Turn someone’s generality into an absolute. For example, if someone makes a general statement that Americans celebrate Christmas, point out that some people are Jewish and so anyone who thinks that ALL Americans celebrate Christmas is stupid. (Bonus points for accusing the person of being anti-Semitic.)
Turn someone’s factual statements into implied preferences. For example, if someone mentions that not all Catholic priests are pedophiles, accuse the person who said it of siding with pedophiles.
Turn factual statements into implied equivalents. For example, if someone says that Ghandi didn’t eat cows, accuse the person of stupidly implying that cows deserve equal billing with Gandhi.
Omit key words. For example, if someone says that people can’t eat rocks, accuse the person of being stupid for suggesting that people can’t eat. Bonus points for arguing that some people CAN eat pebbles if they try hard enough.
Assume the dumbest interpretation. For example, if someone says that he can run a mile in 12 minutes, assume he means it happens underwater and argue that no one can hold his breath that long.
Hallucinate entirely different points. For example, if someone says apples grow on trees, accuse him of saying snakes have arms and then point out how stupid that is.
Use the intellectual laziness card. For example, if someone says that ice is cold, recommend that he take graduate courses in chemistry and meteorology before jumping to stupid conclusions that display a complete ignorance of the complexity of ice.Scott Adams - seven rules of internet debate.

How do you know that God isn't really just an extended metaphor?
Aha! This will probably be ignored by almost everyone in the discussion, but I think you've hit upon something extremely interesting here. God may indeed be a metaphor, perhaps for something that is within us. Maybe, as I've often suspected, God is more of a guiding force or energy in the universe, rather than a "being". (Think of the brahman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman) in Hinduism.) This is an idea I've often toyed with, and I think it's more likely than God as an old man sitting up in the sky telling us what to do...

Can a person consider themselves a Christian and NOT believe that everything in the Bible is literally true?

ie, Noah's Ark, Jonah and the Whale, the creation of life, the Garden of Eden?

Can a person who considers themselves a Christian realize that maybe these tales were merely a poetic and figurative way of explaining the unknowable?

Can a person who is of a scientific bent still think that Jesus Christ actually existed and preached kindliness?

Can a person consider themselves a Christian and NOT believe that everything in the Bible is literally true?

ie, Noah's Ark, Jonah and the Whale, the creation of life, the Garden of Eden?

Can a person who considers themselves a Christian realize that maybe these tales were merely a poetic and figurative way of explaining the unknowable?

Can a person who is of a scientific bent still think that Jesus Christ actually existed and preached kindliness?
I certainly think it's possible. :)

...could someone, at the time that the book of Genesis was written, have understood evolution?

...could someone, at the time that the book of Genesis was written, have understood evolution?
Nope. See, you know what I'm talking about. Even if God came down and told them everything about evolution... They would be absolutely baffled.

And yet, by your own admission, it's not to be taken literally. How do you know that God isn't really just an extended metaphor?

Now you're saying something I can agree with, Borg. Although 'extended metaphor' isn't a phrase I'd use to describe my 'vision' of what God is... neither is a 'little ole man with a gray beard, sitting in a golden chair, judging his handiwork.'

I believe in a supreme being... but I'll be the first to admit that I don't know what God looks like. The term God, in my mind at least, means a higher power and manifests itself in many, many ways in different religions. I also believe we earthly beings are not equipped to understand all the secrets of the universe... try as we might to explain them scientifically.

Will we ever understand? According to the Bible, we will. But not in this life... maybe not even in this dimension!

Accepting the unexplainable is what faith is all about. Demanding proof that God does NOT exist is no more ridiculous than demanding proof that he does. But it sure does seem to rile people up, doesn't it?

;)
SMW

And what was it I don't know again??
Well, for starters, I'd say anything that requires a working knowledge of remedial earth science or biology.
Remember all I said was that I didn't see your point in the correlation of islands still forming and God's 6 day creation.
Whether or not you see my "point" is immaterial; obvious logic aside (and barring all scientific discovery), that's a patently preposterous claim to make, and by virtue of that fact alone, I'm not gonna sit here and justify my position to someone who doesn't "get" it. GET IT???
Interesting to me....you had to ask me if I bought it. Like that mattered in the way you were going to answer me.
Well, firstly, it helped me determine who I was talking to, and secondly, in my initial post, I referenced a myriad of logical fallacies in the bible, and lo and behold, you manage to come along and pick ONE comment (which you couldn't see the irony in) to impugn my entire position. Sorry, hun - but that doesn't validate your argument. You're the one who believes in pixy dust and Jeeezus. I'm not the one who needs to defend my interpretation of reality here - YOU ARE.

On that note, you must be from southern Illinois.
Can you give me the answer and just pretend I'm on the side your following?? I'm curious to know what that answer would be.
"Curious", eh? Someone who takes the bible as an exercise in "truth" is, by nature, anything but.

Catch up, Prae... we already discussed that very few people take the Bible literally. Really, dear, you're usually much more on top of discussions than this.

:)
SMW
No, you catch up. And I quote, "But yes I agree it was done in 6 days...however long that day was."

FYI, that came before your comment.

Well, for starters, I'd say anything that requires a working knowledge of remedial earth science or biology.

Whether or not you see my "point" is immaterial; obvious logic aside (and barring all scientific discovery), that's a patently preposterous claim to make, and by virtue of that fact alone, I'm not gonna sit here and justify my position to someone who doesn't "get" it. GET IT???

Well, firstly, it helped me determine who I was talking to, and secondly, in my initial post, I referenced a myriad of logical fallacies in the bible, and lo and behold, you manage to come along and pick ONE comment (which you couldn't see the irony in) to impugn my entire position. Sorry, hun - but that doesn't validate your argument. You're the one who believes in pixy dust and Jeeezus. I'm not the one who needs to defend my interpretation of reality here - YOU ARE.

On that note, you must be from southern Illinois.

"Curious", eh? Someone who takes the bible as an exercise in "truth" is, by nature, anything but.


I've studied a lot about biology and such. Even dated a guy who majored in Chemistry and minored in biology and then went on to get his phd. Speaking of him...he told me once that studying science is WHY he believes in God. Must be crazy pixie dust in his head huh?

And yes I picked one point you spilled about in your long winded post. I really don't have time to pick at EVERYTHING. I post when I can and what I can.

Southern IL I must be!!! Again everyone thinks I'm from Chicago.

How confusing!

:rolleyes:

Oh and I don't NEED to defend my belief in God. I wasn't trying to do that at all. All I said was I didn't agree with your point. And you turned it into a discuss about what I believed.

I dont push my beliefs. You asked.

The Bible's trustworthiness has been proven by the mere fact that it's survived through thousands of years of....
guilt tripping people into paying for their supposed salvation if they don't wanna spend all eternity in a fiery pit while being consumed by flesh-eating demons and maggots. Yeah...it's stood the test of time, all right. :rolleyes: Gee, I wonder why.
Now you may not believe what it says, but you can't deny it exists.
No one denies the book exists.

guilt tripping people into paying for their supposed salvation if they don't wanna spend all eternity in a fiery pit while being consumed by flesh-eating demons and maggots. Yeah...it's stood the test of time, all right. :rolleyes: Gee, I wonder why.

No one denies the book exists.

That's YOUR interpretation, dear. Not exactly what the good book says. But please... by all means, feel free to paraphrase if it makes you feel less threatened.

BTW, it was you who was talking about the religious buffet the other day, wasn't it? Just curious... I thought that was rather profound.

I've studied a lot about biology and such.
I meant beyond 5th grade.
Speaking of him...he told me once that studying science is WHY he believes in God. Must be crazy pixie dust in his head huh?
Believing in God is fine. Taking the bible seriously isn't.
I really don't have time to pick at EVERYTHING.
You couldn't if you wanted to.
Southern IL I must be!!!
Uhhh, bible thumper = you're a townie who most likely lives somewhere near Carbondale.

I also believe we earthly beings are not equipped to understand all the secrets of the universe... try as we might to explain them scientifically.

Accepting the unexplainable is what faith is all about. Demanding proof that God does NOT exist is no more ridiculous than demanding proof that he does. But it sure does seem to rile people up, doesn't it?
These things are exactly what we've been trying to tell you. :rolleyes: So you couldn't defend your position, and now you completely change it. Good tactic.

I've studied a lot about biology and such. Even dated a guy who majored in Chemistry and minored in biology and then went on to get his phd. Speaking of him...he told me once that studying science is WHY he believes in God. Must be crazy pixie dust in his head huh?
Uhmm, I'm pretty sure Prae also believes in God, or at least isn't an atheist.

These things are exactly what we've been trying to tell you. :rolleyes: So you couldn't defend your position, and now you completely change it. Good tactic.

LOL, good twist, DF. Although nobody even MENTIONED 'these things' and the only position I was defending was that there is NO proof there is NO God.

But like I told Prae, if it makes you feel better to believe that story, more power to ya.

;)
SMW

I meant beyond 5th grade.

Believing in God is fine. Taking the bible seriously isn't.

You couldn't if you wanted to.

Uhhh, bible thumper = you're a townie who most likely lives somewhere near Carbondale.


Nope much more Northern.

Keep trying though. Maybe you will get something right.

And I really dont think I've ever thumped my bible.

:@@:

Uhmm, I'm pretty sure Prae also believes in God, or at least isn't an atheist.


Really?

Never would have guessed that at all.

Thanks for the info.

LOL, good twist, DF. Although nobody even MENTIONED 'these things' and the only position I was defending was that there is NO proof there is NO God.
Oh please. We all know that there is no proof either way. Every single person in this thread knows that, except apparently you, because you claim that you have PROOF that God exists. That was one of the positions you were taking, correct?

Oh and I don't NEED to defend my belief in God. I wasn't trying to do that at all.
I don't want you to. I want you to defend your stance on the bible.
All I said was I didn't agree with your point.
The point you were making about our planet's continued evolution (which I didn't think was a concept you "creationist types" were into, but I digress), pretty much flies in the face of logic when the "almighty" snapped it out in whopping 6 days. There's a logical disconnect here, and nothing we've discovered scientifically bolsters your position. Notta. Zilch. As a matter of fact, quite the contrary, actually - WE'VE PROVEN IT TO BE A LOAD OF SHIT, and you're STILL bandying it about as something you believe. So you tell me....who's not making sense of shit here?

You must've really liked those science classes, eh?
And you turned it into a discuss about what I believed.
Noooo, by questioning such a simple concept, you announced it.

because you claim that you have PROOF that God exists. That was one of the positions you were taking, correct?
Yes, it was. Her proof??? The Bible. It was a hugely powerful and compelling argument, actually.

Nope much more Northern.
You must be a Bloomington gal.

Can a person consider themselves a Christian and NOT believe that everything in the Bible is literally true?

ie, Noah's Ark, Jonah and the Whale, the creation of life, the Garden of Eden?

Can a person who considers themselves a Christian realize that maybe these tales were merely a poetic and figurative way of explaining the unknowable?

Can a person who is of a scientific bent still think that Jesus Christ actually existed and preached kindliness?
One could, but then Christianity loses its status as a supernatural religion, and merely becomes a spiritual philosophy. One could no longer claim Christianity is the correct religion, and they would be forced to acknowledge that all the other religions are just as valid as theirs is. Not very Christian.

You must be a Bloomington gal.
My mom was born in Bloomington.

One could, but then Christianity loses its status as a supernatural religion, and merely becomes a spiritual philosophy. One could no longer claim Christianity is the correct religion, and they would be forced to acknowledge that all the other religions are just as valid as theirs is. Not very Christian.

Not very FUNDAMENTALLY Christian, no.

Not very FUNDAMENTALLY Christian, no.
Christianity is a monotheistic religion at it's very core. You would be denying Jesus' divinity, the trinity, angels, all that stuff would merely become the stuff of legend. Allegory. It's the kind of belief you'd likelier find at your local Unitarian chapter, than your current church, if you do go, that is.

Christianity is a monotheistic religion at it's very core. You would be denying Jesus' divinity, the trinity, angels, all that stuff would merely become the stuff of legend. Allegory. It's the kind of belief you'd likelier find at your local Unitarian chapter, than your current church, if you do go, that is.
That's not true. She never said anything about denying the trinity, angels, or Jesus' divinity. All she said was that someone can be a Christian and consider that many of the stories in the Bible are allegory, and that someone can be a "scientific" person and still believe in Jesus.

Jesus' divinity rests on the fact that he did all those things the Bible says he did. If you take the parts of the Bible that are inconvenient to believe in in this day and age, and slot them into an inferior "poetical" classification, then to believe in Jesus as the son of God becomes but so much fluff. It's a little like the teacher telling all her kids that they're special. If everyone's special, no one is. There's no teeth. No proof. A little of what SMW says is truth. Religious proselytizers have been using the stories in the Bible to cause enough fear and awe in people to get them to convert for centuries. They use all that myth and legend and take it seriously. The only reason there's so many Christians is because of the efforts of all those proselytizers. Without them, we'd all still be pagans. But what rendova is saying is that Christians shouldn't take it seriously. All of that theological crap is based on the Bible. You have to take it seriously, otherwise it all falls down.

Christianity has to take it's monotheism seriously, and the only claim to legitimacy it has is by believing in the stories of the Bible as not merely spiritual teachings, but historical fact. Otherwise nobody can take it seriously.

I politely disagree, Nappy. And I didn't say anything about Jesus' deeds. I believe that those are meant to be taken literally. Ren referred to stories in the Old Testament, not those about Jesus. In fact, I think it's pretty obvious which parts of the Bible are literal and which are figurative. For instance, when Jesus tells the parable about the prodigal son, it is in fact a parable - that means it's figurative. Are you saying that Christians who think the parables are figurative (and they are) are denying the divinity of Jesus? That's a very silly argument.

(P.S. - Interpreting something as figurative doesn't mean that you aren't taking it seriously.)

Well when I say, "not take seriously," I'm saying, not claiming as truth. The Bible says a whole bunch of stuff that is clearly meant to be taken for truth. Rendova seems to be arguing that none of the stuff that the Bible claims as true is actually, literally, historically true. She also agreed with me when I told her of the implications of such a stance. I'll go with you on Jesus' parables. They're not meant to be taken for truth. But the walking on water thing, healing the sick, all of that, God turning people into salt, needs to be taken for truth. But rendova seems to not find that necessary. You can't say that Jesus is the son of God, believe in that literally, and base that on the fact that Jesus was a really cool guy and said really cool stuff. Either it happened or it didn't. Nor can you believe in God as the all-mighty universal, jealous figure He is, without taking the claims of Him in the Old Testament as truth.

It's all or nothing. That's why I have so much trouble taking Christians seriously, because of the sheer ridiculousness of it all.

To put it simple, you can be christian and not take the whole old testament literally, but you would have troubles defending your faith if you didn't take the new testament literally. If you don't believe in the divinity of christ you are by definition not a christian.

Just got this link by email from Richard Dawkins and pals...
http://richarddawkins.net/article,2025,THE-FOUR-HORSEMEN,Discussions-With-Richard-Dawkins-Episode-1-RDFRS

Watch the first couple of minutes of the first video at least, they talk about offended religious people.

You must be a Bloomington gal.


You're way off again.

Care for another try? Or are you bored with it yet?

I don't want you to. I want you to defend your stance on the bible.

The point you were making about our planet's continued evolution (which I didn't think was a concept you "creationist types" were into, but I digress), pretty much flies in the face of logic when the "almighty" snapped it out in whopping 6 days. There's a logical disconnect here, and nothing we've discovered scientifically bolsters your position. Notta. Zilch. As a matter of fact, quite the contrary, actually - WE'VE PROVEN IT TO BE A LOAD OF SHIT, and you're STILL bandying it about as something you believe. So you tell me....who's not making sense of shit here?

You must've really liked those science classes, eh?

Noooo, by questioning such a simple concept, you announced it.


Well I dont need to defend that either. And I doubt you really care THAT much on what I think so we'll just let it rest.

I've never looked to science for a reason to see how the world began. It doesn't matter to me what you think of me or how many times you think the bible has been proven wrong. I still believe in it and always will. If that makes me stupid in your opinion then oh well. All you are to me is some words typed on the internet. Maybe you shouldn't take it so seriously yourself. It makes you seem uptight. Unless you just like your panties in a bunch.

To put it simple, you can be christian and not take the whole old testament literally, but you would have troubles defending your faith if you didn't take the new testament literally. If you don't believe in the divinity of christ you are by definition not a christian.

That's 100 % correct.
I personally believe in the divinity of Jesus of Nazareth . Therefore, this makes me a Christian. :)

Here's my 'vision' of how God fits into our lives... very loosely stated, because, as we've already established, very little can be PROVEN beyond a resonable doubt.... and I'm certainly no scholar of theology.

But, what if:

There IS an entity that's responsible for life as we know it. For grins, let's call it GOD. Maybe God's mission was to establish life where none has existed before. Using planet earth as an example, what if God placed that first little cell that later, thru evolution, became mankind. Human beings walked upright and continued to progress by forming clans, then societies and cities and in general... became civilized people. All according to God's 'plan' for life here on earth.

So then, God determines mankind has evolved sufficiently to need some rules to live by if they were to prosper and thrive, so somehow, what we now call 'religious teachings' were imparted to the societies via some method we can't comprehend. I've always envisioned it as someone flying over in a plane (OK, so I might've been drunk the first time I envisioned that... but nonetheless, it stuck with me), metaphorically 'dropping instructions' all over the middle east. Whether it was by 'divine inspiration' or actual tablets of writing... doesn't really matter. The thing is... RULES for living were given to the people of this planet. It took over 1000 years and many, many authors and many, many long hours of work before there was finally a BIBLE issued. At the same time, and in the same general area... other societies were compiling their own 'rules' based on their understanding of God's instructions. That's how we ended up with so many different religions... not everybody was 'on the same page.' One thing most religions agree on, however, is that first line of our 'instructions'... IN THE BEGINNING, GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH..." A metaphor for describing how life started. I believe differences in religion are OK with God... as long as the basic concept of there actually existing a GOD is adhered to.

While the Bible was being compiled, God sent Jesus here to help teach mankind how to live according to God's wishes. A little later, after Jesus was crucified, mankind changed the calendar from BC to AD to mark the beginning of a new era for citizens of earth. An era in which we had a set of written instructions to live by and the life of Jesus while he was on earth to use as an example. God 'knew' not everyone would follow the rules, and that was OK... even though strict punishments for NOT following the rules was included in the Bible. Nobody's ever gotten struck down for disobeying one of the ten commandments to my knowledge. However, to this day MOST of the world still believes what's written in the Bible and strives to live up to those instructions.

I don't think God is a man or a woman... or even a 'human being' who's limited to breathing oxygen and staying 'grounded' thanks to gravity. I believe God is much more sophisticated than that... and I also believe we are not meant to comprehend the 'meaning of life'. Only to live it. If you follow the teachings of the Unity Church, you might think there are actually multiple 'phases of life' existing on this planet right this very minute... but in different 'dimensions' that none of us can understand. I read once that these 'planes' exist in harmony the same way radio waves exist in the same space without running into each other. Except, of course, for that very infrequent occurrence when someone claims to have seen a UFO... or a ghost... or some other 'unnatural' vision, like a bright light in a tunnel at the moment of death.

OK, I know this is some pretty far-out stuff and I'd never try to take any of it to the bank. But it does describe how I see God's role in our lives. And while I don't claim to understand it, I certainly respect and appreciate God's power.

Anybody else care to offer their description of how we all got from that first cell to this message board? I'd be very interested in your version.

:)
SMW

Here's my 'vision' of how God fits into our lives... very loosely stated, because, as we've already established, very little can be PROVEN beyond a resonable doubt.... and I'm certainly no scholar of theology.

But, what if:

There IS an entity that's responsible for life as we know it. For grins, let's call it GOD. Maybe God's mission was to establish life where none has existed before. Using planet earth as an example, what if God placed that first little cell that later, thru evolution, became mankind. Human beings walked upright and continued to progress by forming clans, then societies and cities and in general... became civilized people. All according to God's 'plan' for life here on earth.

So then, God determines mankind has evolved sufficiently to need some rules to live by if they were to prosper and thrive, so somehow, what we now call 'religious teachings' were imparted to the societies via some method we can't comprehend. I've always envisioned it as someone flying over in a plane (OK, so I might've been drunk the first time I envisioned that... but nonetheless, it stuck with me), metaphorically 'dropping instructions' all over the middle east. Whether it was by 'divine inspiration' or actual tablets of writing... doesn't really matter. The thing is... RULES for living were given to the people of this planet. It took over 1000 years and many, many authors and many, many long hours of work before there was finally a BIBLE issued. At the same time, and in the same general area... other societies were compiling their own 'rules' based on their understanding of God's instructions. That's how we ended up with so many different religions... not everybody was 'on the same page.' One thing most religions agree on, however, is that first line of our 'instructions'... IN THE BEGINNING, GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH..." A metaphor for describing how life started. I believe differences in religion are OK with God... as long as the basic concept of there actually existing a GOD is adhered to.

While the Bible was being compiled, God sent Jesus here to help teach mankind how to live according to God's wishes. A little later, after Jesus was crucified, mankind changed the calendar from BC to AD to mark the beginning of a new era for citizens of earth. An era in which we had a set of written instructions to live by and the life of Jesus while he was on earth to use as an example. God 'knew' not everyone would follow the rules, and that was OK... even though strict punishments for NOT following the rules was included in the Bible. Nobody's ever gotten struck down for disobeying one of the ten commandments to my knowledge. However, to this day MOST of the world still believes what's written in the Bible and strives to live up to those instructions.

I don't think God is a man or a woman... or even a 'human being' who's limited to breathing oxygen and staying 'grounded' thanks to gravity. I believe God is much more sophisticated than that... and I also believe we are not meant to comprehend the 'meaning of life'. Only to live it. If you follow the teachings of the Unity Church, you might think there are actually multiple 'phases of life' existing on this planet right this very minute... but in different 'dimensions' that none of us can understand. I read once that these 'planes' exist in harmony the same way radio waves exist in the same space without running into each other. Except, of course, for that very infrequent occurrence when someone claims to have seen a UFO... or a ghost... or some other 'unnatural' vision, like a bright light in a tunnel at the moment of death.

OK, I know this is some pretty far-out stuff and I'd never try to take any of it to the bank. But it does describe how I see God's role in our lives. And while I don't claim to understand it, I certainly respect and appreciate God's power.

Anybody else care to offer their description of how we all got from that first cell to this message board? I'd be very interested in your version.

:)
SMW


All I know is that I didn't evolve from a monkey. Now Warrior probably did but I know i didn't

*wink*

All I know is that I didn't evolve from a monkey. Now Warrior probably did but I know i didn't

*wink*
But so what if you did? You are not a monkey now.

That's what she thinks.

But so what if you did? You are not a monkey now.



But so what if I didn't?

But so what if I didn't?
Makes no difference to me whether you did or not.

That's my point. Maybe some people don't like evolution because they don't like to think they evolved from monkeys. Whether it's true or not.

Makes no difference to me whether you did or not.

That's my point. Maybe some people don't like evolution because they don't like to think they evolved from monkeys. Whether it's true or not.


Nah, I have nothing against monkeys. Just dont think I evolved from one.

;)

My mom was born in Bloomington.
Well, if it's any consolation, I went to school there. :D

Have you ever been there?

Well I dont need to defend that either. And I doubt you really care THAT much on what I think so we'll just let it rest.

I've never looked to science for a reason to see how the world began. It doesn't matter to me what you think of me or how many times you think the bible has been proven wrong. I still believe in it and always will. If that makes me stupid in your opinion then oh well. All you are to me is some words typed on the internet. Maybe you shouldn't take it so seriously yourself. It makes you seem uptight. Unless you just like your panties in a bunch.
Fair enough. Oh, and just for the record, I don't think you're stupid - just indoctrinated.

Umm, Peoria, perhaps??? :)

Fair enough. Oh, and just for the record, I don't think you're stupid - just indoctrinated.

Umm, Peoria, perhaps??? :)


nada

All I know is that I didn't evolve from a monkey. Now Warrior probably did but I know i didn't

*wink*

It is not a choice you know :)
Same as you cannot choose to not be the daughter of your parents...

And evolution doesn't say we evolved from monkeys, just that we have common ancestry, as all mammals do.

It is not a choice you know :)
Same as you cannot choose to not be the daughter of yoru parents...

And evolution doesn't say we evolved from monkeys, just that we have common ancestry, as all mammals do.


I never said I chose anything but if you need that for an agrument go for it.

:rolleyes:

OK, I know this is some pretty far-out stuff and I'd never try to take any of it to the bank. But it does describe how I see God's role in our lives. And while I don't claim to understand it, I certainly respect and appreciate God's power.

That's all good, but why have your own well invented explanation when 4-5 centuries of research has delved deep into all those questions and come up with many more answers?

Anybody else care to offer their description of how we all got from that first cell to this message board? I'd be very interested in your version.

From the first cell to here is well explained by evolution, and the main principles of it are proven and well documented. How exactly the path winds its way through the history isn't known in detail yet, but that is simply due to the enormous amount of time and information to gather and make sense of. We still know a whole lot of the steps on the way tho.

Where the first cell came from is another story, there are many good theories, but a human life is too short to do any good experiments on something the nature probably had a billion years to accomplish.

As for the meaning of life, it is exactly what we make it. From natures point of view, we are merely survival machines for our genes, nothing more. However we have a consciousness who grants us the ultimate power in the universe, control over our own destiny. That gives us a conscious purpose and a driving force through life.

I never said I chose anything but if you need that for an agrument go for it.

:rolleyes:

What are you saying then?

What are you saying then?


Nothing anymore.

Nothing anymore.

Okai than ;)

Okai than ;)
Don't worry, Angelina - it's on par with everything else she's said thus far.

Don't worry, Angelina - it's on par with everything else she's said thus far.

On one hand I'm fine with people not wanting or caring to know the answer to such questions, in the other hand I'm always curious why people choose not to or even worse disregard the last few centuries of knowledge and make up their own truth or adopt a pre scientific one.

I love to observe and understand people, but that last part is just too hard to relate to. Never understood it...

Okai than ;)


Sorry it's just an old conversation. I was up for it yesterday. Today I'm not.

And I doubt it means much to anyone what I think or believe in anyway. At least I dont know why it would. I'm just words on a computer.

:flowers:

Sorry it's just and old conversation. I was up for it yesterday. Today I'm not.

And I doubt it means much to anyone what I think or believe in anyway. At least I dont know why it would. I'm just words on a computer.

:flowers:

No you're not, that's just silly, you're a real person like everyone else :hug:

On one hand I'm fine with people not wanting or caring to know the answer to such questions, in the other hand I'm always curious why people choose not to or even worse disregard the last few centuries of knowledge and make up their own truth or adopt a pre scientific one.

I love to observe and understand people, but that last part is just too hard to relate to. Never understood it...

I think part of the issue here is that yesterday we were discussing whether or not there is a God. That's actually a much more important question than whether or not man evolved from apes. *yawn* In fact, if there was no God, who created the apes??

:lolhit:

No you're not, that's just silly, you're a real person like everyone else :hug:


I dont know...Nappy thinks I'm a monkey.

:lolhit:

I think part of the issue here is that yesterday we were discussing whether or not there is a God. That's actually a much more important question than whether or not man evolved from apes. *yawn* In fact, if there was no God, who created the apes??

:lolhit:

The discussion whether or not there is a god can never lead anywhere. So it is pointless. However the existence of the Jewish/Christian and/or Muslim God is a completely different subject, and is much more open for debate.

I dont know...Nappy thinks I'm a monkey.

:lolhit:

Nappy doesn't make the rules :)

My lack of faith did not fail me when my mom died. I don't see it reappearing any time soon.

I question a lot of this too..
Where was god when I was growing up and things were happening..then again where was he when I lost my baby...then again where was he when my mom died then a year later my real dad...where is he when all this is happening is someone elses life more important then mine... I wonder...

The discussion whether or not there is a god can never lead anywhere. So it is pointless. However the existence of the Jewish/Christian and/or Muslim God is a completely different subject, and is much more open for debate.

I thought we made wonderful progress yesterday in coming to an agreement that there just might be something out there more powerful than mankind. Nobody posted a link to any pics, though... so if that's what you're waiting for, you're outta luck!

But on the bright side, nobody posted a link to anything proving God does NOT exist either... so there's definitely light at end of the tunnel!

;)
SMW

I question a lot of this too..
Where was god when I was growing up and things were happening..then again where was he when I lost my baby...then again where was he when my mom died then a year later my real dad...where is he when all this is happening is someone elses life more important then mine... I wonder...

The exact same things happen, good or bad, to people regardless of faith...
Trying to defend god on those issues is a huge fault in religion, it is the main area where it completely lose credibility as a philosophy in my opinion.

I thought we made wonderful progress yesterday in coming to an agreement that there just might be something out there more powerful than mankind. Nobody posted a link to any pics, though... so if that's what you're waiting for, you're outta luck!

here you go ;)

http://vienna.metblogs.com/archives/images/2007/09/flying-spaghetti-monster.jpg

I question a lot of this too..
Where was god when I was growing up and things were happening..then again where was he when I lost my baby...then again where was he when my mom died then a year later my real dad...where is he when all this is happening is someone elses life more important then mine... I wonder...
Woo, you got to read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misotheism

Miso... now that term makes me chuckle.

The exact same things happen, good or bad, to people regardless of faith...
Trying to defend god on those issues is a huge fault in religion, it is the main area where it completely lose credibility as a philosophy in my opinion.

Yes I am learning that slowly...
We are all responsible for ourselves..
NO one can prove he is real or not real.. it comes down to yes faith and belief..
You can make anything believable if you try hard enough.. there are all kinds of things that can be seen as a sign or miracle..I just don't have it in me any more.. to many bad things have happened to believe that there is such a person or thing....

On one hand I'm fine with people not wanting or caring to know the answer to such questions...
First, they have to possess the requisite intellect to qualify.
...in the other hand I'm always curious why people choose not to or even worse disregard the last few centuries of knowledge and make up their own truth or adopt a pre scientific one.
It's mind boggling, isn't it? Personally, I have nothing against someone believing in "god" or a higher power, for I think putting your faith in something "greater" than yourself fosters humility, but when it comes to organized religion, I feel it's flat-out dangerous. By nature, those institutions stifle science while they create intolerance and ill will amongst people, and none of which is good for humanity or prosperity, period. Organized religion could wind up ending the world some day.
I love to observe and understand people, but that last part is just too hard to relate to. Never understood it...
I fully agree.

The discussion whether or not there is a god can never lead anywhere. So it is pointless. However the existence of the Jewish/Christian and/or Muslim God is a completely different subject, and is much more open for debate.
BINGO!

Woo, you got to read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misotheism

Miso... now that term makes me chuckle.

Thanks Dio...

sign me up..I know so jaded hey..but that is how I feel when it comes to god and all god like stuff.

First, they have to possess the requisite intellect to qualify.

I feel it is a bit unfair to call it intelligence, many people simply don't care much for the subject, and is happy with any explanation that work as long as they don't have to think about it. If you have no interest in knowing much about it, that is quite fine. Try discussing sports with me :)

It's mind boggling, isn't it? Personally, I have nothing against someone believing in "god" or a higher power, for I think putting your faith in something "greater" than yourself fosters humility, but when it comes to organized religion, I feel it's flat-out dangerous. By nature, those institutions stifle science while they create intolerance and ill will amongst people, and none of which is good for humanity or prosperity, period. Organized religion could wind up ending the world some day.

God as a philosophy is fine, as a guide to life is simple, as the sole purpose of life is dangerous. In my opinion at least. I do realize it is convenient to just adopt the belief system of your culture, most do to one degree or the other, but the majority (at least in my country) wouldn't "take it to the bank" as SMW called it.

What irks me is when people do things in the name of god or are hypocritical and use god as a fall back...Not everyone is like that.. there is good and bad in everything and everyone per se...but I just find it hard to believe.. Most people only want to believe when it suits their fancy and they are at a wall..

Like I knew this guy he said he was very religious and had a strong faith in god.. he and I would get into arguments or for me they were discussions but he would some times take offense.. but he would drink..party.. carry on with women..swear and did things in his past that were stealing and abusive.. but he still claimed a strong religious belief...

Yet he doesn't believe in Santa LOL
:lolhit:

I feel it is a bit unfair to call it intelligence...
Probably, but I just can't imagine NOT CARING. I'm sorry, but if I run across someone who tells me they don't value learning, or even worse yet, someone who tells me they're fine with relying on creationism in lieu modern science, then you know what - I've got no sympathy for that person; he or she is a moron, end of story.

What irks me is when people do things in the name of god or are hypocritical and use god as a fall back...Not everyone is like that.. there is good and bad in everything and everyone per se...but I just find it hard to believe.. Most people only want to believe when it suits their fancy and they are at a wall..

Like I knew this guy he said he was very religious and had a strong faith in god.. he and I would get into arguments or for me they were discussions but he would some times take offense.. but he would drink..party.. carry on with women..swear and did things in his past that were stealing and abusive.. but he still claimed a strong religious belief...

Yet he doesn't believe in Santa LOL
:lolhit:



probably not along the same lines shorty,but I had this neighbor about 5-6 years ago,she married a guy who was in his 60's and she knew he could never have anymore kids. One day she tells me that she "heard" God tell her while she was in bed that it would be alright with him for her to cheat on her husband to have a baby. She used that as her excuse to commit what is a sin in the bible. She not only did it once....but 2 more times,all in the name of her faith and that god wanted her to cheat on her husband just so she could have kids.:rolleyes:

I'm one of those on the fence about God and a higher power and being. I used to believe in all that jazz,but after the last few years I found myself questioning things like you did shorty. Why would a god take a baby from his parents before he even got a chance to draw a breath. Why would a god allow my grandfather to get through a very stressful surgery and be alright only to take him a few days later. I know it's all a persons personal opinion and belief,but for me,I am still asking myself alot of questions about religon.

Probably, but I just can't imagine NOT CARING. I'm sorry, but if I run across someone who tells me they don't care about learning, or even worse yet, tells me they're fine with relying on creationism in lieu modern science, then you know what - I've got no sympathy for that person; he or she is a moron, end of story.

Agreed...worse are the ones that want to convert you and they can't even properly articulate what they are peddling.. If you can't practice what you preach, stop preaching...it kinda falls on deaf ears..

probably not along the same lines shorty,but I had this neighbor about 5-6 years ago,she married a guy who was in his 60's and she knew he could never have anymore kids. One day she tells me that she "heard" God tell her while she was in bed that it would be alright with him for her to cheat on her husband to have a baby. She used that as her excuse to commit what is a sin in the bible. She not only did it once....but 2 more times,all in the name of her faith and that god wanted her to cheat on her husband just so she could have kids.:rolleyes:

I'm one of those on the fence about God and a higher power and being. I used to believe in all that jazz,but after the last few years I found myself questioning things like you did shorty. Why would a god take a baby from his parents before he even got a chance to draw a breath. Why would a god allow my grandfather to get through a very stressful surgery and be alright only to take him a few days later. I know it's all a persons personal opinion and belief,but for me,I am still asking myself alot of questions about religon.


(((MICHELLE)))

Bad things will happen to good people and good things will happen to bad people.

I think everyone has been on the fence before. At least it means you feel something.

:bighug:

Probably, but I just can't imagine NOT CARING. I'm sorry, but if I run across someone who tells me they don't value learning, or even worse yet, someone who tells me they're fine with relying on creationism in lieu modern science, then you know what - I've got no sympathy for that person; he or she is a moron, end of story.

Oh, true, people who believe in creationism after reviewing the evidence, are either not very bright or very irrational.

Michael Shermer said something on this issue: "Many smart people believe things they came to believe for non-smart reasons."

Michael Shermer said something on this issue: "Many smart people believe things they came to believe for non-smart reasons."
That's a really well put way to say that. I like it.

That's a really well put way to say that. I like it.

Just bought a book he wrote too, hope he has more stuff like that :)

Title is "The Science of Good and Evil"

What a surprise... yet another religious thread turning into nothing but hateful, insulting posts directed at Christians. Way to go, guys. By now, we should expect nothing less, eh?

What a surprise... yet another religious thread turning into nothing but hateful, insulting posts directed at Christians. Way to go, guys. By now, we should expect nothing less, eh?
*yawn*

What a surprise... yet another religious thread turning into nothing but hateful, insulting posts directed at Christians. Way to go, guys. By now, we should expect nothing less, eh?
Yes, those poor, persecuted Christians.

Oh, true, people who believe in creationism after reviewing the evidence, are either not very bright or very irrational.

Michael Shermer said something on this issue: "Many smart people believe things they came to believe for non-smart reasons."

I've been reading this thread with not just a little bit of amusement, but I think you're stepping over the line when you start insulting those of us who DO believe in God AND creationism, by saying we're not very bright. I have my opinion of those who don't believe in God, but I try not to insult you or anybody else who don't believe as I do. Talk about a 'holier than thou' attitude, you've definitely got that.

I have my reasons for believing in God, just as you have your reasons for questioning that belief. I think you might be a little more careful with the insults, though.

I've been reading this thread with not just a little bit of amusement, but I think you're stepping over the line when you start insulting those of us who DO believe in God AND creationism, by saying we're not very bright. I have my opinion of those who don't believe in God, but I try not to insult you or anybody else who don't believe as I do. Talk about a 'holier than thou' attitude, you've definitely got that.

I have my reasons for believing in God, just as you have your reasons for questioning that belief. I think you might be a little more careful with the insults, though.
She said creationists, not theists. If you're religious but accept evolution, you seem to be fine in her book. It's those mental lightweights who refuse to accept evolution--much like the Catholic Church persecuting Galileo for daring to say that the Earth goes 'round the Sun--that she's spearing.

Yes, those poor, persecuted Christians.

You forgot not-very-bright, irrational, moronic Christians who believe in noodlemen. If you're gonna join in the game, get your teammates terms right.

It's really a shame that people can't hold an intelligent, respectful discussion here without it escalating into hateful name calling. Maybe it's because at least one of the mods chooses to jump in at the first hint of discourse and add fuel to the fire? Ya think?

:rolleyes:

She said creationists, not theists. If you're religious but accept evolution, you seem to be fine in her book. It's those mental lightweights who refuse to accept evolution--much like the Catholic Church persecuting Galileo for daring to say that the Earth goes 'round the Sun--that she's spearing.

"mental lightweights" -- there's another one. Way to go, Borg.

So now you consider Angelina an expert on the subject?

What a surprise... yet another religious thread turning into nothing but hateful, insulting posts directed at Christians. Way to go, guys. By now, we should expect nothing less, eh?

Speaking for me...and only me.

Religion is a shame.. I don't believe as I have never had a reason to trust or believe..once bitten twice shy...God has given me no reason to put faith in him...
BUT I do not prosecute those who do believe what I do hate is when they try and push it on me.. Everyone is entitled to believe in what they might want to...That includes me... if I choose not to believe that is my cross to bare....

She said creationists, not theists. If you're religious but accept evolution, you seem to be fine in her book. It's those mental lightweights who refuse to accept evolution--much like the Catholic Church persecuting Galileo for daring to say that the Earth goes 'round the Sun--that she's spearing.

It doesn't matter to me if I'm fine in her book or not. She said people who believe in creationism aren't very bright. I called her on that statement.

Speaking for me...and only me.

Religion is a shame.. I don't believe as I have never had a reason to trust or believe..once bitten twice shy...God has given me no reason to put faith in him...
BUT I do not prosecute those who do believe what I do hate is when they try and push it on me.. Everyone is entitled to believe in what they might want to...That includes me... if I choose not to believe that is my cross to bare....

Religion and faith are two different things, Shorty. I do not like organized religion at all. I had a belly full of it long ago - it was because of the people in organized religion, though...not because I lost faith in God. Man will always disappoint us. God is ever faithful in my life.

Speaking for me...and only me.

Religion is a shame.. I don't believe as I have never had a reason to trust or believe..once bitten twice shy...God has given me no reason to put faith in him...
BUT I do not prosecute those who do believe what I do hate is when they try and push it on me.. Everyone is entitled to believe in what they might want to...That includes me... if I choose not to believe that is my cross to bare....

I would guess you mean religion is a SHAM, Shorty. Lots of people feel that way. Mostly people who've never thanked God for their many blessings, but are quick to blame him when things go wrong.

Nobody ever said life was fair. We all have our own crosses to BEAR. And we all choose whether to go it alone... or ask God for help.

Life is all about choices, ain't it?

:)
SMW

It doesn't matter to me if I'm fine in her book or not. She said people who believe in creationism aren't very bright. I called her on that statement.
They obviously do not think critically. I would argue that the average IQ of creationists might not be that different than the rest of the population, but they are certainly lacking in critical thinking capacity.

Religion and faith are two different things, Shorty. I do not like organized religion at all. I had a belly full of it long ago - it was because of the people in organized religion, though...not because I lost faith in God. Man will always disappoint us. God is ever faithful in my life.

I can respect that kimi... and for you I am glad you can have that...
For me though I have a hard time because for me to have faith does that not mean I have to give some validity to god being real.. I don't know if I can do that...Why would god let so many terrible things happen in the world if he is real..how do you have faith when a person in the man of god can do such horrific things to people.. spare the rod, spoil the child.. that is twisted...

They obviously do not think critically. I would argue that the average IQ of creationists might not be that different than the rest of the population, but they are certainly lacking in critical thinking capacity.

And anybody who doesn't agree isn't taking Critical Thinking 101 in community college.

:lolhit:

It doesn't matter to me if I'm fine in her book or not. She said people who believe in creationism aren't very bright. I called her on that statement.

You quoted me, but didn't read it...
I said:

"Oh, true, people who believe in creationism after reviewing the evidence, are either not very bright or very irrational."

It's really a shame that people can't hold an intelligent, respectful discussion here without it escalating into hateful name calling. Maybe it's because at least one of the mods chooses to jump in at the first hint of discourse and add fuel to the fire? Ya think?
I wish you would stop bringing up the fact that Borg is a mod, as if that requires him to follow a stricter set of rules than other posters. We all follow the same rules, and mods can engage in the same activities as regular members as well as their official duties.

You quoted me, but didn't read it...
I said:

"Oh, true, people who believe in creationism after reviewing the evidence, are either not very bright or very irrational."

Proof, please.

Speaking for me...and only me.

Religion is a shame.. I don't believe as I have never had a reason to trust or believe..once bitten twice shy...God has given me no reason to put faith in him...
BUT I do not prosecute those who do believe what I do hate is when they try and push it on me.. Everyone is entitled to believe in what they might want to...That includes me... if I choose not to believe that is my cross to bare....


I bet God has given you a lot of reasons...you have just chosen to see only the bad.

And yes you are entitled to believe what you want but thats not how it is here. If you believe in God you're just wrong.

I like being wrong though!

Proof, please.

Proof of evolution? Google it.
If you believe the creationism nonsense over real science, you are either irrational or don't understand the subject.

And yes you are entitled to believe what you want but thats not how it is here. If you believe in God you're just wrong.

I like being wrong though!
Most of the people participating in this thread are NOT atheists, just so you know. I certainly believe in God, Angelina is agnostic, etc.

And anybody who doesn't agree isn't taking Critical Thinking 101 in community college.

:lolhit:
Okay, I admit that I'm at a loss as to this response. So, my response: Huh?

Proof of evolution? Google it.
If you believe the creationism nonsense over real science, you are either irrational or don't understand the subject.
I hate to say it, but this is true. However, Angelina, you know that you can believe in God AND believe in evolution, right? I think you're assuming that every theist (at least every Christian) here is an evolution denier.