With all the popularity and attention baseball, and all of professional sports, has been getting as far as steroids, HGH, and illegal substances... I thought I'd ask this question.

What is worse for our kids to look up to???

A. Roided up athletes launching skyrocketing baseballs into the stratosphere

B. Stoned, coked-out rappers rappin' about killing cops, smoking bud, and mistreating women.

An interesting question. I selected the roided athletes because I think dishonesty is greater problem than violence in society. For the same reasons, I would rather have a friend who had been convicted of assault than a friend who had been convicted of fraud.

I agree with Leper. While the rappers might be distasteful the athletes are teaching our youngsters that winning at all costs is all that matters. They are cheaters and the lesson should be that cheaters don't win, not that cheaters get big contracts and into the Hall of Fame.

Upon first reading this poll, I truly did not think that *roided* athletes would get a single vote.

To me, music artists like rappers ---with their incessant message of violence, willful ignorance and misogyny--- who are VERY influential to the young, have FAR, far more of a negative influence on society.

Athletes taking steroids is so meaningless and inconsequential to me that I never give it a second thought. They should just make them legal. It's their own bodies they are harming, not anyone else's.

Just my two cents.

i agree with freethinker.... and they mine as well as make them legal... and those who are 'caught' doing such these days either are fibbing their asses off or begging for the publics mercy.... I dont see any athlete going as far as promoting... you might say they are promoting by implying,but that would be like all sports stars that wear Nike promoting sweatshops in 3rd world countries

Upon first reading this poll, I truly did not think that *roided* athletes would get a single vote.

To me, music artists like rappers ---with their incessant message of violence, willful ignorance and misogyny--- who are VERY influential to the young, have FAR, far more of a negative influence on society.

Athletes taking steroids is so meaningless and inconsequential to me that I never give it a second thought. They should just make them legal. It's their own bodies they are harming, not anyone else's.

Just my two cents. I totally agree!! Why should I care if an athelete takes a performance inhancing drug? And I don't think they are promoting steroids especially when they deny taking them!

God Save the Queen... I agree with FT on this one.

Most kids are smart enough to rank sports figures right up there with movie stars... people they might admire, but don't necessarily emulate. Especially life-styles. Many sports figures have been proven unworthy of adoration, whether it's because they got caught betting on games, drinking & driving, taking steriods... or a mutitude of other sins!

But I'm really worried about the future of a generation of kids who grow up dancing to stories glorifying hate, murder, drugs and general mistreatment of their fellow human beings. Now that's scary!

SMW

An interesting question. I selected the roided athletes because I think dishonesty is greater problem than violence in society. For the same reasons, I would rather have a friend who had been convicted of assault than a friend who had been convicted of fraud.

So's youse ruther a Burgular,hog-tie the family and strike fear at the point
of a gun,when burgalizing a home,than merely a Catburgular,
striking when no one is home.
Man... You dense.
Seems this dense bidness is catch'n on.

Why should I care if an athlete takes a performance enhancing drug? It's illegal, so I care. They're illegal for a reason. To let them get away with cheating sends the wrong message and may cause other kids to try the same thing. Rap lyrics, on the other hand, are protected by the First Amendment, as long as they are not considered a hate crime. Same thing as calling government workers "jack-booted Nazis." This was done by the head of the NRA. Despicable, but free speech nonetheless.

[QUOTE=smartmouthwoman]God Save the Queen... I agree with FT on this one.

Most kids are smart enough to rank sports figures right up there with movie stars... people they might admire, but don't necessarily emulate. Especially life-styles. Many sports figures have been proven unworthy of adoration, whether it's because they got caught betting on games, drinking & driving, taking steriods... or a mutitude of other sins!

But I'm really worried about the future of a generation of kids who grow up dancing to stories glorifying hate, murder, drugs and general mistreatment of their fellow human beings. Now that's scary!


******************************************
Fraud doesn't entail Morality as much Ethics.
Violence is more a barbaric,uncivil act that implies a lack of a
Moral Code.I will concur that if a Father teaches his son it's OK to
stick up for his rights and punch back a kid who punched him first,
whereby cheating on a test is strictly Immoral AND Unethical.
The kid who decides to defend his right to not let another kid,
bully him or punch him,is also justified in the act of violence.

Therefore it's OKey DOkey fer me to punch-out a nutter's Post
since Me pops said it was.Even before Steve Jobs and Bill Gates
decided to Build that wooden computer.
So there.

So's youse ruther a Burgular,hog-tie the family and strike fear at the point
of a gun,when burgalizing a home,than merely a Catburgular,
striking when no one is home.
Man... You dense.
Seems this dense bidness is catch'n on.

Not exactly. Try reading my response again.

An interesting question. I selected the roided athletes because I think dishonesty is greater problem than violence in society. For the same reasons, I would rather have a friend who had been convicted of assault than a friend who had been convicted of fraud.I think dishonesty in our society is a big problem for sure. I tie that in with an overall loss of innocence/morality that the people in our country have been going through for the last 60 or so years.

That said, I'd much rather someone lied to me than club me over the head. :)




*on edit* At the time of my post the vote was 5-5. Hard for me to get my mind around that.

Part of the problem is being asked to choose between bad or worse. I'd just as soon kids didn't have to experience either one. But, to some degree, that decision is up to their parents.... just the way it should be.

I'm really worried about the future of a generation of kids who grow up dancing to stories glorifying hate, murder, drugs and general mistreatment of their fellow human beings. Now that's scary!


Absolutely.

Especially when --as is the case with rap music-- male youths are being taught that it's just a natural facet of contemporary American life to treat women like sexual beasts who have zero worth besides the fact that they possess a vagina.

I agree with Leper that dishonesty is a worse problem than violence, but I chose the rappers because I think that their overall effect is worse (because they have more influence). Ten people lying is better than one person murdering in my book.

(However, I don't have a problem with rappers glorifying drug use - most other musicians, not to mention movie stars, really do the same thing. The violence is the worst part. Degrading women, like FT mentioned, is another problem.)

My point of making this poll was to put things in perspective.. and I am shocked to see how many people think lying about or using steroids is worse than having kids look up to people who represent killing cops, doing drugs, and treating women like shit.

Lying is bad, but all those things that certain rappers represent are far worse. Where is Congress to bring Snoop Dogg, Ice Cube, Dr. Dre, and all those guys into Washington and talk about where they get their drugs, and who they've killed under oath???

Lying is bad, but all those things that certain rappers represent are far worse. Where is Congress to bring Snoop Dogg, Ice Cube, Dr. Dre, and all those guys into Washington and talk about where they get their drugs, and who they've killed under oath???
I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of rappers haven't actually killed anyone. Not everything they say is true, you know... And as far as Congress asking rappers about drugs, they've really got better things to do. I think the whole "drug war" is a huge waste of time and resources that doesn't actually have much of an effect at all. The government has more important things to take care of with its limited resources.

Well if they are going to bring in those who deny (Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro...etc...) then they are obligated to bring in those WHO HAVE CONFESSED TO DOING things in their songs. Let's see if they plead innocent... let's dig into some murders someone they knew were involved in, let's find some dirt... nobody seems to care about killing cops.. but STEROIDS??? holy shit!!!

That said, I'd much rather someone lied to me than club me over the head. :)


What if that person lied in order to get a promotion before you? I think that's every bit as damaging as a club over the head. Moreover, I think that sort of immorality is far more common than serious violence. What other forms of dishonesty are widespread - tax evasion, eschewing liability, cheating in school, check fraud, ID fraud, theft of luxury goods, etc....I think all of these problems are not only widespread, but made more acceptable by pro athletes using steroids.

I think people are also ignoring how roided athletes are more mainstream than hip-hop gangster glorifiers, thereby having a greater affect on how we see the average competition.

In rappers' defense, I think it's pretty rare when they advocate violence against strangers. This "ideal" supports the fact that most violence is criminal-on-criminal violence, with law-abiding citizens comprising a far smaller proportion of victims. Moreover, violent crime has not dramatically-increased with the increase in violent rap lyrics.

Upon first reading this poll, I truly did not think that *roided* athletes would get a single vote.

To me, music artists like rappers ---with their incessant message of violence, willful ignorance and misogyny--- who are VERY influential to the young, have FAR, far more of a negative influence on society.

Athletes taking steroids is so meaningless and inconsequential to me that I never give it a second thought. They should just make them legal. It's their own bodies they are harming, not anyone else's.

Just my two cents.
it's the end of the world! i almost completely agree with FT.:eek:

it'd just a shame that he forgot that "'roid rage" always hurts an innocent bystander...Chris Benoit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Benoit) comes to mind

I agree with Leper that dishonesty is a worse problem than violence............

Wha..............?!?!?

You're the third person to say that here. I find it incredible that you all think that people in our daily lives being dishonest --i.e., lying about something-- is worse than people committing violence on others.

When people in positions of great power lie, it is true, millions of people can be hurt.

But on an individual basis, and in our interactions with one another in society in general, I cannot fathom how anyone could regard *dishonesty* as a worse problem than the commission of violent acts.

For a couple of examples,...... I'd far rather someone lie to me than hit me with a ball bat or stab me....and i'd rather they steal my possessions than shoot me. Wouldn't you?

Wha..............?!?!?

You're the third person to say that here. I find it incredible that you all think that people in our daily lives being dishonest --i.e., lying about something-- is worse than people committing violence on others.

When people in positions of great power lie, it is true, millions of people can be hurt.

But on an individual basis, and in our interactions with one another in society in general, I cannot fathom how anyone could regard *dishonesty* as a worse problem than the commission of violent acts.

For a couple of examples,...... I'd far rather someone lie to me than hit me with a ball bat or stab me....and i'd rather they steal my possessions than shoot me. Wouldn't you?

I think you underestimate the power of dishonesty. One of the great crimes of this generation has been the Enron scandal. The economic damage done by that level of dishonesty is far greater than any single act of criminal violence, barring 9/11.

Not only that, but dishonesty is far more socially acceptable than violence. Again for example, the Enron guys got relatively petty sentences compared to violent criminals.

Dishonesty is more of a problem than violence because it is much more pervasive. If violence and dishonesty happen in the same amounts (like in your example, FT), then the violence is worse. On the whole in society, dishonesty is a more common problem.

I think you underestimate the power of dishonesty.

Not really. We're just looking at different aspects of **dishonesty in society**. I'll speak to that in a minute.

One of the great crimes of this generation has been the Enron scandal. The economic damage done by that level of dishonesty is far greater than any single act of criminal violence, barring 9/11.

Agreed. Absolutely.

Before, I was looking at it from the basis of individual interactions.....one person to another. (The poll that began this thread, for instance, contrasted the violence promoted by rap to the dishonesty of athletes taking steroids. Had the poll compared the horrendous abuses of things like what the crooked sons of bitches in the Enron scandal did to things like common muggings, I'd have had a far different answer and viewpoint)

When looked at from the basis of very powerful people in business and politics being dishonest, I would agree with your view on this. Things like Enron are a true blight on society. As are things like elected leaders lying to drag the nation into a war.


Not only that, but dishonesty is far more socially acceptable than violence. Again for example, the Enron guys got relatively petty sentences compared to violent criminals.

no argument there.

What if that person lied in order to get a promotion before you? I think that's every bit as damaging as a club over the head. Moreover, I think that sort of immorality is far more common than serious violence. What other forms of dishonesty are widespread - tax evasion, eschewing liability, cheating in school, check fraud, ID fraud, theft of luxury goods, etc....I think all of these problems are not only widespread, but made more acceptable by pro athletes using steroids.

I think people are also ignoring how roided athletes are more mainstream than hip-hop gangster glorifiers, thereby having a greater affect on how we see the average competition.

In rappers' defense, I think it's pretty rare when they advocate violence against strangers. This "ideal" supports the fact that most violence is criminal-on-criminal violence, with law-abiding citizens comprising a far smaller proportion of victims. Moreover, violent crime has not dramatically-increased with the increase in violent rap lyrics.
Oh, i think you make great points. I agree you are much more likely to be a victim of any of your examples than victim of a rap induced beat down. I guess on a certain level i just accept/expect that people are dishonest.

If the consequences of these things were just "Kids who listen to rap are more likely to go shoot people." and "Kids who idolize baseball players are more likely to use steroids on their high school sports teams.", then it would be easy to see which was worse. However, as I think FT realized, the steroid thing is a manifestation of just how accepted dishonesty is in our society. It's a symptom of a much larger underlying problem. However, I think that more kids idolize rappers than sports stars now, so they're probably more of a problem.

I agree that kids idolize rappers, and the hip hop genre, a lot more than any baseball players or athletes.

And why not? You don't have to do any work to be a "rapper".. no running stairs, no jumping rope, no running for miles.. just buy some fubu and rhyme some words... genius! Oh and rent a bunch of jewelry and cars, and hire a bunch of exotic dancers for your music video... to give kids the illusion that you are rich... which ironically somehow actually does make them rich.

I just think that if Congress is going to lay the hammer down on baseball and athletes using steroids, they need to also do so on the "ghetto, hip-hop" community.... they may be "entertainers".. but so are Wrestlers, and all athletics, while it's competition to them, is just a form of entertainment. These rappers claim big things, I say put em under oath to see if they are telling the truth or if they are just posers. It would be a lose-lose situation for them either way.. I'd love it.

What about all the other musicians? Plenty of rock songs sing about doing drugs, degrading women, killing people, etc.

hey, I'm not one to stop at rappers.. let's put em all on the stand.

What about all the other musicians? Plenty of rock songs sing about doing drugs, degrading women, killing people, etc.

Only a very small percentage of rock songs are about degrading women or killing people...............in rap, it is far, far more prevalent.

And black youths seem to more strongly idolize rappers and to want to emulate their lifestyle than is the case with other kids doing it to rock singers.

kids these days heavily idolize "emo rock" that is out there, but in dress attire only. They shop for girls jeans, dye their hair blue, wear make up, and become vegetarians. The message out of the "emo rock generation" is that we all have feelings and that every little thing that happens should be exaggerated times ten, and even if you have a great life.. you should come up with some inner pain and torment, because being normal and happy is just plain boring.

I agree that black AND white youths far more EMULATE THE LIFESTYLE of rappers..