Nope. Only three of them have anything to do with law or ethical behavior and these three,homicide,theft, and perjury are revelant to our modern laws and they have existed in cultures long pre-dating Moses. We have secular laws based on the human principle of "justice for all". We have a secular criminal justice system. Oh and the Supreme Court has ruled that posting the Ten Commandments in public schools is unconstitutional!!

Nope. Only three of them have anything to do with law or ethical behavior and these three,homicide,theft, and perjury are revelant to our modern laws and they have existed in cultures long pre-dating Moses. We have secular laws based on the human principle of "justice for all". We have a secular criminal justice system. Oh and the Supreme Court has ruled that posting the Ten Commandments in public schools is unconstitutional!!
George Carlin's bit on this is far more entertaining than yours.

Well I didn't post it under the humor category. And I wasn't trying to be entertaining. And yes George Carlin is great in fact I'm going to see him film his next HBO special on March 1 and already have my tickets. He's great!

American law is not "based" on the Commandments, but it's silly to think that Christian values have had absolutely nothing to do with the formation of our laws, etc.

American law is not "based" on the Commandments, but it's silly to think that Christian values have had absolutely nothing to do with the formation of our laws, etc.

That, combined with how many christians there are in this country, how emotional a topic like a religion is, and how it is impossible to keep church and state entirely separate is why you see certain christian values still lingering around... who am I to judge if they are right for america though.

how it is impossible to keep church and state entirely separate
How, exactly, is it impossible?

How, exactly, is it impossible?

I would have to say because administrators bring with them their mental baggage.

American law is not "based" on the Commandments, but it's silly to think that Christian values have had absolutely nothing to do with the formation of our laws, etc. Whick Christian values do you think were not around before Christianity?

Whick Christian values do you think were not around before Christianity?
DF isn't necessarily saying that these values are uniquely Christian; she is arguing that the Christian religion has indeed influenced some laws. This is absolutely true.

DF isn't necessarily saying that these values are uniquely Christian; she is arguing that the Christian religion has indeed influenced some laws. This is absolutely true. Absolutley and not always for the better!

DF isn't necessarily saying that these values are uniquely Christian; she is arguing that the Christian religion has indeed influenced some laws. This is absolutely true.
Exactly.

One cannot discount the effects of Christianity on not just our laws, but our society as a whole. Good AND bad, fair AND unjust, the United States has been molded to a certain degree by the Christian faith.

Our founding fathers had the wisdom to give us freedom of religion and the freedom from a state-sponsored religious affiliation.

While it can be argued that there have been many societal issues and blue laws that were detrimental to many, I think, all-in-all we have turned out as a heck of a good country. The work ethic, the ingenuity, and the patriotism that the people of the U.S. have shown throughout our history is in part attributed to the religious worship and religious freedoms that we have.

Other societies that have had either their laws and political philosophies shaped by a state sponsored religion or have no religion tolerated at all, do not fare as well as we do.

With all the problems that face our society today, I would still argue that we have done the best of any country in allowing freedom, self sufficiency, and prosperity for our citizens. To think that religion played (and plays) no role in this is to be myopic in historical retrospection.

Great post, OP. I think you pretty much summed it up.

DF isn't necessarily saying that these values are uniquely Christian; she is arguing that the Christian religion has indeed influenced some laws. This is absolutely true. I always find it interesting when one poster has to tell you what another poster meant. :D

American law is not "based" on the Commandments, but it's silly to think that Christian values have had absolutely nothing to do with the formation of our laws, etc. Well yes it would certainly be siily to think that Christian values have had absolutely nothing to do with the formation of our laws but exactly which Christian values would you say don't exist in our culture without Chrisitanity. I think "Christian values" or "family values" is just a word used by conservative right-wing groups. I don't think these values are even the same as one would get from reading the bible. Conservative right-wing groups all to often try to use the Bible as a weapon. They use the bible to push there on narrow-minded views.

Let me just point out that the 5 commandments not directly connected to God is not exclusive to Christianity (or Judaism). They are fundamental principles of human society throughout history.

I always find it interesting when one poster has to tell you what another poster meant. :D
He got to it before I got the chance to read the thread. He didn't "have to" tell anyone anything, and if he hadn't I certainly would have once I got the chance.

Well yes it would certainly be siily to think that Christian values have had absolutely nothing to do with the formation of our laws but exactly which Christian values would you say don't exist in our culture without Chrisitanity.
I didn't say that any of them would exist in our culture without Christianity. I said they came to our culture through Christianity. If Christianity didn't exist they'd probably still be there.

Let me just point out that the 5 commandments not directly connected to God is not exclusive to Christianity (or Judaism). They are fundamental principles of human society throughout history.
This has been pointed out like 3 times already, Angelina, and I'm sure we were all aware of it even before it was pointed out.

Whick Christian values do you think were not around before Christianity?
Love thy nieghbor. Turn the other cheek.

Love thy nieghbor. Turn the other cheek. So you really think that people were not capable of loving their neighbor before Chrisitianity? The Golden Rule was around before that. And if someone socks you in the cheek your really going to turn and offer them the other?

We must remember that anything from the Old Testament (e.g. the 10 Commandments) was around before Christianity.

So you really think that people were not capable of loving their neighbor before Chrisitianity? The Golden Rule was around before that. And if someone socks you in the cheek your really going to turn and offer them the other?
Historically, it wasnt around before the bible existed. Has DK said, "in a manner of speaking". Even historians trying to place events in the bible do it at around 6 thosand years ago.


So far I have turned the other cheek, with the exception of my daughter. Anyone slaps her and I'll beat them into next weak.

You need to spend a day at a homeless shelter if you think Christians dont really live up to, "turn the other cheek".
People dont always see it as a weekness.

Inviolable, it's very silly for you to claim that Christian values absolutely did not exist before Christianity, or even before Judaism. You could not possibly know that.

Commandments are not as plain and dry as people lead on.

For example: "Thou shalt not kill".... does NOT just mean "you shouldn't kill or murder"... it ALSO deals with the killing of someone's reputation, as in gossip and slander. Most commandments are much deeper than what you read on the surface.

And "love thy neighbor" is pretty much ANTI-captialism... you should do anything you can to get AHEAD of your neighbor in capitalism.

I don't think Christianity is the first to say certain things.. but I think Christianity definitely embraced and reinforced certain ideals, AND introduced new ones. Instead of being a peaceful pacifist, be a peaceful activist. Shine before men. Let them see your gladness and content. Ancient religions were more about meditation and personal journies (not to say that is wrong)

If America had anything to do with Christian values anymore, we would not be declaring "war" on everything.

We could learn a lot about real Christian values from people living right under our noses. (http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/10052007/watch4.html)

Let me just point out that the 5 commandments not directly connected to God is not exclusive to Christianity (or Judaism). They are fundamental principles of human society throughout history.

Not all societies.

God has killed thousands, declared war, and done all that stuff. He has every right if he is the supreme ruler. God can do whatever he wants with us. He has allowed horrid catastrophies to happen... but people learned from it, and sometimes it's done to "wake the people"... I'm not God so I won't pretend to know for sure. I just happen to believe certain things..

God has killed thousands, declared war, and done all that stuff.

Absolutely....if what his "holy" book tells us is correct.

He has every right if he is the supreme ruler.

Ok.

But do not then let the Xtians try to make the case that he is --at the same time-- some sort of "loving" god.

To assert both is a contradiction. Either one case exists, or the other.

A "loving god" would never order the slaughter of infants, for any reason.

I just happen to believe certain things..

You have your mind -as do virtually all superstitionists-- compartmentalized so that you can hold two contradictory "beliefs" in it at the same time.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is impotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Whence then is evil?"

It is a total contradiction. If God is omnibenevolent, then he does not want evil to exist. If God is omniscient, then he must know about all evil in the world. If God is omnipotent, then he must be capable of doing something about it. Which leads us back to.................

If God is omnibenevolent, then he would not want evil to exist. And on and on, ad infinitum.

Commandments are not as plain and dry as people lead on.
For example: "Thou shalt not kill".... does NOT just mean "you shouldn't kill or murder"... it ALSO deals with the killing of someone's reputation, as in gossip and slander. The only debate I've heard about "kill" is whether or not it only means an unjustified killing such as murder and manslaughter.
Here's more: http://www.tektonics.org/lp/nokilling.html

Wouldn't the act you're describing more likely fall under the Ninth Commandment: "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. (Exodus 20:16)"

You could not possibly know that.


Thats true.

You have your mind -as do virtually all superstitionists-- compartmentalized so that you can hold two contradictory "beliefs" in it at the same time.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is impotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Whence then is evil?"

You are talking in two extremes... either he WANTS us to suffer or he DOESN'T... Like you, I'm not going to pretend to Know what God thinks, I can only tell you what my opinion is. I think suffering helps people later in life. I think suffering hurts people and screws their life up. Could God step in and end the suffering? Yes, but even though he loves us, he has every right to torture, torment, and make things not go our way. Sometimes "torturing" someone by having them lose their house, a loved one, something material, etc... helps them to realize how important life is, and how unimportant materials are. It helps us to see the bigger picture. Now I'm guessing you will say "why would anyone worship a God who would torture the people he loves?"... and I would reply with "He created us, he can do whatever he wants. The only way into heaven is through him". I would never judge God by human standards, as you do. God is so beyond our comprehension, to think a human mind could grasp it is egotistical, and also unwilling to think there are bigger things out there than him/her.

It is a total contradiction. If God is omnibenevolent, then he does not want evil to exist.

No, omnibenevolence is unconditional and infinite love... that doesn't mean everything in the world will be perfect. God allows evil in this world to test us, in my opinion. He could easily control us like string puppets, but I think he wants to see us mature. He watches and nudges us from a distance... in my opinion.

If God is omniscient, then he must know about all evil in the world.

Yes, omniscient is knowing everything in the universe, which would include evil.

If God is omnipotent, then he must be capable of doing something about it. Which leads us back to.................

Omnipotence, of course meaning all-powerful, is a trait God has (in my opinion). He absolutely is capable of doing something about it.. but you aren't entering in the concept of "tough love"... why would a billionaire spoil the crap out of his child? The child would never mature, never learn life lessons, and be completely unable to live on his/her own.


You cycle is interesting, but it fails to address all of the issues at hand.

The old testament clearly says that God (Christian) makes the peace and creates the evil. Which is one reason (of many) that I reject him.

And which passage are you referring to

"True Freedom is slavery to God"

I must ask why you think that this statement vomitting irony makes sense.

And which passage are you referring to


Isaiah 45:7 (Whole Chapter)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

2 Chronicles 34:28 (Whole Chapter)
Behold, I will gather thee to thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered to thy grave in peace, neither shall thine eyes see all the evil that I will bring upon this place, and upon the inhabitants of the same. So they brought the king word again.

"True Freedom is slavery to God"

I must ask why you think that this statement vomitting irony makes sense.

It doesn't make sense, I don't expect non-believers to follow it. Did it make sense for the disciples of Jesus to pick up, leave their homes, and follow him through the desert and cities? We do things every day in our own lives that don't make sense.

I, however, choose to follow it. That's just my thing though...

Isaiah 45:7 (Whole Chapter)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

2 Chronicles 34:28 (Whole Chapter)
Behold, I will gather thee to thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered to thy grave in peace, neither shall thine eyes see all the evil that I will bring upon this place, and upon the inhabitants of the same. So they brought the king word again.

Well God DID create the universe, if you so want to discuss that theory. However, he obviously doesn't rule with an iron fist(at least these days), and have us all on strings as finger puppets. He gives us free will. Evil and sin are the absence of God. God is everywhere, but when people choose to indulge, be tempted, etc... they are walking away from God, hence the "absence" word being used. These are my beliefs, and you can think what you want about them. Perfection is in heaven, not on earth.

Decka

Individual and personal beliefs are valid. Yours, Mine, a Moslems, a Jews, a Buddist, a Wiccans, a Pagans. All beliefs that are personal and individual are valid. Only the Universally applied belief is invalid.

Yea, you said that in the other thread...

Well God DID create the universe, if you so want to discuss that theory. However, he obviously doesn't rule with an iron fist(at least these days), and have us all on strings as finger puppets. He gives us free will. Evil and sin are the absence of God. God is everywhere, but when people choose to indulge, be tempted, etc... they are walking away from God, hence the "absence" word being used. These are my beliefs, and you can think what you want about them. Perfection is in heaven, not on earth.

Well for me I tend towards the Living Universe God Type. When the Universe was created God was Created or reborn. When God was created/reborn the Universe was Created. And this is an ongoing proccess Happening over and over and over again. Since all things are from God there is no walking away from God. Free Will cannot exist without valid choices to choose from. As for Evil or Sin being the absence of God, according to the O/T God created Evil. So if one commit's Evil how can God be absent since God created Evil?

... either he WANTS us to suffer or he DOESN'T... Like you, I'm not going to pretend to Know what God thinks, I can only tell you what my opinion is. I think suffering helps people later in life.

Then you definitely picked the right god to worship.

....even though (God) loves us, he has every right to torture, torment, and make things not go our way.

Ok.

But why would anyone worship a God who would torture the people he loves?

"He created us, he can do whatever he wants".

Ok.

But even if "He can do whatever HE wants"", I cannot imagine why anyone would worship an omnipotent deity who orders infants to be hacked to death.

For ANY reason, under ANY circumstance. If this being was omnipotent as he is claimed to be, then he could have easily done something different that would not have lead to the infants in question being slaughtered like vermin.

I would never judge God by human standards, as you do.

Of course not. If you did, you might suffer a jarring return to rationality and begin to recognize the being you're worshiping for the monstrous, murderous, infant-slaughtering deity he is.

God is so beyond our comprehension,........

Riiiight. So is the Tooth Fairy. But that doesn't mean i'm going to pray to it.

No, omnibenevolence is unconditional and infinite love...

If Yahweh had ""unconditional and infinite love"" then he would have loved the children of the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites.

Instead he ordered that all of them --every woman, every infant, every animal--- should be killed. Everything that breathes. Cut through with the sword.


DEUT 20; 16)But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

17) But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:

No matter HOW you try to spin this or rationalize it away, it is true that no "loving god" would order the wanton slaughter of innocent women and babies that had never done anything that would merit them being sentenced to death.

God allows evil in this world to test us, in my opinion.

He not only allows it pal. He orders it. As the two verses above incontrovertibly prove.

He can do whatever he wants. You go ahead and judge God, I'll beg for mercy for my sins. deal..

You go ahead and judge God, I'll beg for mercy for my sins.

How ironic that you, who have probably never harmed a living soul, would 'beg for mercy' for supposed wrongdoings from a supernatural deity who has --according to his own holy Book-- mercilessly committed the wholesale slaughter of tens of thousands of innocents.

______________________________

Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish mystic --who was his own Father and who was sent from some otherworldly plane of existence above-- can grant you immortality if you symbolically eat his flesh and send a telepathic message to him that you forever accept him as your Master, so that he can then remove an evil force from your "soul" that is present in humanity because a woman --who was made from man's rib bone-- was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

God has killed thousands, declared war, and done all that stuff. He has every right if he is the supreme ruler. God can do whatever he wants with us. He has allowed horrid catastrophies to happen... but people learned from it, and sometimes it's done to "wake the people"... I'm not God so I won't pretend to know for sure. I just happen to believe certain things..


Now if the Bible is the Word of God (proven) and if God is real (proven) then this would be the perfect example of Free Will. If a person knows that the bible is in fact the word of God. That God is in fact real and the bible correctly discribes God. Then that person now has the ability to use his/her free will. The person can accept this God as is or reject this God free will has now been applied.

Personally if the bible is truly Gods words, if God is truly as He is discribed in the bible then I would reject Him on the grounds that I would rather serve an eternity in Hell then to service and worship such a cold blooded monster as the bible says God is. I would be excersizing my free will.

Now a question I would have for you is this. If your God has granted free will to either follow Him or reject Him, and that this is a gift from God. By what right does his followers deny free will to his creations. If people choose to reject this God and his laws and commandments. Should they not be able to live their physical lives accordingly. By what authority do the followers claim the right to enforce the laws and commandments of their God upon people who have rejected their God?

How ironic that you, who have probably never harmed a living soul, would 'beg for mercy' for supposed wrongdoings from a supernatural deity who has --according to his own holy Book-- mercilessly committed the wholesale slaughter of tens of thousands of innocents.


Call it Ironic... go for it. God punished those who were not "his people" all throughout the Old Testament.

Again, you are judging God by human standards.. that is something I won't do.

You bet your ass I'll "beg for mercy"... I'll ask him to forgive me for cursing, for defaming another's name, for putting money and my daily activities ahead of God, for not staying sexually pure, for my impure thoughts when I see a cute girl in the college library (lol) etc... you get the point.

FT, all we have here is you, a non-believer, and me, a believer. I'm not going to try to convert you, or PROVE to you anything.. you believe what you want.

Personally if the bible is truly Gods words, if God is truly as He is discribed in the bible then I would reject Him on the grounds that I would rather serve an eternity in Hell then to service and worship such a cold blooded monster as the bible says God is. I would be excersizing my free will.

You'd be a fool, religion aside. Our lifetime is only a link in an eternal chain. You would take eternal punishment and torture because you "don't like what God does"? I don't think it is YOU who calls the shots here... and I don't think it is YOU who should be judging.

Now a question I would have for you is this. If your God has granted free will to either follow Him or reject Him, and that this is a gift from God. By what right does his followers deny free will to his creations. If people choose to reject this God and his laws and commandments. Should they not be able to live their physical lives accordingly. By what authority do the followers claim the right to enforce the laws and commandments of their God upon people who have rejected their God?

Tell me where his followers have "enforced" his laws and commandments on other people.

I can name two: Gay marriage and Abortion, and those are being slowly more assimilated into our society.

But the bigger picture is this.. you are implying that God is going to control us with strings if we try to deny another's free will. Have you ever heard of rape? Murder? Do you think those people WANTED to be killed? God gives you free will to follow his word or not, in my opinion, but he won't coordinate a stationary and almighty rule like you have mentioned, IMO. You can not believe, but don't try to play victim if someone brings up religion, or tells you of Jesus in a conversation. What if I didn't want to see any more sexual innuendos on TV? Should I expect them to just all disappear? No.. so what do I do? I don't watch those channels, and I slam them for their content. All you have to do is politely change the subject or tell the person that you don't wish to speak of the subject, and I think you'll find the "problem" defused quite quickly.

Decka

Well thankfully My God is not the Christian God so the eternal damnation does not worry me. There are plenty of laws that exist in America whose primary purpose is to enforce Christian law. Abortion, Stem Cell and Gay rights are a very small sample. Since the Christian God is not my God and as such has no authority over me, I will judge and question him as much as I wish. He may be the school yard bully in his yard but he is nothing in the yard I play in.

The Christian God by his very nature and his own book is a Dictator. The United States of America stands for everything that the Christian God dispises. Free Will, individual rights and freedoms. Freedom from Religious dictator ships. Freedom from Torture and being Tormented at the whim of some sychotic dictator. The United States of America could also be called the Anti God Nation because we believe in the complete opposite of the Christian God.

With the history of the Christian God being what it is. It relieves me to no small end to know that he only has authority over those who have sold their souls to him. I still have my soul so he is no threat to me.

Decka

Well thankfully My God is not the Christian God so the eternal damnation does not worry me. There are plenty of laws that exist in America whose primary purpose is to enforce Christian law. Abortion, Stem Cell and Gay rights are a very small sample.

I need more examples than Stem Cell and Gay Rights.. I won't even put Abortion in that category because the bible says nothing about "abortion".. it's about if the "fetus" is actually considered a human being or not.

Since the Christian God is not my God and as such has no authority over me, I will judge and question him as much as I wish.

You have every right to do that... I won't take that path, but by all means.. go for it.

He may be the school yard bully in his yard but he is nothing in the yard I play in.

Schoolyard bully? He very well could be the reason you exist. And he sends his son to die for our sins.. that BULLY!!! lol.

The Christian God by his very nature and his own book is a Dictator. The United States of America stands for everything that the Christian God dispises. Free Will, individual rights and freedoms. Freedom from Religious dictator ships. Freedom from Torture and being Tormented at the whim of some sychotic dictator. The United States of America could also be called the Anti God Nation because we believe in the complete opposite of the Christian God.

I don't know about that one, and at the same time it's mildly ture. I will agree that America is not "God's nation" by any means, and the way that capitalism allows those with cash to put themselves in a "bubble" and not care about others... THAT is very "Anti-God". But God allows free will, individual rights have everything to do with government and nothing to do with religion. America doesn't force you to go to Church, and it doesn't force you to read the bible. I think you are using vague word usage to your advantage. "Freedoms"? God "Freed" his people from Egypt... God "Freed" Paul from his prison cell.. I think it all comes down to my favorite ideals: Humility and Love. Have your freedoms, but put them in priority. God comes first. And know that God Loves you, and even if he allows something "horrid" to happen to you on earth, in a way he's doing you a favor by allowing you to enter heaven, IF you are believer. And Love God back, cherish every day he gives you, and ask him to use you... That is what I think... Your thoughts are of course your own.

With the history of the Christian God being what it is. It relieves me to no small end to know that he only has authority over those who have sold their souls to him. I still have my soul so he is no threat to me.

Well if you are looking forward to Hell... I'd get some strong sun-screen, and get used to unbearable pain and suffering. I think you are mistaken on the power of God, he has power over all. Whether or not you choose to accept him is of course up to you.. These of course are my beliefs.. you are welcome to believe otherwise.

Decka

Sorry your God and his rules apply to his followers only. Other Gods and there rules apply only to their followers. My God and his rules say I go to heaven. I can live with that

By the way I like how you handled your responce to my thread. May your God bless and be with you always.

FT, all we have here is you, a non-believer, and me, a believer. I'm not going to try to convert you, or PROVE to you anything...you believe what you want.

??!?

You're the one among the two of us who **believes what he wants to believe**.

I believe only that which is reasonable and that makes sense.

Unlike you, rationality --and not superstition -- determines what I will believe or not believe.

??!?

You're the one among the two of us who **believes what he wants to believe**.

I believe only that which is reasonable and that makes sense.

Unlike you, rationality --and not superstition -- determines what I will believe or not believe.

FreeThinker

I like to point out to Christian Theists this point. A Atheist is an Atheist because no God or Gods have ever given them any evidence what so ever that God or Gods exist. I wonder If a being appeared to you and offered proof that would satisfy you as to it being a God. Would you still be an ATheist or would you atleast become a Deist.

Even if you became a Deist believing that atleast that particular God actually existed the mere existence of a God does not require worshipping said God. You still have the right to reject that God and His authority though if the God actually exists there might be some penalty involved. But you would atleast have the choice to either follow that God or reject that God.

If the Christian beliefs are true. If there is one universal sychotic God. Then this God is the creator of the Atheists because it would be a simple matter for him to make them atleast Deists, by simply giving proof to the Atheist and making the Atheist atleast a Deist if not a follower.

So If the One Universal Sychotic Christian God is real. The Atheists must serve a purpose because if God did not want Atheists he could easily turn them into atleast Deists. But by not doing so he is condoning Atheist beliefs. When Christians actually try to convert Atheists to Theists they are actually working against their Gods will. For it is the will of their God that Atheists exist.

Damn I am good :woohoo:

FreeThinker

I like to point out to Christian Theists this point. A Atheist is an Atheist because no God or Gods have ever given them any evidence what so ever that God or Gods exist.

True.

I wonder If a being appeared to you and offered proof that would satisfy you as to it being a God.

If a 'being' appeared before me and performed any miraculous act whatsoever that was scientifically verifiable and repeatable, then that 'being' would have demonstrated the existence of supernaturalism.

If this 'being' could, through no trickery but through actual proven, verifiable supernatural means, cause one mustard seed to instantly become two mustard seeds, then the supernatural would have been demonstrated to exist. (note; let us keep in mind here that in a hundred thousand years of man's existence on this planet, in a trillion interactions of humans with one another, no verifiable, repeatable instance of supernaturalism has ever been demonstrated. None. Zero. )

But IF that should happen, then supernatural exists. And once supernaturalism exists, anything is possible.

Leprechauns, demons , gods, the Tooth Fairy, unicorns, men walking on water........anything.

That does not however mean that I would instantly grant that a being exists --a "god"-- who created the entire universe.

Would you still be an ATheist or would you atleast become a Deist.

I would --IF that were to happen-- become someone who acknowledged the existence of the supernatural. That does not automatically translate into my become a person that agrees that a "god" or "gods" exists. The existence of a god would become exponentially more plausible --once supernaturalism had been shown to exist-- but not proven.

More specifically, even if the actual being known as Yahweh made himself known to the entire human race by descending bodily from heaven in a chariot of fire, I would NOT worship such a being, unless He informed the world that all the things said about him in the Xtian Bible were false.

IOW, I will never 'worship' any omnipotent supernatural entity who has --as BibleGod has done, if we are to believe that compendium of nonsense and fables known as 'the Bible'-- ordered the wholesale slaughter of entire cities full of human beings.

True.



If a 'being' appeared before me and performed any miraculous act whatsoever that was scientifically verifiable and repeatable, then that 'being' would have demonstrated the existence of supernaturalism.

If this 'being' could, through no trickery but through actual proven, verifiable supernatural means, cause one mustard seed to instantly become two mustard seeds, then the supernatural would have been demonstrated to exist. (note; let us keep in mind here that in a hundred thousand years of man's existence on this planet, in a trillion interactions of humans with one another, no verifiable, repeatable instance of supernaturalism has ever been demonstrated. None. Zero. )

But IF that should happen, then supernatural exists. And once supernaturalism exists, anything is possible.

Leprechauns, demons , gods, the Tooth Fairy, unicorns, men walking on water........anything.

That does not however mean that I would instantly grant that a being exists --a "god"-- who created the entire universe.
.

Hence my signature.

Hence my signature.

:rolleyes:

Your signature does not apply in any way to what I just said. I'd like to see you try to explain how it does.

I never said it would require **ten years of research from scientists** before I would "believe" in the supernatural.

A supernatural being could cause me --in one second-- to completely reverse my opinion about supernaturalism by demonstrating to me something that is impossible to do sans supernaturalism. Turn one fish into two fishes. Make a rock move one inch if done by by supernatural means.

In countless thousand of years of humans living on this planet, not one such instance of a proven, verifiable, repeatable supernaturalist act exists.

To anyone possessing a rational mind, that prompts a hypothesis and a reasoned conclusion; ...... "supernaturalism" is non-existent.

Ergo, "gods" are non-existent.

:rolleyes:

Your signature does not apply in any way to what I just said. I'd like to see you try to explain how it does.

I never said it would require **ten years of research from scientists** before I would "believe" in the supernatural.

A supernatural being could cause me --in one second-- to completely reverse my opinion about supernaturalism by demonstrating to me something that is impossible to do sans supernaturalism. Turn one fish into two fishes. Make a rock move one inch if done by by supernatural means.

In countless thousand of years of humans living on this planet, not one such instance of a proven, verifiable, repeatable supernaturalist act exists.

To anyone possessing a rational mind, that prompts a hypothesis and a reasoned conclusion; ...... "supernaturalism" is non-existent.

Ergo, "gods" are non-existent.
O.K. I apologize.

True.



If a 'being' appeared before me and performed any miraculous act whatsoever that was scientifically verifiable and repeatable, then that 'being' would have demonstrated the existence of supernaturalism.

If this 'being' could, through no trickery but through actual proven, verifiable supernatural means, cause one mustard seed to instantly become two mustard seeds, then the supernatural would have been demonstrated to exist. (note; let us keep in mind here that in a hundred thousand years of man's existence on this planet, in a trillion interactions of humans with one another, no verifiable, repeatable instance of supernaturalism has ever been demonstrated. None. Zero. )

But IF that should happen, then supernatural exists. And once supernaturalism exists, anything is possible.

Leprechauns, demons , gods, the Tooth Fairy, unicorns, men walking on water........anything.

That does not however mean that I would instantly grant that a being exists --a "god"-- who created the entire universe.



I would --IF that were to happen-- become someone who acknowledged the existence of the supernatural. That does not automatically translate into my become a person that agrees that a "god" or "gods" exists. The existence of a god would become exponentially more plausible --once supernaturalism had been shown to exist-- but not proven.

More specifically, even if the actual being known as Yahweh made himself known to the entire human race by descending bodily from heaven in a chariot of fire, I would NOT worship such a being, unless He informed the world that all the things said about him in the Xtian Bible were false.

IOW, I will never 'worship' any omnipotent supernatural entity who has --as BibleGod has done, if we are to believe that compendium of nonsense and fables known as 'the Bible'-- ordered the wholesale slaughter of entire cities full of human beings.

Bingo. That was the whole point of the thread. Even if God or Gods could be proven or do prove their own existance does their mere existance warrent the worshipping of him/them. As you noted about Yahweh if he/it is as the O/T depicts him/it I would not worship such a God. If Jesus showed up and did not immediately send his fundies into the eternal torment of hell I would not bother with him either

If Jesus showed up and did not immediately send his fundies into the eternal torment of hell I would not bother with him either
Wow.

Wow.


Inviolable, Please note that I did specify fundies. Not the Jesus followers. Just wanted to clarigy that for you LOL

Inviolable, Please note that I did specify fundies. Not the Jesus followers. Just wanted to clarigy that for you LOL

Yes but you said,

immediately send his fundies into the eternal torment of hell
Thats pretty harsh. I wouldn't wish an eternal torment of hell on anyone.

Fundies say and do things that are upsetting I agree. But they're not wishing anyone goes to hell. Thats their belief, that people will go to hell and suffer eternally but that isn't their wish.

I believe it too. That people are going to hell. That in no way states that I want it to happen.

Fundies have a guilty conscious so to speak.
They "believe" people are going to hell so they say and do things they think will help keep people from going there.

The difference between me and them is that I understand no one is going to listen to you unless they want to. I also believe that it's entirely in Gods hands.

They press on to get the word out, I try and show people what God has done for me.
In my opinion forcing the word on people only makes them want to reject it.
But, telling people how your life is might actually make them think.

Fundies just don't understand that, so they're trying to "save" souls anyway they can.
Only, they're not the ones doing the "saving" God is.

You see?

Their belief kind of forces them to do the things they do because they don't "want" for anyone to go to hell.

It's all in a persons perspective and how they translate the word of God.

Inviolable

The Fundimentalists mind set is what caused the witch hunts, crusades, the destruction of entire civilizations. Their mind set is that they have the God given right to impose their beliefs upon others. There is no love involved in believing that killing a person because they do not worship your God or submit to your authority.

Homosexuals/Transgenders have been brutally murdered not because some loving and caring Fundimentalist was trying to save their souls. They died because of the hatred of a bigot who justified the murder because these people were abominations in the eyes of God and deserved death. Abortion doctors have not been assassinated because of a Loviing and caring fundamentalist was trying to protect the life of an unborn. They died because of the hate filled desires of someone who believed they had the God given right to kill evil doers.

I will bet dollars to donuts that every white racist who lynched, murdered, or tortured a black believed he was a good chrisitan. Believed that the white race was made superior to the blacks by God himself. And those Uppity blacks had no right to claim equality when God made them inferior to whites. The Fundamentalist beliefs have justified more Death, and Terror and Blood letting then any single cause in history.

So yes Fundamentalist are worthy of being sent into eternal Hell and torment. Unfortunately since there is no Hell. They will simply go through the Life Review which is actually a far more just penalty. Then a Hell is. But please do not try to say that Fundamentalists operate on any emotion other then Hate and bigotry for history shows this is not so.

Take Care and may your God bless and be with you always

Inviolable

The Fundimentalists mind set is what caused the witch hunts, crusades, the destruction of entire civilizations. Their mind set is that they have the God given right to impose their beliefs upon others. There is no love involved in believing that killing a person because they do not worship your God or submit to your authority.

Homosexuals/Transgenders have been brutally murdered not because some loving and caring Fundimentalist was trying to save their souls. They died because of the hatred of a bigot who justified the murder because these people were abominations in the eyes of God and deserved death. Abortion doctors have not been assassinated because of a Loviing and caring fundamentalist was trying to protect the life of an unborn. They died because of the hate filled desires of someone who believed they had the God given right to kill evil doers.

I will bet dollars to donuts that every white racist who lynched, murdered, or tortured a black believed he was a good chrisitan. Believed that the white race was made superior to the blacks by God himself. And those Uppity blacks had no right to claim equality when God made them inferior to whites. The Fundamentalist beliefs have justified more Death, and Terror and Blood letting then any single cause in history.

So yes Fundamentalist are worthy of being sent into eternal Hell and torment. Unfortunately since there is no Hell. They will simply go through the Life Review which is actually a far more just penalty. Then a Hell is. But please do not try to say that Fundamentalists operate on any emotion other then Hate and bigotry for history shows this is not so.

Take Care and may your God bless and be with you always

Huh.

You learn something new every day.

I will bet dollars to donuts that every white racist who lynched, murdered, or tortured a black believed he was a good chrisitan. Believed that the white race was made superior to the blacks by God himself. And those Uppity blacks had no right to claim equality when God made them inferior to whites.

Absolutely.

I personally knew members of the KKK while growing up in Mississippi.

A HUGE part of what it was to be a Klansman was the acknowledgment that they were all "Christians" and that the 'Lord' sanctioned their activities......it was a decidedly 'Christian organization' and crosses and religious symbols were very predominant.

If the KKK had found out that one its members was NOT a staunch believer in Jeezus and the whole religious rigamarole having to do with Christianity, they would have taken a view of that member almost as dismal as that of the 'coons' that they felt so compelled to terrorize.

Absolutely.
I personally knew members of the KKK while growing up in Mississippi.


I tried but I couldn't fight the urge to ask.

You "personally" knew members of the KKK?

that would explain his negative outlook on christianity...

When I started driving trucks cross country. I noticed that in many places you would see three crosses on hills or in fields. I commented to my co-driver about this and he told me that the three crosses marked the KKK boundries. I went on the CB and asked other drivers if this was true and all responded that yes the triple cross was used by the KKK to show their boundries.

that would explain his negative outlook on christianity...

Huh? Do you know anything about the Klan at all?

I know that killing black people and being racist aren't christian values... hence why they are called the KKK, not a sect of christianity.