For regular citizens who don't serve in the military and don't donate money to the government, on what basis exactly do you say that one is more patriotic than another? Is patriotism just mostly a state of mind? Or are there certain things that people do to be patriotic?

If a person hangs a flag on their porch and says pledge of allegiance everyday is he/she any more patriotic than the neighbor that doesn't? If so then what does it mean anyway?

I'm from another generation, a generation that wore hats and took them off when the flag passed by or the national anthem was sung, a generation that offered the seat on the bus or train to women, a generation that called older people sir or ma'am.

To me patriotism can be best summed up by the words of Stephen Decatur, "Our country, in her intercourse with foreign nations may she always be in the right but right or wrong, our country."

To me patriotism can be best summed up by the words of Stephen Decatur, "Our country, in her intercourse with foreign nations may she always be in the right but right or wrong, our country."

The words in blue are admirable.........the ones in red an absolute abomination.

"My Country Right or Wrong!!"........is one of the most loathsome and regrettable and anti-human political stances I can imagine.

When something is wrong (for instance, such as when the political leaders of a country lie and dupe their populace into going along with an illegal pre-emptive war that was totally unwarranted and that causes hundreds of thousands of people to be killed for nothing) it is wrong, no matter which country it is.

What Does It Mean To Be "Patriotic"?

For me, it means to be a simpleminded, jingoistic twit who cannot think for him/herself, and who has little to no desire or interest in learning how to do so.

My definition:

Not caring about someone's faith or lack therof

Not caring of someone's family background

To judge a person by what he is, not where he came from or where he lives in your neighborhood

Showing respect to those who have fought and died for those ideals

Saying our country right or wrong does not mean one approves of or even condones the country's errors. It means that no matter what I will not deny being an American. I am not one of those people who pretends to be a Canadian when I go to Europe. I am an American. My parents immigrated to this country because of what it was and I enlisted in its armed forces to protect it. I will not turn my back on it at any time.

"Our country, in its intercourse with foreign nations may she always be in the right but right or wrong my country."

Saying our country right or wrong does not mean one approves of or even condones the country's errors. It means that no matter what I will not deny being an American.

Holding to the -- "My Country Right or Wrong!!"-- mindset means far more than --"If I should travel to a foreign coutry, I won't pretend to be from somewhere else".

It seems to me to very much mean that no matter when your country does something that you recognize, deep down, as being very *wrong*, you will still not criticize it or speak out against those wrongful actions.

Well then it means something different to you than it does to me.

For regular citizens who don't serve in the military and don't donate money to the government, on what basis exactly do you say that one is more patriotic than another? Is patriotism just mostly a state of mind? Or are there certain things that people do to be patriotic?

If a person hangs a flag on their porch and says pledge of allegiance everyday is he/she any more patriotic than the neighbor that doesn't? If so then what does it mean anyway?
To me, patriotism is simply the love of one's country; nothing more, nothing less. Some people choose to express their patriotism more than others, such as by hanging a flag on their porch, and some choose to act on it, such as by doing something tangible for their country. Others choose to keep it as simply an emotion or belief. Such people may not show their patriotism but that doesn't mean that they don't have any. So yes, patriotism is a state of mind and is not necessarily dependent on what a person does.

Holding to the -- "My Country Right or Wrong!!"-- mindset means far more than --"If I should travel to a foreign coutry, I won't pretend to be from somewhere else".

It seems to me to very much mean that no matter when your country does something that you recognize, deep down, as being very *wrong*, you will still not criticize it or speak out against those wrongful actions.
It doesn't mean that you won't take action to "correct" said wrongs; it just means that you should never deny your country your service or your gratitude. If you can't do that, then what are you here for?

Oh, and Frogger - well said: "I'm from another generation, a generation that wore hats and took them off when the flag passed by or the national anthem was sung, a generation that offered the seat on the bus or train to women, a generation that called older people sir or ma'am."

I like that. You're on target. No one respects shit anymore, and the American youth are, for the most part, uneducated punks with their hand out.

You know, maybe because we live in a fairly rural area--but I haven't seen that much, Prae--that is, the kids today being uneducated punks with their hands out.

The kids I know and am around every day--lots of them--I work at a college!
are nice, hardworking, educated kids. There's hope for us yet.

Maybe they act different in cities. I think people in general are ruder in cities.
I hate cities. Would never live there. I like my space.:)

The kids I know and am around every day--lots of them--I work at a college! are nice, hardworking, educated kids. There's hope for us yet.
Maybe that's why...

Holding to the -- "My Country Right or Wrong!!"-- mindset means far more than --"If I should travel to a foreign coutry, I won't pretend to be from somewhere else".

It seems to me to very much mean that no matter when your country does something that you recognize, deep down, as being very *wrong*, you will still not criticize it or speak out against those wrongful actions.

I agree, that is exactly what "my country, right or wrong" means.

To me, patriotism is simply the love of one's country; nothing more, nothing less. Some people choose to express their patriotism more than others, such as by hanging a flag on their porch, and some choose to act on it, such as by doing something tangible for their country. Others choose to keep it as simply an emotion or belief. Such people may not show their patriotism but that doesn't mean that they don't have any. So yes, patriotism is a state of mind and is not necessarily dependent on what a person does.

I like how you said that..

It doesn't mean that you won't take action to "correct" said wrongs

We disagree.

I think that that is very much a part of it.

Case in point; the Iraq war.

Those who clamored for it and screamed that we needed it and that we had to do it have --in retrospect-- been shown up as having been as wrong as is humanly possible.

B*sh and his co-conspirators LIED to the People, ....they dragged them into supporting that clusterfuck of a "war" based purely on lies.

Everyone can see that now, beyond any doubt.

Yet do we see those ever so *patriotic* Rightwing war supporters now signalling their **intent to do something about** the fact that GWB*sh and company committed treason and lied them into such a disastrous war?!?!?

No!! We see the exact opposite. We see the oh-so *Patriotic* followers of B*shCo continually making excuses for him and his war, continuing to support him to the hilt.

So YES, "patriotism" does in many --if not most-- instances mean that those so-called "patriots" won't take action to "correct" said wrongs.

it just means that you should never deny your country your service or your gratitude. If you can't do that, then what are you here for?

Because I am not able --for a couple of reasons-- to move to Sweden or some other similarly socialist country.

It seems that any liking towards your country... ANY flag or ANY pride of your heritage... is simply the next coming of Hitler and the nazis.. FT didn't let me down when I was looking for some comic relief on the responses to "what is patriotism"...

hehehe

For regular citizens who don't serve in the military and don't donate money to the government, on what basis exactly do you say that one is more patriotic than another? Is patriotism just mostly a state of mind? Or are there certain things that people do to be patriotic?

If a person hangs a flag on their porch and says pledge of allegiance everyday is he/she any more patriotic than the neighbor that doesn't? If so then what does it mean anyway?

"Patriotism is a virtue of the viscous." - Oscar Wilde

(I fully expect certain individuals here to completely misunderstand and/or misrepresent that quote)

To me, patriotism is simply the love of one's country; nothing more, nothing less. Some people choose to express their patriotism more than others, such as by hanging a flag on their porch, and some choose to act on it, such as by doing something tangible for their country. Others choose to keep it as simply an emotion or belief. Such people may not show their patriotism but that doesn't mean that they don't have any. So yes, patriotism is a state of mind and is not necessarily dependent on what a person does.

I agree.

"Patriotism is a virtue of the viscous." - Oscar Wilde

Yayyy let's all hate our country!!!

Don't worry troops.. you all are fighting for a piece of shit country!!

Hey, hard-workers out there, go get em!! You are helping the worst country on the planet!! yayyyy

This gets more entertaining by the moment

:corn:

My definition:

Not caring about someone's faith or lack therof

Not caring of someone's family background

To judge a person by what he is, not where he came from or where he lives in your neighborhood

Showing respect to those who have fought and died for those ideals
How do these things have anything to do with patriotism? Sounds like garden variety altruism to me, with the exception of the last.

Originally Posted by dharmabum
"Patriotism is a virtue of the viscous." - Oscar Wilde

Yayyy let's all hate our country!!!


Sure.

That's just what it means.

:rolleyes:

Your commentary would be humorous, if it wasn't so ignorant and misguided.

We disagree.

I think that that is very much a part of it.

Case in point; the Iraq war.
I think that's nothing more than a difference in opinion. The war was not handled properly, and consequently, it's been far too costly.
Those who clamored for it and screamed that we needed it and that we had to do it have --in retrospect-- been shown up as having been as wrong as is humanly possible.
See above
B*sh and his co-conspirators LIED to the People, ....they dragged them into supporting that clusterfuck of a "war" based purely on lies.
Clearly, this is your opinion based on the PNAC documents, which I can understand to a degree, but your stubborn insistance doesn't change the fact that reading those documents as infallible (given your political disposition) may have clouded your judgment here. Also, it's preposterous in the extreme to think that "the Bush cabal" planed this nefarious scheme only to drop the evidence in our lap. I'm sorry, but I'm just not buying it.
Yet do we see those ever so *patriotic* Rightwing war supporters now signalling their **intent to do something about** the fact that GWB*sh and company committed treason and lied them into such a disastrous war?!?!?
With ANY viable proof at all (read; if it were as clear-cut as you'd like to make it out here), then he'd be indicted. That's why I'm not buyin' it.
So YES, "patriotism" does in many --if not most-- instances mean that those so-called "patriots" won't take action to "correct" said wrongs.
Not if they don't agree with your conclusion.
Because I am not able --for a couple of reasons-- to move to Sweden or some other similarly socialist country.
Well, the 'why are you here' question I posed certainly takes a back seat to my "you should never deny your country your service or your gratitude" comment. The crux of the point I'm making is you wouldn't do that if your life depended on it, and IMHO, THAT'S what makes you unpatriotic, not your hypocrisy.

For me, it means to be a simpleminded, jingoistic twit who cannot think for him/herself, and who has little to no desire or interest in learning how to do so.

why is every post you make somehow centered around a statement like this? I nominate you most predictable poster of the year, already. You really a a boring son of a bitch.

How do these things have anything to do with patriotism? Sounds like garden variety altruism to me, with the exception of the last.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident....."

A true American patriot cares little about the individual's family status, religion, or background. Jefferson stated it more succintly than I.

To me, patriotism is simply the love of one's country; nothing more, nothing less. Some people choose to express their patriotism more than others, such as by hanging a flag on their porch, and some choose to act on it, such as by doing something tangible for their country. Others choose to keep it as simply an emotion or belief. Such people may not show their patriotism but that doesn't mean that they don't have any. So yes, patriotism is a state of mind and is not necessarily dependent on what a person does.

Encore

"We hold these truths to be self-evident....."

A true American patriot cares little about the individual's family status, religion, or background. Jefferson stated it more succintly than I.
You failed to answer my question.

You failed to answer my question.

I did?

An American patriot abides by Jefferson's words in the Declaration. Ideally and in actuality, we are not a class-riddled society.

We were the first country in the Western World to base our government on those Declarative words. France did so a few years later; unfortunately, their Republic was then toppled by a dictatorship.

Well, the 'why are you here' question I posed certainly takes a back seat to my "you should never deny your country your service or your gratitude" comment. The crux of the point I'm making is you wouldn't do that if your life depended on it, and IMHO, THAT'S what makes you unpatriotic, not your hypocrisy.

I do not know why you keep insisting that I would "never do it if my life depended on it". I would not **deny my country my gratitude**. I have stated that gratitude here before several times.

I will state it once again for you; I am grateful for living in such a wonderful place on the planet as the US of A. I am grateful that I have easy access to all the amenities of life and am not being subjugated or downtrodden. I am grateful to be free and to be given the chance to live and prosper.

But the sort of government (i.e., Corporatist) that the complacent, brainwashed electorate in this country is voting into office is busily working to abrogate and eliminate those freedoms and the actions they are taking will end up destroying that way of life, and I see no end to said electorate making such abysmal decisions.

I do not know why you keep insisting that I would "never do it if my life depended on it". I would not **deny my country my gratitude**. I have stated that gratitude here before several times.

I will state it once again for you; I am grateful for living in such a wonderful place on the planet as the US of A. I am grateful that I have easy access to all the amenities of life and am not being subjugated or downtrodden. I am grateful to be free and to be given the chance to live and prosper.
I'll have you know, this is the first time I've ever heard you say anything remotely complimentary about America.
But the sort of government (i.e., Corporatist) that the complacent, brainwashed electorate in this country is voting into office is busily working to abrogate and eliminate those freedoms and the actions they are taking will end up destroying that way of life, and I see no end to said electorate making such abysmal decisions.
I disagree, but I understand your point. That said, the "corporatist" government you hate is inextricably linked to our way of life (i.e., it affords us many of the privileges you seem to hold dear). In short, I don't see how you can separate the two.

Originally Posted by Freethinker
For me, it means to be a simpleminded, jingoistic twit who cannot think for him/herself, and who has little to no desire or interest in learning how to do so.

Originally posted by TravH20
why is every post you make somehow centered around a statement like this? I nominate you most predictable poster of the year, already. You really a a boring son of a bitch.


All of his posts are like that because he has no respect for anyone who thinks differently from him. You either agree with him or you are, in his words, "a simplistic, jingoistic twit who cannot think for him/herself, and who has little to no desire or interest in learning how to do so."

In other words, you either agree with Freethinker or you are lazy and stupid.

All of his posts are like that because he has no respect for anyone who thinks differently from him.

Wrong. On subjective matters, like music or art, nearly everyone has an aesthetic that is different from others. No problem. That's what makes humans human....their diversity.

Here however, we are often talking in terms of historical fact. And people who refuse to recognize historical fact, simply because it casts a bad light on the politician or politicians who are their heroes, are being simpleminded and jingoistic and allowing their prejudices to cloud --and to even direct-- their judgment.

An example of that would be the war on Iraq. It is a matter of historical record that B*sh and others in his Administration had signaled their desire and their intent to wage war against Iraq even before the 9/11 attacks occured. You still have people in this country steadfastly refusing to recognize that.

THOSE are the people I am referring to. THOSE people who hide the truth from themselves, --out of some irrational loyalty and allegiance {iow, patriotism} to God and Country and to the status quo-- are the kinds of people I am referring to as being simpleminded, jingoistic twits.

In other words, you either agree with Freethinker or you are lazy and stupid.

Wrong. The agreement or non-agreement with me personally of the people in question has NOTHING whatsoever to do with my characterization of them as being simpleminded or jingoistic.

They are simply demonstrating --by their refusal to acknowledge what has been going on in this country under B*sh and to acknowledge his and his accomplices' myriad wrongful actions-- themselves to possess those qualities.

I did?

An American patriot abides by Jefferson's words in the Declaration. Ideally and in actuality, we are not a class-riddled society.

We were the first country in the Western World to base our government on those Declarative words. France did so a few years later; unfortunately, their Republic was then toppled by a dictatorship.
That doesn't speak to patriotism. Merely aligning yourself to one of your nation's values does not make you a patriot. Unless you want to call all those anti-war nuts patriots for championing our freedom of speech while viciously attacking our nation.

Unless you want to claim that classlessness is the only thing that makes us American, you need to come up with a more robust definition than that.

Freethinker, It is funny because I love history and read history books constantly, and you "historical facts" are anything but. They seem to be "facts" like the Soviets used to use.

That doesn't speak to patriotism. Merely aligning yourself to one of your nation's values does not make you a patriot. Unless you want to call all those anti-war nuts patriots for championing our freedom of speech while viciously attacking our nation.

Unless you want to claim that classlessness is the only thing that makes us American, you need to come up with a more robust definition than that.

Classlessness does make us uniquely American. Citizens of other countries hold rallies, march in protest, or conversely, support a war.

Was Dio wondering what makes us American patriots,, or what makes a patriot in general?

Stalin considered himself a patriot, as did Bonaparte.
I will accept Jester's definition of patriot in general, and add my 2 cents as to what makes an American patriot.

Addendum---there are anti war nut cases, as you put it, who utilize freedom of speech while viciously attacking their nation. Would anyone call them patriots or would they garner many followers?

Perhaps you meant to say they were attacking a particular government in power.

Classlessness does make us uniquely American. Citizens of other countries hold rallies, march in protest, or conversely, support a war.

Was Dio wondering what makes us American patriots,, or what makes a patriot in general?

Stalin considered himself a patriot, as did Bonaparte.
I will accept Jester's definition of patriot in general, and add my 2 cents as to what makes an American patriot.

Addendum---there are anti war nut cases, as you put it, who utilize freedom of speech while viciously attacking their nation. Would anyone call them patriots or would they garner many followers?

Perhaps you meant to say they were attacking a particular government in power.
Jester's definition of patriot as a simple love for one's country leaves in the possibility that one could do horrific acts and still be patriots. The problem with this is, a definition needs to be universally applicable. So, while Stalin may consider himself a patriot, would you consider him one as well? If not, then one needs to revisit that definition and come up with something more useful. If a definition doesn't define, what good is it?

Jester's definition of patriot as a simple love for one's country leaves in the possibility that one could do horrific acts and still be patriots.
So what? No one said you had to be a good person to be patriotic. You can put that in your definition if you want, but I don't think it's necessary.

It's a surprising thing to claim. Now patriotism is not necessarily a good thing. Now I can say to the people who fly flags on their antennas, who say, "God Bless America" all the time, who decry the lack of patriotism in the country, "So what? Patriotism isn't so great. Stalin was a patriot. Hitler was a patriot. I don't want to be a patriot, and you can't tell me I'm doing anything wrong because I'm not." In fact, being the total opposite of a patriot holds exactly the same moral ground. If you can't say that patriotism is per se a good thing to champion, you can't say that hating your country is a bad thing. I wouldn't expect Rendova to agree with such a stance.

It's a surprising thing to claim. Now patriotism is not necessarily a good thing. Now I can say to the people who fly flags on their antennas, who say, "God Bless America" all the time, who decry the lack of patriotism in the country, "So what? Patriotism isn't so great. Stalin was a patriot. Hitler was a patriot. I don't want to be a patriot, and you can't tell me I'm doing anything wrong because I'm not." In fact, being the total opposite of a patriot holds exactly the same moral ground. If you can't say that patriotism is per se a good thing to champion, you can't say that hating your country is a bad thing.
You're misinterpreting my argument, possibly deliberately. Patriotism is a good thing, but people who are patriotic are not necessarily good people. Things aren't always black and white, Nappy.

Let's see if I can make you understand with an example. I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that being charitable is a good thing. However, what if a serial killer gives all his money to charity? He's still charitable, but he is not a good person.

Here's another example: not killing people is good, right? But plenty of bad people aren't murderers.

I would agree with you, but the examples of Stalin and Hitler are too strong to be taken as anything other than a severe criticism of the idea of patriotism. Stalin and Hitler both epitomized the concept. All of their horrific acts were committed in the name of patriotism. Both had a unquestioned love for their country, and tried to execute plans that would lead their countries into unparalleled times of growth.

Similarly damning is the people who display patriotism, but without a proper sense of perspective. There are so many of those in this country that seem to be patriots only for the positive attention it garners them. You simply cannot hold a concept separate from the people that advocate it. Animal rights is unavoidably tarnished by PETA nuts. People reflect in their actions the soundness of the beliefs they exhibit.

Perhaps patriotism isn't purely good. Like I said, things aren't always black and white. People can have good beliefs and use them to do bad things. Or they can have good intentions, but they act out those intentions in such a skewed way that they can't help but be interpreted as bad by everyone else. Hitler doing bad things in the name of patriotism is not an argument against being patriotic, simply because patriotism doesn't necessarily lead to becoming Hitler. Similarly, believing that animals shouldn't be tortured doesn't make you a PETA nut.

Stalin and Hitler were indeed patriots.
But to a cause--not their country nor their own countrymen. Or rather, they were--to a few select countrymen.

Stalin exterminated millions, literally millions, of his own countrymen--for his cause.

Hitler saw his "beloved" country which wasn't even his own bombed to rubble before he put a pistol to his head. For his cause.

It's a surprising thing to claim. Now patriotism is not necessarily a good thing. Now I can say to the people who fly flags on their antennas, who say, "God Bless America" all the time, who decry the lack of patriotism in the country, "So what? Patriotism isn't so great. Stalin was a patriot. Hitler was a patriot. I don't want to be a patriot, and you can't tell me I'm doing anything wrong because I'm not." In fact, being the total opposite of a patriot holds exactly the same moral ground. If you can't say that patriotism is per se a good thing to champion, you can't say that hating your country is a bad thing. I wouldn't expect Rendova to agree with such a stance.

I'd say you're saying, Nap, if the hate brings about a good, then it's not a bad thing, is that not so?

I would suppose that many of the Revolutionary minutemen "hated" their country, (or government)--as it was then.

Perhaps patriotism isn't purely good. Like I said, things aren't always black and white. People can have good beliefs and use them to do bad things. Or they can have good intentions, but they act out those intentions in such a skewed way that they can't help but be interpreted as bad by everyone else. Hitler doing bad things in the name of patriotism is not an argument against being patriotic, simply because patriotism doesn't necessarily lead to becoming Hitler. Similarly, believing that animals shouldn't be tortured doesn't make you a PETA nut.
You either make the dichotomy or you don't. Patriotism is either a good thing, a bad thing, or it's neither a good thing or a bad thing. Some people think patriotism is pretty high up there on the moral totem pole. Then they use the shades of grey reasoning to escape association with Hitler and Stalin, while still holding that patriotism is almost as essential to good morality as they did. Even if they don't murder thousands for the state, they're still skewing their priorities, and coming across as ignorant tools.

Altruism is a good thing. Patience is a good thing. Love is a good thing. If a thing is virtuous, then it is good no matter what. Now, someone else could murder people, and call it altruistic. But since altruism is good, and murdering people is bad, we could say that what he was doing wasn't altruistic, even if the murderer says it was. Or someone could rape someone, and call it love. But we could say that what he was doing was not love, because it did not fit the definition of love. But you seem to say that patriotism is not subject to that same kind of reasoning. To me that's a failure of definition, a hole in reasoning, not something to be proud of for being able to see "shades of grey."

One should not sacrifice good definition for an unnecessary "shades of grey," moral relativising.

Stalin and Hitler were indeed patriots.
But to a cause--not their country nor their own countrymen. Or rather, they were--to a few select countrymen.

Stalin exterminated millions, literally millions, of his own countrymen--for his cause.

Hitler saw his "beloved" country which wasn't even his own bombed to rubble before he put a pistol to his head. For his cause.
Patriotism is inextricably linked to the notion of nationalism, you can't say a person is a patriot of a cause. You would need a different word.

Freethinker, It is funny because I love history and read history books constantly, and you "historical facts" are anything but. They seem to be "facts" like the Soviets used to use.


I am a fellow history lover and a forty year plus member of Phi Alpha Theta and I agree with you concerning Freethinker's {facts}.

You either make the dichotomy or you don't. Patriotism is either a good thing, a bad thing, or it's neither a good thing or a bad thing.
I suppose that patriotism by itself is neutral, neither good nor bad. The good and bad come from what people do with it. However, when I say that patriotism is a good thing, I mean that it's generally a good thing.

Love is a good thing. If a thing is virtuous, then it is good no matter what.
Ah, but here we fall into the same conundrum as with patriotism. You could replace the word patriotism with the phrase "love of one's country", and you'd still be able to point out the same bad things done in its name. If someone loves their mother, and then they murder a person who has done something bad to her, that's a bad thing done out of love. And you can't say that the murder is bad but the love is still good, because then I could say that about your Hitler/Stalin arguments against patriotism as well. :thumbs:

Ah, but here we fall into the same conundrum as with patriotism. You could replace the word patriotism with the phrase "love of one's country", and you'd still be able to point out the same bad things done in its name. If someone loves their mother, and then they murder a person who has done something bad to her, that's a bad thing done out of love. And you can't say that the murder is bad but the love is still good, because then I could say that about your Hitler/Stalin arguments against patriotism as well. :thumbs:
One could say that as a virtue, showing love is not killing. Therefore a person is not displaying the virtue of love by murdering in his mother's name. One could not kill another to show love to someone else. Such a thing could be considered abominable, not virtuous.

One could define the virtue of valor. Destroying one's enemy in righteous combat would be considered valorous. One could take the aforementioned scenario and determine that while the murderer did not show the virtue of love, he did show valor, and conclude that his actions were good. Love did not necessarily apply. Not every virtue must apply to every situation. It is this sort of interplay between virtues that produces a man of good moral fibre. The careful selection of virtues and studious application of each will produce a man who commands respect from others, even if they don't agree with the whole of his moral makeup. If a man selects virtues that don't agree with him, but instead are chosen because society likes those virtues in a person, he is choosing self-aggrandizement over good morals. This produces a man with poor morals, and will do far more reprehensible things than good, though they may not appear so on the surface.

But patriotism is something else entirely. By it's very nature it corrupts priorities, spins reasoning around, and doesn't have much good reasoning to begin with as to why it's chosen. Far more wrongs are attributed to patriotism than are to simpler virtues, like compassion. In my opinion, patriotism as a virtue is a crass, vulgar thing to push on another person, and the ones who champion it tend to be either foolish or slimy. Far better to select simpler, more manageable virtues to live ones life by. What has, "love for one's country," ever done for anybody? Give them meaningless words of support? How can you apply patriotism to your day to day life to do good deeds? How does it command respect from others? Being compassionate, valorous, altruistic, these are things to be proud of! You are making the world better for those around you. Being patriotic, what has that ever done? Encourage Congress to raise the tax rate? Refusing to accept the obvious and withdraw from a poorly fought and unwinnable fight out of foolishness?

I do support the troops. I respect their valor and discipline. I do not respect the top leadership of this country for any kind of virtue. To me they are slimeballs, worthy of naught but ridicule. Perhaps a few of them show respectable qualities. But they are overshadowed by the utter carelessness with which the whole of the Bush administration has treated the business of running this country. Our leaders we should hold to the highest of moral standards, not the least.

I do support the troops. I respect their valor and discipline. I do not respect the top leadership of this country for any kind of virtue. To me they are slimeballs, worthy of naught but ridicule. Perhaps a few of them show respectable qualities. But they are overshadowed by the utter carelessness with which the whole of the Bush administration has treated the business of running this country. Our leaders we should hold to the highest of moral standards, not the least.
You don't have to love the government to love the country.

Using Jester's definition of patriotism, I suppose not. But I do not consider patriotism to be mere love for one's country. I consider a patriot somebody who considers patriotism a virtue, and enjoys all the trappings of nationalism to an extent that they derive great joy from such displays. Jester's definition is a weak one, I prefer definitions with robust, applicable meanings.

Even though I love this country, I do not consider myself a patriot. If one is to call somebody such a word as patriot, shouldn't that mean a little more than mere "love for one's country?" If I wanted to call someone a businessman, wouldn't it make sense to say it's a person who makes the business of business an important part of his life, instead of just "somebody in a business?"

The American Heritage Dictionary defines patriotism as "love of and devotion to one's country". I prefer not to read any more than that into it, as I think that is all that is necessary. The fact that you define patriotism more narrowly is your opinion, certainly not any more or less correct than anyone else's.

Sure, but when you call someone a patriot, you are making a statement about the man's character, not merely saying he displays patriotism. I cook from time to time, but I'm not a cook.

I suppose there's a difference between being patriotic and being a patriot. However, I was talking about patriotism, not patriots.

Well, your definition doesn't just involve love for one's country, it clearly states, "love of and devotion towards." Devotion involves a bit more than words and feelings.

Devotion is defined as "love, loyalty, or enthusiasm". I don't see what else it involves.

You're not reading the same dictionaries I am, it seems.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/devotion

I have a dictionary widget.

You might want to get a better one. Borghunter tried an alternate search engine for a few days that claimed to be Google, but gives free gifts, until he realized that he wasn't quite getting the same search results as Google.

You might want to get a better one. Borghunter tried an alternate search engine for a few days that claimed to be Google, but gives free gifts, until he realized that he wasn't quite getting the same search results as Google.
My widget is fine, although I believe it uses only one dictionary as its source, and therefore isn't as comprehensive as dictionary.reference.com, which is less convenient for me to use. The fact is that there are multiple definitions for things like "devotion" and "love" and they can certainly be used in different contexts to mean different things. Therefore, I think your assertion that devotion is more than "words and feelings" can only be thought of as your opinion.

EDIT: Edited the quote to reflect your edit. :)

I don't think so, seeing as all the applicable definitions I'm seeing are along the "profound dedication; consecration," lines. I think you're the one cherry picking definitions.

I don't think so, seeing as all the applicable definitions I'm seeing are along the "profound dedication; consecration," lines. I think you're the one cherry picking definitions.
I didn't say anything about cherry picking. I said that there are multiple definitions for the word. Who are you to say that one is better than another?
And more importantly, there are multiple contexts in which the definition implied changes. Here is where it really becomes a matter of opinion. With regards to patriotism, if we accept it as "devotion to one's country", which definition of devotion is implied? You believe that it is a very narrow, precise definition, and the most dramatic. I think devotion simply implies love, while you think it implies "profound dedication". This is not a matter of right and wrong, it is a matter of opinion. Two opinions, in fact. So there are quite a few ways to interpret this.

I didn't say anything about cherry picking. I said that there are multiple definitions for the word. Who are you to say that one is better than another?
And more importantly, there are multiple contexts in which the definition implied changes. Here is where it really becomes a matter of opinion. With regards to patriotism, if we accept it as "devotion to one's country", which definition of devotion is implied? You believe that it is a very narrow, precise definition, and the most dramatic. I think devotion simply implies love, while you think it implies "profound dedication". This is not a matter of right and wrong, it is a matter of opinion. Two opinions, in fact. So there are quite a few ways to interpret this.
If it just meant love, we wouldn't even have the word, "devotion." We'd just use "love." But we do, and it refers to a specific type or ardor which borders on a religious sense. Just because it can be used as a synonym for love doesn't mean it's the exact same thing. This is not a matter of opinion. And as for your multiple definition rules, you are right when you say it's a matter of context. But context can be derived, it's not simply made up. Usually when a person uses a word, he uses it in a certain context. He might get the context wrong, but that's a mistake, not a matter of opinion.

It is a matter of opinion. What objective evidence could you possibly have to prove that I am wrong and you are right?

EDIT: And yes, devotion is a type of love. Love is a broader word. Devotion was originally used in a purely religious context, but its definition has now been broadened.

Context! If I say, "John's devotion to Mary is unparalleled," it's pretty easy to determine that the context is, "Ardent, often selfless affection and dedication, as to a person or principle," rather than, "Religious ardor or zeal; piety." It could perhaps mean, "The act of devoting or the state of being devoted," but unless a prior statement alludes to him actually devoting himself to her, we're stuck with definition one. It's an imprecise science, but that doesn't mean it's all a matter of opinion.

And how does that my definition of patriotism (as simply love of one's country) is wrong? Just to get back to the point.

Because the various dictionaries add other ideas to the mix, whether it's devotion, loyalty, defense. None of the dictionaries simply define it as love.

Because the various dictionaries add other ideas to the mix, whether it's devotion, loyalty, defense. None of the dictionaries simply define it as love.
OK, how about I say that patriotism is love and support (this includes defense) of one's country? Is that good enough for you?

That definition still fails to capture the spirit of the various dictionary definitions. Wordnet states it's, "love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it." Love and support just don't do it justice.

That definition still fails to capture the spirit of the various dictionary definitions. Wordnet states it's, "love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it." Love and support just don't do it justice.
I think that support implies both defense and willingness to sacrifice.

EDIT: So, Nap, what is the correct definition of patriotism? Is it every single dictionary entry ever written about it put together?

No, support does not include a "willingness to sacrifice," bit.

No, support does not include a "willingness to sacrifice," bit.
If you say so. I hate how you just start acting like you've won an argument when you actually haven't, and then everyone starts believing you.

For two pages, it's just been us, sweetie. Oh, and I did win. I don't lose these things, in case you haven't noticed.

EDIT: So, Nap, what is the correct definition of patriotism? Is it every single dictionary entry ever written about it put together?
As I've said, definition is an imprecise science. But that doesn't mean we can't get as close as possible to a perfectly correct definition. Anything in line with most of the dictionaries would be an adequate definition.

For two pages, it's just been us, sweetie. Oh, and I did win. I don't lose these things, in case you haven't noticed.
You did not win. That's bullshit. And it hasn't been just us, there have been various people lurking around. And of course they all think you won.

You did not win. That's bullshit. And it hasn't been just us, there have been various people lurking around. And of course they all think you won.
I don't think either of you won, for what it's worth. I think you both have been wasting your time having an inconsequential argument about a non-topic. But, that's me.

Patriotism, can be a good thing, unfortunately its used and abused in the guise of extreme nationalism.

The most potent symbol of Patriotism is of course the flag.

People fly their flag on cars, on homes, places of work, bars, clubs, stadiums and churches [not in Irish churches].
To show their Patriotic, thats fine, but taken that extra step, its used to support war and militarism, which, in some nations, is a very dangerous thing.

I don't think either of you won, for what it's worth. I think you both have been wasting your time having an inconsequential argument about a non-topic. But, that's me.
Like you and your God debates with SMW? You win those, regardless of how silly they are.

Be a winner, Borg. Sure, you'll piss people off sometimes who aren't winners, but the self-confidence that comes from having the ability to be unhesitatingly competitive is golden. You don't have to do it all the time, just when it looks like fun.

Sorry, Nappy, but you didn't win. Neither did Dark Fantasy. You both won your arguments but you were both arguing different things. You were acting like an old married couple, talking past each other rather than to each other.

Dark Fantasy was discussing patriotism and you were discussing nationalism, a form of patriotism taken to a greater extreme.

Sorry, Frogger, no. Read again.

Patriotism, can be a good thing, unfortunately its used and abused in the guise of extreme nationalism.
I fully agree.
To show their Patriotic, thats fine, but taken that extra step, its used to support war and militarism, which, in some nations, is a very dangerous thing.
Oh, just say it, ya cheeky bastard! :D

I think that being patriotic means that your strong feelings for your country are not going to be rattled by particular incidents or certain administrations.
Too many people (here) project their antipathy toward this administration onto the country.
I see it as the part of a wedding vow that says "in good times and in bad". Bad times shouldn't be the only time you judge your spouse.

Actually though, I think patriotism says more about one's personality in general. Look at this place as an example. I find that people who badmouth the country the most are also the most likely to deride people with political beliefs that differ from their own, deride people with religious beliefs that they don't agree with and are more likely to get personal or nasty.

If you tend to be generally intolerant, judgemental and arrogant, your negativity will temper your feelings about everything including your country.


And that was a great exchange between Nap and DF

I think that being patriotic means that your strong feelings for your country are not going to be rattled by particular incidents or certain administrations.
Too many people (here) project their antipathy toward this administration onto the country.
I see it as the part of a wedding vow that says "in good times and in bad". Bad times shouldn't be the only time you judge your spouse.

Actually though, I think patriotism says more about one's personality in general. Look at this place as an example. I find that people who badmouth the country the most are also the most likely to deride people with political beliefs that differ from their own, deride people with religious beliefs that they don't agree with and are more likely to get personal or nasty.

If you tend to be generally intolerant, judgemental and arrogant, your negativity will temper your feelings about everything including your country.
GOD, I MISS THIS FUCKIN' GUY!!!!

I don't think either of you won, for what it's worth. I think you both have been wasting your time having an inconsequential argument about a non-topic. But, that's me.
I agree. Why the hell else would I be here discussing things if not to waste time? But I suppose the discussions you have on the forum are somehow more consequential and meaningful. So thank you, mighty Borg, for your wonderful and consequential insight into our pitiful little discussion. Now you can go back to doing important things! :rolleyes:

And Frogger - Yes, I suspect that Nappy has been talking about something different than I am all along, although I don't think it's patriotism vs. nationalism. I do think that he has different ideas about what certain things mean, which makes the discussion mostly pointless, as we start it from completely different viewpoints. Then again, the same could be said of any discussion in politics or religion.

I think that being patriotic means that your strong feelings for your country are not going to be rattled by particular incidents or certain administrations.
Agreed, Prae.

Brooks, I'm inclined to agree. That bridges the gap between simply loving your country and the strong feelings that are inherent in most contexts of the word's usage. It's not as strong as I would like, but it's a much better definition than Jester's. I still wouldn't consider myself patriotic. The United States simply isn't something I feel all that strongly towards. It's a great place, sure, but so is Steak 'n' Shake. I love living here, but that doesn't mean I couldn't ever come to love, say, Italy.

I do think that he has different ideas about what certain things mean, which makes the discussion mostly pointless, as we start it from completely different viewpoints. Then again, the same could be said of any discussion in politics or religion.
I detest the dilution of language. I think all words should mean something tangible and concrete. It should mean something about your character when you say you are a patriot, a cook, a fighter, whatever. You shouldn't be able to identify with something, but then escape the unintended connotations that it brings up, simply through claiming some mealy mouthed definitions that are nothing but fluff. If you consider yourself patriotic, you should have strong, ardorous feelings towards your country, not merely, "I like it a lot." It should play a real role in your life, influence your decisions, and make up a part of who you are. Shit or get off the pot.

I agree. Why the hell else would I be here discussing things if not to waste time? But I suppose the discussions you have on the forum are somehow more consequential and meaningful. So thank you, mighty Borg, for your wonderful and consequential insight into our pitiful little discussion. Now you can go back to doing important things! :rolleyes:
That's not what I meant at all, actually. I never said that my arguments were any more consequential than yours. In fact, your argument about the definition of a word sounds like something I'd tend to get into, usually. But hey, don't let the facts of the situation get in the way of you being a bitch to me.

Boy, when Scarlett breaks up with a guy she goes all the way and rips his scrotum open too. ;)

If you consider yourself patriotic, you should have strong, ardorous feelings towards your country, not merely, "I like it a lot." It should play a real role in your life, influence your decisions, and make up a part of who you are. Shit or get off the pot.
I certainly agree with this, Nappy. Maybe if you'd said that in the first place, we wouldn't have gotten into that argument. :D (And as a side note, you should know that I do not consider myself patriotic.)

But hey, don't let the facts of the situation get in the way of you being a bitch to me.
I won't. :) You never let them get in the way of you being an arrogant jerk to me (and pretty much everyone else, but that's another matter).

Boy, when Scarlett breaks up with a guy she goes all the way and rips his scrotum open too. ;)
I don't enjoy being constantly condescended to, honestly. Sometimes I get a little snippy when I'm fed up. :p

I won't. :) You never let them get in the way of you being an arrogant jerk to me (and pretty much everyone else, but that's another matter).
I may be arrogant, my dear, but I am as non-jerky about it as possible. However, more to the point--I wasn't arrogant at all in this thread. You jumped all over me based on assumptions of how I meant my post, when your assumptions were way off-base. And this, mind you, makes everything you're saying merely, well, bitch-talk. In fact, you're acting surprisingly like SMW.

In fact, you're acting surprisingly like SMW.Crossing the line!!

Crossing the line!!

I may be arrogant, my dear, but I am as non-jerky about it as possible. However, more to the point--I wasn't arrogant at all in this thread. You jumped all over me based on assumptions of how I meant my post, when your assumptions were way off-base. And this, mind you, makes everything you're saying merely, well, bitch-talk. In fact, you're acting surprisingly like SMW.
Oh, so you jumping into our argument just to call it "inconsequential" and a "non-topic" wasn't arrogant at all? I can't believe that you don't even see it. And if you think that all the arguments here are inconsequential, which they pretty much are, and therefore it wouldn't have been a bad thing, then why even say it?

Crossing the line!!

Crossing the line!!
:lolhit: I'm sure SMW would be proud of me.

Oh, so you jumping into our argument just to call it "inconsequential" and a "non-topic" wasn't arrogant at all? I can't believe that you don't even see it. And if you think that all the arguments here are inconsequential, which they pretty much are, and therefore it wouldn't have been a bad thing, then why even say it?
I meant it affectionately. And I was trying to talk you down from being apparently upset about Napster "winning" the thread. I wasn't expecting you to assume I was insulting you, because I presumed that you knew me better than that.

I don't enjoy being constantly condescended to, honestly. Sometimes I get a little snippy when I'm fed up. :p

DarkFantasy,

Let's face it, you're hot, very hot and Borg was in pig heaven when the two of you were dating. Many girls seem to not realize that they can't simply walk away from what was a hot and heavy relationship and expect everything to be hunky dory.

If I was the young man you broke up with I would probably still be a bit pissed at you. Since Borg is a gentleman he won't post, drop dead, or go to hell, but you can't expect him to not react. I think he has been pretty cool about everything, much cooler and more gentlemanly than I would be were I in his shoes.

Cut him some slack.

Boy, when Scarlett breaks up with a guy she goes all the way and rips his scrotum open too. ;)

For months i have been telling you all... NEVER....EVER......EVER..... Trust a girl with red hair.


I am not going to even scroll up to see what happened... The way i see it.... borg has a 1-4 chance it is her bad week... a 1-4 chance it is her pre bad week and a 1-4 chance it is her post bad week..... depending on the female any one of those three weeks can be hell... so basically he has a 25% chance that this whole blow up had nothing to do with the fact of Df being a female,let alone a red head... Not even going into the fact of having a defensive or sensitive personality....... But I will agree with Borg he is arrogant as anyone... but not an ass about it....well not that much

Damn... I've never even posted on this thread and there's my name mentioned over and over. Does that mean I'm famous now? Where's my friggin check?

BTW, DF... Borg is a mini-asshole. He'll be a full grown asshole in a few years, but as of now, he's a young, know-it-all punk who's too big for his britches. JMHO. I knew you'd be interested in hearing what I think.

;)
SMW

I meant it affectionately. And I was trying to talk you down from being apparently upset about Napster "winning" the thread. I wasn't expecting you to assume I was insulting you, because I presumed that you knew me better than that.
I wasn't upset at all. In fact, I thought Nappy and I were having quite the fun little conversation, and in talking about him "winning" I was trying to lighten it up a bit.

Frogger - If he's mad at me, he should tell me. He's perfectly civil and nice to me when we have private conversations, which we often do. It's the condescending behavior towards me when everyone else is watching that bothers me. However, I know he is also just as condescending to everyone else, so I don't think it's just me. I'm not upset about it, I just think that he should expect people to pull out the bitchiness sometimes in reaction to how he says things.

LF - I am kind of a bitch, but most of the time I keep it to myself. I think I can whip it out sometimes without being too bitchy. :p

Damn... I've never even posted on this thread and there's my name mentioned over and over. Does that mean I'm famous now? Where's my friggin check?

BTW, DF... Borg is a mini-asshole. He'll be a full grown asshole in a few years, but as of now, he's a young, know-it-all punk who's too big for his britches. JMHO. I knew you'd be interested in hearing what I think.
Hah! Well you do have a distinct style... :p

I wouldn't call Borg an asshole. A know-it-all, sure... and I think he'd agree with that. :thumbs:

The way i see it.... borg has a 1-4 chance it is her bad week... a 1-4 chance it is her pre bad week and a 1-4 chance it is her post bad week..... depending on the female any one of those three weeks can be hell... so basically he has a 25% chance that this whole blow up had nothing to do with the fact of Df being a female...
Sorry, ladies....run a long now, man talk. :D

You nailed that one, LF. Females don't understand how we come to that conclusion, either. I mean, it's simply mind boggling to me....

It's almost as if they'd like us to believe WE'RE the fuckin' crazy ones.....pfffft.

Sorry, ladies....run a long now, man talk. :D

You nailed that one, LF. Females don't understand how we come to that conclusion, either. I mean, it's simply mind boggling to me....

It's almost as if they'd like us to believe WE'RE the fuckin' crazy ones.....pfffft.
Oh I agree that women are insane, but I don't think that applies to me in this case. I don't think I was being insane at all. You're slightly mean to people all the time when they bother you, right? Same thing here.