I didn't want to threadjack someone else's thread.. but I saw Freethinker post something to the tune of "it is a prerequisite for a religionist to throw logic out the window"...

My question is this FT.. there are many, many people in this country alone, and in the world, who are much smarter than you. They get double 800's on their SAT's. Yet, they believe and God and go to church. Are they "stupid" just because they think that the unproven theory of how we came to be here may not be scientific in origin? Are the "scientists" out there that claim there is no God smarter than the ones that do? Is that just automatic?

Please clear this up for me... I just sense a (no pun intended) "holier than thou" attitude whenever you talk to anyone who happens to believe in religion... like they are at a lower level. It's not a good way to present yourself.

Many, many smart people get stupid when it comes to religion. Religion itself requires a disavowing of a certain amount of logic and reason. They don't necessarily throw the baby out with the bathwater, but they do get a little crazy and over-defensive. Intelligence actually has little bearing on who is religious and who isn't.

He said illogical, not stupid. They're two completely different things. One can easily be intelligent and illogical, or be stupid and have a good grasp of logic.

He said illogical, not stupid. They're two completely different things.
"Are they "stupid" just because they think that the unproven theory of how we came to be here may not be scientific in origin?"

"Are they "stupid" just because they think that the unproven theory of how we came to be here may not be scientific in origin?"
No, no... FT said that believers "throw logic out the window", meaning that they're illogical.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/the_data_so_far.png (http://xkcd.com)

I realize that religion is based on faith...

I realize that being smart doesn't mean you are logical

but there is a tone, a voice of arrogance that people like FT have towards people of religion. I just wanted to know, since anyone with the right credentials can be used as evidence for a theory of science, if someone with big time credentials can be used evidence for a theory of a God or creator of the universe. I have heard multiple testimonies from people who have been in science their entire lives, got their bachelors, masters, phD.. the whole nine yards.. and they still marvel at how well structured and balanced things are, and how they believe in God.

I mean, if you are a science WHIZ.. shouldn't the idea of a God be non-existent, considering you specialize in the field that is most prevalent in defying religion? But that's not the case.

I don't need to PROVE that God exists... just like Bon Jovi said in his horrific song.. "It's my liiiiffffee".... I believe!! And I have never been stronger in my belief. I pray for God to have mercy on my sins, to do with my life what he wants to, and to remember me when the day comes.

I wish I could share your strength in belief, Decka. I find it so hard to believe in a god that actually cares about me either way, and I think it will all end up the same after I die no matter what I do here on earth. "Sins" are only bad if they hurt others, and they are bad for that reason only, not because "God" doesn't want you to sin.

it took me awhile.. and i'm not saying its universal.. but I prayed that God would use me.. and it seems like things are in motion... to say the least. You seem like a great person Dark... and I'll think that of you regardless of your beliefs.

Thanks, Decka. :) It's nice to hear that sometimes. I'm glad you've got your life on the path you want... I'm working on that too (just have to finish figuring out what I actually want :p)

I didn't want to threadjack someone else's thread.. but I saw Freethinker post something to the tune of "it is a prerequisite for a religionist to throw logic out the window"...

My question is this FT.. there are many, many people in this country alone, and in the world, who are much smarter than you. They get double 800's on their SAT's. Yet, they believe and God and go to church. Are they "stupid" just because they think that the unproven theory of how we came to be here may not be scientific in origin?

No, they're not stupid.

But they have become infected with a mind virus, a meme, that causes them to not be able to think critically and in a logical way when the topic is religion and their "God".

Are the "scientists" out there that claim there is no God smarter than the ones that do? Is that just automatic?

Firstly, I have never heard any scientist "claim there is no god".

Most of them who are non-believers are like me; they do not posit the nonexistence of a god, they simply note that they have been provided zero evidence of a "god". Hence, they hold no "belief" in said "god" or gods.

Are those scientists smarter than the ones that believe in a god? Well, they are certainly more logical and sane.


Please clear this up for me... I just sense a (no pun intended) "holier than thou" attitude whenever you talk to anyone who happens to believe in religion...

No, not *holier* than thou. Just *more rational than thou*.

...like they are at a lower level.

In terms of rationality and critical thinking...yes. Absolutely, in that sense, I consider them to be at a lower level than me, and at a lower level than every other person on the planet with the cognitive capability to understand that "believing in" some invisible, supernatural "creator" deity-up-in-the-sky is a form of mental imbalance.

It's not a good way to present yourself.

Noted.

Thank you for answering my questions FT... I think you did so in a very informative way... the exchange of views and information is always a good thing, whether you agree with it or not.

No, they're not stupid.

But they have become infected with a mind virus, a meme, that causes them to not be able to think critically and in a logical way when the topic is religion and their "God".



Firstly, I have never heard any scientist "claim there is no god".

Most of them who are non-believers are like me; they do not posit the nonexistence of a god, they simply note that they have been provided zero evidence of a "god". Hence, they hold no "belief" in said "god" or gods.

Are those scientists smarter than the ones that believe in a god? Well, they are certainly more logical and sane.




No, not *holier* than thou. Just *more rational than thou*.



In terms of rationality and critical thinking...yes. Absolutely, in that sense, I consider them to be at a lower level than me, and at a lower level than every other person on the planet with the cognitive capability to understand that "believing in" some invisible, supernatural "creator" deity-up-in-the-sky is a form of mental imbalance.



Noted.
we'll remeber this when your Bush Derangement Syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_Derangement_Syndrome)rears it's head again:lolhit:

I realize that religion is based on faith...
Good. Stop there and don't equate it with being logical.

I don't need to PROVE that God exists
"Something asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."-Christopher Hitchens

I pray for God to have mercy on my sins, to do with my life what he wants to, and to remember me when the day comes.
Mercy on sins? But the two most prominent Protestant doctrines of salvation are "The Elect" from birth, or "Turn to Jesus and its a ticket to Heaven." Neither of which take sinning into account, plus there is the issue of "God's Will." If God has a plan for you what's the use of praying if He is just going to go through with his plan anyway?

I admire and respect you for witnessing for your faith, Decka.

Thank you Frogger for those kind words, but I have no problem witnessing and I don't see what is so "out of the ordinary" for a Christian to say what he believes.


Good. Stop there and don't equate it with being logical.

I'm just saying many intelligent people, who have very logical minds, still believe in God.

"Something asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."-Christopher Hitchens

I'm not asking you to believe Evak.. if you don't choose to believe, then don't.


Mercy on sins? But the two most prominent Protestant doctrines of salvation are "The Elect" from birth, or "Turn to Jesus and its a ticket to Heaven." Neither of which take sinning into account, plus there is the issue of "God's Will." If God has a plan for you what's the use of praying if He is just going to go through with his plan anyway?

Mercy on sins is the pinnacle point of christianity. We are all sinful beings who in God's eyes are "monsters", slaves to sin. Jesus died for our sins... so that we would be cleansed from that sin. He could have just "automatically" done it.. but then how would he know who would be faithful to his word? He sent Jesus to teach his word, and that's exactly what happened.

As for "God's Will"... God probably has multiple plans for me, just like a mother has multiple hopes for her daughter.. but you see how they develop, and how trusting and how much initiative they take. God could just completely control us, but then he'd already know the outcome. I think he knows all the outcomes, but he doesn't know EXACTLY which decision we'll make... if we will be tempted or if we will stay true... well he probably already knows that, but he wants us to experience and grow in our lives, so that we can be saved by Jesus's sacrafice and be in heaven. There is no deed, no thought, or no action that can make you "worthy" of heaven.. If it weren't for Jesus's sacrafice, we'd all be damned to hell. That's what I think and believe...

Mercy on sins is the pinnacle point of christianity. We are all sinful beings who in God's eyes are "monsters", slaves to sin. Jesus died for our sins... so that we would be cleansed from that sin. He could have just "automatically" done it.. but then how would he know who would be faithful to his word?
An omniscient and omnipotent being cannot think of a way to educate a planet of semi-intelligent ape people outside of incarnating himself as one and having himself killed?

If prayer on a personal basis can be used for redemption, the crucifixion seems superfluous.

I think he knows all the outcomes, but he doesn't know EXACTLY which decision we'll make... if we will be tempted or if we will stay true... well he probably already knows that, but he wants us to experience and grow in our lives, so that we can be saved by Jesus's sacrafice and be in heaven.
An ominpotent, omniscient being would not "want."

There is no deed, no thought, or no action that can make you "worthy" of heaven.. If it weren't for Jesus's sacrafice, we'd all be damned to hell. That's what I think and believe...
But what is the reason for worship/prayer at all if you're destined?

I won't pretend to know what God's reasoning is.. or think that I am on the same level as him.

We aren't all destined.. we all make choices every day.

I mean, if you are a science WHIZ.. shouldn't the idea of a God be non-existent, considering you specialize in the field that is most prevalent in defying religion?
Why do you call the observation and analyzation of the universe "defying religion"?

You mean, suddenly discovering that Earth revolves around the Sun counts as "defying religion?" Poor way to phrase that.

We aren't all destined.. we all make choices every day.
Then God isn't omnipotent or omniscient, lacks the balls to put in place a "Divine Plan", and doesn't effect our lives.

Then God isn't omnipotent or omniscient, lacks the balls to put in place a "Divine Plan", and doesn't effect our lives.
"Affect," tard.

"Affect," tard.
Uncle Sam's school system failed me.

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/6909/image0046sd.jpg

Many, many smart people get stupid when it comes to religion. Religion itself requires a disavowing of a certain amount of logic and reason. They don't necessarily throw the baby out with the bathwater, but they do get a little crazy and over-defensive. Intelligence actually has little bearing on who is religious and who isn't.

I find it to be the exact Opposite.Those who feel arrogant and
regard Religion as a senseless pursuit,are in actuality The truly
clueless.Need I cite a few dozen Great Philosopher/Theologian who
support my POV.
Yes, Atheism has reared it's head,again.
Because of the Cushy,ease of Living that many are now accustomed
to.It wasn't that way,in most of Life.We have entered into a
Culture of Hedonistic pursuits.Whether it's something as innocuous
as stuffing oneself at a fast food joint,going to the Mall and spending
their limit on Mom & Dad's Credit card or just pursuing Sex Via all
the available Free Porn on the Net.

I Think yer a Gigantic Lazy,Slacker.Not even given to reading.
If you had read,even some classic Novels,you would not think in
such Cavalier,slovenly terms.

An omniscient and omnipotent being cannot think of a way to educate a planet of semi-intelligent ape people outside of incarnating himself as one and having himself killed?

If prayer on a personal basis can be used for redemption, the crucifixion seems superfluous.


An ominpotent, omniscient being would not "want."


But what is the reason for worship/prayer at all if you're destined?

You are arguing Mysteries of Faith.
Just like Man cannot interpret Infinity,so to with God's Will.
If man were to unravel such Mysteris of Faith,then maybe
the world would serve no purpose.
What I'm saying ...IS,Life must have more meaning than merely
comprehending the obvious.It may be presumed that Man IS the
Highest form of Life knoweable.But to Know All,is still beyond
our Realm.Maybe Man should just get over himself and accept his
limitation.Y'know like a Lobster does in a Wal*Mart Lobster Tank.

http://macnugget.org/albums/strange/werd.jpg

I won't pretend to know what God's reasoning is..

Don't you do that when you believe the Bible is the word of God?

Don't you do that when you believe the Bible is the word of God?

The INSPIRED Word of God,The Bible Is.
I know that may be too deep,for such an A ,as yerself.

Why do you call the observation and analyzation of the universe "defying religion"?

You mean, suddenly discovering that Earth revolves around the Sun counts as "defying religion?" Poor way to phrase that.

It might have been a poor phrasing taken out of context Evak, I agree. But the notion that only smart people of science who have evidence for theories are somehow more qualified to stand by their beliefs than those of faith just irks me.

And what of those who supposedly "so smart", know the cosmos like the back of their hand, have seen the data, the proof, and the structure of the universe (or at least what we have seen of it)... and yet still believe? How do you explain that? Shouldn't all that data just make any person think religion is a farce?

Then God isn't omnipotent or omniscient, lacks the balls to put in place a "Divine Plan", and doesn't effect our lives.

You can go ahead and call God out on whether or not he has "balls" or not, I'll leave that one on you. He effects our lives in that we are talking about him right now. He effects my life because I base my life around him, and he may have a general "divine plan", and really doesn't see it as such a travesty if us pawns die or not. Because IF there is an afterlife, he's doing us a favor. You, like FT, put so much value on human life. I would expect a God who created the entire universe to think of us as a grain of sand, unworthy of his love or mercy. And yet you guys fail to realize that it's all in "who you know"... You may not like God, but he's the only way to heaven, if you believe heaven exists. That's the name of the game, just like the only way to crawl up the corporate ladder is to kiss the CEO's ass LOL. These, of course, are all my beliefs...


Don't you do that (pretend to know what God's reasoning is) when you believe the Bible is the word of God?

The bible has teachings from which I learn from. God tells me, through the book, how I should be, and humbles me in how imperfect I am, and just how merciful he really is. I don't pretend to think that human reasoning can explain the methods of God... others on this thread and site do.

I admire and respect you for witnessing for your faith, Decka.

Werd!


Me to Decka, you know what you know. No doubts about it.
I have enjoyed reading quite a few of your post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evakian
Why do you call the observation and analyzation of the universe "defying religion"?

You mean, suddenly discovering that Earth revolves around the Sun counts as "defying religion?" Poor way to phrase that.


Decka quote
It might have been a poor phrasing taken out of context Evak, I agree. But the notion that only smart people of science who have evidence for theories are somehow more qualified to stand by their beliefs than those of faith just irks me.

And what of those who supposedly "so smart", know the cosmos like the back of their hand, have seen the data, the proof, and the structure of the universe (or at least what we have seen of it)... and yet still believe? How do you explain that? Shouldn't all that data just make any person think religion is a farce?

Decka, I believe both can be correct at the same time. God or Gods live or exist outside of the Physical realities. So Science is correct in saying that no evidence or proof of God or Gods exist. But if God or Gods live or exist outside of the physical realities. But can provide individual or personal evidence or proof on a mental or emotional level to a individual then That individual is correct in claiming that their God or Gods exist. So long as the belief or Faith is personal and individual then it is valid.

But the notion that only smart people of science who have evidence for theories are somehow more qualified to stand by their beliefs than those of faith just irks me.

I'll tell you what irks me. Mightily.

When the scientific community brings to the table reams of research and data, years of experimentation and observation, and countless peer-reviewed studies that point to a logical, consistent conclusion (evolution being a prime example) to a proposed scientific theory, but then the religionist faction comes along and counters with --"Bu...bu...buut my Bible says something different! So there! You have one belief, I have another!....see???...our beliefs offset one another!" My belief is just as likely as yours! Hah!!""

It's such bullshit.

I'll tell you what irks me. Mightily.

When the scientific community brings to the table reams of research and data, years of experimentation and observation, and countless peer-reviewed studies that point to a logical, consistent conclusion (evolution being a prime example) to a proposed scientific theory, but then the religionist faction comes along and counters with --"Bu...bu...buut my Bible says something different! So there! You have one belief, I have another!....see???...our beliefs offset one another!" My belief is just as likely as yours! Hah!!""

It's such bullshit.

Ah, now to which science are you referring?

Today's science makes yesterday's science look like a joke. Tomorrow's science will probably think similarly of today's science.

I'd also be interested to know to which Bibles and religious factions you are referring? Many religious people do NOT believe that every word in the Bibles is true (or the Words of God), in fact, many of them do not dis-agree with any of today's scientific findings. They merely point out that there is NO scientific fact dis-proving the existence of a God.
Yes, it's easy for you to define a God, in your terms, and then dis-prove it. But that only dis-proves your God, not necessarily the God in which others believe.