I've been thinking, lately, I have been getting more and more sure in my lack of beliefs. The belief in a supernatural being seems so absolutely silly to me lately. It's just so glaringly obvious to me what role religion fills in society, and while it's a very interesting one, trust me folks, it's a complete and utter delusion. I'd bet my life on it. (Ha...)

What's interesting about it, though, is that religion is a delusion each individual mind create. There are many factors that go into it, but the one overriding factor that makes a religion a religion is answering the question of what happens when we die. That's why religion exists, because most people are too egoistic to accept the fact that when they die, they will simply cease to be. And really, who can blame someone for creating a happy delusion where eternal life (or, in some religions, reincarnation) flows freely from the fountain of youth?

I think that we, as a species, are probably genetically predisposed to be religious. It probably came up a couple tens of thousands of years ago and offered some sort of protective effect, though bear in mind that this is a mere hypothesis. I can say with every confidence, however, that God does not exist. If he does, may he strike down the plane I shall be taking tomorrow morning.

I'll talk to you folks when I get back to Florida.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

No,its just yer young and in great health.
Wait until somethin befalls ya.it mite be simple or more
complex.However,just wait until yer stranded in the dead of Nite
in a really shadowy,naughty part of the big city,and you have
no one,but yerself.
That is when God and his great,unforseen guiding hand,May or
may not decide you are truly in need.
I realize it's corny and geeky for a young fellar to speak and
acknowlwdge God.That is Mankinds great Fall.
It's best to build up some reserve of Godly thinking to
ward off the inevitable.

" No one gets out of Life Alive "
- Hud -

No,its just yer young and in great health.
Wait until somethin befalls ya.it mite be simple or more
complex.However,just wait until yer stranded in the dead of Nite
in a really shadowy,naughty part of the big city,and you have
no one,but yerself.
That is when God and his great,unforseen guiding hand,May or
may not decide you are truly in need.
I realize it's corny and geeky for a young fellar to speak and
acknowlwdge God.That is Mankinds great Fall.
It's best to build up some reserve of Godly thinking to
ward off the inevitable.

" No one gets out of Life Alive "
- Hud -
My lack of faith did not fail me when my mom died. I don't see it reappearing any time soon.

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe other people's beliefs aren't always completely idiotic?

My drill instructor told us at the start of my boot camp that we'd all find God before the training was over. Stupid fuck.

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe other people's beliefs aren't always completely idiotic?
I'd say there was a good bit of time when he was agnostic that he was considering it.

But, there's differing types of beliefs. I personally believe in the power of personality, the scientific method, emotional mastery, and music as key tools to understand the world and thrive in it.

My drill instructor told us at the start of my boot camp that we'd all find God before the training was over. Stupid fuck.
That must be why you dropped out. Wheres the laughy guy with the hammer?

That must be why you dropped out. Wheres the laughy guy with the hammer?
Hah, you can find it by looking at the more link under the smilies, or by typing "lolhit" with colons ( : ) instead of double-quotes.

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe other people's beliefs aren't always completely idiotic?
I didn't say idiotic; that was you. I just find it a very curious behavior that's obviously biologically driven at least to some extent, given that most religion is an entirely illogical belief that some very logical people can have. If it wasn't so widespread, I think you could make the case for it being a mental abnormality, albeit not necessarily deleterious. Kind of like homosexuality, actually. Just this curiosity that happens in a certain amount of the population.

I've been thinking, lately, I have been getting more and more sure in my lack of beliefs.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

Freethinker is Gorge Carlin?
How are you so sure that it comes from each individual? What are you seeing about humanity that helps you make this declaration.

Hah, you can find it by looking at the more link under the smilies, or by typing "lolhit" with colons ( : ) instead of double-quotes.
Cool, thanks Nap.

My drill instructor told us at the start of my boot camp that we'd all find God before the training was over. Stupid fuck.

Yeah.Kinda like the closing scene of - Hud - where young
Lonnie Bannon kinda nods to older Brother Hud Bannon { Paul Newman}
when Hud explains that the ONLY thing his Father gave him when he
needed it most,when goin off to enlist in the Military was whether
he wanted a Mars { Candy } bar,for the bus ride.

I didn't say idiotic; that was you. I just find it a very curious behavior that's obviously biologically driven at least to some extent, given that most religion is an entirely illogical belief that some very logical people can have. If it wasn't so widespread, I think you could make the case for it being a mental abnormality, albeit not necessarily deleterious. Kind of like homosexuality, actually. Just this curiosity that happens in a certain amount of the population.

" illogocal " ...that's it.? That's the crux of yer Disbelief.
Could you kindly please tell me EXACTLY what kinda relief or
contentment you'll get or your Mom got knowing hard scientific
data or exact science like numbers,when at Death's Door.
Now,don't cha just feel really stupid about now.
The purpose of Humanity is not things you and many herein
hold near & dear,like Hard Facts and Proof and things that
you can see & touch.
In point of fact,they're the exact opposite.
There memories,and inner heartfelt longings and splendor in the grass.
There...I just gave you a Big Leap forward into :

Enlightenment

I've been thinking, lately, I have been getting more and more sure in my lack of beliefs. The belief in a supernatural being seems so absolutely silly to me lately. It's just so glaringly obvious to me what role religion fills in society, and while it's a very interesting one, trust me folks, it's a complete and utter delusion. I'd bet my life on it. (Ha...)

What's interesting about it, though, is that religion is a delusion each individual mind create. There are many factors that go into it, but the one overriding factor that makes a religion a religion is answering the question of what happens when we die. That's why religion exists, because most people are too egoistic to accept the fact that when they die, they will simply cease to be. And really, who can blame someone for creating a happy delusion where eternal life (or, in some religions, reincarnation) flows freely from the fountain of youth?

I think that we, as a species, are probably genetically predisposed to be religious. It probably came up a couple tens of thousands of years ago and offered some sort of protective effect, though bear in mind that this is a mere hypothesis. I can say with every confidence, however, that God does not exist. If he does, may he strike down the plane I shall be taking tomorrow morning.

I'll talk to you folks when I get back to Florida.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o


Yeah..i'm not sure if there is a God or not, but "religions" sure are a sham! They will come and go..

" illogocal " ...that's it.? That's the crux of yer Disbelief.
Could you kindly please tell me EXACTLY what kinda relief or
contentment you'll get or your Mom got knowing hard scientific
data or exact science like numbers,when at Death's Door.
Now,don't cha just feel really stupid about now.
The purpose of Humanity is not things you and many herein
hold near & dear,like Hard Facts and Proof and things that
you can see & touch.
In point of fact,they're the exact opposite.
There memories,and inner heartfelt longings and splendor in the grass.
There...I just gave you a Big Leap forward into :

Enlightenment

No, you tried to pull him back into the darj\kness :)
Delusion is the comfort for the weak at heart...

Well, God didn't strike down my plane. Oh well, I'm sure he'll get me next time.

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe other people's beliefs aren't always completely idiotic?

No one said they were idiotic, just irrational.
I don't understand why people don't see how religion is pushed on you by the culture you grew up in. Why do one religion jump at any chance to ridicule another religion as foolish while they are blind to the foolishness of their own? Why do people find the Flying Spaghetti monster such a idiotic concept? It's equally plausible and although he was invented a few years ago instead of 2000+, that shouldn't really make a diference should it? Also why do we find the old religions of the vikings, the greek and indians so silly? They explained their world with even less knowledge and more superstition than todays religion. Is it so hard to see that islam and christianity is just the next generation and is outdated by more knowledge? Hell, why did you stop believeing in santa? His magic is less far fetched than the magic of Jesus, both being fictional characters based on real people.

There are many factors that go into it, but the one overriding factor that makes a religion a religion is answering the question of what happens when we die. That's why religion exists, because most people are too egoistic to accept the fact that when they die, they will simply cease to be. I think that's half the story - the conscious half.

Another major factor seems to be the personification of the impersonal - be it thunder or the entire universe. We have an innate ability to identify other living things, but this ability seems very innacurate and people attribute life-like properties to inanimate stuff all the time. I know I shout "oh come the fuck on" at traffic as though it were a gremlin deliberately clogging up the roads just to annoy me.

I think that's half the story - the conscious half.

Another major factor seems to be the personification of the impersonal - be it thunder or the entire universe. We have an innate ability to identify other living things, but this ability seems very innacurate and people attribute life-like properties to inanimate stuff all the time. I know I shout "oh come the fuck on" at traffic as though it were a gremlin deliberately clogging up the roads just to annoy me.

That is quite natural tho. As the excelent biologist Richard Dawkins is, he explained how our minds and senses are evolved purely to survive in our limited environment. We apply familiar concepts to unfamiliar things and ideas. It actually takes some effort to break away from our banal instincts and go outside our evolutionary box.

Well, God didn't strike down my plane. Oh well, I'm sure he'll get me next time.
Ask God to strike you down when you're by yourself. A plane full of people is just bad. Actually, asking to be killed is bad.

WTF is wrong with you man!?

To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.
--St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274)

Ask God to strike you down when you're by yourself. A plane full of people is just bad. Actually, asking to be killed is bad.

WTF is wrong with you man!?

He's free to strike me down any time...

He's free to strike me down any time...
Thats psychology for ya.

Thats psychology for ya.

How so?
You think I'm taking a huge chance here?

:corn:

Ask God to strike you down when you're by yourself. A plane full of people is just bad. Actually, asking to be killed is bad.

WTF is wrong with you man!?
Well really an almighty being should be able to strike just one person and leave the rest on the plane unharmed. That goes for you too Borg. You bums!

Well really an almighty being should be able to strike just one person and leave the rest on the plane unharmed.
Well yeah, but why?

How so?
You think I'm taking a huge chance here?

:corn:
Yes, but not at dieing, just at being... Never mind.

Yes, but not at dieing, just at being... Never mind.

lol
Just messing with ya.
But do go on :)

No one said they were idiotic, just irrational.
I don't understand why people don't see how religion is pushed on you by the culture you grew up in.
No religion has ever been pushed upon me. I belong to no religion, and I was not raised in any religion either.

No religion has ever been pushed upon me. I belong to no religion, and I was not raised in any religion either.

Wasn't referring to you specifically.
Was making the point that religious people are generally conditioned to be religious by their culture or surroundngs/family. My mom eventually told me santa wasn't real, bt she never told me jesus wasn't real because her mom never did either and so on. It is just an agreed upon delusion passed down in generations until the chain is broken. Thankfully I will not pass it on, and my own children will get a chance to decide for themsleves.

I sort of wish that I had been raised in a religion. I'd like to be sure of my beliefs.

I sort of wish that I had been raised in a religion. I'd like to be sure of my beliefs.

Why would that make you sure?
It is much better making a honest thought through choice of your own...

Why would that make you sure?
It is much better making a honest thought through choice of your own...
I don't know about that. At the moment I feel that I will never be sure of anything as far as spirituality, and that I will be tortured by it forever until I just stop thinking about it to save my own sanity. I'd rather be happy and wrong than unhappy and have the very slight possibility of finding the right answer.

I don't know about that. At the moment I feel that I will never be sure of anything as far as spirituality, and that I will be tortured by it forever until I just stop thinking about it to save my own sanity. I'd rather be happy and wrong than unhappy and have the very slight possibility of finding the right answer.

You are too young to have figured that sorta stuff out, take many years unless you just adopt whatever you've been told. I was 10 years older than you are know before I had worked that bit out on my own, but then I had a hell of a lot of religious conditioning to undo.

It is ok to think of these things, but don't obsess about it, it is not supposed to be simple :)

I'm leaning towards the "get really stoned all the time and forget about it" solution to spirituality right now. Also, I don't want to come to the conclusion that there is no higher power and no afterlife, like you have. I used to consider myself an atheist, but it made me extremely unhappy. I think i should be able to find a belief that doesn't make me extremely depressed and disappointed. I guess if I listen to you or Borg it's not possible though. If there's just nothing after we die then I might as well just die now.

I'm leaning towards the "get really stoned all the time and forget about it" solution to spirituality right now. Also, I don't want to come to the conclusion that there is no higher power and no afterlife, like you have. I used to consider myself an atheist, but it made me extremely unhappy. I think i should be able to find a belief that doesn't make me extremely depressed and disappointed. I guess if I listen to you or Borg it's not possible though. If there's just nothing after we die then I might as well just die now.

I haven't said I belive there is nothing, I just don't agree with the established religions, the monotheistic ones in particular. I have merely come to the conclusion that we cannot and do not know what happens after we die or how the universe came to be. Religion has no right to claim absolute knowledge of this either.

Therefore I am an agnostic and not an atheist...

Therefore I am an agnostic and not an atheist...
Aha. Well, I've also considered myself that too many times in the past. It's probably the most fitting label right now as well. I just can't be satisfied with being unsure I guess.

Aha. Well, I've also considered myself that too many times in the past. It's probably the most fitting label right now as well. I just can't be satisfied with being unsure I guess.

Problem is we don't have certainty, and to be honest, it makes life interesting. Dunno, I've settled with that, maybe because there are so many other areas where I can satisfy my curiosity. That is why I study science :)

Even if religion or theism is just a way to comfort oneself or explain what one cannot explain, I have concluded that I'm not evolved enough to move beyond that need anyways. Congrats to all you atheists who have become better human beings than I am.

Wasn't referring to you specifically.
Was making the point that religious people are generally conditioned to be religious by their culture or surroundngs/family. My mom eventually told me santa wasn't real, bt she never told me jesus wasn't real because her mom never did either and so on. It is just an agreed upon delusion passed down in generations until the chain is broken. Thankfully I will not pass it on, and my own children will get a chance to decide for themsleves.
Prove it.

Woah, don't give up quite yet :)
It is not about being better, it is about meeting the need for an explanation to the questions you have. Some people find religion to be enough, many don't. Many don't even care to ask the question at all. In any case, take your time.

Prove it.

What else could it be? There is no proof it isn't...

The burden of evidence lays with the claim, not with the rest to prove they are wrong. Christians claim Jesus was the son of god, born by a virgin and raised the dead and himself. Now does it make sense that I have to prove it isn't true? Or is it more reasonable to demand that from the people who claim it? This is a classic Russell's Teapot problem. (Wikipedia it if needed)

Congrats to all you atheists who have become better human beings than I am.
And don't you forget it!

Wasn't referring to you specifically.
Was making the point that religious people are generally conditioned to be religious by their culture or surroundngs/family. My mom eventually told me santa wasn't real, bt she never told me jesus wasn't real because her mom never did either and so on. It is just an agreed upon delusion passed down in generations until the chain is broken. Thankfully I will not pass it on, and my own children will get a chance to decide for themsleves.

But,Jesus WAS real.
You can't possibly be that remote.
I mean,I tink there was a Ma & Pa Kettle movie where they had
to go really deep into the backwoods in order to deliever some
Christmas presents to a bunch a hick crackers.
I think they dint even know Christmas existed.
I don't suppose thems was yer Kin,by any chance.?

What else could it be? There is no proof it isn't...

The burden of evidence lays with the claim, not with the rest to prove they are wrong. Christians claim Jesus was the son of god, born by a virgin and raised the dead and himself. Now does it make sense that I have to prove it isn't true? Or is it more reasonable to demand that from the people who claim it? This is a classic Russell's Teapot problem. (Wikipedia it if needed)




It is just an agreed upon delusion passed down in generations until the chain is broken.



You made this claim i thought maybe you had empirical proof. I see you dont.

To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.
--St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274)


Oh ! How can one discuss Religion and not mention the immense
thought of a Thomas Aquinas.
Arguably one of the Premier Theological Philosophers of any Time.
He argued that God was the Author of nature,among many other
brilliant Presuppositions.

What's interesting about it, though, is that religion is a delusion each individual mind create. There are many factors that go into it, but the one overriding factor that makes a religion a religion is answering the question of what happens when we die. That's why religion exists, because most people are too egoistic to accept the fact that when they die, they will simply cease to be. And really, who can blame someone for creating a happy delusion where eternal life (or, in some religions, reincarnation) flows freely from the fountain of youth?

I was watching Ghost hunters, I haven't before but a friend of mine said it was worth checking out. The friend is Wiccan just to clarify.

And life after death seemed to be the entire purpose of their ghost hunts.
I could be wrong but from what little I did get from watching the show, it seemed like they wanted to answer the question, what happens after death and they were trying to do it scientifically. Which kind of made me laugh.
Because everything they did was based on assumptions made from a supernatural perspective.

I'm not an expert in either ghost or scientific methods, but from what I could see the only thing scientific about it was the fact that they were trying to get something on film.

That's a good point, Inviolable. I think that whatever it is that drives us to religion is the same thing that makes us believe in ghosts.

Wasn't referring to you specifically.
Was making the point that religious people are generally conditioned to be religious by their culture or surroundngs/family. My mom eventually told me santa wasn't real, bt she never told me jesus wasn't real because her mom never did either and so on. It is just an agreed upon delusion passed down in generations until the chain is broken. Thankfully I will not pass it on, and my own children will get a chance to decide for themsleves.

Good for you and your kids!

On another note, eternity is a mighty long time. So, what a great god we have, huh? He/She/It puts us on these planet for a mere 70 or 80 years (if you are lucky) ONLY to test us to see if we will follow him/her/it. And if you fail that 80 year test, YOU WILL GO TO HELL FOREVER, forever, for..ever..ever..ever.ver..ver.er.r.r.r.r. (imagine an echo fade to nothing -what is that called anyway). So 70 or 80 years will determine ETERNITY. And that 70 or 80 years is today! A few hundred years ago most people only lived to like 45 or 50. That was it and THEN IT IS ETERNITY!!!!!!
I really hope that God is more reasonable than us weak minded humans.
God is so great that he/she/it can make everything but he/she/it needs us teeny weeny humans to praise him or .............BURN IN HELL FOREVER, forever, for..ever..ever..ever.ver..ver.er.r.r.r.r. (imagine an echo fade to nothing - what is that called anyway).

I'd rather be happy and wrong than unhappy and have the very slight possibility of finding the right answer.You are clearly a very thoughtful person and being a thoughtful person can really suck. Many of us sometimes wish we were one of the brain-dead idiots, happy so long as we have celebrity bullshit on the tv and canned-answers to life's difficult questions.

But I suspect that wouldn't really be you, DF.

You are clearly a very thoughtful person and being a thoughtful person can really suck. Many of us sometimes wish we were one of the brain-dead idiots, happy so long as we have celebrity bullshit on the tv and canned-answers to life's difficult questions.

But I suspect that wouldn't really be you, DF.

Thats funny you say that Blob. I often think how reassuring it must be to be able to stick with the obvious. I guess each coin has two sides.

Thats funny you say that Blob. I often think how reassuring it must be to be able to stick with the obvious. There's no point envying those with no interest in the world beyond who wins Pop Idol. They may be happy but once you have had a single genuine thought in your life there's no way of becoming one.

There's no point envying those with no interest in the world beyond who wins Pop Idol. They may be happy but once you have had a single genuine thought in your life there's no way of becoming one.
You don't know how true that is for some people.

Freedom from the world is the ability to have a genuine thought.
It's not envy it's pity.

That's a good point, Inviolable. I think that whatever it is that drives us to religion is the same thing that makes us believe in ghosts.

I will believe in ghosts way, way, way before I believe in god, at least any god that any religion has put forth. I've actually had personal experiences with ghosts. Now, was I imagining things? Hallucinating? Hearing things? It's a possibility, sure. However there has been extensive, hard scientific evidence to at least suggest that ghosts possibly exist. Not so much for god. I mean sure you can claim that our existence proves god exists, but that is an extremely weak argument from a scientific standpoint, and then there is faith. You don't need proof, just take it all on faith. Whatever gives you that feeling that you're not alone when no one else is around is pretty powerful, if people who have faith truly feel that way about god, but in a non creepy way, then more power to them.

My agnostic views simply stem from the fact that the world and the universe is extensively complex. We only know a fraction of what there is to know. But one thing we don't know is if there is a god or not, that I know for sure (I realize that sentence is totally contradictory, but you know what I mean). I however do not rule out the possibility because of the fact that we know so little. There is no way any religion set forth is right. I would be willing to bet that god is a mathematical equation, before saying hes some sort of all knowing powerful eye in the sky.

I will believe in ghosts way, way, way before I believe in god, at least any god that any religion has put forth. I've actually had personal experiences with ghosts. Now, was I imagining things? Hallucinating? Hearing things? It's a possibility, sure. However there has been extensive, hard scientific evidence to at least suggest that ghosts possibly exist. Not so much for god. I mean sure you can claim that our existence proves god exists, but that is an extremely weak argument from a scientific standpoint, and then there is faith. You don't need proof, just take it all on faith. Whatever gives you that feeling that you're not alone when no one else is around is pretty powerful, if people who have faith truly feel that way about god, but in a non creepy way, then more power to them.

My agnostic views simply stem from the fact that the world and the universe is extensively complex. We only know a fraction of what there is to know. But one thing we don't know is if there is a god or not, that I know for sure (I realize that sentence is totally contradictory, but you know what I mean). I however do not rule out the possibility because of the fact that we know so little. There is no way any religion set forth is right. I would be willing to bet that god is a mathematical equation, before saying hes some sort of all knowing powerful eye in the sky.
On ghost hunters they briefly talked about demons. I dont remember exactly what they said. But if they believe demons are haunting people, wouldnt that put ghost hunting in the realm of religion just a little?

I mean if it's purely from a scientific view point, they wouldnt be labeling anything with a definitive name until they had enough data to give it one that is familiar.

[QUOTE=Blob]You are clearly a very thoughtful person and being a thoughtful person can really suck. Many of us sometimes wish we were one of the brain-dead idiots, happy so long as we have celebrity bullshit on the tv and canned-answers to life's difficult questions.


Why Wish

I will believe in ghosts way, way, way before I believe in god, at least any god that any religion has put forth. I've actually had personal experiences with ghosts. Now, was I imagining things? Hallucinating? Hearing things? It's a possibility, sure. However there has been extensive, hard scientific evidence to at least suggest that ghosts possibly exist. Not so much for god. I mean sure you can claim that our existence proves god exists, but that is an extremely weak argument from a scientific standpoint, and then there is faith. You don't need proof, just take it all on faith. Whatever gives you that feeling that you're not alone when no one else is around is pretty powerful, if people who have faith truly feel that way about god, but in a non creepy way, then more power to them.

My agnostic views simply stem from the fact that the world and the universe is extensively complex. We only know a fraction of what there is to know. But one thing we don't know is if there is a god or not, that I know for sure (I realize that sentence is totally contradictory, but you know what I mean). I however do not rule out the possibility because of the fact that we know so little. There is no way any religion set forth is right. I would be willing to bet that god is a mathematical equation, before saying hes some sort of all knowing powerful eye in the sky.


Obviously you cannot doubt that Humanity & nature exist.
Starting from that presupposition,wood it not follow that
there was probably a beginning or some kind of unique supernatural
creation of sorts.?
Yes,it's easy to believe " Ghosts " exiast because we know Humans exist.
Now how did Humans come about. ? How was DNA created.?
The big bang theory does not take into account Human DNA.

However there has been extensive, hard scientific evidence to at least suggest that ghosts possibly exist.
What?!

My drill instructor told us at the start of my boot camp that we'd all find God before the training was over. Stupid fuck.

Didnt you get kicked out before the training ended?

No.

No.
Im fairly certain i've read that before also.

You're not known for your reading comprehension.

You're not known for your reading comprehension.True, just as everyone knows you're full of shit in everything you say.

:rolleyes: Sure.

You made this claim i thought maybe you had empirical proof. I see you dont.

No, you get it wrong. The claim is made by religion. As it is not founded in reality, it is most likely a delusion.

Good for you and your kids!

On another note, eternity is a mighty long time. So, what a great god we have, huh? He/She/It puts us on these planet for a mere 70 or 80 years (if you are lucky) ONLY to test us to see if we will follow him/her/it. And if you fail that 80 year test, YOU WILL GO TO HELL FOREVER, forever, for..ever..ever..ever.ver..ver.er.r.r.r.r. (imagine an echo fade to nothing -what is that called anyway). So 70 or 80 years will determine ETERNITY. And that 70 or 80 years is today! A few hundred years ago most people only lived to like 45 or 50. That was it and THEN IT IS ETERNITY!!!!!!
I really hope that God is more reasonable than us weak minded humans.
God is so great that he/she/it can make everything but he/she/it needs us teeny weeny humans to praise him or .............BURN IN HELL FOREVER, forever, for..ever..ever..ever.ver..ver.er.r.r.r.r. (imagine an echo fade to nothing - what is that called anyway).

That point only bares any weight if you actually believe in scare propaganda...
Do what we tell you to do all your life, and you'll get 72 virgins when you die. Sounds familiar?

You're not known for your reading comprehension.

I see what you mean...

I've actually had personal experiences with ghosts. Now, was I imagining things? Hallucinating? Hearing things? It's a possibility, sure. Personally I think ghosts are as much mumbo-jumbo as gods.

However you at least appear to sincerely entertain the possibility of being outright wrong about the existence of ghosts. Theists never or rarely admit the same regarding god.

Personally I think ghosts are as much mumbo-jumbo as gods.

However you at least appear to sincerely entertain the possibility of being outright wrong about the existence of ghosts. Theists never or rarely admit the same regarding god.I think most would feel that even questioning His existence is a betrayal. I think that is the real reason why people of faith are so fervent in their stated beliefs.

No, you get it wrong. The claim is made by religion. As it is not founded in reality, it is most likely a delusion.
That's not what you said. You said it was, unequivocably, a delusion. You left no room for doubt. I called you on it. Comprehend that.

I think most would feel that even questioning His existence is a betrayal. I think that is the real reason why people of faith are so fervent in their stated beliefs.
I believe in god, but I don't think that admitting I could be wrong is betrayal. I am an imperfect human and my mind was not created to understand the spiritual or the supernatural. :)

Although I'm not sure I could call myself a theist at the moment. Agnostic might be a better term, but mostly I still say that I believe in god, because I'm almost entirely sure that I do.

[QUOTE=DarkFantasy96]I believe in god, but I don't think that admitting I could be wrong is betrayal. I am an imperfect human and my mind was not created to understand the spiritual or the supernatural. :)


What then WAS yer brain Created to Understand.?
That's like the crux of the matter.

I believe in god, but I don't think that admitting I could be wrong is betrayal. I am an imperfect human and my mind was not created to understand the spiritual or the supernatural. :)Well there's your answer to your current quest for certainty... ;)

That point only bares any weight if you actually believe in scare propaganda...
Do what we tell you to do all your life, and you'll get 72 virgins when you die. Sounds familiar?


that's my point!

On the 72 virgins thing, somebody was telling me that this is not in the Koran. I'm not sure though!

That's not what you said. You said it was, unequivocably, a delusion. You left no room for doubt. I called you on it. Comprehend that.

I assume you mean unequivocally, and that is exaggerating my statement for the sole purpose of making an argument. Delusions is a somewhat abstract term, and in this context means "Psychiatry. a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact." Which fits religion as a perfect textbook example. If you want arguments for this, go to the source, Richard Dawkins, he wrote a brilliant book on the subject.

that's my point!

On the 72 virgins thing, somebody was telling me that this is not in the Koran. I'm not sure though!

Well, I'll ask my muslim friend over christmas :)
But I think you're right, don't think it is in there. But neither is purgatory, so means of control has always been added to religions...

Personally I think ghosts are as much mumbo-jumbo as gods.

However you at least appear to sincerely entertain the possibility of being outright wrong about the existence of ghosts. Theists never or rarely admit the same regarding god.

People used to see ghosts, now they see aliens too, same psychological phenomenon, and well documented too...
A friend of mine told me about a hospital experience involving a ghost, and he fully believe it was. Yet when he tells the story, it could be anything, people just tend to decide what they want a weird experience to be, and it becomes true to them eventually.

I assume you mean unequivocally, and that is exaggerating my statement for the sole purpose of making an argument. Delusions is a somewhat abstract term, and in this context means "Psychiatry. a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact." Which fits religion as a perfect textbook example. If you want arguments for this, go to the source, Richard Dawkins, he wrote a brilliant book on the subject.Unlike you, I mean what i say.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/unequivocably


By your very definition, "a fixed false belief". Prove it.

Unlike you, I mean what i say.

You're just trying to pick a fight, don't you have any sound arguments? Or is word play your only tactic? You people are experts at dodging questions...

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/unequivocably

By your very definition, "a fixed false belief". Prove it.

Lack of proof it is a true belief is a valid scientific argumentation for stating it is false.
For the extensive list of arguments, read the book.

No.


WoW ; Boy oh Boy !
Maybe with a little luck you could master a ONE LETTER :

reply !

WoW ; Boy oh Boy !
Maybe with a little luck you could master a ONE LETTER :

reply !
:rant:

You're just trying to pick a fight, don't you have any sound arguments? Or is word play your only tactic? You people are experts at dodging questions....I'm really not. You're so sure it's a "delusion" because of opinions of other non believers. There is no way to prove or disprove the existence of a "God" unless he/she shows up and reveals themselves. Why use words with such negative connotations when referring to people's faith? You can express doubt without them.

Exactly what do you mean by "you people"?






Lack of proof it is a true belief is a valid scientific argumentation for stating it is false.
For the extensive list of arguments, read the book.It's still not proof. Just opinions about a lack of proof.

Exactly what do you mean by "you people"?
Uh, duh - Haitians.

Uh, duh - Haitians.
Im not haitian.

:rant:

Then again,maybe a really Good Practicing Atheist could
intentionally Post a Reply that wasn't really For or Against,
butts merely in-between like an Oreo cookie Waiting For Godot.
Or God's Milk of Human Kindness.

Then again,maybe a really Good Practicing Atheist could
intentionally Post a Reply that wasn't really For or Against,
butts merely in-between like an Oreo cookie Waiting For Godot.
Or God's Milk of Human Kindness.
I couldnt find a single letter that was close to no.

I couldnt find a single letter that was close to no.

Maybe the symbol for nil.
An O with a slash thru it.

I'm really not. You're so sure it's a "delusion" because of opinions of other non believers. There is no way to prove or disprove the existence of a "God" unless he/she shows up and reveals themselves. Why use words with such negative connotations when referring to people's faith? You can express doubt without them.

Existence of a "god" and the validity of a religion are two very different issues. I am talking about religion here, specifically Christianity, but it would include Islam and Judaism too.

A god/deity cannot be disproven at the ultimate level, like who (if any) initiated bigbang or set the laws of physics. Arguing on the level of religious claims like miracles, rising from the dead and virgin birth and so on is a different matter entirely. These claims are easily subject to study and scientific evidence. For example prayer has been shown to have no effect whatsoever in a number of studies. Virgin birth is biologically impossible (for humans) and no one has ever been documented to return from the dead, not even Elvis.

As for my own opinions, I had reached my conclusion long before I read Dawkin's book, but his book put a whole lot of meat on the bones.

It's still not proof. Just opinions about a lack of proof.

As I've already stated a number of times, the burden of evidence lays with those who make the claims. The point that 2000 years of Christianity have yet to leave any evidence the claims are true is about as good as a proof for it being a delusion as it is possible to get. What do you suggest is needed if that is not enough? Finding the disclaimer page missing at the front of the bible stating that "All characters portrayed in this book are purely fictional"?

WoW ; Boy oh Boy !
Maybe with a little luck you could master a ONE LETTER :

reply !

Don't see what made your reply so much better :)

Im not haitian.
What are you then...Cuban? If not, then I've gotta be close. ;) :D

Existence of a "god" and the validity of a religion are two very different issues. I am talking about religion here, specifically Christianity, but it would include Islam and Judaism too.

A god/deity cannot be disproven at the ultimate level, like who (if any) initiated bigbang or set the laws of physics. Arguing on the level of religious claims like miracles, rising from the dead and virgin birth and so on is a different matter entirely. These claims are easily subject to study and scientific evidence.* For example prayer has been shown to have no effect whatsoever in a number of studies. Virgin birth is biologically impossible (for humans) and no one has ever been documented to return from the dead, ^not even Elvis."?Im not saying there is a "God". Just a possibility.
Intellectually i dont believe. Emotionally, I have doubts, but hold onto the possibility.


*But there have been documented cases of people being healed from incurable diseases and afflictions. I know this doesnt make it a sign of existence of "God", just another example of how there are things science really cant understand.




^No Elvis resurrections? Now THAT is sacrilege. :)










As I've already stated a number of times, the burden of evidence lays with those who make the claims. The point that 2000 years of Christianity have yet to leave any evidence the claims are true is about as good as a proof for it being a delusion as it is possible to get. What do you suggest is needed if that is not enough? Finding the disclaimer page missing at the front of the bible stating that "All characters portrayed in this book are purely fictional"?You're asking for people to "prove" their faith. It would'nt be called faith if it could be proven. It would be called scientific fact. Can anyone rationally define faith in a creator? Withouth sounding like a loon to men/women of science and those without faith?

What are you then...Cuban? If not, then I've gotta be close. ;) :DDefinately getting warmer. :)

Im not saying there is a "God". Just a possibility.
Intellectually i dont believe. Emotionally, I have doubts, but hold onto the possibility.

*But there have been documented cases of people being healed from incurable diseases and afflictions. I know this doesnt make it a sign of existence of "God", just another example of how there are things science really cant understand.

It has never happened under controlled conditions tho.
Of course there are things science can't explain, but that doesn't mean we wont be able to, nor does it suggest it was magic.

You're asking for people to "prove" their faith. It would'nt be called faith if it could be proven. It would be called scientific fact. Can anyone rationally define faith in a creator? Withouth sounding like a loon to men/women of science and those without faith?

I am not asking for people to prove their faith, but people don't stick to faith. They make claims that are provable, yet never proven.

Anyway, as for the delusion. Looking at all religions, their social aspects, their development and the psychological and emotional factor it is hard to come to any other conclusion. I have experienced it from the inside, now I look ar it from the outside. All I see is a lot of wishful thinking and no substance.

Women get the last word in every argument. Anything a man says after that is the beginning of a new argument.
To your credit, you understand women well.

To your credit, you understand women well.

lol
Found it on a quote site and decided it was the truth :)

It's not true... One of my favorite tactics when an argument starts with my boyfriend is to just shut up. I just stop talking. Eventually he does the same, and then we forget about it.

It's not true... One of my favorite tactics when an argument starts with my boyfriend is to just shut up. I just stop talking. Eventually he does the same, and then we forget about it.


that works to a degree,if it's something stupid I feel that may get out of hand,yeah,it's better to just leave it alone cause it's really not worth it to make a huge issue out of something incredibly stupid.

that works to a degree,if it's something stupid I feel that may get out of hand,yeah,it's better to just leave it alone cause it's really not worth it to make a huge issue out of something incredibly stupid.
Exactly. Almost everything I get angry about is something completely dumb, and if I don't say anything I'll forget about it in like an hour anyways. :p

Exactly. Almost everything I get angry about is something completely dumb, and if I don't say anything I'll forget about it in like an hour anyways. :p


very few things keep me angry long enough. I'm the weird one in my family when it comes to anger,all my other siblings can carry an argument for days on end long after I would have given up. In the grand sceme of things it's pointless and usually ends up hurting someone,and for what?