"There will be a signed peace treaty by the time I leave office (http://www.walter-c-uhler.com/Reviews/bullshit.html)."


:rolleyes:



http://www.mnftiu.cc/mnftiu.cc/images/gywo.years.gif

"It wasn't a peace-making trip, it was a business trip (http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?forumID=4023&edition=2&ttl=20080115112532). He sold arms worth billions to Saudi-Arabia - a country that is run by an extreme islamic government, a country with one of the worst human rights records and the country where most of the 9/11 terrorists came from." - Stephan, Germany

You're a fool, Shaman.

Sure, the US sold arms to Saudi Arabia under the Bush Presidency.
As they did under the Clinton Presidency.
And Reagan, Bush Sr., Carter, Ford, Nixon, Johnson, and Kennedy.

The US has sold arms, military goods, services, and training to over 160 nations worldwide since before most of the allforums posters were even born.

Whether by the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) program, or by Direct Commercial Sale (DCS), we do a brisk business in arms with our International friends, partners, allies, and even with nations who just might harbor us ill. (In order to help preserve a balance of power in certain regions.)

These sales are an important arm of US Diplomacy worldwide, and are conducted in full view of the voting public, and under the province of the Arms Export Control Act (AECA) and the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR).

Get it?
Arms sales to Saudi Arabia aren't just a GEE DUBYA BUSH thing.
They were a Clinton thing too.

Do your freaking homework every now and then, ok?

Here's a list of the only nations with which the US currently does not allow FMS or DCS sales of arms:

Cuba
Nigeria
Vietnam
UNITA (in Angola)
Cyprus
North Korea
Yemen
Armenia
Haiti
Rwanda
Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro)
Azerbaijan
Iran
Somalia
Zaire
Belarus
Sudan
Burma
Liberia
Syria
China
Libya
Tajikistan
and
Iraq (this may be changing soon, as we prepare to equip the Iraqi defense forces with airplanes and spare parts)

You're a fool, Shaman.

Sure, the US sold arms to Saudi Arabia under the Bush Presidency.
How conveniently it was managed, during a Peace Making trip, huh.....they were simply trying to save energy (by cutting-down on the number of trips), right.....killing two birds with one stone, as it were???? :rolleyes:

You're clutching at straws, friend.

Just admit you made a fool of yourself, and quietly back out of the thread.
There's no embarassment, and your friends will understand.

(You do have friends, right?)

Here's a list of the only nations with which the US currently does not allow FMS or DCS sales of arms:
You mean overtly (http://dir.salon.com/story/opinion/blumenthal/2004/04/22/woodward/), of course. :rolleyes:

Sure, the US sold arms to Saudi Arabia under the Bush Presidency.
As they did under the Clinton Presidency.

Yeah.

And of course everyone knows................

Two wrongs make a right.

_______________________________

Like Pavlovian dogs, hundreds of millions of American citizens drool at the sounds of the trumpets of war blasted into their minds by the television monitor, eager to satisfy the destructive cravings of inner conscious propagated throughout the citizenry by an ingenious mechanism of mass manipulation.

Well it is always important to put things in historical context... acting like Bush is the first president to sell arms to these countries is obviously false reporting, a scare tactic, and would make Dan Rather proud. But I wouldn't expect anything less from Shaman. I think I would trust that a piano wouldn't crush my body falling from the top of a 30 story building on top of me more than some of Shaman's biased rhetoric.

Well it is always important to put things in historical context... acting like Bush is the first president to sell arms to these countries is obviously false reporting........
Sooooooooo.....advertising it as a Peace Making trip was a mere typo, right? :rolleyes:

acting like Bush is the first president to sell arms to these countries is obviously false reporting, a scare tactic,

Except that no one has suggested any such thing.

I realize the irony of the idea.. but is it not possible to go overseas to push for a peace treaty and to sell arms THAT unplausable?

I mean, we ARE trying to cut down our CARBON FOOTPRINTS.. right? Al Gore would be proud, and jealous.

I realize the irony of the idea.. but is it not possible to go overseas to push for a peace treaty and to sell arms THAT unplausable?

http://www.internetweekly.org/images/messiah_complex.jpg

*

"Just hours after George Bush's arrival, the US administration officially notified congress (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/DE9B2738-71B2-4ECD-8D82-DA527AFC2992.htm) of the controversial plan, part of a wider multibillion-dollar deal with Gulf Arabs states.

The announcement begins a 30-day review period in which congress could try to block the deal, which includes satellite-guided weaponry and high-tech munitions.

The deal has alarmed Israel and some congressmen since it was unveiled last July, as Saudi Arabia refuses to recognise the Jewish state."

Alas all US Administrations have, as has been pointed out, sold arms to Saudi Arabia.

The Saudi lack of democratic values is quite disturbing, and some pressure should be brought against the ruling family to start a program of handing power to the people of that state.

Alas all US Administrations have, as has been pointed out, sold arms to Saudi Arabia.

The Saudi lack of democratic values is quite disturbing, and some pressure should be brought against the ruling family to start a program of handing power to the people of that state.
they had local elections recently.:confused:

I don't know what the heck happened during that "trip to Saudi Arabia"... Shaman seems to know, I guess he was there.

You can disagree with us selling arms to other countries.. but your disagreement should be a generalization.. not some attack on the sitting president. It is already well documented that many other presidents did this very thing. Does it make it right? no.. some people will say it's right, others will say it's wrong. But put things in context. Otherwise.. you are being irresponsible.

However, I realize that if I look up "irresponsible reporting" in the dictionary (not all one word i know LOL)... it will simply say "Mr. Shaman", followed by "Dan Rather"

they had local elections recently.:confused:
They did, in which only a small portion of the population were entitled to vote.
And to a council with no teeth. A bit of a cosmetic exercise.

I don't know what the heck happened during that "trip to Saudi Arabia"... Shaman seems to know, I guess he was there.

You can disagree with us selling arms to other countries.. but your disagreement should be a generalization.. not some attack on the sitting president. It is already well documented that many other presidents did this very thing. Does it make it right? no.. some people will say it's right, others will say it's wrong. But put things in context. Otherwise.. you are being irresponsible.

However, I realize that if I look up "irresponsible reporting" in the dictionary (not all one word i know LOL)... it will simply say "Mr. Shaman", followed by "Dan Rather"
Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee......I thought any country that "...refuses to recognise the Jewish state" was always considered Evil???? :rolleyes:

International diplomacy is a funny thing;
Israel is one of the US's biggest arms customers.
And Saudi Arabia knows full well that we offer arms, support, services and training to Israel. And yet they continue to spend mega-bucks buying our aircraft, missiles, and support.

I reckon those sand-dwellers are a little more big-picture-minded and understanding than you, Shaman.

Israel is one of our biggest arms customers.

As well as being --behind the U.S.-- the number two exporter of State terrorism on the planet.

They did, in which only a small portion of the population were entitled to vote.
And to a council with no teeth. A bit of a cosmetic exercise.
it's a start...the kingdom isn't even 100 years old, and most of the country still lives by medieval tribal values.

International diplomacy is a funny thing;
Israel is one of our biggest FMS customers.
And Saudi Arabia knows full well that we offer arms, support, services and training to Israel. And yet they continue to spend mega-bucks buying our aircraft, missiles, and support.

I reckon those sand-dwellers are a little more big-picture-minded and understanding than you, Shaman.
they know value when they see it:thumbs:

As well as being --behind the U.S.-- the number two exporter of State terrorism on the planet.


"Dirty Jews. Toadies to the Corporate American Cabal."
"The number two exporter of State terrorism on the planet."
Or, "Hebe Puppetmasters to the tools in the White House."

Either way your mind seems to percieve it, you get to sit back and smirk at how much injustice there is in the world, and all because we can't all sit down and sing kumbaya with the likes of Che Guevara and Fidel Castro.

Is that your message, Freethinker?
You must remind me every now and then.
Sometimes you go off-topic and off-message, and I forget which of your core values it is that we are supposed to be admiring and emulating.

Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee......I thought any country that "...refuses to recognise the Jewish state" was always considered Evil???? :rolleyes:

Did you say... Eeeeeeevil???

http://arbyte.us/blog_archive/2005/11/drevil_million_dollars.jpg

Who said anyone who doesn't recognize the jewish state is EEEEEVIILLLLL

Where is Mr. Bigglesworth!!!

International diplomacy is a funny thing.....
Yeah.....it's a real, fuckin' riot (http://www.soaw.org/sub.php?id=38), sometimes. :rolleyes:

"Dirty Jews. Toadies to the Corporate American Cabal."
"The number two exporter of State terrorism on the planet."
Or, "Hebe Puppetmasters to the tools in the White House."

You lump something I said --the middle statement-- in with two things I have never said.

IOW, you are a liar who is trying to make it seem as if I said something that I have never said.

Nice.

How a dishonest, devious person like you is chosen to have any say so over anything, I will never understand.

Does anyone here know where a person would go to lodge a formal complaint with the moderators of this board against one of the other moderators who is openly attempting to paint a poster as having said something he did not say (IOW, a complaint against a moderator who is a bald faced liar)...........??

Is there even an option for that or a system for looking into such an occurrence??

If anyone knows, I would thank you for that info.

Oh, my apologies then.

I had assumed that you were of the "US=evil, US is the host nation to New York City & the State of Florida, both notorious havens for Jews, Israel is the number two exporter of State terrorism on the planet, therefore Israel = evil also" crowd.

My mistake.


Oh, and if you want to lodge a formal complaint against me as a moderator, take it up with DrewM, Borghunter, and Vilepagan.

They are much more senior Admininstrators than myself, and if there is some appropriate punishment, I trust them to mete it out fairly.

Interesting observation, and I'll share this with you because you're my favorite poster on this entire forum.

It seems like whenever I (or anybody else) post something even remotely ridiculous (in jest or as an ironic device) in your direction, you react violently, and accuse the poster of being a 'liar', 'dishonest', and or 'devious'.

Now, I can concede to being a jerk, a smartass, and/or an uncouth clod.
But I am not a liar.
I value honesty and integrity.

I percieved your earlier remark about Israel being the 'number two exporter of State terrorism' as an anti-sematic slur, and I was being brutally honest about my feelings and perceptions.

Now, I'll point out the difference between that honest observation and a lie.

A lie would be like, "Oh that Freethinker. He's a shoplifter and he never washes his car."

See? Now that would be a bald-faced lie. Number one, I suspect that you would never steal from the Five and Dime, ever. And in my heart of hearts I believe that you maintain and operate your vehicles in a clean and meticulous fashion.

So, for me to say such a spurious and unfounded thing, based upon no other information than my own imagination would be a lie.

In the case of the offensive remarks I made, attributing to you some sort of anti-Jew sentiment, there was some information provided by you that offered a foundation for such a suspicion.

Get it?
There's a difference between a lie, and an honest mistake based upon a faulty perception.


Anyway, I apologized once already.
That's the most you (or anybody) is going to get out of me in the way of atonement.

It seems like whenever I (or anybody else) post something even remotely ridiculous (in jest or as an ironic device) in your direction, you react violently, and accuse the poster of being a 'liar', 'dishonest', and or 'devious'.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

In 9700 or so posts here I believe I have, in response to someone who posted something specifically aimed at me, called someone a liar maybe 4 times.

I percieved your earlier remark about Israel being the 'number two exporter of State terrorism' as an anti-sematic slur, and I was being brutally honest about my feelings and perceptions.

In my posts here I have never said anything of an anti-semitic nature.

My comment was directed at the state of Israel.......the people running that state. That they are or are not 'Jews' is not what is at issue. It is their actions that I am speaking about.

In the case of the offensive remarks I made, attributing to you some sort of anti-Jew sentiment, there was some information provided by you that offered a foundation for such a suspicion.

Get it?

No, I don't.

Voicing criticism for the actions of a nation state --one that is practicing state terrorism-- has nothing to do with calling people "dirty Jews" or "Hebes". I have never done that and do not think of them in that way.

"Dirty Jews. Toadies to the Corporate American Cabal."
"The number two exporter of State terrorism on the planet."
Or, "Hebe Puppetmasters to the tools in the White House."

Frankly Sparky, there had to be a better way to make your point. Racial/ethnic slurs aren't the way. Take some time off.

Frankly Sparky, there had to be a better way to make your point. Racial/ethnic slurs aren't the way. Take some time off.
if you're going to jump overboard and punish someone for calling out someone else's anti-semitism, you could at least give him the courtesy of keeping it in context:rolleyes:

"Dirty Jews. Toadies to the Corporate American Cabal."
"The number two exporter of State terrorism on the planet."
Or, "Hebe Puppetmasters to the tools in the White House."

Either way your mind seems to percieve it, you get to sit back and smirk at how much injustice there is in the world, and all because we can't all sit down and sing kumbaya with the likes of Che Guevara and Fidel Castro.

Is that your message, Freethinker?
You must remind me every now and then.
Sometimes you go off-topic and off-message, and I forget which of your core values it is that we are supposed to be admiring and emulating.

if you're going to jump overboard and punish someone for calling out someone else's anti-semitism, you could at least give him the courtesy of keeping it in context:rolleyes:Opposing the policies of the state of Israel doesn't make one an anti-semite.

Are you ready to call Frogger an anti-semite too?

I don't recall FT ever making an anti-semitic remark. If he is an anti-semite then he's done a remarkable job of concealing it -- and FT isn't exactly the kind of guy who keeps a lid on what he really thinks.

Gotta agree with Sedan here, I simply dont see it.

Its akind to calling me anti American because I cant stand the Bush Administration.