Here's a fitting lesson in basic economics, courtesy of that savvy socialist Hugo Chavez: Price controls don't work.

Four years of controls on basic food products in oil-rich Venezuela have been an unmitigated disaster -- albeit a predictable one. Less than 40 percent of the public demand is being met for milk, cooking oil and eight other basic commodities. Shortages are rampant. Food producers and importers say their return isn't worth their efforts.

So el presidente -- still recovering from the sting of his failed constitutional power grab -- has realized that it's time to loosen his own ordained price controls. Of course, this also underscores Mr. Chavez's wrongheaded initiative to cap inflation by controlling food prices. In November alone inflation shot up 4.4 percent, sending Venezuela's annual rate to 18.6 percent.

Yet in spite of this, Finance Minister Rodrigo Cabezas tells The Associated Press that price controls will only be relaxed for the short term and not completely lifted. So, just as Venezuelans get some relief, their government will cap prices again -- and prompt more shortages.

Now, imagine if the same reasoning is applied to, say, the price of gasoline in the United States. Can you say, "gas lines."

The ancillary lesson to Hugo Chavez's economics is that socialism, no matter how befuddled, never cedes its own mistakes.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/opinion/archive/s_544014.html

Guess it is not such a paradise down there after all.

It is not a paradise up here either.

It is not a paradise up here either.

I've always been able to buy milk, cooking oil, and stuff. The story made me feel good about the capitalist system we have for basic commodities.

I've always been able to buy milk, cooking oil, and stuff.

And were it not for the ConservaFascists who are in control of the world's most powerful country keeping their foot on the neck of countries in South America who have dared to embrace socialist policies, the people down there would have far better access to the goods you mention.

And were it not for the ConservaFascists who are in control of the world's most powerful country keeping their foot on the neck of countries in South America who have dared to embrace socialist policies, the people down there would have far better access to the goods you mention.

I don't know what your talking about; link please.

That's cause he's full of shit. The Venezuelan's largest trading partner is the US, they meet about 15% of our oil demand. The US supplies more than one third (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Venezuela) of Venezuela's food imports.

Im not so sure about this free market is better routine.

Not that Im suggesting a controlled one is better.

But big companies selling-say milk-are price fixing between them all the time.

Price fixing is a lot harder than it looks to achieve. There's always some asshole willing to thumb his nose at the rest of the industry and undercut prices. Once that happens, either he mops up the business or the rest follow suit. That's one of the main factors in commodity markets, because the quality of what you are selling matters a good deal less, and more players can play the game.

If history is clear on one thing it is that market driven economies are the only successful economies in the long term.

With only a few exceptions - it's always better to let the market decide - that way capital always flows to where it's the most efficient.

Hugo Chavez is a fat asshole who has oil wealth in abundance, a crappy economy and a huge amount of people living in total poverty. It's his right to challenge US hedgemony - all underdogs should normally do that, but his ability to look like a total looney is his undoing & his insistence on policies that have already been proven over & over to not work makes him out of touch with common sense.

I've always been able to buy milk, cooking oil, and stuff.

Count your blessings for living in Canada.
Not everyone in America can say that.

If history is clear on one thing it is that market driven economies are the only successful economies in the long term.

With only a few exceptions - it's always better to let the market decide - that way capital always flows to where it's the most efficient.

With the exception of services that have to do with life and death.
That is why we have socialized Fire and Police services and it is why we need socialized health care insurance.

Relying solely on "market forces" for everything is a sure fire recipe for disaster.

Im not so sure about this free market is better routine.

Not that Im suggesting a controlled one is better.

But big companies selling-say milk-are price fixing between them all the time.

I agree, a mixed econony is the only viable long term strategy.

In the UK-Tesco, Sainsbury and Asda, the three big food chains were recently found to have been price fixing the price of milk between them.

Its ok to say 'the market will sort itself out', but these big chains have squeezed out a lot of small corner shops who sold the same product, on top of that, they give farmers a pretty raw deal for the price of milk, so what do ya do, who knows what else these big three have agreed on to maximise profits.

These big 3 are taking over in Ireland now also :(

In the UK-Tesco, Sainsbury and Asda, the three big food chains were recently found to have been price fixing the price of milk between them.

Its ok to say 'the market will sort itself out', but these big chains have squeezed out a lot of small corner shops who sold the same product, on top of that, they give farmers a pretty raw deal for the price of milk, so what do ya do, who knows what else these big three have agreed on to maximise profits.

These big 3 are taking over in Ireland now also :(

And most likely those smaller shops sold the same products at a much cheaper price. Check out Consumers Union's report on milk prices (http://www.consumersunion.org/pub/core_other_issues/001266.html)... (granted, it's a few years old, but I personally bought all the milk in those surveys when I worked there, so cut me some slack :) ).

Well to be honest Fran-the corner shops would have been more expensive.

That said, a part of heritage is lost, local focal points are lost, many a small

shop would have given local people a bottle of milk and a loaf of bread late at nite, and waited to the next day for their payment for it.

Big stores-not a chance.

No one can compete with their buying power.

I dont know what their like in America-but here theres very little customer care, its more a conveyer belt, in-out-next.

I dont know what their like in America-but here theres very little customer care, its more a conveyer belt, in-out-next.
Well it's kind of like that here, but honestly it depends where you are. I think we have an okay number of Mom & Pop type stores, at least everywhere I've been.

The mom and pop stores are now 7-11's or gas stations. Probably many of those would let you pay for a gallon of milk the next day if you had been coming in every day & the cashier knew you well.

The large stores are cheaper & convenient - it's better to pay less and go to fewer stores. The small shops closed because market forces closed them - consumers voted and the big shops won.

The mom and pop stores are now 7-11's or gas stations. Probably many of those would let you pay for a gallon of milk the next day if you had been coming in every day & the cashier knew you well.

I'm sure they would. There was a nice little mom & pop near my place in Berkeley, and I became friendly with the Pakistani owner and his family (they were all there something like 27 hours a day, 394 days a year). I once gave them an old TV of mine which worked fine, but I'd gotten something larger/new, and after that, they probably would have let me borrow money from them for hookers, if that was the sort of thing I was into... ;)

The large stores are cheaper & convenient - it's better to pay less and go to fewer stores. The small shops closed because market forces closed them - consumers voted and the big shops won.

You ought to read the link - in many cities, the large stores gouge people on milk prices. In the food world (corporate and government-regulation-wise) milk is considered a staple food and something that poor families must have. For this reason, Consumers Union (parent company of Consumer Reports) has conducted regular nationwide milk price surveys since 1936.

Given the fact that so many poor live in inner city areas where mom and pop grocery stores cannot compete - generally because of high commercial rent rates - it's unconscionable that these mega milk-producers charge such outrageous prices when it's so inexpensive for them to produce. * If they want to gouge people on fancy gourmet items, fine, but milk is a staple, for god's sake!

You may think supermarkets use milk as a loss leader, charging less for it than small grocery stores. Not in California, the No. 1 milk-producing state (Wisconsin is No. 2). Consumers Union found that supermarkets there often charge prices that range from the middle to the highest in town.

Last January, 15 of 29 mom-and-pop stores surveyed in Sacramento were charging 10 to 80 cents less per gallon of whole milk than the lowest prices charged by the big supermarket chains. --Milk Report (http://www.igf-1-and-milk.com/index.php?s=regulates)

And what's worse, they've got everyone fooled into thinking the mom and pop groceries always charge more for milk, so these great little neighborhood shops lose even more business to the huge conglomerate grocery chains.

Grrrr. :mad:




* Most of the large chains own their own gigantic dairy farms and process their own milk, rather than buy from local/independent farmers. For example, Kroger Supermarket Chain is the fifth largest milk processor in the US, supplying milk to stores across the country, including: City Market, Dillons, Fry's, Food 4 Less, Fred Meyer, King Soopers, QFC, Ralphs and Smith's. This "Wal-Martization" of the industry has caused more than half of our independent dairy farms to close in the last five years or so.

I dont know what their like in America-but here theres very little customer care, its more a conveyer belt, in-out-next.Now that there are so many large stores competing with each other (on Long Island anyway) their profit margin is only between one and two percent. As a result, the only way they can distinguish themselves is through better customer service.

So oddly enough, greed and capitalism have actually made the grocery stores more courteous around here.

Count your blessings for living in Canada.
Not everyone in America can say that.What state do you live in?

I'm pretty sure there are poor people in Canada too...

I'm pretty sure there are poor people in Canada too...

And you can also bet that they are freezing cold too, bored to tears, have mullets and say 'eh'

With the exception of services that have to do with life and death.
That is why we have socialized Fire and Police services and it is why we need socialized health care insurance.

Relying solely on "market forces" for everything is a sure fire recipe for disaster.
we have local police & fire departments, and for a good reason. they're services on a scale that require a government monopoly.

btw-they also fit the requirements of the Militia Act.

What state do you live in?
i'm stuck with him as a neighbor...we're both in MI.

i'm from Flint, and he's in Metro Detroit...oddly, i've seen the worse than he ever will, and i have a better outlook on live.

we have local police & fire departments, and for a good reason. they're services on a scale that require a government monopoly.


That doesn't change the fact they are socialized services because they are too important to leave to greed and "market forces".

oddly, i've seen the worse than he ever will,

How would you know?
You don't know me.


and i have a better outlook on live.

I would not call being more cynical a "better outlook".

I'm pretty sure there are poor people in Canada too...

People in Canada don't go broke from medical expenses like we do here in America where half the personal bankruptcies are due in part to medical expenses.

How would you know?
You don't know me.

what make you think i want to? i lived in Flint most of my life, i've seen what your "thinking" leads to. jail or an early grave.


I would not call being more cynical a "better outlook".

i call not being a whiney little bitch having a better outlook than being a whiney little bitch. only one person between us has worked with their back and has a union card, and it's not you.

People in Canada don't go broke from medical expenses like we do here in America where half the personal bankruptcies are due in part to medical expenses.
no, they stay broke from paying the taxes that pay for free clinic grade care.

what make you think i want to?

Thank you for admitting you are talking out your ass from a position of complete ignorance.
Quit trying to claim you know what I have been through and seen in my life.
You don't know anything.



i call not being a whiney little bitch having a better outlook than being a whiney little bitch.

Then why are you usually such a whiney little bitch?
At least I get out and work to change the world for the better, whereas you just sit around and whine like a bitch.


only one person between us has worked with their back and has a union card, and it's not you.

You are an idiot. You constantly speak from a position of complete ignorance.

Do yourself a favor and STFU.

:thumbs:

no, they stay broke from paying the taxes that pay for free clinic grade care.

There you go again, speaking from a position of complete ignorance.

we have local police & fire departments, and for a good reason. they're services on a scale that require a government monopoly.

btw-they also fit the requirements of the Militia Act.

Market forces only apply when people having the ability to make a choice makes sense - ie the consumer can vote with their wallet. Fire depts and police depts are not something that a consumer is interested in choosing - they just want it available and you want it geographically close.

The scale of services and the requirement of a government monopoly is kind of a meaningless and irrelevant statement to make. They are local because if your house is burning down & you live in New York - you don't want the fire truck driving to your house from Los Angeles.

Seriously. Market economics is a powerful idea, but it's retarded to apply it to everything.