pretty little flowers. And nobody should worry about how they got here in the first place... just take them for granted, same as they do human life.

I think it's called the Church of One's Self. Just a mass of cells all thrown together by the big bang and BINGO... life exists!! Why question the miracle of how the eyes work or why some children can play classical piano at age two or why billions of people worldwide believe in some kind of Supreme Being.

Life is much simpler when one just follows around the little critters, eh?

;)
SMW

My parents raised me without a religion so that I could choose for myself later. They knew that I would obviously be biased towards the faith of my childhood if I were raised in one. My parents have always talked to me about god and basically implied that they believe in some deity/deities. I fail to see how that has damaged me in any way.

Don't you get it, Fool? The REALLY important things in life are cute little bunnies and pretty little flowers. And nobody should worry about how they got here in the first place... just take them for granted, same as they do human life.

I think it's called the Church of One's Self. Just a mass of cells all thrown together by the big bang and BINGO... life exists!! Why question the miracle of how the eyes work or why some children can play classical piano at age two or why billions of people worldwide believe in some kind of Supreme Being.

Life is much simpler when one just follows around the little critters, eh?

;)
SMW

I knew eventually there'd come a day when i wood say.
Hmm,I guess I got the gist of dat.
Butts,juts in case,would you please translate.

My parents raised me without a religion so that I could choose for myself later. They knew that I would obviously be biased towards the faith of my childhood if I were raised in one. My parents have always talked to me about god and basically implied that they believe in some deity/deities. I fail to see how that has damaged me in any way.

Because it's a sin of Ommission.
Like a Father who constantly brags about tellin the Family,after seein
a commercial on TV,showcasing how the Circus is coming to town,
" Hay,where gonna go this time.I Promise. " And each time the
Circus comes to town,the Father goes thru the same spiel.
But never truly bothers to fullfill his end of the bargain.
Or when a Gay couple INSIST they'd make just as good parents
as a Father and a Mother.
Every Child SHOULD have a birthright to BOTH a Mother and a Father.
There are things that each Gender brings differently into Life.

I knew eventually there'd come a day when i wood say.
Hmm,I guess I got the gist of dat.
Butts,juts in case,would you please translate.

Sorry, Fool... this is the exchange I had in mind with that post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by primitive man
my beliefs are that we are all on a level playing field spiritually. there is nothing above me, or below me. i am equal to the "lowly" dirt under my feet, as well as "god"... i follow my own life path. helping people, the earth...

Quote: Originally Posted by Frannie
Sounds like you and I go to the same "church," PM.

Yesterday morning, tracks in the snow showed that a deer (must've been HUGE; maybe an elk?) came by for "midnight mass," and partook of the holy dwarf Braeburn apple tree. This morning I see that a couple of bunnies stopped to pray at the altar of the miraculous ever-growing snapdragons (their fourth winter, still going strong) that grow between the house and shop. Everything is draped in pure white.


Best. RELIGION. EVAR!!

Originally Posted by smartmouthwoman
Don't you get it, Fool? The REALLY important things in life are cute little bunnies and pretty little flowers. And nobody should worry about how they got here in the first place... just take them for granted, same as they do human life.

I think it's called the Church of One's Self. Just a mass of cells all thrown together by the big bang and BINGO... life exists!! Why question the miracle of how the eyes work or why some children can play classical piano at age two or why billions of people worldwide believe in some kind of Supreme Being.

Life is much simpler when one just follows around the little critters, eh?

SMW

[QUOTE=smartmouthwoman]Sorry, Fool... this is the exchange I had in mind with that post.




Ugh.More highlighted Paragraphs.
I usually don't read em.
I'm funny dat way.

Growing up as a Child of the 50's I Literally knew NO Family that
hadn't a religion.Most our Freinds were fellow Catholics.
But No one was eve w/o a Faith.
I just don't understand how a responsible parent could rear kids
with No basis in Life.
Life has to have meaning BEYOND the Here & Now.
That's just pure silliness.
What is one supposed to take from a Funeral.
Oh well,no Biggy.He {or She} Lived and Died.
Let's just go back to worrying about ourself.
Or,what the hay,why even Worry ourselves.

-- what ME worry ! --
is Just MAD.



well foolsworth,

being a child of the 50's a statement that gives me a cleaer definition of your mindset.
the 1950's saw the advent of MASS consumption. and this insanity right after two world wars can make people insane. climb, scratch, the fear of war with more bombs, more money to make the bombs, the fear to need them, the fear of the great depression still hanging in the air.
people lose contection with themselves and how they interconnect with life itself.
some say it is bad for me to eat fluffy bunny. but nature is what i am. i do it with respect. not over use. or abuse to make a dollar.
some say we should be vegetabletarians, but they will support and abuse other "undeveloped nations" for trade to get cheap produce.
i could go on and on, but won't.
lie me in the valley of "death" for i shall fear no evil.
you have god IN you. and the power of god, and the knowledge of god, and if you fail to protect what you were told to protect in your creation stories, your god failed. or you just didn't know it, and went insane.
my spirit burns and there is no death.
only a change of worlds.
you cannot harm me, you can not harm one who has dreamed a dream like mine.

I mean in a one-on-one conversational situation, like the preacher coming to knock on people's doorstep. What do you say?

Sales people of commercial merchandise might be asked to demonstrate the product, which in most cases they will be able to do. In others they may bring you statistical reports. But when selling a religion? What do you say? You can bring a bible and say "according to", but then the person doesn't believe in the bible yet either, and it's not like it isn't obvious that a preacher of another religion can just barge in and pull out their scripture.

Tell them the bible is old so there must be some truth to it? But lots of writings are old...all those oriental religious/philosophical texts are old, the Greek philosophers' writings are old...etc. Heck who knows how old the native American spiritual beliefs are, these could be really old too.

So what can you do? Tell the person to do some logical reasoning to arrive at the logical conclusion that the religion you are selling makes sense? Problematic.

Maybe you resort to psychological pressure? Be nice and portray your god as very loving, and at the same time describe horrible consequences of not believing in him? Then you just may weasel your way out of "proofing" anything if you get the person emotionally affected enough that they jump in regardless of how sure they are about how right you are.

I don't know, it seems awfully difficult to me. I was thinking about this driving to work this morning. What do you say? How will you convert people?

I wanted to address the original question that Dio supplied, and a good one I might add. AND, I feel it's good for different reasons than you might think.

I can only speak on behalf of my interpretation of christianity, and a newer, less strict, more loving, more accepting, compassionate and kind "version" or "sect" of Christianity.. whatever you want to call it. Even though Christians are all called Christians, you will see the complete opposite of personalities and acceptingness up and down the board.

So how do I convert someone? My answer is.. I don't. There is the parable of the mustard seed, which Jesus told, saying that this seed is so small when planted, but yet grows to become one of the largest plants. Now Dio said someone may not believe in the bible and throw it right out, but I wouldn't share that parable with this "person", we'll call him John. If I wished to witness to John, I would respectfully LISTEN. I would ask how he was doing, and if you ask the right questions you can get to know where people are in their lives. I know I love "getting it all out" and telling someone how I feel. People want to be heard.

So John has let it all out, saying he doesn't believe in religion, he doesn't believe in the bible, and just doesn't believe. I would respect his beliefs, and tell him what God means to me, what he has done in my life, and tell him about Jesus dying for our sins. I would plant a seed. Then, as I always had before if I knew him, or would begin to do if I just met him, I would be there for him in times of need. I would be kind to him, respect him, love him. If we went to the bar, I'd buy him a sandwich and a drink if he didn't have money. If he didn't have a coat, I'd buy him one. If he had tons of cash, I'd try to explain how material things aren't as important as they are lead on to be in today's society.

Let's say me and John are tight for 3 months and he moves away. I might not have "converted him".. so to say, but I planted a seed. I let him know the christian message, and I felt compelled to help him in any way I could, or compelled to have him help others who were in need in any way HE could. He might still reject it for years.. but one day, he might remember those 3 months. Maybe 10 years later.. and say "hey, that Decka guy was really nice to me. I thought he was just a cornball when I knew him, but he was THERE for me, and he was talking about this Jesus guy... " and that's where the mustard seed grows.

It's really up to John. It's someone's own personal journey to find God, and then give your life up to him. Tell him to use you for whatever he wishes. I still have SO much more to learn and am such a small toddler as the potential I have of being a christian. I so dislike the method some Christians have taken as to insult those who don't believe what they do. It goes against everything a Christian should be, which is loving, respectful, kind, and accepting.

I think today's egoistic society has caused Christians to want to "claim dibs" on someone's conversion to Christ. It's almost like a used car salesman. Get over yourself. Teach the word, and then get out of the way. Set an example, but don't be a square. Let someone develop and go their own path. You have done all you can in telling someone what you believe. You can't force someone to God.

THAT... in a nutshell... is my answer. I didn't read the other posts, so perhaps something has already been mentioned, but I hope I provided an answer to your question Dio... at least from MY perspective. There are many others out there too, I may be wrong. I am always willing to admit that I could possibly be wrong.

I'm with you, Foolie. I don't know how a parent can raise a child without a basis if faith. There has to be more to life than ourselves.

There has to be more to life than ourselves.
Your baseless assertion aside, it's quite easy. Just don't feed them with feel-good bullshit mixed with scary moralizing, honestly answer questions regarding the adult world without going over their heads, and give them the same love and devotion you normally do, and kids turn out just fine, sans faith in supernatural deities. One does not need to take advantage of a child's impressionability and vulnerability to feed them shit they might have never accepted otherwise. Plenty of kids raised by atheists grow up to become theists. Most atheist parents react to this philosophically, though, rather than overreacting and sending the kids to the atheist equivalent of Jesus camp. (as if such a thing exists!)

Your baseless assertion aside, it's quite easy. Just don't feed them with feel-good bullshit mixed with scary moralizing, honestly answer questions regarding the adult world without going over their heads, and give them the same love and devotion you normally do, and kids turn out just fine, sans faith in supernatural deities. One does not need to take advantage of a child's impressionability and vulnerability to feed them shit they might have never accepted otherwise. Plenty of kids raised by atheists grow up to become theists. Most atheist parents react to this philosophically, though, rather than overreacting and sending the kids to the atheist equivalent of Jesus camp. (as if such a thing exists!)

Yer talking like Faith and Religion is some kinda Vile Porn site.
As if Faith in a Deity is a Negative and bad addiction.
Which means YOU don't get it Pal.
I'm done with yer type.
You're obviously not worthy of a higher calling.
That's what it's called...Pally.

Nappy is just illustrative of many atheist. Happily not all are like him. Just as there are religious fanatics there are atheist fanatics.

Praise be to.... nothing!

Nappy is just illustrative of many atheist. Happily not all are like him. Just as there are religious fanatics there are atheist fanatics.
Apparently I'm a fanatic for feeling the same way many Christians do. Lots of Christians don't feel the need to indoctrinate their child, I guess they're all atheist fanatics too.

Exposing children to religious values is not indoctrinating them.

Taking children to church with you on Sunday morning is not indoctrinating them.

Having children attend Sunday School is not indoctrinating them.

Saying grace before meals is not indoctrinating them.

Having religious values in the home is not indoctrinating them.


Were we to follow your suggestion we would hide our faith from our children so as not to indoctrinate them.

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purpsoses are modeled after our own-a God,in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism." Albert Einstein

Exposing children to religious values is not indoctrinating them.

Taking children to church with you on Sunday morning is not indoctrinating them.

Having children attend Sunday School is not indoctrinating them.

Saying grace before meals is not indoctrinating them.

Having religious values in the home is not indoctrinating them.


Were we to follow your suggestion we would hide our faith from our children so as not to indoctrinate them.
I would agree with you on most points except the Sunday School part, which is clear-cut indoctrination, but that's not the point. You stated that there's a moral problem with not doing all that for children. Apparently all the Christians that don't do all that crap are atheist fanatics. You made an SMW sized fuckup.

Plenty of Christian families don't say grace before meals, hold other values in the home besides religious ones, or don't impress upon their children that they are religious in nature, as the values themselves could be considered to be both. Lots of Christians don't go to church. Atheist fanatics, all!

Nappy is just illustrative of many atheist. Happily not all are like him. Just as there are religious fanatics there are atheist fanatics.

I've softened my stance on hate-mongering atheists, Frogger. Started looking at my friends and acquaintances and realized there are big differences between people who don't believe in God. Maybe even more so than Christians. I know quite a few atheists in real life, and not ONE of them is hateful or arrogant about their (dis)belief. Nor do they try to convince anyone who does believe how stupid they are.

The hate mongering is an online thing where atheists feel comfortable hiding behind their monitors and bashing God. Very few, if any, would be brave enough to stand up to a Christian and say the things they say here. Plus, there's safety in numbers, and they know there'll be another atheist to back them up, regardless of how far out of line they get. Angelina was a good example of that theory... until she went too far and even her atheist friends couldn't save her.

From now on, I'll refer to the cowardly nonbelievers as dot.com atheists. Online anti-preachers with more venom to spew than a thousand fundy Christians and a nice big monitor to hide behind to protect their identity.

Too bad those anti-glare screens can't hide them from God.

;)
SMW

To Waste,
ON .... Atheists

if i don't expose my kids to what i believe, then the only thing they will be exposed to will be christianity.
pray over food? sure , no problem. but what would some of those christians do if the kid prays out loud to something or someone else other than the jesus-god thing? some of those christians get upset. or worried they're kid is going to hell.
if a christian family does not expose their children to other thoughts, beliefs, etc., then what they DO IS indoctrination.

marizapan, yer damn right nature is the best faith their is. I SEE my beliefs right in front of my eyes. and it works perfectly. but man keeps mucking up the works, and is gonna get its ass kicked one day for its arrogance.

if i don't expose my kids to what i believe, then the only thing they will be exposed to will be christianity.
pray over food? sure , no problem. but what would some of those christians do if the kid prays out loud to something or someone else other than the jesus-god thing? some of those christians get upset. or worried they're kid is going to hell.
if a christian family does not expose their children to other thoughts, beliefs, etc., then what they DO IS indoctrination.

marizapan, yer damn right nature is the best faith their is. I SEE my beliefs right in front of my eyes. and it works perfectly. but man keeps mucking up the works, and is gonna get its ass kicked one day for its arrogance.

How wrong you are.
Buddhist Monks live a remote and reclusive life of a strict contemplative
nature.That doesn't stop others' { Communist China } from inflicting it's
Iron Yoke or You will or else.
No one gets out of life alive.
Maybe in an Oprah Winfrey Liberal Fairy Tale,written by her
simpleton,repeating Poet who knows it ... Maya Angelou.

Using your reasoning, Primitive Man, if you don't expose your children to Christianity but instead to your atheism you are indoctrinating them. You seem to have no problem with indoctrination if it is of what you believe yet you have a problem of indoctrination of other beliefs. Typical atheist convoluted thinking.

I believe nature is God, and God is nature. All that wonderful nature was given to me by God. I never feel closer to God than when I'm out in His nature enjoying His blessings. Very simple, really.

I believe nature is God, and God is nature. All that wonderful nature was given to me by God. I never feel closer to God than when I'm out in His nature enjoying His blessings. Very simple, really.

May I suggest some Thoreau.He had a wonderfull Philosophy that
was Huge on Nature.One of the Great Naturalist and heck of an
insightful writer.

May I suggest some Thoreau.He had a wonderfull Philosophy that
was Huge on Nature.One of the Great Naturalist and heck of an
insightful writer.

I know, Fool. I need to re-read Walden. First time I read it, changed my entire perspective.

How Do You Convert People?

Beat them severly about the head and shoulders until they succumb to your beliefs.

Over the years I've been approached by JW's, Mormons as well as a wide variety of fundamentalists all wanting to prove that theirs was the "right" faith. No thanks. I had enough of that while attending Catholic schools during the late 1950's through the mid-1960's. What they have in common is holding out their hands for the almighty Dollar - nothing more.

I'm sorry, Kimi but I've heard that, I'm closest to God when I'm fishing, or hiking, or lookig at a tree argument too many times. It is almost always offered by someone who is too lazy or not committed enough to get up on Sunday morning and go to church. It is okay to see God in nature but it is better to spend time with fellow worshipers, supporting each other and gathering strength in faith from each other.

Maybe you are different from most others and if so I apologize but I've heard it far too many times.

I'm sorry, Kimi but I've heard that, I'm closest to God when I'm fishing, or hiking, or lookig at a tree argument too many times. It is almost always offered by someone who is too lazy or not committed enough to get up on Sunday morning and go to church. It is okay to see God in nature but it is better to spend time with fellow worshipers, supporting each other and gathering strength in faith from each other.

Maybe you are different from most others and if so I apologize but I've heard it far too many times.
Some people simply don't find big group activities with a ton of strangers worthwhile to them. Others distrust organized religion, for good reason. Some might be shy. You call them lazy, but lots of people simply don't see the value in going to church. Other people like yourself do. *shrugs*

I'm sorry, Kimi but I've heard that, I'm closest to God when I'm fishing, or hiking, or lookig at a tree argument too many times. It is almost always offered by someone who is too lazy or not committed enough to get up on Sunday morning and go to church. It is okay to see God in nature but it is better to spend time with fellow worshipers, supporting each other and gathering strength in faith from each other.

Maybe you are different from most others and if so I apologize but I've heard it far too many times.

Is there only one proper way to worship God?

Exposing children to religious values is not indoctrinating them.

Taking children to church with you on Sunday morning is not indoctrinating them.

Having children attend Sunday School is not indoctrinating them.

Saying grace before meals is not indoctrinating them.

Having religious values in the home is not indoctrinating them.


Were we to follow your suggestion we would hide our faith from our children so as not to indoctrinate them.

Just out of curiosity Frogger, why not let your children grow up and decide for themselves whether they want to attend church? Why start them so young?

Just out of curiosity Frogger, why not let your children grow up and decide for themselves whether they want to attend church? Why start them so young?

Because that's not at all the way most Ethnics { Irish,Italian,Polish,
German etc.} go about rearing their offspring.Children should
be seen and not heard is a Great dictum.
Kids are not even aware what Rights are,let alone should have
a hand in determing theirs.
I don't understand that Logic.
Is a Schoolmarm supposed to ask her students if they FEEL like
a Homework assignment.?
Or if they should take off tomorrow on account of Snow.
Kids are No different than Puppy dogs or Kittens.
They have to slowly,very slowly develop a sense of comprehension
and then discipline.That takes years.
In point of fact,judging by - Jerry Springer - many Parents are worse
than Kids today.No sense of control,discipline or Civic responsibility.
That is what happens under yer formulation.
Just let Kids decide what's best.What Religion,what Clothes,what
behavior in Public etc.
That's worse than Crazy.
It's Insanely reprehensible.

Because that's not at all the way most Ethnics { Irish,Italian,Polish,
German etc.} go about rearing their offspring.Children should
be seen and not heard is a Great dictum.



In those countries that may be the way it's done Fool
I'm part Italian/Polish/German and my dad is Italian Catholic and my mom is Baptist. They decided to go the route of letting their children decide what religon they wanted in their lives.
I'm taking that route with my daughters too. Their dad is Irish Catolic and I have yet to make my mind up about my own religon so I feel it's better for my daughters to learn and explore on their own. They aren't little heathens who disrespect me or society in general and I will personally smack the living crap out of the first person that tells them they are to be seen and not heard.

Using your reasoning, Primitive Man, if you don't expose your children to Christianity but instead to your atheism you are indoctrinating them. You seem to have no problem with indoctrination if it is of what you believe yet you have a problem of indoctrination of other beliefs. Typical atheist convoluted thinking.

ahem, may you reread what i've posted and it will be apparent that i do believe in a god and spirits.
the mindset behind christianity in america, to the majority, is that it is part of their faith to "save" people. all based on blame, shame, fear, and guilt.
everything jesus was against.
and like it was posted, it revolves around the almighty dollar.
my temple is bigger than yours, we have more souls in here, now pass the collection plate so we can pave the parking lot.
when jesus said build my temple upon the rock, he was talking about the earth, land in general. nature. there money can not corrupt the being, and thus the faith can not be dominated by government. jesus saw the corruption caused by fear, money, and government.

it is sad that what a wonderful person like jesus was, is now nothing more than an infomercial.

In those countries that may be the way it's done Fool
I'm part Italian/Polish/German and my dad is Italian Catholic and my mom is Baptist. They decided to go the route of letting their children decide what religon they wanted in their lives.
I'm taking that route with my daughters too. Their dad is Irish Catolic and I have yet to make my mind up about my own religon so I feel it's better for my daughters to learn and explore on their own. They aren't little heathens who disrespect me or society in general and I will personally smack the living crap out of the first person that tells them they are to be seen and not heard.

OK.So there's 4 kids in the Family.And each one wants to study
and become involved in a different Religion.
One wants to be Catholic.
One wants to be a Baptist.
One wants to become Jewish.
One wants to Become a Muslim.

Do ya think there might be a widdle bit of a problem,Thar Swiss Miss.?
I mean,not just having to drive those kids to the different Church's
but also the Fasting and choice of food each religion stresses,to
name just a few.

Yer Idea'r is just impractical,in the least,and hugely conflicting
in the greater.
You aren't of Low I.Q. I hope.
That wood explain yer Opinion on this matter... Dearie.

Do ya think there might be a widdle bit of a problem,Thar Swiss Miss.?
I mean,not just having to drive those kids to the different Church's
but also the Fasting and choice of food each religion stresses,to
name just a few.

Yer Idea'r is just impractical,in the least,and hugely conflicting
in the greater.
You aren't of Low I.Q. I hope.
That wood explain yer Opinion on this matter... Dearie.



no there wouldn't be a problem Fool.....I only have 2 kids and I wouldn't care one way or another what religon they chose. As for driving them to different churches,the fasting and everything else that comes with their choice of religon,how is that any different than what I already do when it comes to them?
I already have to drive them to different schools which are 6 blocks apart,different school functions sometimes in different towns. And I already cook them different foods sometimes because what one likes,the other might not. If it makes them happy why wouldn't I do little things like that?

It's also a bit insolent on your part to assume that because I'm not raising MY kids to YOUR standards that I have a low IQ

no there wouldn't be a problem Fool.....I only have 2 kids and I wouldn't care one way or another what religon they chose. As for driving them to different churches,the fasting and everything else that comes with their choice of religon,how is that any different than what I already do when it comes to them?
I already have to drive them to different schools which are 6 blocks apart,different school functions sometimes in different towns. And I already cook them different foods sometimes because what one likes,the other might not. If it makes them happy why wouldn't I do little things like that?

It's also a bit insolent on your part to assume that because I'm not raising MY kids to YOUR standards that I have a low IQ

:bighug: ***********************
So yer answering juts to satisfy yer own selfishness.
How unseflsh of you.
What about yer neighbor who HAS 4 kids and ONE Religion which
up till recently was just dandy,until yer 2 brats filled their heads with
how kOOl it is to try out different Religions.

:bighug: ***********************
So yer answering juts to satisfy yer own selfishness.
How unseflsh of you.
What about yer neighbor who HAS 4 kids and ONE Religion which
up till recently was just dandy,until yer 2 brats filled their heads with
how kOOl it is to try out different Religions.


so now you've resorted to calling 2 innocent children "brats" because I won't conform to YOUR idea of religon Fool?

Your a bigger idiot than I mistook you for then


I don't give a flying fuck what my neighbors think. I don't have to do anything that anyone wants me to do because "it's the moral thing to do". This is right for ME AND MY CHILDREN and should not be an issue to anyone else.
And just how am I being selfish because I am letting my kids choose their own religon? What the hell does my neighbors have to do with it? I don't tell them to keep their kids away from mine just because they practice Wicca or Buddha or whatever else nor would I ever because I'm not a bigotted asshole like you.

Of damn nears all the problems we face with this Nouveau Kitsch
culture class is overwhemlingly simple.
Parents are beng pressured to listen to silly Liberals lecture
on the merits of Liberalism.
Let The Kids have a huge voice in their upbringing.

Let our Children decide :

- What time Dinner will be,if at all
- What food will be fixed for supper
- Where do go on Vacation,and when
- What kinda clothes they choose to wear,even for school
- When to go,if at all to the Doctor/Dentist
- What time they feel like turning off the TV and going to bed
- Or use the computer
- Or have their Own private Computer
- Or own private anything ...
- What kinda New Car to get
- What Religion they Like best ???????
- What schools they feel like attending
- What time the curfew will be
- Whether or not they need scolding
- Whether or not they told a fib,a lie or hurt another

See where this KrAzY notion of Liberal Permissiveness can lead to.
It will virtually create a Society of Ultra-Bratty Me Me Me Me Me
type Sociopath,who have little to no consideration or conscience
towards Others.
It will inevitable usher in a Callous Society of Little Dictators.


-

so now you've resorted to calling 2 innocent children "brats" because I won't conform to YOUR idea of religon Fool?

Your a bigger idiot than I mistook you for then


I don't give a flying fuck what my neighbors think. I don't have to do anything that anyone wants me to do because "it's the moral thing to do". This is right for ME AND MY CHILDREN and should not be an issue to anyone else.
And just how am I being selfish because I am letting my kids choose their own religon? What the hell does my neighbors have to do with it? I don't tell them to keep their kids away from mine just because they practice Wicca or Buddha or whatever else nor would I ever because I'm not a bigotted asshole like you.

Yer not in control of yer own Kids,let alone yer own temperment.
If you were truly unabashed and confident of yer rearing approach,
you would NOT be so upset,bickering and defensive.

Yer not in control of yer own Kids,let alone yer own temperment.
If you were truly unabashed and confident of yer rearing approach,
you would NOT be so upset,bickering and defensive.


you called my children brats and are attacking my way of bringing them up....do you honestly expect me to just lay down and let you do that?


Let me give you a little background here Fool....

I have been raising my daughters ALONE for the last 10 years and I feel I am doing a bang up job of it too. Their dad pays for NOTHING when it comes to them. He just enjoys getting to see them whenever the mood strikes him to play dad.
My girls are respectful to me and everyone else around them because I am the one that instilled that into them from a young age. They don't go to bed when they feel like it,they go to bed at 9 during the week and 11 on the weekends. They get a say in what they eat because they don't like everything and I don't expect them to and my youngest has food allergies. Sorry,I'd rather cook her a whole other meal than have her dead because she got some shellfish or strawberries.
They are only allowed on the computer for school homework and a half an hour each on Saturdays and the computer is in the dining room where it's visible to everyone. They don't get a say whether they go to the doctors or not.....they go when I make the appointment and that's that. They are old enough to start making a choice in their lives now but I have the final say on the big issues.
So I think you better back the fuck off and stop calling my kids brats and saying I am defensive and tempermental. You're damn right I am defensive when I feel someone is attacking my kids verbally.

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purpsoses are modeled after our own-a God,in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism." Albert Einstein

Sorry, but I'd take the creator and all knowing master of our universe over Albert Einstein any day of the week.

the comparison of intelligence is like a girls 2nd grade, second team basketball team vs. The men's olympic team USA.

you called my children brats and are attacking my way of bringing them up....do you honestly expect me to just lay down and let you do that?


Let me give you a little background here Fool....

I have been raising my daughters ALONE for the last 10 years and I feel I am doing a bang up job of it too. Their dad pays for NOTHING when it comes to them. He just enjoys getting to see them whenever the mood strikes him to play dad.
My girls are respectful to me and everyone else around them because I am the one that instilled that into them from a young age. They don't go to bed when they feel like it,they go to bed at 9 during the week and 11 on the weekends. They get a say in what they eat because they don't like everything and I don't expect them to and my youngest has food allergies. Sorry,I'd rather cook her a whole other meal than have her dead because she got some shellfish or strawberries.
They are only allowed on the computer for school homework and a half an hour each on Saturdays and the computer is in the dining room where it's visible to everyone. They don't get a say whether they go to the doctors or not.....they go when I make the appointment and that's that. They are old enough to start making a choice in their lives now but I have the final say on the big issues.
So I think you better back the fuck off and stop calling my kids brats and saying I am defensive and tempermental. You're damn right I am defensive when I feel someone is attacking my kids verbally.

Yup,Their Brats if they tell You what they will eat or not at Dinner.
Their BRATS if THEY decide what Religion they feel up to.
Their BRATS if they have to go to different schools,of their choosing.
Their BRATS if they don't give a hoot,like You,Mrs.Brat,about
the Neighbors.What do you think the definition of a Neighborhood IS.
What do you think is the definition of a Brat IS.
One who don't care about anything or anyone but themself and
chooses to NOT listen when told.Or throw a little whiney jag till they
get what they want.
Yup,theres a lot of little Brats out there.
They end up becoming Big Brats,also.
I'm not Talkin Army Brats,either.They ain't Brats,by definition.
They go and do what their tole.
Try it sometime.And yer Kids,also.

Damn, Michelle. You tell him! :)

Their BRATS if THEY decide what Religion they feel up to.
.

You mean "They'RE", I'm sure.

Anyhoo, by yr definition, this makes my entire family "brats".

Foolsworth, you cannot cram your religion down someone's throat. Ya just can't do it. Not to yr kids, not to yr neighbors, not to yr coworkers, not to yr extended family, not to random people you "meet" on the internet.

Not only is it terribly bad manners, it just doesn't work. Ninety-nine out of a hundred times, there is going to be a backlash, and it's not pretty. How many minister's kids end up down the wrong path?

How many ?
Lots.

A parent can give guidance. A parent can set an example. But a parent CANNOT "make" a kid worship ANY god.

Yup,Their Brats if they tell You what they will eat or not at Dinner.
Their BRATS if THEY decide what Religion they feel up to.
Their BRATS if they have to go to different schools,of their choosing.
Their BRATS if they don't give a hoot,like You,Mrs.Brat,about
the Neighbors.What do you think the definition of a Neighborhood IS.
What do you think is the definition of a Brat IS.
One who don't care about anything or anyone but themself and
chooses to NOT listen when told.Or throw a little whiney jag till they
get what they want.
Yup,theres a lot of little Brats out there.
They end up becoming Big Brats,also.
I'm not Talkin Army Brats,either.They ain't Brats,by definition.
They go and do what their tole.
Try it sometime.And yer Kids,also.


Keep it up Fool.....you're only making yourself look stupider and stupider

They give me INPUT about what they want to eat. And yes they will choose what religon suits them best. I'm not the first parent to do this either. Both my girls go to the school district public schools and that is just fine with all involved. And I don't give a flying fuck about my neighborhood or neighbors because they don't give a flying fuck about me.
My kids don't whine when they don't get their own way and haven't since they were 2 and figured out it doesn't work on me. They also do as their told when they are told or they get grounded for it. They face consequences when they break a rule.

Do you have kids Fool? If not I would suggest you shut that hole in your face and stop judging me because you don't know me. I would NEVER judge you or anyone else as a person or parent for doing something you thought and felt in your heart and soul was right. Keep digging into me and you're gonna find out exactly how big a MS. Brat I can be

Do those who are saying let the children decide about religion honestly think their children will choose a faith? It is almost a certainty that they will grow up completly unchurched and without any faith what-so-ever. If you wish your children to grow up atheists that is up to you but don't hand out the line of malarky that you are not exposing them to religion so that they can make their own choice later in life. They can make that choice later in life in any event. Many of you were brought up churched and have decided to not practice a religion or to practice one different from your parents.

Certain of you may choose to have your children grow up unchurched but I choose to ground my children's lives in a religious belief. As young children they are not capable of making decisions about what food to eat much less what religious or ethical system to follow.

When they are older they are free to choose which religion, if any they will follow but while they are children in my care I feel a responibility to have them grow up churched.

I simply do not buy the argument, "I am religious but I don't want to influence my children so I am going to not expose them to any religion." It is a cop out for people who are too lazy to get off their butts once a week and take their children to a church, synagogue, mosque or temple.

You don't refrain from telling your children what to eat, how to dress, who to play with. You don't hide your political views from your children. It is simply a load of b.s. to say you are not going to introduce your children to religion because you want to give them free choice. Little kids don't get to choose in matters so important. If they wish to change their religious affilitation or end their religious affilitation when they are older that is one thing but to not exose them to religion and to then say you are doing it for some higher purpose is a crock.

Do those who are saying let the children decide about religion honestly think their children will choose a faith? It is almost a certainty that they will grow up completly unchurched and without any faith what-so-ever.

Certain of you may choose to have your children grow up unchurched but I choose to ground my children's lives in a religious belief. As young children they are not capable of making decisions about what food to eat much less what religious or ethical system to follow.

When they are older they are free to choose which religion, if any they will follow but while they are children in my care I feel a responibility to have them grow up churched.

I simply do not buy the argument, "I am religious but I don't want to influence my children so I am going to not expose them to any religion." It is a cop out for people who are too lazy to get off their butts once a week and take their children to a church, synagogue, mosque or temple.

You don't refrain from telling your children what to eat, how to dress, who to play with. You don't hide your political views from your children. It is simply a load of b.s. to say you are not going to introduce your children to religion because you want to give them free choice. Little kids don't get to choose in matters so important. If they wish to change their religious affilitation or end their religious affilitation when they are older that is one thing but to not exose them to religion and to then say you are doing it for some higher purpose is a crock.


I agree that when they are little you make the choices for them. And I did. My girls are now 12 and 9,I think I can give a little leeway to them to make some choices on their own like what food they like,what clothes they like(within reason) and other small stuff.

I myself don't hold a religon and that's my choice alone. My daughters have gone to church with my older brother and my sister and like it. I don't use "I am religious but I don't want to influence my children so I am going to not expose them to any religion." as a cop out. Everything I do everyday down to the smallest detail influences my kids. No ones perfect and the sooner people stop thinking we have to be the better off we'll all be.

I applaud your choices for what you feel is right for your family Frogger,but please respect my choices for what I feel is right for mine.

Do those who are saying let the children decide about religion honestly think their children will choose a faith? It is almost a certainty that they will grow up completly unchurched and without any faith what-so-ever.

Certain of you may choose to have your children grow up unchurched but I choose to ground my children's lives in a religious belief. As young children they are not capable of making decisions about what food to eat much less what religious or ethical system to follow.

When they are older they are free to choose which religion, if any they will follow but while they are children in my care I feel a responibility to have them grow up churched.

I simply do not buy the argument, "I am religious but I don't want to influence my children so I am going to not expose them to any religion." It is a cop out for people who are too lazy to get off their butts once a week and take their children to a church, synagogue, mosque or temple.

You don't refrain from telling your children what to eat, how to dress, who to play with. You don't hide your political views from your children. It is simply a load of b.s. to say you are not going to introduce your children to religion because you want to give them free choice. Little kids don't get to choose in matters so important. If they wish to change their religious affilitation or end their religious affilitation when they are older that is one thing but to not exose them to religion and to then say you are doing it for some higher purpose is a crock.

Like many parents here, we HAVE introduced our kids to religion.
For a number of years, we attended, somewhat sporadically, a variety of churches. There were Bibles lying about the house; we taught them the Golden Rule, we taught them morals, we spoke of God and Jesus often.

It is important to realize the true definition of the word "Church"--according to Jesus Christ, it is not a building, but merely a gathering of people, maybe as little as two or three, who discuss and worship the Lord. So yes, a church can be in your very own home, a playground, a beach, the grocery store. This is not blasphemy, these are the words of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

As they grew older, a few attend on a fairly regular basis; one does not. His decision. Who am I to criticize?

Let he among us who is without sin cast the first stone.

Duck, Rendova. I just threw a stone at you.:hitout:

You sound like a great parent, Ren, no matter what Frogger says.

I think the best thing for children is to expose them to religion - but not just one. My mom is not religious at all but she took us to Quaker and Unitarian churches many times when we were little, and I've been to church with my Catholic paternal grandmother, my Christian Scientist maternal grandmother, and my Episcopalian boyfriend.

I think the best thing for children is to expose them to religion - but not just one. My mom is not religious at all but she took us to Quaker and Unitarian churches many times when we were little, and I've been to church with my Catholic paternal grandmother, my Christian Scientist maternal grandmother, and my Episcopalian boyfriend.

I'll agree with that--and it's also good you've been around a variety of denominations and faiths.
If for nothing else, this serves to at least expose a person to the basic tenets of a particular faith, its doctrine and history.

You sound like a great parent, Ren, no matter what Frogger says.

This is an example of a poster with a reading comprehension problem distorting what another poster said. I never said Ren wasn't a good parent.

Why don't you learn to read before jumping in to a conversation?

This is an example of a poster with a reading comprehension problem distorting what another poster said. I never said Ren wasn't a good parent.

Why don't you learn to read before jumping in to a conversation?

No problem--kids, break it up.. I said BREAK IT UP!!!

Better you throw a stone, Froggy, than that rug of yours.

Foolsworth is what happens when a grown man watches too much daytime television.

Keep it up Fool.....you're only making yourself look stupider and stupider

They give me INPUT about what they want to eat. And yes they will choose what religon suits them best. I'm not the first parent to do this either. Both my girls go to the school district public schools and that is just fine with all involved. And I don't give a flying fuck about my neighborhood or neighbors because they don't give a flying fuck about me.
My kids don't whine when they don't get their own way and haven't since they were 2 and figured out it doesn't work on me. They also do as their told when they are told or they get grounded for it. They face consequences when they break a rule.

Do you have kids Fool? If not I would suggest you shut that hole in your face and stop judging me because you don't know me. I would NEVER judge you or anyone else as a person or parent for doing something you thought and felt in your heart and soul was right. Keep digging into me and you're gonna find out exactly how big a MS. Brat I can be

Yes,It's Good that your're Not judging Me,me,me,me.... Meeeeeeeee.
Real goot,I can cede dat now.
Specially gOOt NOT as a Person,also.

Foolsworth is what happens when a grown man watches too much daytime television.

Who are you to judge Me Growness.?
If I grow weary,does that count.?

Who are you to judge Me Growness.?I think you open the door to others judging you when you start calling children you've never met brats and their mother Mrs. Brat.

Yes,It's Good that your're Not judging Me,me,me,me.... Meeeeeeeee.
Real goot,I can cede dat now.
Specially gOOt NOT as a Person,also.




umm....I'm not and I didn't....the worst thing I have said to you or about you is to call you a bigotted asshole.
I don't know you and how you live your life has no direct effect on me so why would I judge you for anything you do in your own life?

You crossed a line attacking my children Fool,something I will never forgive you for nor will I ever forget it.
Say what you want to or about me,I don't care,but the minute you attack my children all bets are off and I will fight back.

Foolsworth is what happens when a grown man watches too much daytime television.
as a grown man that watches too much daytime tv, i resent the comparison:mad:

as a grown man that watches too much daytime tv, i resent the comparison:mad:Ha ha!!

Well, at least you know it's too much, so you can defend your psyche from the worst of it.

I picture Foolsworth looking forward with anticipation to each episode of The Jerry Springer Show, knowing it will confirm his suspicions about the depravity of American culture and the desperate need for a moral revolution amongst the masses.

I think you open the door to others judging you when you start calling children you've never met brats and their mother Mrs. Brat.

If the vast majority of DOOFUS herein can,will,and insist that
Our President is a Liar,Stupid and a Traitor,than it really isn't
mush a giant leap to assume that Brattiness abounds.
I'd call you a Brat,but to what ends.
You'd proilly Filibuster some Meat, and Frankly display
Baloney furters.
And have their Buns toasted for good measure.

If the vast majority of DOOFUS herein can,will,and insist that
Our President is a Liar,Stupid and a Traitor,than it really isn't
mush a giant leap to assume that Brattiness abounds.
I'd call you a Brat,but to what ends.
You'd proilly Filibuster some Meat, and Frankly display
Baloney furters.
And have their Buns toasted for good measure.
quit while you're behind, Fool. you're only making an ass of yourself.

quit while you're behind, Fool. you're only making an ass of yourself.

All's fair in Love & Posting

Do those who are saying let the children decide about religion honestly think their children will choose a faith? It is almost a certainty that they will grow up completly unchurched and without any faith what-so-ever. If you wish your children to grow up atheists that is up to you but don't hand out the line of malarky that you are not exposing them to religion so that they can make their own choice later in life. They can make that choice later in life in any event. Many of you were brought up churched and have decided to not practice a religion or to practice one different from your parents.

Certain of you may choose to have your children grow up unchurched but I choose to ground my children's lives in a religious belief. As young children they are not capable of making decisions about what food to eat much less what religious or ethical system to follow.

When they are older they are free to choose which religion, if any they will follow but while they are children in my care I feel a responibility to have them grow up churched.

I simply do not buy the argument, "I am religious but I don't want to influence my children so I am going to not expose them to any religion." It is a cop out for people who are too lazy to get off their butts once a week and take their children to a church, synagogue, mosque or temple.

You don't refrain from telling your children what to eat, how to dress, who to play with. You don't hide your political views from your children. It is simply a load of b.s. to say you are not going to introduce your children to religion because you want to give them free choice. Little kids don't get to choose in matters so important. If they wish to change their religious affilitation or end their religious affilitation when they are older that is one thing but to not exose them to religion and to then say you are doing it for some higher purpose is a crock.


no one in my family ever forced me into church. my parents were not church goers until i was about 10 years old. i remember my grandfather discussing the bible with others, or argueing something about it with someone. no one ever forced anythign down my throat, tried to make me afraid, etc.. when i DID go to church with my parents,i thought i had to, they never said i didn't have to, but i went for about a year and everytime i sat there in the pew and i was thinking, "these people have no idea what they are talking about."
i read the bible. even at such a young age i saw way too much that was contradictory.
i stopped going to church. wanted nothing to do with it. but i can say my grandfather showed me inadvertantly, not forced, how chirstianity and jesus should be seen. do and live as jesus said, all else in the bible is just a bunch of "talk". and things will be just fine.
my grandfather asked my mom what i believed , and she told him indian (native american) and he said, "nothing wrong with that." and that coming from a man who believed if you didn't do what jesus said, you were going straight to hell.
i was never forced into church, coersed, etc.., and i made my own decisions, and i believe in an afterlife, and spirits. and my beliefs are not and never will be based on blame, shame, guilt, or fear.

So what can you do? Tell the person to do some logical reasoning to arrive at the logical conclusion that the religion you are selling makes sense? Problematic.
Converting people to a religion, well, that's not my business. The opposite however...

Mocking, vindctive speech and maybe an outrageous bible verse quote or recommendation of Bertrand Russell's "Why I am not a christian" are surefire winners to either get you punched or have a new freethinker.

Converting people to a religion, well, that's not my business. The opposite however...

Mocking, vindctive speech and maybe an outrageous bible verse quote or recommendation of Bertrand Russell's "Why I am not a christian" are surefire winners to either get you punched or have a new freethinker.

I heard no one here,Converting anyone to a particular Faith {Religion}.
Just examples of Having a Religion,in lieu of floating thru Life,
willy-nilly,maybe dawdling in Faith,maybe not.
I have heard the word " Converting " used rather extensively by those
who are " PUSHING " a Non-Faith Agenda.
It's like saying one is better off NOT Knowing any Foreign Language.
If one studies French,Spanish or German,it's irrelevant,and makes them
no better than one who can't speak but English.
Which is Hogwash.
Just like if someone has a Master's Degree it is better than just an
Undergraduate degree.Or 2 year Associate Degree.
Respect for someone should be based on accomplishment and
trying.I don't fault someone for Trying and failing.
Not all good bsaketball players can dunk a ball.
Not all Academics are skilled in Calculus or verse.
But to assume ALL Americans are the same,and NO Religion is just
as Good,American and Respectful as SOME Religion,flies in the face
of Logic.

Is All

Evakian,

You used to be a fairly good poster who posted comments that seemed thought out and meant to advance discussion. Since your return you seem more interested in posting nasty little digs instead of anything of substance.

Is this what we have to expect from the new Evakian?